[meteorite-list] Biography of Oscar E. Monnig
Oscar E. Monnig (1902-1999), lawyer by training, worked his entire life in his family's wholesale and retail business in Fort Worth, Texas, to finally become CEO of the same company. He began collecting meteorites in the early 1930s. Autodidact, he amassed one of the most important private meteorite collections of the 20th century and played a significant role in the Meteoritics community. On his spare time, he helped recover new meteorite falls and old finds, some of which may have been lost to science without his thorough investigations... READ MORE @ http://www.thetricottetcollection.com/bio_MonnigOE.html The Tricottet Collection (Historic Minerals, Fossils Meteorites) http://www.thetricottetcollection.com/ http://www.facebook.com/TheTricottetCollection http://twitter.com/TricottetColl# __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Biography of Oscar E. Monnig
Splendid investigative contribution to your Tricottet website, Arnauld, compliment and thanks for sharing. Although not being specialized on historic falls I'm glad enough to keep a small Winona fragment with Monnig provenance in my collection. Best regards, Matthias P.S. Hopfully this will make it to the list as a short thank to Jack Schrader after having received from him a wonderful little complete stone of his fine NWA 6721 lunar feldpathic breccia unfortunately never did so. - Original Message - From: The Tricottet Collection tricottetc...@live.com To: MeteoriteList meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 10:34 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Biography of Oscar E. Monnig Oscar E. Monnig (1902-1999), lawyer by training, worked his entire life in his family's wholesale and retail business in Fort Worth, Texas, to finally become CEO of the same company. He began collecting meteorites in the early 1930s. Autodidact, he amassed one of the most important private meteorite collections of the 20th century and played a significant role in the Meteoritics community. On his spare time, he helped recover new meteorite falls and old finds, some of which may have been lost to science without his thorough investigations... READ MORE @ http://www.thetricottetcollection.com/bio_MonnigOE.html The Tricottet Collection (Historic Minerals, Fossils Meteorites) http://www.thetricottetcollection.com/ http://www.facebook.com/TheTricottetCollection http://twitter.com/TricottetColl# __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Hinweis von ESET Smart Security, Signaturdatenbank-Version 6474 (20110918) __ E-Mail wurde geprüft mit ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] NASA Announces 15th Undersea Exploration Mission Date And Crew
Sept. 19, 2011 J.D. Harrington/ Michael J. Braukus Headquarters, Washington 202-358-5241/1979 j.d.harring...@nasa.gov/michael.j.brau...@nasa.gov Brandi Dean Johnson Space Center, Houston 281-483-5111 brandi.k.d...@nasa.gov RELEASE: 11-309 NASA ANNOUNCES 15TH UNDERSEA EXPLORATION MISSION DATE AND CREW WASHINGTON -- An international crew of astronauts will venture into the Atlantic Ocean on Oct. 17 to test innovative solutions to engineering challenges during a crewed mission to an asteroid. NASA astronaut and former International Space Station crew member Shannon Walker will lead the 15th expedition of NASA Extreme Environment Mission Operations (NEEMO), a13-day undersea mission aboard the Aquarius Underwater Laboratory near Key Largo, Fla. Aquarius is owned by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) and operated by the University of North Carolina, Wilmington. The NEEMO crew also includes Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency astronaut Takuya Onishi and Canadian Space Agency astronaut David Saint-Jacques. They are members of the 2009 NASA astronaut class. Rounding out the crew is Steven Squyres of Cornell University, James Talacek and Nate Bender of the University of North Carolina, Wilmington. Squyres is the scientific principal investigator for the Mars Exploration Rover Project. Talacek and Bender are professional aquanauts. In addition, NASA astronauts Stan Love, Richard Arnold and Mike Gernhardt, all veteran spacewalkers, will participate in the NEEMO mission from the DeepWorker submersible, which they will pilot. The DeepWorker is a small submarine used as an underwater stand-in for the Space Exploration Vehicle, which might someday be used to explore the surface of an asteroid. Jeremy Hansen and Jeanette Epps, members of the 2009 astronaut class, are the capsule communicators for the mission. Hansen is from the Canadian Space Agency, and Epps from NASA. To request interviews with the NEEMO 15 crew during the mission, contact Brandi Dean at brandi.k.d...@nasa.gov; Julie Simard of the Canadian Space Agency at 450-926-4370; Takefumi Wakamatsu of the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency at 281-792-7486; or Fred Gorell of NOAA at 301-734-1010. NEEMO 15 will be the first of the undersea missions to simulate a visit to an asteroid. In May, a team of aquanauts set the stage for the tests by working through some of the concepts in an effort to improve efficiency. NEEMO 15 will require complex choreography between the submarines and aquanauts living and working in their undersea home, said Bill Todd, NEEMO project manager. Researching the challenges of exploring an asteroid surface in the undersea realm will be exciting for fans of exploration pioneers Cousteau and Armstrong alike. NEEMO 15 will investigate three aspects of a mission to an asteroid: how to anchor to the surface; how to move around; and how best to collect data. Unlike the moon or Mars, an asteroid would have little, if any, gravity to hold astronauts or vehicles, so an anchor will be necessary. NEEMO 15 will evaluate different anchoring methods and how to connect the multiple anchors to form pathways. The aquanauts and engineers will evaluate different strategies for deploying instruments and moving along a surface without gravity. For more information about NEEMO and links to follow the mission on Facebook and Twitter, visit: http://www.nasa.gov/neemo For more information about NASA field tests, visit: http://www.nasa.gov/exploration/analogs -end- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Tests Under Way On The Sunshield For NASA'S Webb Telescope
Sept. 19, 2011 Trent J. Perrotto Headquarters, Washington 202-358-0321 trent.j.perro...@nasa.gov Mary Blake Northrop Grumman, Redondo Beach, Calif. 310-812-6291 mary.bl...@ngc.com RELEASE: 11-311 TESTS UNDER WAY ON THE SUNSHIELD FOR NASA'S WEBB TELESCOPE WASHINGTON -- NASA is testing an element of the sunshield that will protect the James Webb Space Telescope's mirrors and instruments during its mission to observe the most distant objects in the universe. The sunshield will consist of five tennis court-sized layers to allow the Webb telescope to cool to its cryogenic operating temperature of minus 387.7 degrees Fahrenheit (40 Kelvin). Testing began early this month at ManTech International Corp.'s Nexolve facility in Huntsville, Ala., using flight-like material for the sunshield, a full-scale test frame and hardware attachments. The test sunshield layer is made of Kapton, a very thin, high-performance plastic with a reflective metallic coating, similar to a Mylar balloon. Each sunshield layer is less than half the thickness of a sheet of paper. It is stitched together like a quilt from more than 52 individual pieces because manufacturers do not make Kapton sheets as big as a tennis court. The tests are expected to be completed in two weeks. The conclusion of testing on this full size layer will be the final step of the sunshield's development program and provides the confidence and experience to manufacture the five flight layers, said Keith Parrish, Webb Sunshield manager at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md. During testing, engineers use a high-precision laser radar to measure the layer every few inches at room temperature and pressure, creating a 3D map of the material surface, which is curved in multiple directions. The map will be compared to computer models to see if the material behaved as predicted, and whether critical clearances with adjacent hardware are achieved. The test will be done on all five layers to give engineers a precise idea of how the entire sunshield will behave once in orbit. Last year, a one-third-scale model of the sunshield was tested in a chamber that simulated the extreme temperatures it will experience in space. The test confirmed the sunshield will allow the telescope to cool to its operating temperature. After the full-size sunshield layers complete testing and model analysis, they will be sent to Northrop Grumman in Redondo Beach Calif., where engineers verify the process of how the layers will unfurl in space. There the sunshield layers will be folded, much like a parachute, so they can be safely stowed for launch. The Webb is the world's next-generation space observatory and successor to the Hubble Space Telescope. The most powerful space telescope ever built, Webb will provide images of the very first galaxies ever formed, and explore planets around distant stars. The Webb is a joint project of NASA, the European Space Agency and the Canadian Space Agency. For more information and related images, visit: http://www.nasa.gov/topics/technology/features/sunshield-test.html For more information about the James Webb Space Telescope, visit: http://www.jwst.nasa.gov -end- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] NASA Space Junk to Hit This Week
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/nasa-satellite-expected-to-hit-earth-this-week/2011/09/18/gIQARnpVdK_story.html?hpid=z3 NASA satellite expected to hit Earth this week: By Joel Achenbach, The sky is not falling. A 12,500-pound NASA satellite the size of a school bus is, however. It's the Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite, or UARS - YOU-arz - and it's currently tumbling in orbit and succumbing to Earth's gravity. It will crash to the surface Friday. Loading... Comments a.. Weigh In b.. Corrections? Graphic A NASA satellite is expected to re-enter Earth's atmosphere later this week. Gallery ?A look at the work of private space companies that will attempt to fill the hole left by the end of NASA's shuttle program. More on this Story a.. NASA satellite expected to hit earth b.. NASA launches twin spacecraft to the moon c.. Astronomers announce discovery of 50 new planets d.. Diamond planet discovered by astronomers View all Items in this Story a.. Supernova is brightest in decades b.. Orion space shuttle begins to take shape c.. Innovator of the Week: NASA vs. China d.. Read more news and ideas on Innovations e.. Read more on Health, Environment and Science Or maybe Thursday. Or Saturday. Out-of-control crashing satellites don't lend themselves to exact estimates even for the precision-minded folks at NASA. The uncertainty about the when makes the where all the trickier, because a small change in the timing of the reentry translates into thousands of miles of difference in the crash site. As of the moment, NASA says the 35-foot-long satellite will crash somewhere between 57 degrees north latitude and 57 degrees south latitude - a projected crash zone that covers most of the planet, and particularly the inhabited parts. In this hemisphere, that includes everyone living between northern Newfoundland and the frigid ocean beyond the last point of land in South America. Polar bears and Antarctic scientists are safe. It's the biggest piece of NASA space junk to fall to Earth in more than 30 years. It should create a light show. The satellite will partially burn up during reentry and, by NASA's calculation, break into about 100 pieces, creating fireballs that should be visible even in daytime. An estimated 26 of those pieces will survive the re-entry burn and will spray themselves in a linear debris field 500 miles long. The largest chunk should weigh about 300 pounds. As the Friday-ish crash gets closer, NASA will refine its estimate of timing and location, but the fudge factor will remain high. There are too many variations on solar activity which affect the atmosphere, the drag on the vehicle, said Nicholas Johnson, chief scientist for orbital debris at NASA. He said that when NASA estimates that the satellite is two hours away from hitting Earth, there will still be a margin of error of 25 minutes. That equates to plus or minus 5,000 miles. That's a lot of real estate, he said. The good news is that UARS will probably splatter into the open ocean, because Earth is a water planet. And humans, for all their sprawl, occupy a very limited portion of its surface. NASA did a calculation of the odds that someone would be struck by UARS debris. It's very unlikely: about a 1-in-3,200 chance that one person somewhere in the world would be hit. That's not the odds for any specific person (say, a reader of this story), but for the entire human population, which is about 7 billion. Used fuel tanks and rocket bodies fall to Earth frequently, Johnson said, and in over 50 years of these things coming back around the world, no one has ever been hurt. There has never been any significant property damage. The satellite was launched on the space shuttle Discovery in 1991 and spent 14 years studying the atmosphere as part of an effort to understand, among other things, the human influence on climate change. It measured chemicals that damage the ozone layer, aerosols from Mount Pinatubo and changes in solar radiation that affect the upper atmosphere. But NASA decided in 2005 that UARS's work had become redundant to that performed by other satellites, and it received its scientific pink slip. Left alone, it would have orbited for an additional 25 years or so as a large piece of space junk in the increasingly crowded region known as Low Earth Orbit, but NASA was able to alter the satellite's orbit to bring it to the surface sooner. In 2007, a small meteor hit UARS in orbit and knocked off four pieces but didn't change its motion significantly. The granddaddy of crashing NASA satellites was Skylab, which was 15 times the size of UARS and rained charred chunks on the Indian Ocean and western Australia in 1979. inShare Graphic A NASA satellite is expected to re-enter Earth's atmosphere later this week. Gallery ?A look at the work of private space companies that will attempt to fill the hole left by the
Re: [meteorite-list] Ad. special offer at amazon.com on gold polished cube $8.00, yes thats right 8 dollars.
I'll second that. Bill From: meteorsee...@cox.net Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 22:10:41 -0700 To: rexsca...@comcast.net CC: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ad. special offer at amazon.com on gold polished cube $8.00, yes thats right 8 dollars. All, Just wanted to say that the offer for the scale cubes was one that should not have been passed up. They are of very fine quality, well constructed, and I had very prompt service. Thanks for the fine service you provide to the list on this offer. Jason Snyder Amateur Meteorite Hunter (Nobody Important) On Sep 7, 2011, at 8:16 PM, rexsca...@comcast.net wrote: special limited deal on polished gold scale cubes. (1 per person only) 8 Dollars plus standard Amazon.com shipping cost. They have the nicest Aesthetics of any cubes. (look at listing to see what I mean) I need to do this So I can get my father inlaws new amazon.com account a minimum number of sales so he qualifies to sell in the toy category for the holidays. Limited one per person. (the number for sale is capped at about 20 cubes) They will be shipped within 1 day of getting the order. In case you care he sells custom made brass railroad parts for trains and lights. Amazon.com requires like 20 sales in the next few weeks. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005LRSL6C/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8meseller or just type 1cm scale cube at amazon.com thats me So buy a polished gold scale cube at a price you will never see again and help my father inlaws amazon.com account achieve its min number of sales before the deadline. -Rex Scates seller of scale objects, tungsten carbide rings,fire opal inlay jewelry, and other misc things. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] NASA's WISE Raises Doubt About Asteroid Family Believed Responsible for Dinosaur Extinction
Sept. 19, 2011 Trent J. Perrotto Headquarters, Washington 202-358-0321 trent.j.perro...@nasa.gov Whitney Clavin Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. 818-354-4673 whitney.cla...@jpl.nasa.gov RELEASE: 11-308 NASA'S WISE RAISES DOUBT ABOUT ASTEROID FAMILY BELIEVED RESPONSIBLE FOR DINOSAUR EXTINCTION WASHINGTON -- Observations from NASA's Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer (WISE) mission indicate the family of asteroids some believed was responsible for the demise of the dinosaurs is not likely the culprit, keeping the case open on one of Earth's greatest mysteries. While scientists are confident a large asteroid crashed into Earth approximately 65 million years ago, leading to the extinction of dinosaurs and some other lifeforms on our planet, they do not know exactly where the asteroid came from or how it made its way to Earth. A 2007 study using visible-light data from ground-based telescopes first suggested the remnant of a huge asteroid, known as Baptistina, as a possible suspect. According to that theory, Baptistina crashed into another asteroid in the main belt between Mars and Jupiter about 160 million years ago. The collision sent shattered pieces as big as mountains flying. One of those pieces was believed to have impacted Earth, causing the dinosaurs' extinction. Since this scenario was first proposed, evidence developed that the so-called Baptistina family of asteroids was not the responsible party. With the new infrared observations from WISE, astronomers say Baptistina may finally be ruled out. As a result of the WISE science team's investigation, the demise of the dinosaurs remains in the cold case files, said Lindley Johnson, program executive for the Near Earth Object (NEO) Observation Program at NASA Headquarters in Washington. The original calculations with visible light estimated the size and reflectivity of the Baptistina family members, leading to estimates of their age, but we now know those estimates were off. With infrared light, WISE was able to get a more accurate estimate, which throws the timing of the Baptistina theory into question. WISE surveyed the entire celestial sky twice in infrared light from January 2010 to February 2011. The asteroid-hunting portion of the mission, called NEOWISE, used the data to catalogue more than 157,000 asteroids in the main belt and discovered more than 33,000 new ones. Visible light reflects off an asteroid. Without knowing how reflective the surface of the asteroid is, it's hard to accurately establish size. Infrared observations allow a more accurate size estimate. They detect infrared light coming from the asteroid itself, which is related to the body's temperature and size. Once the size is known, the object's reflectivity can be re-calculated by combining infrared with visible-light data. The NEOWISE team measured the reflectivity and the size of about 120,000 asteroids in the main belt, including 1,056 members of the Baptistina family. The scientists calculated the original parent Baptistina asteroid actually broke up closer to 80 million years ago, half as long as originally proposed. This calculation was possible because the size and reflectivity of the asteroid family members indicate how much time would have been required to reach their current locations -- larger asteroids would not disperse in their orbits as fast as smaller ones. The results revealed a chunk of the original Baptistina asteroid needed to hit Earth in less time than previously believed, in just about 15 million years, to cause the extinction of the dinosaurs. This doesn't give the remnants from the collision very much time to move into a resonance spot, and get flung down to Earth 65 million years ago, said Amy Mainzer, a study co-author and the principal investigator of NEOWISE at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in Pasadena. Calif. This process is thought to normally take many tens of millions of years. Resonances are areas in the main belt where gravity nudges from Jupiter and Saturn can act like a pinball machine to fling asteroids out of the main belt and into the region near Earth. The asteroid family that produced the dinosaur-killing asteroid remains at large. Evidence that a 10-kilometer asteroid impacted Earth 65 million years ago includes a huge, crater-shaped structure in the Gulf of Mexico and rare minerals in the fossil record, which are common in meteorites but seldom found in Earth's crust. In addition to the Baptistina results, the NEOWISE study shows various main belt asteroid families have similar reflective properties. The team hopes to use NEOWISE data to disentangle families that overlap and trace their histories. We are working on creating an asteroid family tree of sorts, said Joseph Masiero, the lead author of the study. We are starting to refine our picture of how the asteroids in the main belt smashed
[meteorite-list] AD - Nice Buzzard Coulee
Good afternoon I have added a very nice 26.3g Buzzard Coulee stone to my Webshots album. Very fresh, ~98% black fusion crust, secondary on backside with some roll-over lipping. Priced at $230, includes original export permit. Please contact me off-list. Thank you. http://community.webshots.com/album/569165160RMTnOx?start=12 Ryan Pawelski -- fallingfusion.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] POP QUIZ ANSWER
Hello Listers I would like to thank everyone that submitted their answers for this weeks POP QUIZ FRIDAYS. Question In what year were chondrules first discovered in aerolites aka meteorites? Answer 1799 I am sorry but no one got the question right. But all hope is not lost cause there is still a winner. All the people that sent in their answer sent in 1802( even the best of the best sent in this answer and I spoke with some people and suggested I make a winner from the 10th incorrect answers cause it was so close). Good guess, I would have to say that was the year that was the first publication that first talked about spherical granulated substances found in aerolites(meteorites), but was not when they were first observed. In Ernst Florens Friedrich Chladni (1756–1827) and the origins of modern meteorite research by Ursula B. MARVIN Marvin points out the first incident a scientist first observed these chondrules in a meteorite. Benares, India, 1798 A dazzling ball of fire exploded across a serene evening sky near Benares, India, at 8 P.M. on December 19, 1798, heralding a large shower of stones. Early in 1799, Sir Joseph Banks in London received a letter from John Lloyd Williams (about 1765–1838) in India describing the fireball and the appearance of the stones. All of them, he said, had hard black crusts like varnish or bitumen and whitish, gritty interiors with many small spherical bodies interspersed with bright shining grains of metal or pyrite. Williams (in Howard 1802: 179) concluded: I shall only observe, that it is well known there are no volcanoes on the continent of India; and, as far as I can learn, no stones have been met with in the earth, in that part of the world, which bear the smallest resemblance to those above described. On reading the letter, Sir Joseph was struck by the apparent similarities between the Benares stones and the samples he had obtained from the falls at Siena and Wold Cottage. Judging that it was time for serious scientific investigations, he handed his two samples to the accomplished young chemist, Edward C. Howard (1774– 1816) and asked him to analyze them. In December 1800, Banks presented the Copley Medal, the Royal Society’s highest honor, to Howard for his discovery of the fulminate of mercury. In his presentation speech, Banks made it clear that he believed a new field of research was opening (Sears 1975: 218): Mr. Howard . . . is now employed in the analysis of certain stones, generations in the air by fiery meteors, the component parts of which will probably open a new field of speculation and discussion to mineralogists as well as to meteorologists. source http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1996M%26PS...31..545M PAGE 30 Here is another account of Williams work with the Benares fall and observations At length, in 1799, an account of stones fallen in the East Indies was sent to the president, by John Lloyd Williams, Esq. which, by its unquestionable authenticity, and by the striking resemblance it bears to other accounts of fallen stones, mult remove all prejudice. Mr. Williams has since drawn up the following more detailed narrative of facts. Account of the Explosion of a Meteor, near Benares, in the East Explosion of a Indies; and of the falling of some Stones at the fame Time, me^°r t^ about 14 Miles from lluii City. By John Lloyd Williams, falling of tome Esq. F. R. S. stones «the fame time. A circumstance of so extraordinary a nature as the fall of stones from the heavens, could not fail to excite the wonder, and attract the attention of every inquisitive mind. Among a superstitious people, any preternatural appearance is viewed with silent awe and reverence; attributing the causes to the will of the Supreme Being, they do not presume to judge the means by which they were produced, nor the purposes for which they were ordered; and we are naturally led to suspect the influence of prejudice and superstition, in their descriptions of such phenomena; my inquiries were therefore chiefly directed to the Europeans, who were but thinly dispersed about that part of the country. The information I obtained was, that on the i 9th of De- Narrative, cember, 179S, about eight o'clock in the evening, a very luminous meteor was observed in the heavens, by the inhabitants of Benares and the parts adjacent, in the form of a large ball LarEe ta of - ,. , . , , , , , , ,. fire with noise Oi fire; that it was accompanied by a loud noile, reiembling thumbs. thunder; and that a number of stones were said to have fallen from it, near Krakhut, a village on the north side of the river Goomty, about 14 miles from the city of Benares. The meteor appeared in the western part of the hemisphere, and was but a short time visible: it was observed by several Europeans, as well as natives, in different parts of the country
Re: [meteorite-list] POP QUIZ ANSWER
Shawn wrote, refering to the application of the word chondrule: But I would like to add it wasnt till 1869 that the word chondrules was coined by Gustav Rose. This is an error, Shawn. It was alledgedly 1863. And in 1864, we had the first observation by a scientist of a chondrule, who invented the microscope for thin sections and made true scientific observation on meteorites. That is why the answer should be 1864. This is the period that a better understand was achieved that the granules we now call chondrules were distinguished petrologically as we do today (just look at the publications of science vs. layterms today when researching chondrules). While other scientists may have mentioned spherical or granulated things and made various comments relating to them, specific or no so much so, that is not a clear scientific leap by any means regarding chrondrules in my opinion. When I am in strewn fields working with peasants, they are quite sharp at recognizing chondrules in many cases, and without anyone pointing them out to them. So I would hardly credit your reference with anything of value except anectotal. Once you find a not too cooked chondrite, it's as obvious as pointing out that a face has a nose and eyes. Shawn wrote: Marvin points out the first incident a scientist first observed these chondrules in a meteorite. Does she point this out and suggest it was the first incidence of observed chondrules? Or does she mention an incident? It is foolish to ascribe too much significance to the indirect reference you happened to find IMO. No time to go through your document link, but I suspect you are making a biased interpretation of this passing comment because you already know something the original investigators were clueless about. While it has the word spherical, it is hard for me to believe that this was the first reference though it is very clear. The common knowledge before that was a sandstone appearance; and prior to your reference year, granules were defnitely pointed out. I think the jury is still out on this one, since it would require a complete collation in all languages to determine who said what and when, rather than make such a sweeping statement without giving Troili (1766) and others more credit in a level context. Kindest wishes, and of course, (kindest opinions may differ) Doug -Original Message- From: Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:17 pm Subject: [meteorite-list] POP QUIZ ANSWER Hello Listers I would like to thank everyone that submitted their answers for this weeks POP QUIZ FRIDAYS. Question In what year were chondrules first discovered in aerolites aka meteorites? Answer 1799 I am sorry but no one got the question right. But all hope is not lost cause there is still a winner. All the people that sent in their answer sent in 1802( even the best of the best sent in this answer and I spoke with some people and suggested I make a winner from the 10th incorrect answers cause it was so close). Good guess, I would have to say that was the year that was the first publication that first talked about spherical granulated substances found in aerolites(meteorites), but was not when they were first observed. In Ernst Florens Friedrich Chladni (1756–1827) and the origins of modern meteorite research by Ursula B. MARVIN Marvin points out the first incident a scientist first observed these chondrules in a meteorite. Benares, India, 1798 A dazzling ball of fire exploded across a serene evening sky near Benares, India, at 8 P.M. on December 19, 1798, heralding a large shower of stones. Early in 1799, Sir Joseph Banks in London received a letter from John Lloyd Williams (about 1765–1838) in India describing the fireball and the appearance of the stones. All of them, he said, had hard black crusts like varnish or bitumen and whitish, gritty interiors with many small spherical bodies interspersed with bright shining grains of metal or pyrite. Williams (in Howard 1802: 179) concluded: I shall only observe, that it is well known there are no volcanoes on the continent of India; and, as far as I can learn, no stones have been met with in the earth, in that part of the world, which bear the smallest resemblance to those above described. On reading the letter, Sir Joseph was struck by the apparent similarities between the Benares stones and the samples he had obtained from the falls at Siena and Wold Cottage. Judging that it was time for serious scientific investigations, he handed his two samples to the accomplished young chemist, Edward C. Howard (1774– 1816) and asked him to analyze them. In December 1800, Banks presented the Copley Medal, the Royal Society’s highest honor, to Howard for his discovery of the fulminate of mercury. In his presentation speech, Banks made it clear that he believed a new
[meteorite-list] POP QUIZ ANSWER
Hello Mexico Doug and Listers, Dough you said this…. “No time to go through your document link, but I suspect you are making a biased interpretation of this passing comment because you already know something the original investigators were clueless about.” And this…….. “While other scientists may have mentioned spherical or granulated things and made various comments relating to them, specific or no so much so, that is not a clear scientific leap by any means regarding chrondrules in my opinion” Doug first off, maybe you would want to read up on some of the links I provided before you make an opinion about what has been said in history. Why don’t you give that a try and get back to me and you will see the wonders it can do for oneself when trying to rewrite history based on opinions alone. I love science and research and how one using these tools can present an educated argument on the topics of chondrules and use quotes and references to backup ones argument. Give it a try sometime :) Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html [meteorite-list] POP QUIZ ANSWER MexicoDoug mexicodoug at aim.com Mon Sep 19 20:04:23 EDT 2011 Previous message: [meteorite-list] POP QUIZ ANSWER Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Shawn wrote, refering to the application of the word chondrule: But I would like to add it wasnt till 1869 that the word chondrules was coined by Gustav Rose. This is an error, Shawn. It was alledgedly 1863. And in 1864, we had the first observation by a scientist of a chondrule, who invented the microscope for thin sections and made true scientific observation on meteorites. That is why the answer should be 1864. This is the period that a better understand was achieved that the granules we now call chondrules were distinguished petrologically as we do today (just look at the publications of science vs. layterms today when researching chondrules). While other scientists may have mentioned spherical or granulated things and made various comments relating to them, specific or no so much so, that is not a clear scientific leap by any means regarding chrondrules in my opinion. When I am in strewn fields working with peasants, they are quite sharp at recognizing chondrules in many cases, and without anyone pointing them out to them. So I would hardly credit your reference with anything of value except anectotal. Once you find a not too cooked chondrite, it's as obvious as pointing out that a face has a nose and eyes. Shawn wrote: Marvin points out the first incident a scientist first observed these chondrules in a meteorite. Does she point this out and suggest it was the first incidence of observed chondrules? Or does she mention an incident? It is foolish to ascribe too much significance to the indirect reference you happened to find IMO. No time to go through your document link, but I suspect you are making a biased interpretation of this passing comment because you already know something the original investigators were clueless about. While it has the word spherical, it is hard for me to believe that this was the first reference though it is very clear. The common knowledge before that was a sandstone appearance; and prior to your reference year, granules were defnitely pointed out. I think the jury is still out on this one, since it would require a complete collation in all languages to determine who said what and when, rather than make such a sweeping statement without giving Troili (1766) and others more credit in a level context. Kindest wishes, and of course, (kindest opinions may differ) Doug -Original Message- From: Shawn Alan photophlow at yahoo.com To: meteorite-list meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, Sep 19, 2011 4:17 pm Subject: [meteorite-list] POP QUIZ ANSWER Hello Listers I would like to thank everyone that submitted their answers for this weeks POP QUIZ FRIDAYS. Question In what year were chondrules first discovered in aerolites aka meteorites? Answer 1799 I am sorry but no one got the question right. But all hope is not lost cause there is still a winner. All the people that sent in their answer sent in 1802( even the best of the best sent in this answer and I spoke with some people and suggested I make a winner from the 10th incorrect answers cause it was so close). Good guess, I would have to say that was the year that was the first publication that first talked about spherical granulated substances found in aerolites(meteorites), but was not when they were first observed. In Ernst Florens Friedrich Chladni (1756–1827) and the origins of modern meteorite research by Ursula B. MARVIN Marvin points out the first incident a scientist first observed these chondrules in a
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[meteorite-list] AD: Outstanding Meteorite Auctions 3 Day! Time to Wheel and Deal....
Hello, Time to wheel and deal...make me some offers if you have been watching some particular pieces... I am in a selling mood! THANKS! ALL SALE ITEMS HERE: http://stores.ebay.com/voyage-botanica-natural-history ALL AUCTIONS HERE: http://shop.ebay.com:80/merchant/meteorite-collector_W0QQLHQ5fAuctionZ1QQ Best Wishes Michael Cottingham __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] POP QUIZ ANSWER
Re: In what year were chondrules first discovered in aerolites aka meteorites? Hi Shawn, Shyawn, you clearly didn't understand what I was sayingt, so I'll be a bit clearer: - Firstly, you left out the most important sentence in Williams' description, because you are quoting third or fourth hand and Marvin wasn't commenting on the first use of chondrules n or trying to list every personal communication of the period. So I'll take the liberty of helping you despite your stupid comment telling me to read more. The description continues: The spherical bodies were much harder than the rest of the stone. That said: - You did not provide any first hand referencfe that chondrules were *first* discovered in 1799. - You did not provide a quote that Ursula Marvin supported that the Benares description was the first incidence of a description of chondrules. - You got the year wrong (1869) that the term chondrule was coined (1863). - You zero in on the word spherical. Well, chondrules in meteorites are more frequently not spherical. What remnants you find in meteorites like Siena...are just granular, or remnants. Discovery has nothing to do with obnserving a spherical one vs. a squashed, crushed typical one. Most have been altered. That is my opinion, but strongly so, Hence, describing granules without calling them spherical only means that Benares had less deformed chondrules (and it was a great description in general). Sorry, but the assumptions were just way out. The first place it is in print (1802) will be a reasonable occurence for the concept of spherical granules, as opposed to regular granules. Since the 1799 date is not a publication date, and it is clear that plenty of correspondence was being exchanged, credit for publication goes to Howard so far, who though enough of this to publish. Back in the 1700's no one had a clue that chondrules were condensates or any other context to ascribe importance to them. When people looked at spherical, granular, or any other rounded form, that was clearly observed earlier, definitely in 1766 by Troili. The fact that the word spherical vs. granule was used in your reference means absolutely nothing except that more spherical chondrules occur in Benares than do in, eg. Albareto, Wold Cottage, etc. Chondrules were first understood in 1864. In that year it was first theorized that this peculiar structure, was a condensation product - specifically droplets of fiery rain from the Sun by Sorby, who showed they were melt products and presented that theory. That is when chondrules as a feature were discovered and lead to meteorites being a key to unlocking the solar system's formation. - As an aside: The independent account you mention from Williams has no mention of any kind of granule or chondrule. You indicate Williams discovered chondrules. A critical read of the information you provided suggest to me that in what you posted, that it was Sir Joseph who had already observed this in the older falls. And it was Sir Joseph who likely noted that this was a common feature of meteorites, based on his prior observations, not Williams who provided him with additional data, which was the basis of comparson. OK, enough ... Kindest wishes Doug -Original Message- From: Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:01 pm Subject: [meteorite-list] POP QUIZ ANSWER Hello Mexico Doug and Listers, Dough you said this…. “No time to go through your document link, but I suspect you are making a biased interpretation of this passing comment because you already know something the original investigators were clueless about.” And this…….. “While other scientists may have mentioned spherical or granulated things and made various comments relating to them, specific or no so much so, that is not a clear scientific leap by any means regarding chrondrules in my opinion” Doug first off, maybe you would want to read up on some of the links I provided before you make an opinion about what has been said in history. Why don’t you give that a try and get back to me and you will see the wonders it can do for oneself when trying to rewrite history based on opinions alone. I love science and research and how one using these tools can present an educated argument on the topics of chondrules and use quotes and references to backup ones argument. Give it a try sometime :) Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html [meteorite-list] POP QUIZ ANSWER MexicoDoug mexicodoug at aim.com Mon Sep 19 20:04:23 EDT 2011 Previous message: [meteorite-list] POP QUIZ ANSWER Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] - --- Shawn wrote, refering to the application of the word chondrule: But I would like to add it wasnt
Re: [meteorite-list] POP QUIZ ANSWER
G'Day All I'm really liking this discussion. I love the information and the knowledge that I'm obtaining from this. Thanks Shawn and Doug Cheers John -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of MexicoDoug Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 7:36 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] POP QUIZ ANSWER Re: In what year were chondrules first discovered in aerolites aka meteorites? Hi Shawn, Shyawn, you clearly didn't understand what I was sayingt, so I'll be a bit clearer: - Firstly, you left out the most important sentence in Williams' description, because you are quoting third or fourth hand and Marvin wasn't commenting on the first use of chondrules n or trying to list every personal communication of the period. So I'll take the liberty of helping you despite your stupid comment telling me to read more. The description continues: The spherical bodies were much harder than the rest of the stone. That said: - You did not provide any first hand referencfe that chondrules were *first* discovered in 1799. - You did not provide a quote that Ursula Marvin supported that the Benares description was the first incidence of a description of chondrules. - You got the year wrong (1869) that the term chondrule was coined (1863). - You zero in on the word spherical. Well, chondrules in meteorites are more frequently not spherical. What remnants you find in meteorites like Siena...are just granular, or remnants. Discovery has nothing to do with obnserving a spherical one vs. a squashed, crushed typical one. Most have been altered. That is my opinion, but strongly so, Hence, describing granules without calling them spherical only means that Benares had less deformed chondrules (and it was a great description in general). Sorry, but the assumptions were just way out. The first place it is in print (1802) will be a reasonable occurence for the concept of spherical granules, as opposed to regular granules. Since the 1799 date is not a publication date, and it is clear that plenty of correspondence was being exchanged, credit for publication goes to Howard so far, who though enough of this to publish. Back in the 1700's no one had a clue that chondrules were condensates or any other context to ascribe importance to them. When people looked at spherical, granular, or any other rounded form, that was clearly observed earlier, definitely in 1766 by Troili. The fact that the word spherical vs. granule was used in your reference means absolutely nothing except that more spherical chondrules occur in Benares than do in, eg. Albareto, Wold Cottage, etc. Chondrules were first understood in 1864. In that year it was first theorized that this peculiar structure, was a condensation product - specifically droplets of fiery rain from the Sun by Sorby, who showed they were melt products and presented that theory. That is when chondrules as a feature were discovered and lead to meteorites being a key to unlocking the solar system's formation. - As an aside: The independent account you mention from Williams has no mention of any kind of granule or chondrule. You indicate Williams discovered chondrules. A critical read of the information you provided suggest to me that in what you posted, that it was Sir Joseph who had already observed this in the older falls. And it was Sir Joseph who likely noted that this was a common feature of meteorites, based on his prior observations, not Williams who provided him with additional data, which was the basis of comparson. OK, enough ... Kindest wishes Doug -Original Message- From: Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, Sep 19, 2011 9:01 pm Subject: [meteorite-list] POP QUIZ ANSWER Hello Mexico Doug and Listers, Dough you said this . No time to go through your document link, but I suspect you are making a biased interpretation of this passing comment because you already know something the original investigators were clueless about. And this .. While other scientists may have mentioned spherical or granulated things and made various comments relating to them, specific or no so much so, that is not a clear scientific leap by any means regarding chrondrules in my opinion Doug first off, maybe you would want to read up on some of the links I provided before you make an opinion about what has been said in history. Why dont you give that a try and get back to me and you will see the wonders it can do for oneself when trying to rewrite history based on opinions alone. I love science and research and how one using these tools can present an educated argument on the topics of chondrules and use quotes and references to backup ones argument. Give it a try sometime :) Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore
Re: [meteorite-list] POP QUIZ ANSWER
Thanks John for the kind comment to us both, it did the trick. Sir Joseph is really the key here, being the president of the Society it is he that received stones from several sources and first recognized the common characteristics thet had ... and one may conjecture he was the first to understand that some meteorites were chondritic, which is the real leap, finding the common charistics to typify meteorites. Also, I'd just like to point out that the detailed description from Williams was actually published stand alone in August 1802, six months after Howard read his joint results (with Count de Bournon) the London Philosophical Society and also covered his results along with Williams comments in that talk. Thus - many roads lead to 1802 and to Howard (who did the analysis prior to 1802) ... and other unnamed mineralogists/chemists doing this which Williams, a lawyer is simply providing a narrative and is very capable at that. The important unnamed minerologist was Count de Bournon who already had some familiarity with meteorites. He was the first to describe chondrules and if one is looking for a discoverer in the sense of a description vs. an faces have noses sort of obvious fact, the Count first described them correctly as globular, either perfectly, or elliptical, etc.,in his work through Howard, in February 1802, and if we are giving credit for characterization of a chondrule, he is the winner; if not it is Sorby who in 1864 determined they were condensed products. Count de Bournon (via Howard: Feb 1802) One of these substances which is in great abundance appears in the form of small bodies, some of which are perfectly globular, others are elongated or elliptical. They are of various sizes, from that of a small pin's head to that of a pea, or nearly so: some of them, however, but very few, are of a larger size. The colour of these small globules is gray, sometimes inclining very much to brown: and they are completely opaque. They may, with great ease, be broken in all directions: their fracture is conchoid, and shews a fine, smooth, compact grain, having a small degree of lustre, resembling in some measure that of enamel. Their hardness is such, that, being rubbed upon glass, they act upon it in a slight degree; this action is sufficient to take off its polish, but not to cut it: they give faint sparks, when struck with steel.results (including his claim on chondrule 'discovery') to a scientific audience as customary which was summarized for recording, and after Williams has the benefit to get feedback from Howard which influenced what he wrote. Thus - many roads lead to 1802 and to Howard (who did the analysis prior to 1802) ... and other unnamed mineralogists/chemists doing this which Williams, a lawyer is simply providing a narrative of what he has learned and does not try to be a scientist. It is of course interesting to note that Williams sent a preliminary account priorly, 1799, ... however we do not have a place to read the exact contents of that but if the additional narratives sent by Shawn is anything like it, it is possible no mention of the spheirical bodies was made in that initial writing... this still needs to be properly referenced with a primary source. BTW, You can read William's reprinted complete post-Howard version here also, I found it much an easier read: The New annual register, or General repository of history, politics, and literature: to which is prefixed, a short review of the principal transactions of the present reign, Volume 23 (1803) p. 158 Page 158 Anyone interested in the complete (after Howard's work) blurb from Williams can see it all there ... however keep in mind he is summarizing what many people have told him so in that sense it is an unfootnoted work of many contributors and it is not always clear what others discovered and told him vs. his original observations if any at all. Kindest wishes Doug -Original Message- From: John.L.Cabassi j...@cabassi.net To: 'MexicoDoug' mexicod...@aim.com; meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, Sep 19, 2011 11:08 pm Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] POP QUIZ ANSWER G'Day All I'm really liking this discussion. I love the information and the knowledge that I'm obtaining from this. Thanks Shawn and Doug Cheers John -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of MexicoDoug Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 7:36 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] POP QUIZ ANSWER Re: In what year were chondrules first discovered in aerolites aka meteorites? Hi Shawn, Shyawn, you clearly didn't understand what I was sayingt, so I'll be a bit clearer: - Firstly, you left out the most important sentence in Williams' description, because you are quoting third or fourth hand and Marvin wasn't commenting
