Re: [meteorite-list] Collection succession planning
Bill All, A couple of notes have come in expressing trouble with the link, yours being the second, so go to www.fallingrocks.com, hit Links Resources on the home page, then hit Temporary Custodians under the Media header. Interesting to see insight from you re: concern over negative things, but, to keep this positive, perhaps you might spend two minutes giving it a read before posting said assumptions? I doubt the notion is one that might drive readers to a monastery or Zoloft. Pretty simple stuff, and a real shame when such an easy thing to do is overlooked until it is too late. Dave -Original Message- From: bill kies [mailto:parkforest...@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 1:07 AM To: d...@fallingrocks.com Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Collection succession planning Are we temporary custodians? That implies we owe the collective in a Jungian way. If you consider all the negative things that could happen to our meteorites/belongings, you'll either become a monk or a nervous wreck. Everything should be recorded in case of an accident but life comes before the provenance of any collection. Time is so short for us. This comment is based on an assumption of what your article was about as the link didn't work for me. Thanks, Bill From: d...@fallingrocks.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 22:19:01 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Collection succession planning Hi All, I recently wrote a brief article that Larry ran in the August 2009 issue of Meteorite Magazine entitled Temporary Custodians, and the response has been a bit surprising. Somewhere around a couple dozen readers have taken the time to drop me an email saying things like thanks for the heads-up article...[it] made for uneasy reading. Surely there are collectors on this list who do not yet subscribe to Meteorite Magazine (and everyone on this list really should!), so, given the topic, I'm posting a transcript below. The content is by no means comprehensive, but I'd really encourage those of you with meteorite collections to give it a quick read. Most of us have been guilty at one time or another -- or at all times -- of leaving loose ends such as those described in the writing. Anyway, a web version of it can be found here: http://www.fallingrocks.com/FRarticle-082009.htm. Larry, I hope you don't mind my posting it here, and thank you again for giving the topic coverage in Meteorite! All the best, Dave Dave Gheesling IMCA #5967 www.fallingrocks.com __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _ Windows 7: Simplify your PC. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLM TAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen1:102009 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Collection succession planning
Great article, Dave! I'm so glad this was published and hope others will take a minute to read it and think about it. One of my biggest fears in our hobby is the loss of information. I hope more people will spend the time researching and properly documenting the meteorites *they already own.* It is amazing how deep you can go when you put forth the effort. It is a fact that future generations will rely significantly on this information. I agree that we are all obligated, as *temporary custodians,* to properly document and curate each specimen we own. --- Mike Bandli Historic Meteorites www.HistoricMeteorites.com IMCA #5765 --- -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Dave Gheesling Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 7:19 PM To: 'meteoritecentral' Subject: [meteorite-list] Collection succession planning Hi All, I recently wrote a brief article that Larry ran in the August 2009 issue of Meteorite Magazine entitled Temporary Custodians, and the response has been a bit surprising. Somewhere around a couple dozen readers have taken the time to drop me an email saying things like thanks for the heads-up article...[it] made for uneasy reading. Surely there are collectors on this list who do not yet subscribe to Meteorite Magazine (and everyone on this list really should!), so, given the topic, I'm posting a transcript below. The content is by no means comprehensive, but I'd really encourage those of you with meteorite collections to give it a quick read. Most of us have been guilty at one time or another -- or at all times -- of leaving loose ends such as those described in the writing. Anyway, a web version of it can be found here: http://www.fallingrocks.com/FRarticle-082009.htm. Larry, I hope you don't mind my posting it here, and thank you again for giving the topic coverage in Meteorite! All the best, Dave Dave Gheesling IMCA #5967 www.fallingrocks.com __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] AD/up date to web pages Admire pallasite meteorites
Hello everyone I have just finished adding several full slices of the very interesting and beautiful Admire pallasite meteorites to my web site. This particular meteorite shows a shimmer affect which I have not photographed yet but both of the larger slices display this unique affect. The crystals are the most interesting I have seen, they have such depth and reflect light back and wow so many colors. You can see new additions here http://www.meteoritefinder.com/whats-new-sale.htm Small photos open to larger versions just click on them to enlarge. I have some other interesting items running on Ebay if you are interested no Admire right now but some smaller pieces will be start as early as this evening with more to follow in the coming days and weeks. My Ebay is here http://shop.ebay.com/flattoprocks/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_from=_ipg=_trksid=p4340 My wife has her Ebay up and running with different pieces and you can find her here http://shop.ebay.com/flatop-2/m.html?_nkw=_armrs=1_from=_ipg=_trksid=p4340 Her Ebay will be selling small Admire slices in weeks to come as well. Thanks for looking -- Mike Miller 230 Greenway Dr. Kingman Az 86401 www.meteoritefinder.com 928-753-6825 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Collection succession planning
Dave, I enjoyed reading your article again, despite having read it in Met Mag already. I'm in the midst of updating the recent acquisitions and sales in my humble collection. I'm living on borrowed time already, as we all are really, so it is important to me that my wife is left with more than a pile of rocks to sort through. Your article gives me some ideas on how I can improve my system. And don't worry, I'll enjoy life while doing so. ;^) Thank you. Linton - Original Message - From: Dave Gheesling d...@fallingrocks.com To: 'bill kies' parkforest...@hotmail.com Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 4:21 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Collection succession planning Bill All, A couple of notes have come in expressing trouble with the link, yours being the second, so go to www.fallingrocks.com, hit Links Resources on the home page, then hit Temporary Custodians under the Media header. Interesting to see insight from you re: concern over negative things, but, to keep this positive, perhaps you might spend two minutes giving it a read before posting said assumptions? I doubt the notion is one that might drive readers to a monastery or Zoloft. Pretty simple stuff, and a real shame when such an easy thing to do is overlooked until it is too late. Dave -Original Message- From: bill kies [mailto:parkforest...@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 1:07 AM To: d...@fallingrocks.com Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Collection succession planning Are we temporary custodians? That implies we owe the collective in a Jungian way. If you consider all the negative things that could happen to our meteorites/belongings, you'll either become a monk or a nervous wreck. Everything should be recorded in case of an accident but life comes before the provenance of any collection. Time is so short for us. This comment is based on an assumption of what your article was about as the link didn't work for me. Thanks, Bill From: d...@fallingrocks.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 22:19:01 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Collection succession planning Hi All, I recently wrote a brief article that Larry ran in the August 2009 issue of Meteorite Magazine entitled Temporary Custodians, and the response has been a bit surprising. Somewhere around a couple dozen readers have taken the time to drop me an email saying things like thanks for the heads-up article...[it] made for uneasy reading. Surely there are collectors on this list who do not yet subscribe to Meteorite Magazine (and everyone on this list really should!), so, given the topic, I'm posting a transcript below. The content is by no means comprehensive, but I'd really encourage those of you with meteorite collections to give it a quick read. Most of us have been guilty at one time or another -- or at all times -- of leaving loose ends such as those described in the writing. Anyway, a web version of it can be found here: http://www.fallingrocks.com/FRarticle-082009.htm. Larry, I hope you don't mind my posting it here, and thank you again for giving the topic coverage in Meteorite! All the best, Dave Dave Gheesling IMCA #5967 www.fallingrocks.com __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Issue with etching via ferric choride
Having a bit of a problem on some etch jobs and having to re-etch a few specimens. How do you rinse/neutralize your ferric after the etch? I'm getting remnant staining and sometimes corrosion. I'm doing something wrong. Any ideas? -mt __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Issue with etching via ferric choride
Hello McCartney (and all): Yes, the etch happens very quickly and you need to terminate it by a quick wash under running water. Follow with a rinse in distilled water if you want to but we never do and it works fine. You don;t have to neutralize it, just wash it off VERY FAST. In fact, I use running water to slow down the process as I am doing it, especially if I need to etch one section of a surface more. There is a bit of a technique - just practice and you will do well. If yo are getting staining your washing is incomplete. Ron Hartman - Original Message - From: McCartney Taylor mccart...@blackbearddata.com To: MeteoriteList meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 2:58 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Issue with etching via ferric choride Having a bit of a problem on some etch jobs and having to re-etch a few specimens. How do you rinse/neutralize your ferric after the etch? I'm getting remnant staining and sometimes corrosion. I'm doing something wrong. Any ideas? -mt __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Issue with etching via ferric choride
Hi McCartney, Ron, Listees, This might actually be a good topic for an article on the new Meteorite Wiki. Perhaps an experienced and generous person would be willing to extend the time to write an extensive and detailed article on it including information on preservation and stabilization. I'm sure others would love to learn the process. I would be will to add a few of my photos to the document and release them into the public domain for all use. What do you think? Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA R N Hartman wrote: Hello McCartney (and all): Yes, the etch happens very quickly and you need to terminate it by a quick wash under running water. Follow with a rinse in distilled water if you want to but we never do and it works fine. You don;t have to neutralize it, just wash it off VERY FAST. In fact, I use running water to slow down the process as I am doing it, especially if I need to etch one section of a surface more. There is a bit of a technique - just practice and you will do well. If yo are getting staining your washing is incomplete. Ron Hartman - Original Message - From: McCartney Taylor mccart...@blackbearddata.com To: MeteoriteList meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 2:58 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Issue with etching via ferric choride Having a bit of a problem on some etch jobs and having to re-etch a few specimens. How do you rinse/neutralize your ferric after the etch? I'm getting remnant staining and sometimes corrosion. I'm doing something wrong. Any ideas? -mt __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Issue with etching via ferric choride
Hi List, Anyone have any experience using Radio Shack circuit board etching solution? Count Deiro -Original Message- From: Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com Sent: Oct 29, 2009 8:04 PM To: R N Hartman rhartma...@earthlink.net Cc: mccart...@blackbearddata.com, MeteoriteList meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Issue with etching via ferric choride Hi McCartney, Ron, Listees, This might actually be a good topic for an article on the new Meteorite Wiki. Perhaps an experienced and generous person would be willing to extend the time to write an extensive and detailed article on it including information on preservation and stabilization. I'm sure others would love to learn the process. I would be will to add a few of my photos to the document and release them into the public domain for all use. What do you think? Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA R N Hartman wrote: Hello McCartney (and all): Yes, the etch happens very quickly and you need to terminate it by a quick wash under running water. Follow with a rinse in distilled water if you want to but we never do and it works fine. You don;t have to neutralize it, just wash it off VERY FAST. In fact, I use running water to slow down the process as I am doing it, especially if I need to etch one section of a surface more. There is a bit of a technique - just practice and you will do well. If yo are getting staining your washing is incomplete. Ron Hartman - Original Message - From: McCartney Taylor mccart...@blackbearddata.com To: MeteoriteList meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 2:58 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Issue with etching via ferric choride Having a bit of a problem on some etch jobs and having to re-etch a few specimens. How do you rinse/neutralize your ferric after the etch? I'm getting remnant staining and sometimes corrosion. I'm doing something wrong. Any ideas? -mt __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Issue with etching via ferric choride
Ferric is a deeper more contrasty etch than nitric and gives a more pleasing etch. It can be used as an alternative to a nitric etch. We use it all the time and it is the only etchant we use. And its easier to obtain and handle than nitric. See our article ETCHING IRON METEORITES (The Myth of Nitric Acid) in Meteorite Times, November, 2002: http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2002/November/index.htm Ron Hartman - Original Message - From: R N Hartman rhartma...@earthlink.net To: mccart...@blackbearddata.com; MeteoriteList meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Issue with etching via ferric choride Hello McCartney (and all): Yes, the etch happens very quickly and you need to terminate it by a quick wash under running water. Follow with a rinse in distilled water if you want to but we never do and it works fine. You don;t have to neutralize it, just wash it off VERY FAST. In fact, I use running water to slow down the process as I am doing it, especially if I need to etch one section of a surface more. There is a bit of a technique - just practice and you will do well. If yo are getting staining your washing is incomplete. Ron Hartman - Original Message - From: McCartney Taylor mccart...@blackbearddata.com To: MeteoriteList meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 2:58 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Issue with etching via ferric choride Having a bit of a problem on some etch jobs and having to re-etch a few specimens. How do you rinse/neutralize your ferric after the etch? I'm getting remnant staining and sometimes corrosion. I'm doing something wrong. Any ideas? -mt __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Issue with etching via ferric choride
Thank you Linton. However those PowerPoint presentations are for IMCA members only. You need a logon Id to download them. Eventually there will be a lot more education and information material on our website but it has to be written first, and two IMCA are working on that. So it will be a while longer. An incentive to become an IMCA member now;-) Anne M. Black _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) _impact...@aol.com_ (mailto:impact...@aol.com) Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) In a message dated 10/29/2009 6:30:18 PM Mountain Daylight Time, linton...@earthlink.net writes: It sure would, Eric. I should point out though, that there is a PowerPoint presentation available on the subject under the downloads category on the IMCA site. It is entitled Meteorites 301, and is a follow-up to 201 and 101, as you would expect. I just downloaded them all last week, and may use the first two for a upcoming Boy Scout presentation. I should also point out that I have not *yet* done any etching, so the contents of this PowerPoint program pretty much match the extent of my knowledge on the subject! ;^) Linton __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Issue with etching via ferric choride
Count, Yes. It's ferric chloride and works fine. Thomas --- On Thu, 10/29/09, countde...@earthlink.net countde...@earthlink.net wrote: From: countde...@earthlink.net countde...@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Issue with etching via ferric choride To: Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com, R N Hartman rhartma...@earthlink.net Cc: mccart...@blackbearddata.com, MeteoriteList meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Thursday, October 29, 2009, 8:27 PM Hi List, Anyone have any experience using Radio Shack circuit board etching solution? Count Deiro -Original Message- From: Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com Sent: Oct 29, 2009 8:04 PM To: R N Hartman rhartma...@earthlink.net Cc: mccart...@blackbearddata.com, MeteoriteList meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Issue with etching via ferric choride Hi McCartney, Ron, Listees, This might actually be a good topic for an article on the new Meteorite Wiki. Perhaps an experienced and generous person would be willing to extend the time to write an extensive and detailed article on it including information on preservation and stabilization. I'm sure others would love to learn the process. I would be will to add a few of my photos to the document and release them into the public domain for all use. What do you think? Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA R N Hartman wrote: Hello McCartney (and all): Yes, the etch happens very quickly and you need to terminate it by a quick wash under running water. Follow with a rinse in distilled water if you want to but we never do and it works fine. You don;t have to neutralize it, just wash it off VERY FAST. In fact, I use running water to slow down the process as I am doing it, especially if I need to etch one section of a surface more. There is a bit of a technique - just practice and you will do well. If yo are getting staining your washing is incomplete. Ron Hartman - Original Message - From: McCartney Taylor mccart...@blackbearddata.com To: MeteoriteList meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 2:58 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Issue with etching via ferric choride Having a bit of a problem on some etch jobs and having to re-etch a few specimens. How do you rinse/neutralize your ferric after the etch? I'm getting remnant staining and sometimes corrosion. I'm doing something wrong. Any ideas? -mt __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] AD - Admire pallasite FOR SALE
Hello List, I have a very nice slice of Admire for sale, only $7.00 per gram A picture of the slice is shown here http://www.meteorman.org/Admire_105.5g.htm Thanks, Tim Heitz MIDWEST METEORITES - http://www.meteorman.org __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Neutron production in hypervelocity impacts - was Odessa date
Hi Chris- The C14 calibration data only goes back 24,000 years, Try 50,000 years - INCAL98. and there have been no confirmed significant impacts during that time, Barringer? and not even any well dated minor impacts. So how can spikes in the calibration curve be linked to impacts? Actually, take a look at the INTCAL98 chart running back 50,000 YEARS. Note the spike and then the bump at 10,900 BCE. This is what is started driving Firestone - he saw a supernova at first, then a supernova injecting comets. Even given a large impact (a big given) Take a look at Barringer, and look at what has been found at Sheriden Cave, and by the way note the First Peoples' accounts of these multiple large comet fragment impacts at: http://forum.palanth.com/index.php/topic,1093.0.html I suppose the denial will go on for years, even after the AGU discussion/debates coming up soon. there are plausible explanations for how this would affect C14 concentrations; far more plausible than the very unlikely production of neutrons. Yes, I know the releases energies are very high, and yes, there are multiple explanations, - sun, magnetosphere, supernova, etc. It will fall to those with more intelligence than I myself have left to sort it all out But plese note that the one spike that got to me was the spike roughly at the time of the Barringer Crater impact. Firestone is proposing multiple supenovas, from what is being sent around, but it sure looks to me like the energies in large hypervelocity impacts are indeed freeing neutrons. In the meantime, OSL dating for Odessa will be an open question for me. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas (a pretty good book despite its flaws - write me off list for the meteorite list special.) PS - I have been wrong in the past, and reserve the right to be wrong both now and in the future. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - October 30, 2009
http://www.rocksfromspace.org/October_30_2009.html __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Neutron production in hypervelocity impacts - wasOdessa date
INTCAL98 defines the C14 calibration back 26,000 years. There have been subsequent calibrations using deposits in caves that push things back to about 45,000 years, with somewhat less accuracy, and these aren't normally used in standard C14 dating. What curve are you looking at that goes back 50,000 years? But it doesn't really matter. The problem is there is no way to connect changes in C14 levels with any kind of impact events. Barringer is not very accurately dated, and there was enough other stuff going on around the Younger Dryas to cause changes without invoking an impact. Note that I'm not saying here whether one or more impacts did or didn't occur over the C14 data record, only that there is no solid, datable evidence that can be matched to that record. Given all the possible things that can affect C14 production (and especially C14 uptake), it is almost impossible to use the record to demonstrate anything. IMO Barringer is a horrible example in any case, if you believe that neutrons are produced. For such a small impact to actually produce enough neutrons to significantly affect the worldwide C14 levels would also result in very obvious radioisotope anomalies in the surviving iron meteorite samples, give iron's high neutron absorption cross section. You'd be better off trying to sell this theory with a collision with a comet or other stony body than an iron. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: E.P. Grondine epgrond...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 8:44 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Neutron production in hypervelocity impacts - wasOdessa date Hi Chris- The C14 calibration data only goes back 24,000 years, Try 50,000 years - INCAL98. and there have been no confirmed significant impacts during that time, Barringer? and not even any well dated minor impacts. So how can spikes in the calibration curve be linked to impacts? Actually, take a look at the INTCAL98 chart running back 50,000 YEARS. Note the spike and then the bump at 10,900 BCE. This is what is started driving Firestone - he saw a supernova at first, then a supernova injecting comets. Even given a large impact (a big given) Take a look at Barringer, and look at what has been found at Sheriden Cave, and by the way note the First Peoples' accounts of these multiple large comet fragment impacts at: http://forum.palanth.com/index.php/topic,1093.0.html I suppose the denial will go on for years, even after the AGU discussion/debates coming up soon. there are plausible explanations for how this would affect C14 concentrations; far more plausible than the very unlikely production of neutrons. Yes, I know the releases energies are very high, and yes, there are multiple explanations, - sun, magnetosphere, supernova, etc. It will fall to those with more intelligence than I myself have left to sort it all out But plese note that the one spike that got to me was the spike roughly at the time of the Barringer Crater impact. Firestone is proposing multiple supenovas, from what is being sent around, but it sure looks to me like the energies in large hypervelocity impacts are indeed freeing neutrons. In the meantime, OSL dating for Odessa will be an open question for me. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas (a pretty good book despite its flaws - write me off list for the meteorite list special.) PS - I have been wrong in the past, and reserve the right to be wrong both now and in the future. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Neutron freeing in large hypervelocity impacts
Hi Rob - Yes, I have read through all that before, but the spike that gets to me is that huge spike in the INTCAL98 data right around the time of the Barringer impact. I don't think the neutron release is related to what hits, or what is hit, but rather just the total impact energy. I wonder what the big ones like Chicxulub or Shiva or Zamanshin will show. If part of the impact energy in the form of infra-red is concentrated in a small enough region, then releases could occur. Take the IR measured from Tunguska for example, then scale massively and localize to points. Do we hit freeing energies? Speaking of Beryllium, the protons released at the same time as the neutrons should be causing spikes in 10Be as well. In closing, I have been wrong before, and reserve the right to be wrong both now and in the future. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas ( a damn fine book, really, despite all its flaws) Matson, Robert D. robert.d.mat...@saic.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Odessa E.P. wrote: Take a look at the INTCAL98 14C calibration chart. Major spikes appear to map to impacts. Spikes in the C14 calibration chart can be caused by a number of factors (including measurement uncertainty/error). But the main cause of variability in the production rate of atmospheric C14 is simply variation in the flux of cosmic rays. Cosmic ray intensity is modulated by both the strength of the earth's magnetosphere and the sun's solar wind, neither of which is constant. From the other side of the equation, atmospheric C12 is ALSO modulated by earthly processes (e.g. volcanic eruptions, ocean temperature changes)which can produce regional anomalies in the samples used to build the radiocarbon calibration curves. There is no evidence that large impacts can cause nuclear reactions that release neutrons. There isn't sufficient energy or fissionable material, so I have difficulty coming up with a mechanism which could cause a large spike in neutrons. I suppose if an impactor had an anomolously high beryllium content and it happened to hit an earth location with rich uranium deposits, then you could get a small neutron hiccup. But siderites are very low in berrylium ( 10 parts per billion), so that's a no-go on Odessa. Even chondrites typically have only a few hundred parts per billion. --Rob __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Neutron freeing in large hypervelocity impacts
I have tried to find any sources of the calibrating curve but I always ends up on a publication server that tells me I have to pay to read the article. As you seems to have found it, could you tell me where to find it or show us the curve and dataset? The closest thing I found was this quote on http://scienceweek.com/2005/sc050218-2.htm 4) Despite these efforts, it remains difficult to calibrate periods older than 22,000 14C years B.P., because residual concentrations of 14C in such samples are extremely low (a few percent of the concentration found in modern samples). In addition, old samples have often been altered by geochemical processes. In particular, most corals that grew before the sea-level minimum at 21,000 calendar years B.P. suffered intense meteoric alteration, precluding their use for 14C calibration. The only two published reconstructions with satisfactory analytical precision and low overall data scatter are the Lake Suigetsu record (4,5) and the Bahamian speleothem (speleothems are cave carbonates such as stalagmites and flowstones). However, these two records strongly disagree. Hence, at least one of them provides an inaccurate picture of the true calibration curve. Which of the curves do you base your theory on? How can you trust the dating of the Barringer crater (which seems to be quite inaccurate) when you think that the dating of the much smaller Odessa crater is so wrong? Describe how infra red (long wave heat radiation) could lead to proton release and how it could be concentrated in a small enough region. In which way would protons released create a spike in 10Be? You have reserved the right of being wrong and I think you are. Whenever some data doesn't match your theories you try to come up with an imaginary process that in a magical way will make it fit. Excuse me for being blunt, but I always try to combat junk science and I think this is junk science without even an attempt of a proof. But even I reserve the right of being wrong... :-) /Göran E.P. Grondine wrote: Hi Rob - Yes, I have read through all that before, but the spike that gets to me is that huge spike in the INTCAL98 data right around the time of the Barringer impact. I don't think the neutron release is related to what hits, or what is hit, but rather just the total impact energy. I wonder what the big ones like Chicxulub or Shiva or Zamanshin will show. If part of the impact energy in the form of infra-red is concentrated in a small enough region, then releases could occur. Take the IR measured from Tunguska for example, then scale massively and localize to points. Do we hit freeing energies? Speaking of Beryllium, the protons released at the same time as the neutrons should be causing spikes in 10Be as well. In closing, I have been wrong before, and reserve the right to be wrong both now and in the future. E.P. Grondine Man and Impact in the Americas ( a damn fine book, really, despite all its flaws) Matson, Robert D. robert.d.mat...@saic.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Odessa E.P. wrote: Take a look at the INTCAL98 14C calibration chart. Major spikes appear to map to impacts. Spikes in the C14 calibration chart can be caused by a number of factors (including measurement uncertainty/error). But the main cause of variability in the production rate of atmospheric C14 is simply variation in the flux of cosmic rays. Cosmic ray intensity is modulated by both the strength of the earth's magnetosphere and the sun's solar wind, neither of which is constant. From the other side of the equation, atmospheric C12 is ALSO modulated by earthly processes (e.g. volcanic eruptions, ocean temperature changes)which can produce regional anomalies in the samples used to build the radiocarbon calibration curves. There is no evidence that large impacts can cause nuclear reactions that release neutrons. There isn't sufficient energy or fissionable material, so I have difficulty coming up with a mechanism which could cause a large spike in neutrons. I suppose if an impactor had an anomolously high beryllium content and it happened to hit an earth location with rich uranium deposits, then you could get a small neutron hiccup. But siderites are very low in berrylium ( 10 parts per billion), so that's a no-go on Odessa. Even chondrites typically have only a few hundred parts per billion. --Rob __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Issue with etching via ferric choride
Eric, I would really be interested in reading it. Be sure to include some safety guidelines. Today I just read about a guy who messed up his health bigtime doing some welding work. Just one whiff of some minor looking fumes. I don't have the article to pass along right now - it's at work. I know people who handle acids and they say ferric is one of the nastiest they use, but maybe it's a lot more concentrated than what McCartney is talking about though. I'd hate to see someone get hurt by because they don't realize the hazards. So I'd recommend everybody familiarize themselves with the MSDS before handling anything like that. It's a little tough in an emergency trying to figure out what to do... Happy etching, Mark Vail, AZ --- On Thu, 10/29/09, Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com wrote: From: Meteorites USA e...@meteoritesusa.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Issue with etching via ferric choride To: R N Hartman rhartma...@earthlink.net Cc: mccart...@blackbearddata.com, MeteoriteList meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Thursday, October 29, 2009, 5:04 PM Hi McCartney, Ron, Listees, This might actually be a good topic for an article on the new Meteorite Wiki. Perhaps an experienced and generous person would be willing to extend the time to write an extensive and detailed article on it including information on preservation and stabilization. I'm sure others would love to learn the process. I would be will to add a few of my photos to the document and release them into the public domain for all use. What do you think? Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA R N Hartman wrote: Hello McCartney (and all): Yes, the etch happens very quickly and you need to terminate it by a quick wash under running water. Follow with a rinse in distilled water if you want to but we never do and it works fine. You don;t have to neutralize it, just wash it off VERY FAST. In fact, I use running water to slow down the process as I am doing it, especially if I need to etch one section of a surface more. There is a bit of a technique - just practice and you will do well. If yo are getting staining your washing is incomplete. Ron Hartman - Original Message - From: McCartney Taylor mccart...@blackbearddata.com To: MeteoriteList meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 2:58 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Issue with etching via ferric choride Having a bit of a problem on some etch jobs and having to re-etch a few specimens. How do you rinse/neutralize your ferric after the etch? I'm getting remnant staining and sometimes corrosion. I'm doing something wrong. Any ideas? -mt __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Neutron freeing in large hypervelocity impacts
E.P., Chris, Rob, List, The problem is neutrons. Difficulty coming up with a mechanism which could cause a large spike in neutrons, said Rob. Neutrons, free neutrons that is, are produced two ways. First, the nucleus of an atom can decide to kick out a neutron and change its image (and isotope). The energy of the evicted neutron varies from one radioactive decay to another. Some neutrons are released with a lot of energy; others stroll along, obstructing joggers. If you think I'm being whimsical, it's true. A so-called thermal neutron moves about the speed of an old man in carpet slippers. But neutrons produced by neutron decay are immune to the events of the world outside the nucleus, so impact has nothing to do with them. The other way of producing neutrons is called the spallation method. Namely, whack an atom with something, anything, real hard and knock a neutron loose. Now, that sounds more like impact, doesn't it? A neutron can be spalled off by almost any particle with enough energy to do the job. You can use electrons, protons, muons, photons -- it really doesn't matter what the hammer is made of, only how hard you whack the nucleus. So, the question of an impact (or an impactor) creating neutrons (which will affect terrestrial isotope levels like 14C and 10Be) depends on mechanisms that can produce energetic particles and are a product of the physical event of the impact (and impactor). Why do I keep throwing the impactor in there? Well, think about a BIG object entering the atmosphere at cosmic velocities (instead of a lousy 10-meter rock). Say, a kilometer sphere of something (anything). The leading area of that sphere has 31,415,926,536 square centimeters and each and every square centimeter is enveloped by a plasma that (unlike the re-entry plasma of a small rock) can approach, achieve, or may exceed 50,000 degrees K. At that temperature, a fair percentage of the plasma energy is being emitted as X-rays. For about a meter ahead of that plasma, the atmosphere is subject to x-ray photon energies quite high enough to spall neutrons out of the nuclei of atmospheric gasses and cause a cascade of nuclear reactions and transmogrifications. (Even 20,000 or 30,000 degrees K is enough; anything over 15,000 K. will do.) Small rocks never create that kind of heat, even at 40 km/s, but a one kilometer object is essentially irresistible. Its velocity is undiminished by the so-called resistance of the atmosphere. Not only can the billions of quadrillions of air molecules NOT get out of the way of that big s.o.b., their frantic and chaotic attempt to wiggle free is exactly what generates that high temperature plasma. Now, if I wanted to spend all night curled up with a calculator converting degrees K. to EV, estimating and re-estimating x-ray production, I could -- nah, I couldn't. Isn't what computers are for? Actually, Boslough's model on the computers at Sandia predicts these high-temperature plasmas, but I don't know if he calculated x-ray production or its effect on the atmosphere or not... He calculated these high-temperature plasmas in a small (34 meter) body, so what would a 1000-meter body do? Considerably more... http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc1996/pdf/1068.pdf INTERACTING ATMOSPHERIC PLUMES FROM BOLIDE SWARMS; M.B. Boslough and D.A. Crawford, Sandia National Laboratories, Albuquerque, NM 87 185-0820 Actually, a one-kilometer body would likely produce a substantial isotopic productive effect if it merely GRAZED the atmosphere good and deep. The final impact also produces such plasmas but they are, well, quenched by all the matter that envelopes them and the temperatures thermalize downward rapidly. It's possible that more isotope production comes from the entry than the impact. People suggested increases in carbon and beryllium isotopes; my guess would be carbon isotopes (present in the atmosphere) and not beryllium (not atmospheric). We have nitrogen, oxygen, argon, carbon available in the atmosphere (in decreasing order). Finding traces of the decays is the problem. Carbon is only useful because living things fix samples of carbon isotopes. As for the continual variations in the carbon record, we are only estimating which sources of variation in radiocarbon isotopes account for which variations in the record. If we are excluding a potential source from consideration, naturally enough, it does not show up in the record! Whether it is possible to filter out abrupt events and demonstrate this thesis of impacts producing radiocarbon spikes, I cannot say. Willard Libby thought he detected a spike from Tunguska, but his long-ago analyis has been disputed (like everything else about Tunguska). Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: E.P. Grondine epgrond...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 10:42 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Neutron freeing in
