Re: [meteorite-list] What killed the woolly mammoth? A whole bunch ofthings
What killed the woolly mammoth? That's only a small part of the tangle of the Proboscideans. The Woolly Mammoth evolved from the Steppe Mammoth about 250,000 years ago, and the Steppe Mammoth evolved from the Ancestral Mammoths about 700,000 years ago. The Ancestral Mammoths appear about 2.5-3.0 million years before that --- in Sub-Sarahan Africa! You have to admit Africa is a strange place for Woolly Mammoths to trace their family tree from, the Asian Elephants and Mammoths spitting off at about the time. The Mammoths are related to the Mastodons who appear 28 million years ago and covered every continent except Antarctica and Australia. The South American Mastodons lasted until 9000 years ago, but North American Mastodons (equally woolly) died out about 12,000 years ago, very like the Mammoths themselves. The causes cannot be same, despite the fact that the timeline is so similar, as Mammoths and Mastodons have different diets, need different terrain, environment, and climate, but they disappeared together One thing stands out, though: each successive Mammoth species was smaller than the one before it, ending with the Wrangel Mammoths who are no longer considered dwarf; they were about 2 meters at the shoulder. (Mediterranean Dwarf Mammoths were tiny, about the size of a Saint Bernard dog.) Scores of genera of giant mammals vanished from North America at the same time, with nothing much in common except that a) they were big, and b) there were suddenly humans in the neighborhood. The climate change argument is a poor one, as the climate of North America had been cycling through the usual changes of an Ice Age for some millions of years. And Man The Mighty Hunter doesn't convince me either. On the other hand, Man The Massive Environmental Changer might convince me, but there's no evidence of that in North American 12,000 years ago. Similar arguments have been raging about the megafaunal extinctions in Australia, the theory being that the massive environmental change was caused by the human use of fire, not hunting. That's been the big theory in Australia for decades, but now chronometric cores say the megafauna disappeared before fire increased, so they are back to the Mighty Hunter theory. See, they don't need a Dryas to generate lots of controversy. Poor Mammoths! Everything just ganged up on them all at once, I guess. Is that the current consensus? Did anyone ever considered that mere Giantism itself could be a self-defeating evolutionary strategy? In the long run, I mean. Giantism has been around for hundreds of millions of years, so there are lots of arguments for what a good idea it is. I think that's because we humans are always impressed by sheer bigness (Jurassic Park Syndrome). So why were the Mammoths trying to get small? There are so many things a giant can't do. It can't climb trees; it can't fly; it can't burrow; it can't live in the hills -- it doesn't function well in anything but flat terrain. There is a huge investment in huge individuals and their numbers are limited by that. Their range of livable conditions is very narrow. That's always a giant risk. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Paul H. oxytropidoce...@cox.net To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 3:49 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] What killed the woolly mammoth? A whole bunch ofthings What killed the woolly mammoth? A whole bunch of things, scientists say, Christian Science Monitor, June 12, 2012, http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2012/0612/What-killed-the-woolly-mammoth-A-whole-bunch-of-things-scientists-say.-video Woolly Mammoth Extinction Has Lessons for Modern Climate Change, ScienceDaily, June 12, 2012 http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120612144809.htm Many factors in extinction of mammoths, SBS, June 12, 2012, http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1658619/Many-factors-in-extinction-of-mammoths Study: Many factors in mammoth extinction, UPI.com, June 12, 2012 http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2012/06/12/Study-Many-factors-in-mammoth-extinction/UPI-96671339529828/?spt=hsor=sn The paper is: MacDonald, G. M., D. W. Beilman, Y. V. Kuzmin, L. A. Orlova, K. V. Kremenetski, B. Shapiro, R. K. Wayne, and B. Van Valkenburgh, 2012, Pattern of extinction of the woolly mammoth in Beringia. Nature Communications, 2012 DOI: 10.1038/ncomms1881 http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v3/n6/full/ncomms1881.html Best wishes, Paul H. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
[meteorite-list] Woolly Mammoths Gigantism
Hi Sterling K. Webb and Paul H's discussion on the disadvantages of evolved gigantism is a very good one. I would like to add one more: small organisms can be distributed world wide on tsunami debris, but larger organisms clearly cannot. This effect is happening today: http://www.laboratoryequipment.com/news-Tsunami-Debris-Carries-Potential-Invasive-Species-061112.aspx?et_cid=2692184et_rid=54630376linkid=http%3a%2f%2fwww.laboratoryequipment.com%2fnews-Tsunami-Debris-Carries-Potential-Invasive-Species-061112.aspx I hope this does not drift too much off topic. We see good evidence that big meteor impacts alter ecosystems, but every altered ecosystem doth not have a crater associated with it. Other stuff can happen, of course, and the list is long. Francis Graham __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day
Today's Meteorite Picture of the Day: Sutter's Mill Contributed by: K __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Ensisheim 2012 - want share room in Moulin
Hello Thanks to anyone who helped me to find hotel outside Ensisheim. To not waste time, I looking for someone who wish share room with me in domaine du moulin. I have reservation for double room (two separate beds) becouse then I can drink with You beer and wine. I have also reservation in Nemerich in Pulversheim but thats mean no alkohol. I dont know if I can handle this pressure out there without a beer, especially saturday evening :) Please contact me till tomorrow morning on email or send me text message to my mobil +48 (793) 567667 I plan to be tomorrow late in Ensisheim. -[ MARCIN CIMALA ]-[ I.M.C.A.#3667 ]- http://www.Meteoryty.pl marcin(at)meteoryty.pl http://www.PolandMET.com marcin(at)polandmet.com http://www.Gao-Guenie.com GSM: +48 (793) 567667 [ Member of Polish Meteoritical Society ] On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 8:20 AM, Marcin Cimala mar...@meteoryt.net wrote: Hello list Time is running low very fast and I have question. Looking for cheaper alternative to domaine du moulin hotel as Im going this year alone, and wanna cut some costs :( I know one hotel is in Battenhaim. Is there anything else ? Thanks and see some of You soon -[ MARCIN CIMALA ]-[ I.M.C.A.#3667 ]- http://www.Meteoryty.pl marcin(at)meteoryty.pl http://www.PolandMET.com marcin(at)polandmet.com http://www.Gao-Guenie.com GSM: +48 (793) 567667 [ Member of Polish Meteoritical Society ] __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] MRO HiRISE Images - June 13, 2012
MARS RECONNAISSANCE ORBITER HIRISE IMAGES June 13, 2012 o Which Crater Came First? http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_020190_1690 This image shows two craters, both approximately the same diameter but quite different in appearance otherwise. Which one might have formed first? o Sinuous Ridges in Aeolis Planum http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_026462_1740 The eroded ridges are located in a trough, while the well-preserved ridges are at higher elevation. o Wavy-Looking Layers in the North Polar Layered Deposits http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_027058_2625 These layers near the North Pole of Mars probably record global climate changes, similar to ice ages on Earth. o Bright Material along the Floor of a Trough in Noctis Labyrinthus http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_027236_1680 This HiRISE image shows an example of the bright material commonly found along the floors of some of the Noctis Labyrinthus troughs. All of the HiRISE images are archived here: http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ Information about the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter is online at http://www.nasa.gov/mro. The mission is managed by NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, a division of the California Institute of Technology, for the NASA Science Mission Directorate, Washington, D.C. Lockheed Martin Space Systems, of Denver, is the prime contractor and built the spacecraft. HiRISE is operated by the University of Arizona. Ball Aerospace and Technologies Corp., of Boulder, Colo., built the HiRISE instrument. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Solar-Powered Laser Spacecraft Could Prevent Apophis Hitting Earth in 2036
http://www.technologyreview.com/view/428165/solar-powered-laser-spacecraft-could-prevent/ Solar-Powered Laser Spacecraft Could Prevent Apophis Hitting Earth in 2036 Spacecraft equipped with lasers powered by light from the Sun are our best defence against incoming asteroids, say aerospace engineers MIT Technology Review Friday, June 8, 2012 In 2004, the Earth crossing asteroid Apophis generated much interest when astronomers announced that there was a 2.7 per cent chance that it would hit the Earth in 2029. The excitement died down when more detailed observations showed that Apophis would actually miss Earth in 2029. And yet, Apophis might still hit in 2036 or 2037--we simply cannot know until nearer the time. An important question, then, is what to do if astronomers spot Apophis coming our way--what can we do to push this 46 million tonne object away? Last year, we looked at a Chinese plan to deflect the asteroid http://www.technologyreview.com/view/425065/china-reveals-solar-sail-plan-to-prevent-apophis/ by smashing a spacecraft into it using a solar sail. Today, Massimiliano Vasile and Christie Maddock at the University of Strathclyde in Scotland reveal a plan to blast the asteroid with solar powered lasers, ablating its surface and steering it away from us. [Our] paper demonstrates how significant deïfections can be obtained with relatively small sized, easy-to-control spacecraft, they say. Laser ablation is not a new idea. The basic idea is that the material vapourised from the asteroid's surface, pushes it like rocket exhaust, generating thrust. Until now, space scientists had always thought that a job this size required a megawatt class laser, which would need to be powered by a nuclear reactor. That introduces a host of challenges, not least of which is launching such a device safely and then dealing with the huge amount of heat it produces. But Vasile and Maddock say that instead of a single large laser, a better option is to use lots of small ones--kilowatt-class lasers, which could each be powered by the Sun. The advantages are many, they say. First, the problem of dissipating heat in space is a serious one and does not scale linearly with mass. Small spacecraft are easier and cheaper to cool because a smaller percentage of their mass needs to be devoted to radiators and related equipment. Next, solar powered lasers have the obvious advantage of requiring no fuel and being far simpler and safer to launch than nuclear devices. And finally, having many small spacecraft ablating the asteroid gives greater scope for redundancy. If one goes wrong, there are several others to plug the gap. That's not to say that such a mission would be easy to mount. A significant problem for all ablation schemes is that the vaporised rock from the asteroid can end up coating the spacecraft optics and ruining their efficiency. That's particularly acute for spacecraft that must orbit close the asteroid, such as those that might use mirrors to focus the Sun's rays onto the surface, as some astronomers have suggested. But laser beams can be collimated and so aimed from much further away. That vastly reduces the risk from ablated material. Then there is the problem of asteroids with highly eccentric orbits, which are too far from the Sun for much of their orbit for solar power to be much use. In this case, Vasile and Maddock say that solar power spacecraft could still deliver a large enough kick to steer such an asteroid away from us, given enough lead time. Vasile and Maddock make no attempt to calculate the cost of such a mission or compare it to the cost of other plans. However, there's no question that the price of preventing an Apophis-sized asteroid hitting Earth pales into insignificance compared to the cost of dealing with the consequences of the impact itself. These ideas might sound like science fiction today but the only question is not whether we will ever need to put such a plan into action but when. If Apophis turns out to be heading our way in 2036, it will turn out to be extremely useful to have sketched out the details already. Ref: arxiv.org/abs/1206.1336 http://arxiv.org/abs/1206.1336: Design of a Formation of Solar Pumped Lasers for Asteroid Deflection __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term
Regine, I completely agree with you, My two cents: hammer stone is of interest to me and to many collectors I know. I have several house hitting meteorites in my collection from Cali, Thika, Guadalajara, etc with the rooftops they hit. But that goes with a particular stone. One Thika which landed in a coffee field does not in my opinion equal the Thika which went through a house rooftop and has the roof with it. To many collectors the roof piece well documented, has special value. To others perhaps not, but to each his own. However someone trying to add extra value to all Thika stones because one went through a house is his marketing and borders on a scam in my opinion.Of course in the case of Park Forest, so many stones hitting houses and buildings, cars Err made the headlines, but again, the specialness should be assigned to each stone not the hundred others that just landed on the ground To suggest every stone from Sutter's Mill is special because one hit a garage door is ludicrous. However that stone stands out among 60+ and many people are willing to pay to have a piece, or we would not have sold out in a couple of days. Michael Farmer Sent from my iPhone On Jun 12, 2012, at 10:08 AM, Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de wrote: Sorry to come up with the subject matter again, but I keep thinking about this every now and then and would like to add my two cents on it this time. I agree with the hammer fall term being misleading, and so far haven't met anyone who is very fond of it except those who actually see it as a market opportunity. On the flip side I have met a few who were seriously confused by the term: The Sylacauga police chief for example, who sent me a link to an Ebay auction, thinking the speck pictured was a piece of the rock which hit Mrs. Hodges (it was instead part of the one found by Julius McKinney, which has an interesting story by itself and, as far as I'm concerned, deserves more attention than a footnote). I'm quite keen on the stories behind hammer stones and the idea that something ancient from out there is hitting something random and creates a connection between the sublime and the mundane. Hammer fall on the other hand is simply a sales term which does the opposite of creating historical awareness: It completely overshadows all the other aspects (historical or other) of a meteorite shower. I'd find it fairly irritating if anyone used the term L'Aigle hammer fall, because one of the pieces (presumably) hit a man on the arm. A more recent example is Sutter's Mill - is it an important fall because one of the rocks struck a garage door? I feel these falls deserve different attributes in their headline, something which is perhaps attributable to all or most of the specimens of the fall, such as the historic significance, the classification, characteristics or man hours included in searching for the pieces in the strewn field. As mentioned before, I'm not referring to the actual stone which hit something, as the designation is significant in identifying the rock as being the single piece falling on something man made. Cheers, Regine __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term
Regine, MikeG, I hate to beat a dead horse but, There actually could be such a thing as a Hammer Fall. Take Carancas for example; This fall was not only observed but, it hit a man made water well and killed a couple of animals while excavating a crater. This fall is generally accepted as a Hammer Fall because we believe it was one huge stone that crashed and exploded. So, then the question is; Is this a hammer stone as well? Of coarse it is. That is IF it was indeed caused by one single stone that exploded on impact. This is a fact that is in dispute amongst Scientists. There may have been a swarm of stones that hit at once. We do have evidence of this in stones that were found that were nearly fully fusion crusted. Had it been just one single stone where did the nearly fully crusted stones come from? This lends doubt that in fact all of the stones are Hammer Stones. However, from a sales standpoint. Having one of these ultra rare fully crusted stones would not be such a bad thing to have. I would think they would be far more rare and therefore far more valuable to both the collector (museum) or Scientist for the simple reason of aesthetics and that it does make for an interesting argument about how many stones did fall. As for the use of the word Michael Blood coined Hammer. He could just of easily have used any number of other words to describe this end result. Swatter, clapper, striker or anything else one does with an object in his had while hitting something. The other really funny term is the use of the word Fall at all. I mean try to explain that to a newby? I mean after all, Aren't all meteorites Falls in the true sense of the word. How else could they have gotten here? So, the use of this term necessitates an explanation. You have to explain that not all meteorites are falls. A newby would look at you like you are nuts. The word fresh fall would make more sense but, most of the time the Fresh is left out. Even when a stone is called a fresh Fall science can only determine the time it fell within years not hour or minutes so even then... If you find a stone. How do you really know when it fell. You did find a fall but was it fresh? Or does it just look fresh? Too Funny. Best, Carl meteoritemax -- Cheers Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de wrote: Well, I'm referring to an overall suspicious odour when it comes to hammer falls on sales pages. It is so imprecise - as many other things related to it. What comes to my mind right now is that I downloaded a small jpg once from a website on hammers when I started getting interested in the historic side of meteorites. I was new to the subject and took the picture as a genuine photograph of a man from the New Concord area sitting on a dead colt which seemed to be collateral damage. I researched my arse off only to find out that the photo is not related and the incident most likely never happened. The unreliability of the New Concord horse kill has been discussed several times on the list in the meantime, yet the picture is still on the website. I hear you say these things are completely unrelated, and perhaps they are. And in the end this might all be peanuts even. Actually, right now, I ask myself what the heck I'm doing here. I actually enjoy doing the detective work on which account is true and which is doubtful! But why anyone actively wants to play a part in the confusion other than to cash in is a mystery to me. Enough said, Best wishes, Regine Von: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com An: Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de CC: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Gesendet: 20:20 Dienstag, 12.Juni 2012 Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term Hi Regine, I can't argue that point. I can only say that we (as meteorite buffs) should do our best to educate the newbies, or make resources available that will educate the newbies. I think many of us do that. I also think we could do better if we really tried. But I don't think everyone who uses the term hammer fall is engaging in marketing or trying to mislead people for financial gain. Maybe some dealers do that. If they do, I don't agree with that and they should stop. But the term hammer fall probably isn't going away, and if it does, it will be replaced by another term that means the same thing. And we can't excuse people for making rash purchases. The buyer does bear some responsibility to educate themselves before spending money on a meteorite (or anything). I guess this gets back to some of the most fundamental lessons of collecting things. Do one's homework. Buyer beware. Know your seller. Check references (or feedback). :) Best regards, MikeG -- --- Galactic Stone Ironworks - MikeG Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook:
[meteorite-list] Meteor/fireball reported from Sweden and Denmark 14JUN2012 with fragmentation
Dear List, Meteor/fireball reported from Sweden and Denmark 14JUN2012 with fragmentation: http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.jp/2012/06/mbiq-detects-sweden-meteor-fireball.html Dirk Ross...Tokyo __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Brix finds more than just meteorites!
Hi All, Early this morning Georgia was awoke to the sound of Brix barking ferociously in the backyard. It turned out there was an uninvited guest out back and Brix was not happy. Over the last couple of months we have been finding large piles of scat that had been buried in the kennel. We thought Brix had been watching our cats a little too much and had started burying his droppings. Well as is turns out it was from a suspected Bobcat. We are not sure yet. The Department of Wildlife is investigating. Talk about an exciting morning! Brix got an early Rabies shot booster and is perfectly fine except for a little lost fur and a couple scratches on his forehead! Hopefully they will be willing to relocate the cat. Time will tell. There is a news link below. Sonny http://www.fox5vegas.com/story/18783046/bobcat-attacks-dog-in-northwest-las-vegas __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Brix finds more than just meteorites!
Hi Sonny! Glad to hear Brix is okay. Could have turned out way worse. Jim T-Mobile. America's First Nationwide 4G Network wahlpe...@aol.com wrote: Hi All, Early this morning Georgia was awoke to the sound of Brix barking ferociously in the backyard. It turned out there was an uninvited guest out back and Brix was not happy. Over the last couple of months we have been finding large piles of scat that had been buried in the kennel. We thought Brix had been watching our cats a little too much and had started burying his droppings. Well as is turns out it was from a suspected Bobcat. We are not sure yet. The Department of Wildlife is investigating. Talk about an exciting morning! Brix got an early Rabies shot booster and is perfectly fine except for a little lost fur and a couple scratches on his forehead! Hopefully they will be willing to relocate the cat. Time will tell. There is a news link below. Sonny http://www.fox5vegas.com/story/18783046/bobcat-attacks-dog-in-northwest-las-vegas __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term
Sales of hour carbonaceous chondrite encrusted dead horse floggers are hereby held until we can modify our hoc-stock with hammer stone harvested, hand-wrapped hammer handles hurriedly hacked from houses hammered by hammer fall hunks. Hammer fall stones, country mail boxes, Malibus, sun shades or drywall crumbs may have had substitutions at our sole discretion. Caution: hammer stones may help cause horrendous headaches, heartburn and hotflashes and should be havoided. hAd Hauseum er ad nauseum. hI hapologize. hElton On 6/12/12, cdtuc...@cox.net cdtuc...@cox.net wrote: Regine, MikeG, I hate to beat a dead horse but, There actually could be such a thing as a Hammer Fall. Take Carancas for example; This fall was not only observed but, it hit a man made water well and killed a couple of animals while excavating a crater. This fall is generally accepted as a Hammer Fall because we believe it was one huge stone that crashed and exploded. So, then the question is; Is this a hammer stone as well? Of coarse it is. That is IF it was indeed caused by one single stone that exploded on impact. This is a fact that is in dispute amongst Scientists. There may have been a swarm of stones that hit at once. We do have evidence of this in stones that were found that were nearly fully fusion crusted. Had it been just one single stone where did the nearly fully crusted stones come from? This lends doubt that in fact all of the stones are Hammer Stones. However, from a sales standpoint. Having one of these ultra rare fully crusted stones would not be such a bad thing to have. I would think they would be far more rare and therefore far more valuable to both the collector (museum) or Scientist for the simple reason of aesthetics and that it does make for an interesting argument about how many stones did fall. As for the use of the word Michael Blood coined Hammer. He could just of easily have used any number of other words to describe this end result. Swatter, clapper, striker or anything else one does with an object in his had while hitting something. The other really funny term is the use of the word Fall at all. I mean try to explain that to a newby? I mean after all, Aren't all meteorites Falls in the true sense of the word. How else could they have gotten here? So, the use of this term necessitates an explanation. You have to explain that not all meteorites are falls. A newby would look at you like you are nuts. The word fresh fall would make more sense but, most of the time the Fresh is left out. Even when a stone is called a fresh Fall science can only determine the time it fell within years not hour or minutes so even then... If you find a stone. How do you really know when it fell. You did find a fall but was it fresh? Or does it just look fresh? Too Funny. Best, Carl meteoritemax -- Cheers Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de wrote: Well, I'm referring to an overall suspicious odour when it comes to hammer falls on sales pages. It is so imprecise - as many other things related to it. What comes to my mind right now is that I downloaded a small jpg once from a website on hammers when I started getting interested in the historic side of meteorites. I was new to the subject and took the picture as a genuine photograph of a man from the New Concord area sitting on a dead colt which seemed to be collateral damage. I researched my arse off only to find out that the photo is not related and the incident most likely never happened. The unreliability of the New Concord horse kill has been discussed several times on the list in the meantime, yet the picture is still on the website. I hear you say these things are completely unrelated, and perhaps they are. And in the end this might all be peanuts even. Actually, right now, I ask myself what the heck I'm doing here. I actually enjoy doing the detective work on which account is true and which is doubtful! But why anyone actively wants to play a part in the confusion other than to cash in is a mystery to me. Enough said, Best wishes, Regine Von: Michael Gilmer meteoritem...@gmail.com An: Regine P. fips_br...@yahoo.de CC: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Gesendet: 20:20 Dienstag, 12.Juni 2012 Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term Hi Regine, I can't argue that point. I can only say that we (as meteorite buffs) should do our best to educate the newbies, or make resources available that will educate the newbies. I think many of us do that. I also think we could do better if we really tried. But I don't think everyone who uses the term hammer fall is engaging in marketing or trying to mislead people for financial gain. Maybe some dealers do that. If they do, I don't agree with that and they should stop. But the term hammer fall probably isn't going away, and if it does, it will be replaced by another term that means
