[meteorite-list] Information about Randsburg iron meteorite

2005-09-17 Thread Pelé Pierre-Marie
Hello to the List.

For my DVD Encyclopedia of Meteorites, I'm searching
for information about this new iron.

I need the following information : 
- weight (in kg)
- classification, analysis (including % in Ni, Fe...)
- circumstances of find
- US state where it was found or kept

I thank you in advance for your help.

Best regards,

Pierre-Marie PELE
www.meteor-center.com






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Re: [meteorite-list] One Find, Two Astronomers: An Ethical Brawl

2005-09-17 Thread Sterling K. Webb
Hi, Doug,

It's clear you experience great sympathy for Ortiz.
But I caution you to examine the evidence closely. The
analogy you suggest for the Sterling meteorite hunter
is not quite accurate nor apt.

I hope you like lots of links, 'cause that's what
we have here. Initially, suspicion fell on Jean-Claude
Pele, because he hacked the Yale SMARTS site for the
SMARTS pointing information for K40506A that same day
(July 26). He even posted the SMARTS log information
on the Yahoo Minor Planet Mailing List, but after
2003EL61 was announced, and a complete ephemeris of
K40506A:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mpml/message/15142
and
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mpml/message/15143
and
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mpml/message/15144
and
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mpml/message/15145

People were immediately suspicious. The next
message reply asks Where'd you get this data??!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mpml/message/15147
and Pele tells him how he hacked it:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mpml/message/15149
Here is where he got them. These are the SMARTS observing logs.
http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/ANDICAM/Logs/2005/Jul/20050703.log
http://www-astro.mps.ohio-state.edu/ANDICAM/Logs/2005/Jan/20050125.log
http://www-astro.mps.ohio-state.edu/ANDICAM/Logs/2005/Jan/20050126.log
http://www-astronomy.mps.ohio-state.edu/ANDICAM/Logs/2005/Jan/20050127.log
http://www-astronomy.mps.ohio-state.edu/ANDICAM/Logs/2005/May/20050505.log

Here's his protestation that he wasn't the thief:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mpml/message/15283
and he gets Brian Marston (MPC) to clear him. Obviously,
he does not regard using these logs to make a discovery
to be harmless, but is desperately concerned to establish
that HE DID NOT do such a thing nor aid any one else to
do it.

The complete MPML posts were re-posted to Freelists
by Marco Langbroek, a member of this list, if you want to
see them all:
http://www.freelists.org/archives/fmo/07-2005/msg00082.html

Pele's innocent of discovery. He wasn't him. It was
Ortiz and Co., using the IAA computer:
http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/planetlila/ortiz/
the same IAA computer used to report Ortiz' discovery.

The SMARTS site was not secured nor password
protected, nor is it now. Here's the SMARTS Consortium
website URL:
http://www.astro.yale.edu/smarts/

It's very open, but obviously intended for the use
of the members of the Consortium. You can even access their
UNIX directory list:
http://www.astro.yale.edu/smarts/smarts13m/

There is no attempt to conceal the observing logs.
On the bottom left are links to the nightly logs. And
through the directory link you can get to the ccd
processing logs as well.

For example, here's the URL to the discovery
night, or Brown's first observation of K40506:
http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/ANDICAM/ObsLogs/2004/May/
Click on 20040506 and the log will download.
Of course it isn't called K40506A until later,
but it's in there somewhere...

The name K40506A isn't code as you called it,
Doug. It's a field ID number for a thing that has no name
and is being referenced for the first time; that's all.
The number is merely the year,month,day of first sighting.
Brown gave out that ID number in 2004, when he told
the AAU that he would report on it at their September
2005 meeting with this notice:
http://www.aas.org/publications/baas/v37n3/dps2005/320.htm

Teasing all this out was not easy. Yes, it was
(unintentionally) accessible, but it is difficult and
would yield usefull information only with a lot of work.
You'd have to want it pretty bad, need it, in fact.

Brown was too naive. Also, he doesn't seem to
have been aware that Google indexes EVERYTHING,
and that you could do what actually was done to him.
He said:
It's true that the information was available
without breaking into any sites. It's also
true that sometimes I don't lock the door to
my house. I hope that people don't think it's
therefore OK to come in and take my stuff.
http://www.internetnews.com/xSP/article.php/3526451

I have no idea why you think Brown is such a
plotter, like his not criticizing Ortiz earlier, so
he can criticize him more later. That's paranoid,
Doug, really. Nor why you think his congratulations
to Ortiz were not sincere? They were unqualified
and open. He had no suspicions at this point because
he was unaware that the observing logs had been
accessed by anybody outside SMARTS. As for your
suggestion that the log accesses are faked, Brown
would have to know in advance when Ortiz would
announce, an impossibility pretty much, don't you
think?

As you can tell, GOOGLE is the key here. Without
it, connecting the AAU notice with the observing logs
and the ccd processing logs (they are crucial too because
they identify K40506A in the field coordinates), both of
which are on-line, are useless to a competitor.

As for envy and resentment, does that justify
stealing somebody's else's observations? If Ortiz
actually 

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2005-09-17 Thread Meteoriteshow
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[meteorite-list] cut links

2005-09-17 Thread Meteoriteshow
Dear All,

Some of the links appearing in my previous post have probably been cut... If 
you cannot re-build them, please contact me off-list
and I will send you all necessary information.

Kindest regards,

Frederic Beroud
http://www.meteoriteshow.com
IMCA member # 2491 (http://www.imca.cc/)

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[meteorite-list] re: One Find, Two Astronomers: An Ethical Brawl

2005-09-17 Thread Marco Langbroek

Hi Sterling, Doug et al.,

This is rapidly becoming a highly convoluted history now, and I urge everyone to 
be very careful with damning judgements on either Ortiz or Brown. Initialy, I 
thought (based on the information provided about logged IP's etc.) that things 
were very wrong. Thinking it over and separating facts from assumptions, I 
however started to realize that scenario's were perfectly plausible which would 
clear Ortiz et al. from fraud attempt accusations.


In fact, this is what I wrote early yesterday in a private message to A/CC 
editor Bill Allen when we were privately discussing the unheard of developments 
around 2003 EL61, and possibe scenario's about what could have happened as seen 
from various viewpoints:


 You find something in your data which suggest highly unusual characteristics 
(a +17.5 mag TNO, who would have believed that was possible before this find?). 
Being relatively unknown in the field, would you risk being laughed at? It would 
not surprise me if this is why their initial submission to the MPC did not lable 
it as TNO. It would make sense, when they would try to find out extra 
information about recent TNO finds. Reading the meeting abstract for which they 
submitted an abstract themselves, and which talks about the find of some very 
large TNO's, it would be natural they hit Google to see if they could find 
something more about it than just this abstract which gives little information. 
Then you find a publicly accessible website with apparently more info on those 
objects, such as positions. Accessing it, you discover to your dismay it seems 
to concern YOUR object. Now starts a process of check and double-check: is it 
reallly the same object? Yes, it seems so... So what do you do? Mind you, the 
status of Brown's discovery is * very unclear* at that point. No MPEC has yet 
been released for this object, it is not in the MPC TNO database, there is 
nothing official on it.
If I were in Ortiz et al.'s shoes in such a situation, and knowing a discovery 
of this kind means a much better chance of funding for my research and position 
(which are always very dire here in Europe), I would not hesitate at all to go 
public at that point, formally claiming the, and my rightly independant, 
discovery with an MPC report leading to an MPEC as well as a public statement on 
the find, before the actual meeting on which Brown et al. might or might not 
give out more information. That you scoop Brown et al. is Brown et al's problem, 
it was their decision to not go public yet so their responsibility. I agree that 
they had good reasons to not go public yet (I do not agree at all with those who 
maintain their secrecy would somehow be wrong and anti-scientific, that is 
nonsense), but then they also knew the risks of that. Sometimes you win, 
sometimes you lose.
The question then is: should Ortiz et al. have mentioned that Brown might have 
yet unreported observations on the same object? I do not agree at all with those 
who maintain they should have. These were unpublished data: the one single 
abstract for a meeting that yet had to take place (!) only mentions a name code, 
nothing there to identify this object with your object (or any other object for 
that matter). Scientificaly, they therefore do not yet exist. You can mention 
them out of courtesy, but there is no need to do so whatsoever. I am a scientist 
myself, and every scientist will be familiar with the situation that you publish 
something, and know through the grapevine that someone else is working on the 
same problem and might have yet unpublished results on this. If you would have 
to acknowledge this, scientific literature would be full of statements like: 
There are suggestions that Dr X and prof Y might have yet unpublished data on 
this same [insert subject]. Everybody would see how ridiculous this would be. 
In reality, you only mention this if you have private communications with these 
other researchers, you want to give them credit out of courtesy (and/or because 
their data strengthen your case) and they allow you to mention their data as a 
private communication. And there is no obligation to do so at all (as long as 
you do not use their results). Also note that I am talking of giving credit in 
scientific publications, announcements or meetings here. Ignoring other's work 
on similar objects/subjects is quite the norm in press releases for example. I 
know of no PR department of a scientific institution that does not do that.


Note that here I assume that Ortiz et al. took note of, but did not *use* the 
data gleaned from the telescope log they accessed, other than to check against 
their own data. If the opposite was the case, the situation would be wholy 
different. Indeed, Ortiz et al then would have the obligation to credit Brown, 
and their actions would be scientific misconduct. 



And now, Ortiz posted this message yesterday (reproduced below) on the MPML list 
(I did not get to see it 

Re: [meteorite-list] re: One Find, Two Astronomers: An Ethical Brawl

2005-09-17 Thread Darren Garrison
On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 15:05:15 +0200, Marco Langbroek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

If I were in Ortiz et al.'s shoes in such a situation, and knowing a discovery 
of this kind means a much better chance of funding for my research and 
position 
(which are always very dire here in Europe), I would not hesitate at all to go 
public at that point, formally claiming the, and my rightly independant, 
discovery with an MPC report leading to an MPEC as well as a public statement 
on 
the find, before the actual meeting on which Brown et al. might or might not 

snip

The question then is: should Ortiz et al. have mentioned that Brown might have 
yet unreported observations on the same object? I do not agree at all with 
those 
who maintain they should have. These were unpublished data: the one single 
abstract for a meeting that yet had to take place (!) only mentions a name 
code, 
nothing there to identify this object with your object (or any other object 
for 
that matter). Scientificaly, they therefore do not yet exist. You can mention 
them out of courtesy, but there is no need to do so whatsoever. I am a 
scientist 
myself, and every scientist will be familiar with the situation that you 
publish 
something, and know through the grapevine that someone else is working on the 
same problem and might have yet unpublished results on this. If you would have 
to acknowledge this, scientific literature would be full of statements like: 
There are suggestions that Dr X and prof Y might have yet unpublished data on 
this same [insert subject]. Everybody would see how ridiculous this would be. 

Why not do the HONEST thing and go to Brown and say here, look at this data we 
have, I think we are
looking at the same object.  Why don't we pool our data and publish together?

This whole situation reminds me somewhat of the case of Charles Darwin and 
Alfred Russel Wallace.
After Wallace found out that Darwin had been for years working on a similar 
theory to his, Wallace
didn't sneak a look at a copy of Origin of Species (grabbing a few choice 
points from it for his
work) then rush to press with his own theory.  Darwin didn't try to crush him 
so that HE could
publish first.  The fact that Darwin's work later was the only one generally 
remembered is because
Darwin did MORE work, and was more through and detailed about it:

Read this excerpt for an article on Wallace, and see the similarities to this 
situation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Russel_Wallace

Wallace had once briefly met Darwin, and was one of Darwin's numerous 
correspondents from around the
world, whose observations Darwin used to support his theories. Wallace knew 
that he was interested
in the question of how species originate, and trusted his opinion on the 
matter. Thus, he sent him
his essay, On the Tendency of Varieties to Depart Indefinitely From the 
Original Type (1858), and
asked him to review it. On 18 June 1858 Darwin received the manuscript from 
Wallace. In it, Wallace
describes a novel theory of what is now known as natural selection, and 
proposes that it explains
the diversity of life. It was essentially the same as the theory that Darwin 
had worked on for
twenty years, but had yet to publish. Darwin wrote in a letter to Charles 
Lyell: he could not have
made a better short abstract! Even his terms now stand as heads of my 
chapters! Although Wallace
had not requested that his essay be published, Charles Lyell and Joseph Hooker 
decided to present
the essay, together with excerpts from a paper that Darwin had written in 1844, 
and kept
confidential, to the Linnean Society of London on 1 July 1858, highlighting 
Darwin's priority.

Wallace accepted the arrangement after the fact, grateful that he had been 
included at all. Darwin's
social and scientific status was at that time far greater than Wallace's, and 
it was potentially
unlikely that Wallace's views on evolution would have been taken as seriously. 
Though relegated to
the position of co-discoverer, and never the social equal of Darwin or the 
other elite British
natural scientists, Wallace was granted far greater access to tightly-regulated 
British scientific
circles after the advocacy on his part by Darwin.
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[meteorite-list] One Find, Two Astronomers: An Ethical Brawl

2005-09-17 Thread Marco Langbroek


Darren wrote:

 Why not do the HONEST thing and go to Brown and say here, look at
 this data we have, I think we are looking at the same object.
 Why don't we pool our data and publish together?

This happens sometimes when the peope involved know each other well. When this 
is not the case, it could be risky to do so. I agree the above is a sane thing 
to do if it concerned a colleague I know and trust. I disagree that not doing 
this would be dishonest, however. It is normal scientific conduct to report on 
your own data in the context of what has been *published* by others, and ignore 
potential unpublished materials. That's just the way it goes in science. 
Otherwise, things would get unworkable.


In this case, it was even more simple. It concerned the report of astrometric 
data to the MPC, not publication of a paper. MPC rules are very clear: the first 
who reports astrometric data, gets credit, in the Minor Planet Electronic 
Circular that reports on the object in question. Brown et al. did not report to 
the MPC, Ortiz et al. did, so the latter gets credit. That's the way it goes for 
*ALL* newly discovered solar system objects. There's no reason why 2003 EL61 
should be an exception.


Considering Wallace and Darwin: there are science historians who feel that 
Darwin and some people supporting him did outmanouvre Wallace when they 
discovered Walllace was indepently arriving at an evolution by natural selection 
theory.


- Marco

-
Dr Marco Langbroek
Dutch Meteor Society (DMS)

e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
private website http://home.wanadoo.nl/marco.langbroek
DMS website http://www.dmsweb.org
-
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[meteorite-list] MArtin Altmann

2005-09-17 Thread Michael Farmer
Martin, can you please email me off list to this
address.
Sorry, but one of my email accounts is down.
Mike Farmer
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[meteorite-list] Sexy New Lunar Martian Photos

2005-09-17 Thread Arizona Skies Meteorites
Hi all...Since it's been a bit quiet on the list
lately, we thought now would be a nice time to share
some photos of our sexy new Lunar  Martian
specimens. Enjoy!


http://www.arizonaskiesmeteorites.com/Lunar_Martian/



-John  Dawn
Arizona Skies Meteorites

Arizona Skies Meteorites

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Re: [meteorite-list] re: One Find, Two Astronomers: An Ethical Brawl

2005-09-17 Thread Sterling K. Webb
Hi, All,

Ah, opinion is such a flighty thing. I read Ortiz'
declaration and it all makes perfect sense. He's
a fine fellow, it seems, but...

We often, deep in our concerns, follow a sequence
of reasonings, all of which seems perfectly sound and
proper from each step to each step, to the end, yet
when an outsider looks at the completed action
without knowing the steps, he may see things in a
light that never was.

Stoss uses NEAT data, DSS and POSS data, to
refine the orbit. He never uses Brown's data? Wouldn't
that help refine it? Yet, 20 minutes after the times of
his own Mallorca observations and recovery of the
object, someone at IAA is accessing Brown's positional
data AGAIN.

I am most curious. Why? Are they merely curious?
At this point, they have discovery positions (2003),
archival positions (NEAT, etc.), and current position
(Mallorca) of their object. Why check someone else's
data if you are not going to use it and claim that you
are not even sure if it's the same object?

Of course, with Stoss' work, they know its orbit
as well as Brown, perhaps even better because they
have archival positions which Brown appears not to
have searched for. What do they need with Brown's
data? To me, it seems inexplicable behavior in the
context of their narration. In fact, with what orbital
data they already have, they can easily determine
from Brown's data accessed the first time that it
IS the same.

If for no other reason than this, one should always
consider the appearances of things to others, whether
an interested or disinterested party. It is merely wise
to do so, as many a politician has discovered, often
woefully.

Marco says, Note that here I assume that Ortiz
et al. took note of, but did not *use* the data gleaned
from the telescope log they accessed...

That, of course, is the tipping point issue, entirely
and completely. Ortiz et al. assert it, or at least imply
it; they do not actually address it directly. We must
*assume* it or not *assume* it, and when that is so,
one must expect different people to make different
assumptions.

Science can be quite as cut-throat as any other
human endeavor, although one would never know
it from the public image of scientists. There is a
Nobel-winning scientist, in the past decade, in
a field I shall not name, who is absolutely detested
by the majority of workers in the same field for
stealing others' work by a variety of means, by
every means possible, in fact, countless thoroughly
despicable behaviors. But, he got that prize... and
probably for a theory that will be ultimately quite
discredited.

If Ortiz made some use of Brown's data he will
not admit to, but really made the 2003 discovery,
it is, to use an American expression, small potatoes.
Myself, in his position, would have mentioned it.

Marco calls Brown's observations unpublished
and unreported yet also refers to a published
abstract of Brown's and to the publicly accessible
website. If so, there's a reason that that the law
refers to publishing on the web. To place anything
on the web is to PUBLISH it, legally. So, we are
drawing a line here that weaves in and out among
various definitions of publish, and that line is not
a straight line. Is the criterion peer-review alone?
Not to the world at large...

Completely aside, that is why you aspiring authors
should never put your great novels-to-be on your
website. Technically, that is publication; and
should a real publisher ever want it, you will find
that you have reduced its value because they would
be buying reprint rights, which are not worth the
same as first rights. Just a tip...

If I had been the SMARTS Consortium's webmaster,
I would have told them to make the front end accessible,
with the pretty pictures and the press releases, and to
put the Consortium's business under 128-bit encryption
and password protected. (It's never too late to do this,
Mike Brown, if you're listening, and no trouble. If the tiny
bank in a town of 1500 pop. can do it, so can Yale and
CalTech...)

Other scientists may airily say, O, free and public data,
I found it on a website, but the law says copyrighted
intellectual property... It's a question of which frame
you view reality from.

There are other approaches. The Lowell Observatory
Deep Ecliptic Survey puts hundreds of KBO's in databases
and literally begs for somebody to follow up on them. Many
are lost again because there is no followup astrometry. Of
course, an ecliptic survey would not have found 2003EL61
or 2003UB313 at all...

We're just at the very first stages of exploring Trans-
Neptunian space. Five or ten years from now, this may
be largely forgotten in a splurge of discovery. I hope so,
anyway. And I think there will be a splurge of discovery.

When 2003UB313 was discovered, I posted a long
(multi-part) post hypothesizing three logical categories or
populations of planets: Terrestrial (differentiated rocky/
iron worlds), Jovian 

[meteorite-list] Katrina Charity Raffle

2005-09-17 Thread Pete Pete
I thought I would have been notified about winning the Meteorite Hunting 
Expedition by now...;]



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RE: [meteorite-list] Katrina Charity Raffle

2005-09-17 Thread moni Waiblinger-Seabridge


Me too about winning the six pointed Nininiger star!  ;-)


From: Pete Pete [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Subject: [meteorite-list] Katrina Charity Raffle
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 21:59:41 -0400

I thought I would have been notified about winning the Meteorite Hunting 
Expedition by now...;]






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[meteorite-list] MeteoriteArticles.com AD: Collection Pieces++++

2005-09-17 Thread MARK BOSTICK

Hello All,

First a few ebay auctions of interest.  All started at $0.99.  Check my 
other auctions, now and later this week-month for lots of more $0.99 
auctions.


Dalgety Downs Thin Section

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=6561861323

109 gram BicoliteChoice Piece, $218 retail
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=6561854766

NWA 873 Main Mass
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=6561862949

NWA 096 H3.8 Thin Section
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=6561868563

NWA 060 CO3.3/3.4 Thin Section
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=6561870987

NWA 876 H5 Main Mass
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=6562373037

Sikhote-Alin Iron Meteorite Double Oriented!! 14.6g
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=6562444703

HENBURY Iron METEORITE, 12.5g., with HUSS Number
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=6562383655

A Comet Strikes The Earth, Signed by Nininger
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=6561858585

Find a Falling Star, Hardbound, Signed by Nininger
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=6562392481

Check out this Stranged shaped Canyon Diablo
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=6562382642

Missing some of my postcards?  Buy at least 5 different and you can have 
them for $1.00/each half price.


Listed here: http://www.meteoritearticles.com/postcardsale.html

Plus lets fo through a box and price a few items..I have these plastic 
shoebox sized rubbermade boxes.  Five of these fit into larger Rubbermade 
plastic boxes.  These boxes are stacked everywhere around my place and upon 
each other, under things...I think I need a new place.


Anywaylets see.

Slovak 10.6g, $40.00

Cole Creek 10.6g $25.00

Songyuan, Fall, 1.5g, $12.00

Sikhote-Alin, 9.91g...shaped like gun, $15.00

Essex Meteorite Pendent.  This was made by the finder and given to me for 
writing that short article in Meteorite Times.  Basically a cab, with a 
silver setting.  $75.00


Columbus, NM. Main Mass. H5 45.9g. $450.00

Hualapai Wash 004.  Gold Basin area L6.  Name was never approved.  Purchased 
from finder, O'Keefe. 8.49g. $50.00


Park Forest14.5g from the Garza stone.  Large crust on two sides, for 
size at least.  Purchased from Rob Elliott, who retailed Garza PF at $100/g. 
 Selling for $725.00.  Half price.


NWA 2119 4.6g. Complete slice  L3.8 with tkw of only 41.9g.  Only $30.00.

Juangcheng….1.184g individual….$8.00...100% crusted baby.

Powellsville 2.20g, $20.00

Darwin Glass. 14.4g shaped kinda like finger.  I have sold several kg. of 
DG.  I kept this because of its shape...14.4g is not large. $15.00


Valera. 2.99g Cow Killer. $20.00

Park Forest Winslow St. House Crater $2000.…lots of paperwork and photos.  
Only horizontal meteorite crater in the world!


Okay….I am getting tired now.  Thought I would make it at least half way 
though the box but I have been really pushing myself the last 48 hours just 
ran out of gas.


Be sure to check the eBay items and if you need photos of anything listed 
above let me know.  I might not answer to tomorrow morning, and perhaps I 
will try to hang out in the chat room tomorrow to answer collection sale 
questions.


Clear Skies,
Mark Bostick
www.meteoritearticles.com


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Re: [meteorite-list] Katrina Charity Raffle

2005-09-17 Thread Michael Farmer
Just back from the meteorite raffle, finished like 30
minutes ago! You will never believe who won the first
grand prize! 
Oh my...
Mike Farmer

--- Pete Pete [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I thought I would have been notified about winning
 the Meteorite Hunting 
 Expedition by now...;]
 
 
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 Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com

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Re: [meteorite-list] Katrina Charity Raffle

2005-09-17 Thread Rob Wesel

Notkin???

Rob Wesel
http://www.nakhladogmeteorites.com
--
We are the music makers...
and we are the dreamers of the dreams.
Willy Wonka, 1971



- Original Message - 
From: Michael Farmer [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: Pete Pete [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Katrina Charity Raffle



Just back from the meteorite raffle, finished like 30
minutes ago! You will never believe who won the first
grand prize!
Oh my...
Mike Farmer

--- Pete Pete [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I thought I would have been notified about winning
the Meteorite Hunting
Expedition by now...;]


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