Re: Intelligent Agents......
Hi Alain, Thanks for the synopsis. How would you see a very basic agent as being able to accomplish all of what you said, in RunRev? Do you typically need self-modifying code? If so, aren't RR's script limits somewhat of a problem. Also, how do IA's differ with Neural Nets? Expert Systems? Genetic Algorithms? I'd be interested in seeing a very simple IA implemented to do something (find the best price online for a product) using RR. Do you know of such an example? Thanks, Chipp ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: Intelligent Agents......
Hi Alain, Many Thanks too, from Paris, for your previous post. I'm associating me to the Chipp's second question : how could we gohead with good practices to design and code to life a small team of intelligent agents in MC/Rev ? There is, among some other great books about Artificial Life, an usefull title, unfortunally only available in french, i'm refering all the time, in about this matter : Vie Artificielle by Jean-Philippe Rennard. Editions Vuibert Informatique. 2002, 408 pages. Le 15 févr. 04, à 09:40, Chipp Walters a écrit : Hi Alain, Thanks for the synopsis. How would you see a very basic agent as being able to accomplish all of what you said, in RunRev? Do you typically need self-modifying code? If so, aren't RR's script limits somewhat of a problem. Also, how do IA's differ with Neural Nets? Expert Systems? Genetic Algorithms? I'd be interested in seeing a very simple IA implemented to do something (find the best price online for a product) using RR. Do you know of such an example? Thanks, Chipp Bien cordialement, Pierre Sahores 100, rue de Paris F - 77140 Nemours [EMAIL PROTECTED] GSM: +33 6 03 95 77 70 Pro: +33 1 41 60 52 68 Dom: +33 1 64 45 05 33 Fax: +33 1 64 45 05 33 Inspection académique de Seine-Saint-Denis Applications et SGBD ACID SQL (WEB et PGI) Penser et produire delta de productivité ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: Intelligent Agents......
Pierre Sahores a *crit : I'm associating me to the Chipp's second question : how could we gohead with good practices to design and code to life a small team of intelligent agents in MC/Rev ? Same interest here... There is, among some other great books about Artificial Life, an usefull title, unfortunally only available in french, i'm refering all the time, in about this matter : Vie Artificielle by Jean-Philippe Rennard. Editions Vuibert Informatique. 2002, 408 pages. As for books on that topic, I can recommend : http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679743898/qid=1076866332/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-3097674-2174534?v=glances=books a bit verbode at times, but a good survey and http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0262631857/qid=1076866054/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-3097674-2174534?v=glances=books great introduction - a few years back I tried to reproduce some of the experiments described in that book with OMO and MC... Best, JB ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: Intelligent Agents......
Hello, How would you see a very basic agent as being able to accomplish all of what you said, in RunRev? This is one of those 64,000 dollar questions of AI, but let me just allude, for now, to several MC features that could be useful to us : * MetaCard multi-platform deployment (serverside as well as clientside) makes it a very good candidate for widely distributed agent-based achitectures. As good as Java for what we need, but a *LOT* less complicated than Java for most people. * MC's web-savvy-ness makes it an excellent for crafting web-based agents. This is *extremely* relevant given the importance and spread of the Internet. Every agent based system currently in the running, and all those that will follow, need to be web-savvy. There's no get around this constraint. Without the web, you're out of the game from the very start. * In case some of you don't know, MC's web-savvy-ness is not limited to getting URLs. It goes as deep as creating your own web protocol with [secure] sockets. Instead of HTTP or FTP, we could have an agent protocol; something like this : agent://ufp.uqam.ca/dispatcher The proverbial HTTP protocol was designed to accomodate the many needs of hypertext. FTP was optimized for quick file transfers. And so on... Our AGENT protocol would be optimized for knowledge-exchange and agent-coordination. * The try .. on error.. control structure which allows a handler to catch its own errors and execute meta-code that can fix the problem, allowing the agent to continue with its on-going mission. As a bonus, it also optimizes performance because it always tries to do the best thing first handles exceptional stuff exceptionally. No un-necessary if .. then .. pre-processing. * MC features GREP, which allows agents to smartly parse informally-structured information. Locating links inside web pages with the help of GREP is a cinch, which means that it s very very easy to create a hyper-bot, with MC, that traverses the web as easily as any web-indexing bot can. * Several people on this list have crafted some XML-RPC stuff from within MC. I am presently seeking some help in this regard. Ian Gordon was kind enough to point me in the right direction, albeit I've not had enough time to follow up on it yet. My development team is about to embark on the open-source development of some XML-RPC capabilities for MetaCard, including compatibility with the blogger API. With the latter our agents will be able to inter-operate with blogs, wikis, and other opensource wares that are very hot right now. In general, XML-RPC capability will allow us to send Remote Procedure Calls to any program that supports XML-RPC, e.g. *LOTS* Do you typically need self-modifying code? Not necessarily. On the one hand, self-modifying code is so dangerous that most operating systems don't allow em to do this. On the other hand, life and intelligence are self-modifying... it's what gives these 'systems' their strength, you might say. I don't have any easy answer[s] for this issue [yet] ... except one, perhaps. We script the agents so that their 'thinking' is data-driven, and their behavior determined at runtime. In plain english, we script the hooks, but all of the [operational] info is stored in external files, fetched by URL, etc. Only these external sources change; not the program itself. If so, aren't RR's script limits somewhat of a problem. Yes. That's why an open source (LGPL) alternative to the MC engine, e.g. FreeCard, is still a crucial project for the xCard community. Also, how do IA's differ with Neural Nets? Expert Systems? Genetic Algorithms? Neural Nets, Expert Systems, Genetic Algorithms are some of the ways that cognitive scientists have attempted to model intelligence with computers. They each have their merits and their shortfalls. None are as effective as we would like them to be. But there is no need to *choose* one at the expense of the others. Each agent's internals are irrelevant at the social level. One agent can be an expert system, another implemented as a neural net, etc. At the social level, where the agents interact with each other, a diversity of implementations is even desirable, because then the agents could collaborate in such a way that they complement each other, e.g. the shortfalls of one agent systemically compensated for by the different strengths of the other agents. I'd be interested in seeing a very simple IA implemented to do something (find the best price online for a product) using RR. Do you know of such an example? I have a HyperCard-based example of a forward-chaining rule-based inference engine. It's very very simple to understand and to use; so much so that you may not see how ths is different from traditional scripting. Here is the URL just in case your interested : http://pan.uqam.ca/cgi-bin/usemod/wiki.pl?Electronics Are we having fun yet ? ;-)) -- I am. Alain F The UFP guy __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance:
Re: Intelligent Agents......
I apologize in advance for the length of my post! I've been following the AI discussion with GREAT interest. I've always wanted to write some server based software using metacard that would control a simulation that teams of 8 people on separate computers on a network would interact with. AI is not necessarily mandatory but the more complex the program, the cooler the simulation would be. Specifically, this: Years ago, when I was a 5th grade teacher, we took our kids to the Museum of Science and Industry in Tampa, FL (MOSI) and they had a space ship simulator - the kids dressed up in pseudo astronaut type outfits, like flight suits, that fit on over their clothes, and then they went into this room that looked like the bridge on the Enterprise, in the sense that it had different workstations that did different things. Kids paired up and they wore headphones with microphones. Each station had a set of directions... One station operated a robotic arm that was outside the spaceship and you could see it out the window (really it was in a closet set up to look like the surface of the moon, with a robotic arm. Instead of a closet door, there was a door with a window in it, and the door was worked into the wall so that you didn't know it was a door.) Each station did something different, and all stations had controls and monitors. Over your headphones, mission control would tell you to do certain tasks, and the card instructions told you how to do them. You and your partner had to accomplish the tasks. It was AWESOME. It was also expensive. At the time, pretty much all of the stations were Apple IIGS computers. And mission control was a separate room, manned by 4 people - they'd be talking to the teams in their mics and switching between teams and they used several Macintosh computers to monitor the progress of the teams. And those 4 people had to be on their toes, obviously, because the kids would do unpredictable things - mistakes they had not anticipated. It left a huge, lasting impression on me, because it was educational and it was extremely fun! It was learning and playing and acting and just about the coolest thing I'd ever seen as a teacher. I thought about how cool it would be to be able to put something like that together, but obviously it was too expensive. Fast forward to now. For a couple of years I've thought about how cool it would be to write software that would do something similar to what MOSI had. On one level, it could be done purely as entertainment - get 6 people on six computers in one lab, get six people on six computers in another lab, and they're each on a ship. Naturally they'd do battle, hiding from each other behind planets, and whatnot. Each station would have directions, and each team would have a Captain. To be a captain, you'd need to participate in each position at least once and achieve a minimum score - the server program would track the response time and decision making of each person and assign a score for that position. The person with the highest score would be the Captain, though you could work out some other system. The server program would throw in random elements like suddenly appearing hostile ships and whatnot. This would be an OUTSTANDING project for some of our seniors to put together - writing the code, designing the stations, filming video to be triggered by the server program when a hostile ship shows up out of nowhere (You know, wearing an alien mask and screaming We will DESTROY your SHIP into the camera.) What could be more fun? OR I could see writing something more like the original MOSI simulator, and selling a kit with the software installers for Mac or Windows. That would make money but would not be as much fun. Anyway, Alain's post got me thinking of how the server software might operate... Great discussion here. I think everything I stated above could be done in MetaCard (or Revolution.) -- :) Richard MacLemale Network Administrator J. W. Mitchell High School ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
Re: Intelligent Agents......
Hello Richard MacLemale and y'all, I've been following the AI discussion with GREAT interest. Excellent, we seem to be generating a groundswell! :)) I've always wanted to write some server based software using metacard ... For years now, it's been possible to create server-side CGI programs with MetaCard (and other xCards too). But our agent idea takes this much further. Imagine P2P MC programs that communicate via the internet, with other [MC] clients that support XML, XML-RPC and blogger API. ... that would control a simulation that teams of 8 people on separate computers on a network would interact with. This will indeed be do-able with the [agent] software we're using and developing. Why not! The essence of it is that we will have the ability to coordinate MC pgms via the web. All kinds of distributed architectures will become possible. AI is not necessarily mandatory but the more complex the program, the cooler the simulation would be. Agreed. You don't necessarily need AI to do it, albeit it might be a big plus when it comes to modelling the systemic impacts of the interactions of all the players. Specifically, this: Years ago, when I was a 5th grade teacher, we took our kids to the Museum of Science and Industry in Tampa, FL (MOSI) and they had a space ship simulator Very interesting! :)) One station operated a robotic arm that was outside the spaceship and you could see it out the window... Each station did something different. All stations had controls monitors. Long ago, I scripted some automation stuff with the HC Serial Port Toolkit (for HyperCard). The toolkit was basically an XCMD to control one/both the serial ports. Does MetaCard or Rev have a similar XCMD to control the serial ports of various computer hardware (PC and Mac), while maintaining cross-platform compatibility? If not the *serial* port, then perhaps another port? (USB, for example). The point, of course, is that with this XCMD (or whatever) we could script automation applications. It was AWESOME. Sounds like a b-l-a-s-t indeed! :)) It was also expensive. It will still be expensive if and when it is implemented as a coordinated set of MetaCard programs, but at least the programming will be cheap, which is not negligeable in these ambitious types of projects. You still need the stations (cheaper these days), the location, the robotic stuff, as well as all the audiovisual material. Don't be discouraged by this, however. Forge ahead! they used several Macintosh computers to monitor the progress of the teams. It would be interesting to find out whether they were using HyperCard for their scripting. ;-) And those 4 people had to be on their toes, obviously, because the kids would do unpredictable things - mistakes they had not anticipated. This is where AI might be helpful. It left a huge, lasting impression on me, because it was educational and it was extremely fun! It was learning and playing and acting and just about the coolest thing I'd ever seen as a teacher. I am sure students of many ages might be thrilled with such an extremely fun way to learn. :) I thought about how cool it would be to be able to put something like that together, but obviously it was too expensive. Using an xCard makes every project seem do-able! ;-) Fast forward to now. For a couple of years I've thought about how cool it would be to write software that would do something similar to what MOSI had. Do it! :) On one level, it could be done purely as entertainment ... Good way to get *funding*. ;-) the server program would track the response time and decision making of each person and assign a score for that position. Another area where AI might be helful : user modeling. The server program would throw in random elements like suddenly appearing hostile ships and whatnot. Or just random in appearance, in order for the teacher to spike the game towards situations where learning will take place [optimally]. This would be an OUTSTANDING project for some of our seniors to put together - writing the code, designing the stations, filming video to be triggered by the server program when ... Are you in a position, as teacher, to locate and create such apprenticeships? Can you put such a team together? What could be more fun? Especially for Trekkies! :)) OR I could see writing something more like the original MOSI simulator, and selling a kit with the software installers for Mac or Windows. That would make money but would not be as much fun. Making money is important too. You choose what is best for you. Personally, I'm inclined to release EVERYTHING that I craft as open-source (LGPL), resorting instead to contracts to earn my living as a value-added consultant. The kicker: I'm increasingly successful at persuading my clients to pay me for my work but to release the results to the open-source community; [strategic] wares and all. It is in their best interest as well
Re: Intelligent Agents......
I have a HyperCard-based example of a forward-chaining rule-based inference engine. It's very very simple to understand and to use; so much so that you may not see how ths is different from traditional scripting. Here is the URL just in case your interested : http://pan.uqam.ca/cgi-bin/usemod/wiki.pl?Electronics Alain, any chance your stack (and/or the accompanying stack on Neural Nets) be converted to RR? I'm mostly on PC and don't have HC. I don't know how much trouble it would be, but if it's easy... Are we having fun yet ? ;-)) -- I am. I'm too. Chipp ___ metacard mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/metacard
