Re: [meteorite-list] New meteorites from Georgia/South
Ken and others, Thanx for info. The test results show 1/2 percent nickel in weight. I don't think there are any iron meteorites with that low of a nickel content. Meteorwrong!!! Way to go guys...another one flushed out into the open. Michael's experience to date is similar to others I've read/heard from who have been looking at possible meteorites for a period of time. Meteorite finds really are few and far between. That doesn't mean we should discourage people from searching out answers...just the ones who insist on selling them before it is known for sure to be the real thing. John IMCA 2006 John and All, If this story wasn't bizarre enough already, below is a letter sent to me by the seller. The test results: http://emc.biol.sc.edu/client/philb/ Dr. Gardner told me they weren't really into meteorites... Whether the specimen is actually a meteorite, I'll let you come to your own conclusion. The seller is NOW going to GIVE the specimen to the highest bidder for FREE? This is one of the oddest specimen/owner combinations I have experienced.(I don't know which is more unusual?:) Best, Ken __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New meteorites from Georgia/South
Rob, Not sure how low the nickel content goes but according to Norton's Rocks from Space the free metal(iron w/nickel)in H chondrites is 15 to 19%, in L's it is 4 to 10%, and LL's 1 to 3%. The test results from Ken for the South Carolina meteorwrong was 79% iron and 0.5% nickel. In iron meteorites the range of nickel percentage is 7 to 13% for most...with it reaching more than 16% for axatites and down to 4% for hexahedrites. Mesosiderites have about 7 to 10% nickel in the metal phase...and I'm assuming the metal phase in pallasites are similar but I'm not sure. Anymore info out is appreciated. John What about OC's, is thera minimum nickel content? -- Rob Wesel -- We are the music makers...and we are the dreamers of the dreams. Willy Wonka, 1971 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: magellon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] New meteorites from Georgia/South Ken and others, Thanx for info. The test results show 1/2 percent nickel in weight. I don't think there are any iron meteorites with that low of a nickel content. Meteorwrong!!! Way to go guys...another one flushed out into the open. Michael's experience to date is similar to others I've read/heard from who have been looking at possible meteorites for a period of time. Meteorite finds really are few and far between. That doesn't mean we should discourage people from searching out answers...just the ones who insist on selling them before it is known for sure to be the real thing. John IMCA 2006 John and All, If this story wasn't bizarre enough already, below is a letter sent to me by the seller. The test results: http://emc.biol.sc.edu/client/philb/ Dr. Gardner told me they weren't really into meteorites... Whether the specimen is actually a meteorite, I'll let you come to your own conclusion. The seller is NOW going to GIVE the specimen to the highest bidder for FREE? This is one of the oddest specimen/owner combinations I have experienced.(I don't know which is more unusual?:) Best, Ken __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] trade offer
tic tick tik ticc tiic ttic tikc tic tikk tiik tic Here it comes Thanks, Tom The proudest member of the IMCA 6168 - Original Message - From: Steve Arnold, Chicago!!! [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 3:24 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] trade offer Hi list, I know I have plugged this before, but I'm going to try 1 more time on this trade.I am offering my 1/2 gram slice of honolulu, 9 gram cut of ahumada (monnig number), small micro of cat mountain (15x10x5)mm, and a micro of albion olivine crytals for trade.Let me know if we can make this one work.I'm looking for stuff I do not have, prefferably hard to get items. steve arnold, chicago = Steve R.Arnold, Chicago, IL, 60120 I. M. C. A. MEMBER #6728 Illinois Meteorites website url http://stormbringer60120.tripod.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 869/787
Tom, I'd stick to Dean's and Mike's numbers. It's easier to count what went out than who has what. John Hello List, Lets take a inventory of the NWA 869 just owned by list members. I would bet we would account for a lot of it. Does any one want to count! We could email that person off list with our total amounts! Thanks, Tom The proudest member of the IMCA 6168 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 7:03 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 869/787 In a message dated 6/11/2003 10:31:48 AM Mountain Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: These two meteorites are indeed the same. I was in Morocco 5 days ago, and I saw at least 200 kilos of it for sale. I agree with Dean (for once), there are at least 1500 kilos, maybe 2000 kilos of that meteorite. We all need to print and frame this post!!! :-) Anne M. Black www. IMPACTIKA.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
Here are a couple more. 1. Mantlelite (variation on Martin's naming) 2. Gabbrolite (using gabbro as a general term for this type of deep plutonic rock) John Dave wrote: Perhaps just as a slightly cleaner version, might using HED-group peridotite rather than HED-clan peridotite be a bit better? From my understanding you would say clan. Like eucrites are a clan, and within eucrites you have several groups or different types of eucrites, such as Polymict Eucrite or Unbrecciated Eucrite. Given a few more finds (or more study?), the different Peridotites would receive groups names. It should be noted that nobody calls eucrites, HED-group eucrites, so would not the name, if decided upon, just be Peridotite, or should the HED-group part be carried to not confuse people with an earth peridot? Personally, I still like the thought of using historical names for clans, and then the more scientific words added to define the groups. I do however see logic in using names that are easy to recognize for the average geologist. Mark Bostick www.MeteoriteArticles.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
Speaking of Cat Mountain again, again...I forgot one more name for the new group. Arnoldnolite ...establishing the HEAD Group JD Dave wrote: Perhaps just as a slightly cleaner version, might using HED-group peridotite rather than HED-clan peridotite be a bit better? From my understanding you would say clan. Like eucrites are a clan, and within eucrites you have several groups or different types of eucrites, such as Polymict Eucrite or Unbrecciated Eucrite. Given a few more finds (or more study?), the different Peridotites would receive groups names. It should be noted that nobody calls eucrites, HED-group eucrites, so would not the name, if decided upon, just be Peridotite, or should the HED-group part be carried to not confuse people with an earth peridot? Personally, I still like the thought of using historical names for clans, and then the more scientific words added to define the groups. I do however see logic in using names that are easy to recognize for the average geologist. Mark Bostick www.MeteoriteArticles.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] contact
Hi Steve from Arkansas who celebrates his birthday in Tuscon with New York Geoff not Cintron Notkin...who takes nice pictures of cat-like meteorites, It is simple, off the wall collecting just takes a little off the wall thinking. Some are better at it than others. I wanted to add a couple more collector's trends to your list. Let's not forget Bessey Specks, dog and cow killers, and all those meteorites sitting at the bottom of the ocean. Hey, there is a thought...the final meteorite hunter frontier. Thanx for the fun, John Hello Steve Arnold (not from Arkansas) and list, Steve (not from Arkansas), you asked: ...is there ...someone who sells very off the wall meteorites? I mean types that most people do not want to collect. The very, very hard ones to get ahold of. It seems that we are only interested in the so-so rans that only interest the list. Please help me out here. 1. What do you define as very off the wall? 2. What types do you think most people do not want to collect? Falls, finds, chondrites, achondrites, irons, stoney-irons, pseudo-meteorites, high TKW, low TKW, individuals, slices, end pieces, fragments, micros, macros, dust, crumbs, thin sections, rare, common, crusted, non-crusted, desert varnished, from public collections, from private collections, ones with research papers done on them, ones not yet researched, found with metal dectetors, found with magnet sticks, found fallen through houses or cars or ice, found above ground, under ground, found in indian burial grounds, in craters, around craters, in impact pits, bounced out of impact pits, found in water, on dry lake beds, or sand blowouts, historic ones, ones that bounced off a wall, etc.? 3. Are you meaning that very very hard ones to get a hold of are the same as the very off the wall meteorites that most people do not want to collect? I think that is what you were saying but I am not sure. 4. Is it your impression that these very off the wall meteorites that are very very hard to get ahold of are precisely the ones that we on the list are not interested in because we are only interested in the so-so rans? 5. What is a so-so ran anyway? Is a so-so ran the new type name for the olivine diogenites? Not that I really am so concerned with what you wrote, except that sometimes people do confuse what YOU say as having come from me (I have no idea why???) and I have found that it is always good to be able to explain what I didn't say, when people ask. Thanks Steve Arnold (from Arkansas) __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Metal-Rich diogenite-Dazed and Confused
Mike, Adam and others, Let's see if I've got this straight? We started off with Mesosiderites and Diogenites. Now we have Mesosiderites, Eucrite-rich Mesosiderites, possibly (not sure)Diogenite-rich Mesosiderites, extra-Metal rich Mesosiderites, Olivine-rich Mesosiderites to plain-old Diogenites including white(Bilanga) and green(Tatahouine) ones...and now we can have a Metal-rich Diogenite that looks like a Mesosiderite, and an Olivine- rich Diogenite without an official name that is not a Diogenite. I've got to lay down...I'm dizzy. As one of my professors once said, the more we learn, the dumber we get. It looks like that is the case for these two areas of meteoritics. ...in the Twilight Zone. John People, this is the most amazing and stunningly beautiful meteorite I have seen come out of NWA other than NWA482. In any other circumstance, it would sell for likely several hundred dollars per gram. I have just loaded some killer little pieces on my website, for $25.00 gram, still a super low price, but more in line with the value of this material. This meteorite will have the world talking, an achondrite, iron impactor, so beautiful. Mike Farmer http://www.meteoriteguy.com/nwa1827.htm __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Olivine Diogenite Naming
Adam, The naming logic seems reasonable. However, does this mean we could one day have an olivine-rich Diogenite that is not an Olivine Diogenite? Without getting into to much detail, what general criteria will it take to be called an Olivine Diogenite? Regards, John Dear List Members, We appreciate all of the suggestions regarding the renaming of the OlivineDiogenite group. During this process we learned a great deal about this subject. Some of the things we learned are that names are adopted, only come to be recognized with usage, a consensus should be sought and that the NomCom does not oversee this process. It was naive of us to think we could pick a name for this new main group by simply having a vote on it. We would have liked to honor some pioneer in the field of meteoritics but this would have been out of convention as pointed out by Jeff Grossman. We agree fully with what he stated and more importantly we learned something from his comments. If we were able to pick a name for this new group a Nortonite probably would have been chosen because of Richard Norton's contributions to meteoritics. Another good reason is that he asked the all important question Where are the pieces representing the mantle of Vesta? They were there all the time but lost to obscurity because of a naming convention. One goal that has been accomplished is that the consensus supports this new main group and the term Olivine Diogenite that was coined some time ago is now well known throughout the meteoritic community. History has been made because the consensus agrees this qualifies as a new main group because there are now five different Olivine Diogenites in existence. A paper will be written providing a precise definition of what qualifies a meteorite as an olivine diogenite. In other words a diogenite with accessory amounts of olivine is not in the spirit of this rarest of classifications and should not be confused with the real McCoy. In our opinion and several scientists the HED group can now be called HEDO to cover this new main class. For the first time in history a new main group is being accepted and added to the HED designation which remained unchanged for centuries. Olivine diogenite may not be the best name to use but it is already widely known and several publications are being written using this term. No need to ask anymore about what happened to the specimens relating toVesta's mantle. They were in hiding under the name Olivine Diogenite. Wishing everybody the best, Adam and Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection IMCA 2185 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Olivine Diogenite Naming
Adam and Greg, Thank you for the response and congratulations on being part of making meteorite history. Sorry if I seem to be trying gum up the works. I do that more than I should sometimes. I'll continue this discussion with one more set of thoughts. My personal obsession (as a novice) with earth's gabbroic rocks has me quite interested in this material and how it relates to similar earthly and meteorite (achondrite) materials. Harzburgite, as I understand it, is 40% olivine or greater until we call it a Dunite, while Olivine Orthopyroxenite is less than 40 % olivine, down to about 10 % or so. And then there is plain old Orthopyroxenite that is 10 % or less in olivine, and covers what we call Diogenites for meteorites. So, as far as meteorites go, we have the upper level of lower crust in Diogenites, and much deeper material in what we now call Olivine Diogneites. My question now is, I wonder how far down in % of olivine (ie. 10, 20, 30%) will the description go to be classified as an Olivine Diogenite...and could there be a need for a classification between Diogenite and Olivine Diogenite?, if and when we find something in between the present examples that are classified. Regards, Crusty John Dear John and List Members, There is not much to worry about as far as confusing a real Olivine Diogenite with a standard Diogenite if this is what you are asking. A real Olivine Diogenite is a Harzburgitic Peridotite not an Orthopyroxenite so any scientists should be able to distinguish between the two. I only mentioned the real McCoy thing because somebody was trying to pass off a common diogenite with an accessory amount of olivine for $500.00 a gram wholesale claiming it to be a peridotite. Here is a good link describing the real McCoys which compares the four real Olivine Diogenites in existence at that time, now there is five: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2003/pdf/1502.pdf Note the ratio chart. This would serve to easily tell the difference. In my opinion the word Diogenite should not be used to describe this rarest of classes because it is not really a diogenite because it comes from the mantle. We believe at this point changing the name would add even more confusion. Hey, this is a history making class, time to celebrate! All the best, Adam - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Adam Hupe [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 4:45 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Olivine Diogenite Naming Adam, The naming logic seems reasonable. However, does this mean we could one day have an olivine-rich Diogenite that is not an Olivine Diogenite? Without getting into to much detail, what general criteria will it take to be called an Olivine Diogenite? Regards, John __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] IMCA member offering questionable meteorite
Hello all, Take 3 deep breaths everybody... This Jackstaw guy, also known as Derik Bowers, has been buying and selling real meteorites for a couple years now. I've bought a couple pieces from him myself. I've seen this native iron for sale from him many times before. I never thought he was trying to say it was a meteorite. If you read you can tell that this was probably once thought to be a meteorite...but it was tested and confirmed not to be. Now it his/others famous meteorwrong that turned out to be a native iron. This piece being claimed to be authentic from that material. Nothing more!!! John Which IMCA member is putting this oddball chunk o' rock up for sale? There have been instances in the past where logos (Square Trade comes to mind) have been hijacked to lend authenticity where none exists. Maybe some enterprising seller did that to the IMCA logo, and we should make sure the owner of the IMCA number is behind this auction. Tracy Latimer _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Metal-rich Diogenite/Mesosiderite
Stefan, Adam and others: THIS METEORITE ROCKS What a beauty! John Dear List, many thanks to everyone which has been interested in my Mesosiderite special offer. I also have the official NWA number for the meteorite now, its NWA1882. I have heard that the metal rich Diogenite NWA1827 is classified and submitted also as a Mesosiderite. I think, that this meteorite is possibly paired with other Mesosiderites which are offered at the moment. Best Regards, Stefan SR-Meteorite I.M.C.A. Member#3368 Stefan Ralew Kunibertstrasse 29 12524 Berlin Germany www.meteoriten.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Cool Eisen-shale - Off Topic
Bernd, Being from the hills myself...my natural dumb-looked-on-my-face response would be something like... So, collecting meteorites is like collecting long, but different German words...then trading them on occasion when you have part-word duplicates? At least Mark Twain thought so. The German words really are scary looking. I'm always inpressed with anyone who knows more than plane yold inglish like me. As always Bernd...thanx for sharing! John Hi Walter, Bob, Norbert and List, Gotta get this off my chest before heading for the bunk: The German term would be Scheinmeteorit - alles klar ;-? Does this translate back into English like that: all-clear shining meteorite ??? Schrecklicheschlackestienen sounds familiar, too, Oh, I see: shriekly slagstons although you won't find it in any dictionary... So let's publish one ... it's now or never ... Where have I heard these words before ? :-)) Enjoying my first day of summer our vacations here ! Off to bed before it's too led ... sorry late ... Bernd P.S.: After visiting Germany, Mark Twain once wrote in 1879 about The Awful German Language: These things are not words, they are alphabetical processions. And they are not rare; one can open a German newspaper any time and see them marching majestically across the page - and if he has any imagination he can see the banners and hear the music, too. They impart a martial thrill to the meekest subject. Whenever I come across a good one, I stuff it and put it in my museum. In this way I have made quite a valuable collection. When I get duplicates, I exchange with other collectors, and thus increase the variety of my stock. From: A Tramp Abroad (by Mark Twain) To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] (Antarctica/desert weights) Meteorite Collecting Ban
Jeff and others, Could the effects of glacial movements up against the mountains in Antarctica actually keep a larger percentage of heavier pieces buried deeper in the ice longer, while a larger number of smaller pieces would have surfaced first? Since recovery teams have only been looking for 30 years...and this filtering process has been going on for 10's of thousands of years, maybe over time (a long time) the average size of the specimens found in Antarctica would go up. Obviously the rate of finds from previously searched areas would be a fraction of those early years. Such a phenomena would skew the mass ratios back toward the desert material sizes with the real number somewhere in between. I would agree the number would be probably a lot closer to the present Antarctica values. This generation of collectors may never know the answer. John As for rare meteorites, which I will define as non-ordinary-chondrites, there are 1550 from Antarctica and 467 from commercial collections. Let's refine the numbers a bit. Pretty much the start of hot desert collecting was in 1998. Of the numbers you quote above how many are since the start of 1998? Do the same pairing numbers Lindstrom estimated apply to the non-ordinary-chondrites? I don't have access to a database so Jeff if you could let us know I would appreciate it. The pairing numbers are based on the abundances of non-OC's. Since 1998, it's ~5:3 by number and 10:1 by mass in favor of commercial meteorites for rare types. The total is ~500 rare meteorites. Meteorites that formed strewn fields get just as many numbers in the Sahara as in Antarctica (one per specimen). I was under the impression that each specimen gets a separate designation in antarctica. If there was a witnessed fall in Antarctica such as bensour in Africa would it get a single name and entry in the catalog listing or would each stone found get a separate designation and entry? Each stone in BOTH places gets a separate designation. However, as I said, many Saharan meteorites are found as piles of rubble, so the reported number of pieces is high for some. Of course there are a few recent showers in Africa that have a single name. Observed falls in Antarctica would be treated the same as anywhere else: no numbers. I can't make that estimate. That is one of the reasons that I asked about the total mass of Antarctic meteorites. Statistically it would be reasonable to assume the ratio of OCs to other meteorite types would be similar. Certainly differences in weathering will affect the numbers some, but in gross approximation they should be somewhat similar. If there is 10 or 100 times as much mass coming out of the hot desert there should be 10 or 100 times the rare stuff, or at least 2 to 20 times. High mass strewn fields certainly could affect the statistics however neither region has many iron meteorites which would be most likely to affect the approximation. Stony falls aren't big enough that one fall should affect the gross approximation that much. Well, the mass issue is messy. By and large, small stones are not collected in Africa. Or at least, the ones that are never get looked at unless somebody thinks they're special. This is why the mass ratio of rare types is so much greater than the number ratio in the statistics above. The median size of commercial stones of rare types is ~160 g, whereas the same number for Antarctic ones is ~18 g. In Antarctica, all of the gram-sized stones have been collected (including many main masses in this size range!). So you're looking at an incredibly size-biased Saharan collection, and an Antarctic collection that more closely represents what actually falls. I think the Antarctic collection has about the correct number of irons (after correction for pairing) based on fall statistics . The Saharan material has been scavanged by man over the centuries, and the irons are apparently long gone. Of course, in terms of importance to science, the high mass of African/Omani meteorites is not the important issue. Most specimens of these that are deposited in scientific collections now weigh 20 g or less. This is a very hard number to get stats on, but I counted the Libyan and NWA's in the latest bulletin and found that the median size of rare meteorites deposited in collections is on the order of 15 g, which is actually about the same as the median Antarctic size. The rest is eventually destroyed as far as many scientists are concerned, or at least badly compromised. We can do a lot with a few grams (as we have always done with Antarctic meteorites), but future researchers will have precious little material to study, and nobody gets the chance to study hand-sample scale features once the specimen is sliced into a million bits. For Antarctic meteorites, this is the hand we were dealt. But for
Re: [meteorite-list] FW: The Vitim event and more
Robert and others, Serg from the Comet Meteorite Shop told me the same thing about Vitim at the Springfield show. He said that travel to the area was long and difficult...and that more money would be needed to do a serious investigation of the site. He did say they had soil to evaluate, and that the impact/explosion(?) damage to the area was significant. This might have been a smaller scale Tunguska-like event? Much more work on the site it is needed for sure. John Forward Message -- Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:25:57 +0400 From: Andrei Ol'khovatov Subject: (meteorobs) The Vitim event and more Dear All, Expeditions have returned from the Vitim bolide epicenter. No fragments were discovered. Some samples of soil etc. were taken to analyse in labs. Along the trajectory numerous small and fierce forest-falls were discovered with unknown origin. In my opinion, it is not clear whether they exist just in there (and absent in other areas), as the expeditions (as I understand from brief reports) were just along the trajectory. Hoping that more detailed info will appear soon. Here is a fresh meteorite impact article on something another: http://www.detnews.com/2003/metro/0308/12/c01-242704.htm Despite that it is not clear what it was, it sounds interesting to investigate. Best wishes, Andrei Ol'khovatov Russia, Moscow From the archive and Web site for the Meteorobs list: http://www.meteorobs.org -- __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] How s(low) can it get...
Ron, Steve and others, Things really are at a snails pace on the list these days...so slow that I thought I would pass on my meteorite revelation for the day. Looking at my Meteorite Calendar for August, it dawned on me today that the Adamana oriented meteorite owned by Robert Haag should be renamed the Madonna meteorite. ;) It is also called the Venus stone...h www.meteorman.org/Adamana.htm John __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] ebay auctions by Comet Meteorite-Shop
Mike, Comet Meteorite Shop is a self described team of field collectors and sellers of found(by them) and bought meteorite from different countries of Africa and the Middle East. To date I'm assuming they have strictly sold things by email, from their website, and at shows around the world. They are represented at shows in the states by a fellow named Serguei(sp?)or Serg. Not sure of his last name. They have field collected many of the Dhofars, including some beautiful Lunar and SNC material. Serg was just at the Springfield show in Mass. and will be in Denver from what he told me three weeks ago. I would say they are for real and will probably be a sound Ebayer. Their website is easily found under the name stated above. Welcome to the meteorite list, John PS Yes, some of my comments are just jokes and others more serious. Comet Meteorite-Shop has many interesting ebay auctions running. However, they have a zero feedback rating. I am reluctant to buy from a zero feedback entity. Could any list members who have dealings with this company advise as to the reputation of same? Since I'm a new list member, I'll let any responders decide whether on or off list is more appropriate. Thanks, Mike Fowler Chicago ebay-Starsandrocks __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Re:Hypersonic wind tunnel testing?
Elton and Tom, I agree with Elton in saying that to set something up in a real wind tunnel would be a really difficut to actually acquire free time in such a facility. Maybe someone would volunteer a facility to do so. The ideal way to do it would be get some engineer (mechanical, aeronautical, etc) who has access to CFD modeling (or computational fluid dynamics) to set up a model using different shapes of oriented meteorites and/or nosecones. The difficult part of setting up such a model would be describing the piece in CAD (computer aided drafting) so that the model could build a calculation grid around it. However the combination of CAD skills and someone proficient in CFD would easily get to some great information on a fairly tranquil state of the last stages of an ideal meteor fall. One would have to assume a stabilized flight to see the velocity vectors, forces, temperatures possibly, etc. that occur around oriented flight. Throw spin into the picture...WOW! would that get complicated. Being a mechanical consulting engineer and an ex-user of CFD (Fluent software from 1989 to 1996), I can only imagine the staggering variations in conditions that an actual meteorite really sees as it comes through the ever- changing atmosphere...let alone the chaotic changes that occur as a odd looking rock begins to melt to almost nothing. Then there are the breakups that typically occur...Good Luck modeling the real thing. We'd be better off throwing big rocks out the window of the shuttle, and following there path and destruction back to Earth. If I had access to the software needed, I'd probably try to demonstrate a couple flight scenarios. Sad to say (in some ways) I don't use it anymore...too expensive!!! send me some software for free and I'll work on it. Maybe someday??? someone will do something like this as part of a meteoritic science research project using CFD and a wind tunnel. John IMCA 2006 I am aware of three remotely related stories. 1. A test was conducted to replicate features on a tektite-- forming a tektite-like button in a blow torch stream. This resulted in a flange, not unlike the australites. 2. Nininger noted that from the Esterville fall there were several oriented shuttlecock shaped projectiles which he surmised was an ideal nose cone shape for aerodynamic stability. It was reported that he repeatedly submitted this to NASA who repeatedly ignored him. After extensive testing involving high time and cost expenses, NASA found that in large Harvey was right. If I recall correctly several rockets including the Thor carried that stubby nose cone design. 3. About 3 years ago, a (European?) return package from orbit had 3-4 sample minerals embedded in the surface exposed to full re-entry heating. One of which was dolomite which would perhaps represent an Earth Meteorite. Unfortunately that sample did not stay attached to the capsule. Obligatory ramblings-- Speaking of testing. As to getting a test done, you flatter Ron and Bob. Unlike TV and Hollywood, rarely are tests done willy-nilly in the catagory of to see what happens. There has to be a reason, a need, a scientific payoff, a researcher, facility time, a saftey report, yada yada yada and not least-- a budget. (See number 2 above) Is isn't anything like Hollywood where , 3 key strokes on a IBM PC will answer the most inane question a character could think request , such as search a world database of one-eye'd, left handed, chess players making the top 10 suspects appear.( One the other hand if you have a Macintosh and the brain power of this list..anything might be possible~!) Elton Tom aka James Knudson wrote: Hello List, I was wondering if anyone has done hypersonic wind tunnel testing on orientated meteorites? __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] formation of pallasites / mesosiderites
Al and Robert, I too doubt that we have most of the answers for the stoney-irons. (It is a lot easier to say that than something complex like Al and Robert did.) Al, Good job...you should have edited for Harry...he used a lot more words to say the same things. Actually, his book is very fascinating for the reader who can hang in there and go slowly. Please don't ask me to model these two stories in CFD! John Hi Robert and all, I don't think there is an easy answer for the formation of these two types of stony-iron meteorites and it is apparent that those that study them also think there is some mysteries to be solved. What is known are the cooling rates to form such stony-irons. No doubt the Pallasites formed from at least two different parent bodies and the messosiderites formed from a different parent body all together (unless they come from the same parent body and are found at a different depth?). Cooling rates for pallasites seem to be from 2 million year to about 10 million. The messosiderites seem to have cooled in .2 to .7 million. Now comes the tricky part. A group from the University of Denmark (Henning Haack) explored the thermal effects of asteroids and more specifically regoliths on asteroid surfaces. What they found was that asteroids with a powered regolith makes a good insulator. It is possible to have an asteroid cool ten times slower than an asteroid with no covering (and be tens times smaller for the same cooling rate) and might answer your question do pallasites come from a lower gravity asteroid. It is suggested that the pallasites probably come from a body the size of less than 100 km. It is thought that they are related to the IIIAB iron meteorites. It is thought that a possible filtering in of metal around the olivine crystals could have occurred but would have had to happen after the main core had mostly solidified. The later filtering effect is shown by the pallasite metal has a more highly fractionated composition which seems to plot along the IIIAB iron's latest crystallizing age. How this filtering happen is somewhat of a mystery. Is it a result of impact submerging the olivine in the liquid core or forcing the liquid metal up into the olivine crystals? Since there are two parent bodies of the pallasites it isn't an isolated occurrence. McSween says that because of the drastic differences between densities of iron and silicated materials, it is not obvious how core and mantle became intermixed. The Mesosiderite parent body has an even more complexed history. One suggestion is a collision with a iron asteroid hitting an asteroid with silicated material and intermixing. There is some resemblance of the HED Asteroid and the mesosiderites. Could this be one of the impacted parent bodies or perhaps a fragment from the HED asteroid? A-type asteroids thought to be possible parent planets of the pallasites (such as asteroid 246 Asporina) from spectra taken by astronomers and plot nicely along the stony-iron chemical make up. Even with all that is know there are no doubt some misleading items that may later prove to be wrong like the relationship of the IIIAB iron meteorites with the pallasites and even the cooling rates. Because of the maltitude of variations in different asteroids and asteroid make up, it is possible for material to have formed in different sized asteroids at different depths but under similar conditions and make answering the questions about stony-iron make up hard. With time new clues may tell us more about the make up of these interesting meteorites and their parent planet asteroids. A good reading source (and where I picked up a lot of my information) is Meteorites and Their Parent Planets by Harry Y. McSween Jr. In chapter 7 of his second edition book he addresses the possible formation of the iron and stony-iron meteorites. All my best and hope I shed some light. --AL Mitterling __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] AD-SPADE slices for sale
List members and Matt, The Spade meteorite looks and reads like a very special find. Congratulations to Matt for being the one to get involved with this new find. I was wondering what meteorite was the last significant find in the US that was shared with the public like this one...with a couple kilos (+3 kg) available for purchase? Just curious...I can't recall one in the last 4 or 5 years that I've been involved...except maybe Gold Basin of course. For me it(Spade) being an IMB is extra exciting because I find the impact melt breccias to be very unique materials. As I said to Matt, this type of material reminds of glass when looking at its' broken edges. The metal quantity looks extreme for the Spade material...even for an H. I also found the article on shock metamorphism by Dr. Rubin to be very interesting. Occurrences of S5, annealed back to S2, and then shocked again to S4, etc. for one example makes me wonder if some of the changes in petrologic levels actually occurs during these extreme shock and melt processes? Random thoughts as usual, John Hi Listees: Here is my offering of this new beauty. Funny... we purchased the Spade meteorite from the finder the day AFTER the Park Forest fall (which is why I wasn't at the PF fall site). The slices listed below are priced at ~5.00/g, on the low end of the impact melt price range so you can get a bigger piece for the $$$: 614 gram end piece $3000.00. A really spectacular piece and the largest available outside the main mass. Fully crusted back side, except where a sample was removed for analysis, and thin for an end piece. 14cm X 15cm X 1cm. http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/614-end.jpg 261 gram complete slice (except where sample was removed for analysis). 12.5cm X 14cm X 4mm $1305.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/261.jpg 256 gram complete slice (except where sample was removed for analysis). 14cm X 15cm X 3mm. $1280.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/256.jpg 146 gram part slice with crust. 8.5 cm X 7.5cm X 5mm $730.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/146.jpg 56 gram part slice with crust. 7cm X 4cm X 5mm $280.00 (ON HOLD) http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/56.jpg 40 gram part slice with crust. 4.5 cm X 4cm X 5mm $200.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/40.jpg 34 gram part slice with crust. 5cm X 3cm X 5mm $170.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/34.jpg 22 gram part slice with crust. 4.5 cm X 2.5 cm X 5mm $110.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/22.jpg 21 gram part slice with crust. 4.5 cm X 3cm X 5mm $105.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/21.jpg 20 gram part slice with crust. 3.3 cm X 3 cm X 5mm $100.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/20.jpg 19 gram part slice no crust. 4 cm X 2 cm X 5mm $95.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/19.jpg 18 gram part slice no crust. 4 cm X 2 cm X 5mm $90.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/18.jpg 16 gram part slice with crust. 3 cm X 2.2 cm X 5mm. $80.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/16.jpg 15 gram part slice no crust. 3.2 cm X 2.5 cm X 5mm. $75.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/15.jpg 15(b) gram part slice with no crust. 3.2 cm X 2.5 cm X 5mm. $75.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/15-b.jpg 10 gram part slice with no crust. 2.4 cm X 1.6 cm X 5mm. $50.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/10.jpg 9 gram part slice with no crust. 2.8 cm X 1.4 cm X 5mm. $45.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/9.jpg 8 gram part slice with no crust. 1.6 cm X 2 cm X 5mm. $40.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/8.jpg 4 gram part slice with no crust. 1.2 cm X 1.5 cm X 5mm. $20.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/4.jpg Thanks, Matt Morgan Mile High Meteorites http://www.mhmeteorites.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Recent significant larger US finds
Rob and others, I don't know the full story of the 87 kg Wagon Wound. According to the A to Z book it was found in 1932. My poorly stated question was meant to be, what are some of the recent finds (let's say the last 15 years) in the US that a few kilos became available to the public for sale?. I was reminded of Hope Creek a LL6 from Alaska in 1998 and Felt(b) a L3.5 from Oklahoma in 1990. And of of course we have Gold Basin identified in 1995, a L5 from Arizona. If the list is about that short for bigger finds then again I believe the Spade find to be significant for us in the states. John I would call Wagon Mound significant. -- Rob Wesel -- We are the music makers...and we are the dreamers of the dreams. Willy Wonka, 1971 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Matt Morgan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 7:15 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] AD-SPADE slices for sale List members and Matt, The Spade meteorite looks and reads like a very special find. Congratulations to Matt for being the one to get involved with this new find. I was wondering what meteorite was the last significant find in the US that was shared with the public like this one...with a couple kilos (+3 kg) available for purchase? Just curious...I can't recall one in the last 4 or 5 years that I've been involved...except maybe Gold Basin of course. For me it(Spade) being an IMB is extra exciting because I find the impact melt breccias to be very unique materials. As I said to Matt, this type of material reminds of glass when looking at its' broken edges. The metal quantity looks extreme for the Spade material...even for an H. I also found the article on shock metamorphism by Dr. Rubin to be very interesting. Occurrences of S5, annealed back to S2, and then shocked again to S4, etc. for one example makes me wonder if some of the changes in petrologic levels actually occurs during these extreme shock and melt processes? Random thoughts as usual, John Hi Listees: Here is my offering of this new beauty. Funny... we purchased the Spade meteorite from the finder the day AFTER the Park Forest fall (which is why I wasn't at the PF fall site). The slices listed below are priced at ~5.00/g, on the low end of the impact melt price range so you can get a bigger piece for the $$$: 614 gram end piece $3000.00. A really spectacular piece and the largest available outside the main mass. Fully crusted back side, except where a sample was removed for analysis, and thin for an end piece. 14cm X 15cm X 1cm. http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/614-end.jpg 261 gram complete slice (except where sample was removed for analysis). 12.5cm X 14cm X 4mm $1305.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/261.jpg 256 gram complete slice (except where sample was removed for analysis). 14cm X 15cm X 3mm. $1280.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/256.jpg 146 gram part slice with crust. 8.5 cm X 7.5cm X 5mm $730.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/146.jpg 56 gram part slice with crust. 7cm X 4cm X 5mm $280.00 (ON HOLD) http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/56.jpg 40 gram part slice with crust. 4.5 cm X 4cm X 5mm $200.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/40.jpg 34 gram part slice with crust. 5cm X 3cm X 5mm $170.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/34.jpg 22 gram part slice with crust. 4.5 cm X 2.5 cm X 5mm $110.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/22.jpg 21 gram part slice with crust. 4.5 cm X 3cm X 5mm $105.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/21.jpg 20 gram part slice with crust. 3.3 cm X 3 cm X 5mm $100.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/20.jpg 19 gram part slice no crust. 4 cm X 2 cm X 5mm $95.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/19.jpg 18 gram part slice no crust. 4 cm X 2 cm X 5mm $90.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/18.jpg 16 gram part slice with crust. 3 cm X 2.2 cm X 5mm. $80.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/16.jpg 15 gram part slice no crust. 3.2 cm X 2.5 cm X 5mm. $75.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/15.jpg 15(b) gram part slice with no crust. 3.2 cm X 2.5 cm X 5mm. $75.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/15-b.jpg 10 gram part slice with no crust. 2.4 cm X 1.6 cm X 5mm. $50.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/10.jpg 9 gram part slice with no crust. 2.8 cm X 1.4 cm X 5mm. $45.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/9.jpg 8 gram part slice with no crust. 1.6 cm X 2 cm X 5mm. $40.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/8.jpg 4 gram part slice with no crust. 1.2 cm X 1.5 cm X 5mm. $20.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/4.jpg Thanks, Matt
Re: [meteorite-list] Recent significant larger US finds
Mike and others, Mike, thanx for the response to my inquiry. There maybe a couple more we are not thinking of, but I believe this demonstrates how difficult it is to find larger pieces like the Spade piece in the states. I realize there have been more than several smaller finds(especially in Arizona and California) during this time...but for the most part, finding any meteorites unrelated to known falls is down right difficult, even when someone is trying really hard. I'll keep looking at old stone fence rows, etc. here in the east because you never know. Also as others have stated lately...good old fashioned education seminars and sharing with the public can flush them out on occasion, just like Nininger did in the last century. In the last two years I had two encounters with people who claimed to have had meteorites passed down to them that I took a look at. One was a big old iron rock (magnetite granitic gneiss I suppose), and the other was a definite iron that turned out to be a nice chunk of galena. Don't give up folks...there are probably many meteorites to be found out there. Still looking, John I recovered the Tinnie Iron meteorite, and the 8 kilogram Roosevelt County 102 meteorite during the Portales Valley fall in 1998. Of course both from other finders. Mike Farmer --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rob and others, I don't know the full story of the 87 kg Wagon Wound. According to the A to Z book it was found in 1932. My poorly stated question was meant to be, what are some of the recent finds (let's say the last 15 years) in the US that a few kilos became available to the public for sale?. I was reminded of Hope Creek a LL6 from Alaska in 1998 and Felt(b) a L3.5 from Oklahoma in 1990. And of of course we have Gold Basin identified in 1995, a L5 from Arizona. If the list is about that short for bigger finds then again I believe the Spade find to be significant for us in the states. John I would call Wagon Mound significant. -- Rob Wesel -- We are the music makers...and we are the dreamers of the dreams. Willy Wonka, 1971 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Matt Morgan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 7:15 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] AD-SPADE slices for sale List members and Matt, The Spade meteorite looks and reads like a very special find. Congratulations to Matt for being the one to get involved with this new find. I was wondering what meteorite was the last significant find in the US that was shared with the public like this one...with a couple kilos (+3 kg) available for purchase? Just curious...I can't recall one in the last 4 or 5 years that I've been involved...except maybe Gold Basin of course. For me it(Spade) being an IMB is extra exciting because I find the impact melt breccias to be very unique materials. As I said to Matt, this type of material reminds of glass when looking at its' broken edges. The metal quantity looks extreme for the Spade material...even for an H. I also found the article on shock metamorphism by Dr. Rubin to be very interesting. Occurrences of S5, annealed back to S2, and then shocked again to S4, etc. for one example makes me wonder if some of the changes in petrologic levels actually occurs during these extreme shock and melt processes? Random thoughts as usual, John Hi Listees: Here is my offering of this new beauty. Funny... we purchased the Spade meteorite from the finder the day AFTER the Park Forest fall (which is why I wasn't at the PF fall site). The slices listed below are priced at ~5.00/g, on the low end of the impact melt price range so you can get a bigger piece for the $$$: 614 gram end piece $3000.00. A really spectacular piece and the largest available outside the main mass. Fully crusted back side, except where a sample was removed for analysis, and thin for an end piece. 14cm X 15cm X 1cm. http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/614-end.jpg 261 gram complete slice (except where sample was removed for analysis). 12.5cm X 14cm X 4mm $1305.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/261.jpg 256 gram complete slice (except where sample was removed for analysis). 14cm X 15cm X 3mm. $1280.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/256.jpg 146 gram part slice with crust. 8.5 cm X 7.5cm X 5mm $730.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/146.jpg 56 gram part slice with crust. 7cm X 4cm X 5mm $280.00 (ON HOLD) http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/56.jpg 40 gram part slice with
Re: [meteorite-list] Recent significant larger US finds
Ann, Bob and others, Ann, thanx for chiming in and educating me and others on some other recent big finds. I was not forgetting Bob's famous Mars finds...I just was trying to consider the bigger US finds, but obviously none were more significant than those two beauties. I see from Bob's other posts that he continues to pave the way as one of our true meteorite hunters here on US soil. Way to go Bob, and Allan of course. By the way I voted for Bob to be on MTV tomorrow night. Everyone should do the same. Can you imagine, Snoop Dog, M M, and bolide chasing Bob Verish, all in the same night...I can't wait. Show-em we meteorite collectors are cool and not geeks Bob. No pressure, stay calm... John In a message dated 8/26/2003 4:12:47 PM Mountain Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Mike, thanx for the response to my inquiry. There maybe a couple more we are not thinking of There are quite a few more. Just for starters: - Lueders, found in 1973, recognized in 1996, silicated iron, TKW 35.4kilos - Independence and Delaware, found by Allen Shaw, He is on the List so I let him fill in the details. - Tolar, found in 1972, recognized in 2002. - LA 001 and 002, found and recognized in 1999. and of course all the Roosevelt County and the Lucerne Valley. Interesting how old finds are finally getting recognition. Rather encouraging, don't you think? Anne M. Black www. IMPACTIKA.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] IMCA #2356 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Recent significant larger US finds
Hello all, I was gently reminded (by someone who would know) that Gold Basin is a L4 and not a L5..a typo error on my part. Thanks Twink. From a faux pau-ing meteorite moffit, John Rob and others, I don't know the full story of the 87 kg Wagon Wound. According to the A to Z book it was found in 1932. My poorly stated question was meant to be, what are some of the recent finds (let's say the last 15 years) in the US that a few kilos became available to the public for sale?. I was reminded of Hope Creek a LL6 from Alaska in 1998 and Felt(b) a L3.5 from Oklahoma in 1990. And of of course we have Gold Basin identified in 1995, a L5 from Arizona. If the list is about that short for bigger finds then again I believe the Spade find to be significant for us in the states. John I would call Wagon Mound significant. -- Rob Wesel -- We are the music makers...and we are the dreamers of the dreams. Willy Wonka, 1971 - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Matt Morgan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 7:15 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] AD-SPADE slices for sale List members and Matt, The Spade meteorite looks and reads like a very special find. Congratulations to Matt for being the one to get involved with this new find. I was wondering what meteorite was the last significant find in the US that was shared with the public like this one...with a couple kilos (+3 kg) available for purchase? Just curious...I can't recall one in the last 4 or 5 years that I've been involved...except maybe Gold Basin of course. For me it(Spade) being an IMB is extra exciting because I find the impact melt breccias to be very unique materials. As I said to Matt, this type of material reminds of glass when looking at its' broken edges. The metal quantity looks extreme for the Spade material...even for an H. I also found the article on shock metamorphism by Dr. Rubin to be very interesting. Occurrences of S5, annealed back to S2, and then shocked again to S4, etc. for one example makes me wonder if some of the changes in petrologic levels actually occurs during these extreme shock and melt processes? Random thoughts as usual, John Hi Listees: Here is my offering of this new beauty. Funny... we purchased the Spade meteorite from the finder the day AFTER the Park Forest fall (which is why I wasn't at the PF fall site). The slices listed below are priced at ~5.00/g, on the low end of the impact melt price range so you can get a bigger piece for the $$$: 614 gram end piece $3000.00. A really spectacular piece and the largest available outside the main mass. Fully crusted back side, except where a sample was removed for analysis, and thin for an end piece. 14cm X 15cm X 1cm. http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/614-end.jpg 261 gram complete slice (except where sample was removed for analysis). 12.5cm X 14cm X 4mm $1305.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/261.jpg 256 gram complete slice (except where sample was removed for analysis). 14cm X 15cm X 3mm. $1280.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/256.jpg 146 gram part slice with crust. 8.5 cm X 7.5cm X 5mm $730.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/146.jpg 56 gram part slice with crust. 7cm X 4cm X 5mm $280.00 (ON HOLD) http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/56.jpg 40 gram part slice with crust. 4.5 cm X 4cm X 5mm $200.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/40.jpg 34 gram part slice with crust. 5cm X 3cm X 5mm $170.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/34.jpg 22 gram part slice with crust. 4.5 cm X 2.5 cm X 5mm $110.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/22.jpg 21 gram part slice with crust. 4.5 cm X 3cm X 5mm $105.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/21.jpg 20 gram part slice with crust. 3.3 cm X 3 cm X 5mm $100.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/20.jpg 19 gram part slice no crust. 4 cm X 2 cm X 5mm $95.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/19.jpg 18 gram part slice no crust. 4 cm X 2 cm X 5mm $90.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/18.jpg 16 gram part slice with crust. 3 cm X 2.2 cm X 5mm. $80.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/16.jpg 15 gram part slice no crust. 3.2 cm X 2.5 cm X 5mm. $75.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/15.jpg 15(b) gram part slice with no crust. 3.2 cm X 2.5 cm X 5mm. $75.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/15-b.jpg 10 gram part slice with no crust. 2.4 cm X 1.6 cm X 5mm. $50.00 http://www.mhmeteorites.com/images/spade/10.jpg 9 gram part slice with no crust. 2.8 cm X 1.4 cm X 5mm.
Re: [meteorite-list] Are chondrites sedimentary rocks?
Bernd, Martin and others, While I don't believe chondrites are sedimentary rocks as we know them, somewhere (? where, I'm not sure) I have read simple descriptions that imply that the collecting/coalescing of chondrules into a large group (ie. a great big rock!!!) is similar/akin to the accumulation of rock/soil/organic particles that make up many of our earthly sedimentary rocks. Small particles lumping together to make a rock...which is different than the creation of igneous rocks in magma chambers growing crystals of minerals, connecting to one another, etc. with magma makeup changes occuring as the pressure and temperature changes. Could that be what they were implying in that article? John Martin wrote: In the interview, Ebel makes two comments that made me wonder... First, he mentions that Most meteorites are pieces of asteroids. A very few are comets. My question is which very few? I figure the usual suspects are Orgueil and Murchison, but some comet experts I have talked with discount them and all other meteorites as being of cometary origin. .. do not forget Tagish Lake and to some extent Krymka (see David Weir's comments on Krymka on his website: ... This material is enriched in volatile siderophiles such as Ag, Tl, and Bi, and represents a late condensate from a metal-depleted region of the solar nebula, possibly related to cometary material. The second thing that caught my eye was when Ebel said, Chondrites are really sedimentary rocks made up of dust and then chondrules, these round droplets that were once molten and now are little beads, many containing glass, which were present in the solar system. He may have read O.R. Norton's comments in Joel Schiff's magazine: NORTON O.R. (1998) Are chondrites sedimentary rocks? (M! Feb. 1998, Vol. 4, No. 3, pp. 22-23). My question here is if chondrites can really be considered sedimentary rocks. The only references I have about sedimentary meteorites: TOMEOKA K. et al. (1997) Evidence for early sedimentary processes in a dark inclusion in the Vigarano CV3 chondrite (Meteoritics 32-4, 1997, A129). TOMEOKA K. et al. (1998) Arcuate band texture in a dark inclusion from the Vigarano CV3 chondrite: Possible evidence for early sedimentary processes (Meteoritics 33-3, 1998, 519-525). BRIDGES J.C. et al. (1998) Traces of Martian sediment in Nakhla and other SNC meteorites (Meteoritics 33-4, 1998, A023). Best wishes, Bernd To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Are chondrites sedimentary rocks?
Mark, I totally agree with your thinking on this. I did not intend anyone to think otherwise. My comment last night was only trying to put some kind of spin on what could be the thought process when someone uses chondrites and sedimentary rocks in the same reference. So, I too agree that they are not sedimentary rocks as we know them. I'll let others try to argue if they should even be mentioned in the same context. My apologies to anyone who might have been confused by my comments. My personal belief is that chondrites are formed by a process that is still not completely understood by us earth dwellers. I doubt if it will be. Models are just that...but let's keep trying. John Hi List I just have to comment on this. Sedimentary rock, in any definition found in geology and petrology books is matter which is laid down by either wind or water, then compacted over time into a durable rock. This is not how chondrules formed. Chondrules most likely are a coalescing of minute liquid droplets into larger droplets which is very different from the sedimentary process. It would be more accurate to liken it to the formation of a chondrule to that of a rain drop, but that might well be to simple a process to adequately describe chondrule formation since there are some high temperatures and very different pressures indicated . But to use sedimentation is not even close. Totally different mechanisms are involved, that much is sure. For anyone to use totally different processes and mechanisms is wrong for that only corrupts a new persons attempt understand meteoritics. Mark - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 2:51 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Are chondrites sedimentary rocks? Martin wrote: In the interview, Ebel makes two comments that made me wonder... First, he mentions that Most meteorites are pieces of asteroids. A very few are comets. My question is which very few? I figure the usual suspects are Orgueil and Murchison, but some comet experts I have talked with discount them and all other meteorites as being of cometary origin. .. do not forget Tagish Lake and to some extent Krymka (see David Weir's comments on Krymka on his website: ... This material is enriched in volatile siderophiles such as Ag, Tl, and Bi, and represents a late condensate from a metal-depleted region of the solar nebula, possibly related to cometary material. The second thing that caught my eye was when Ebel said, Chondrites are really sedimentary rocks made up of dust and then chondrules, these round droplets that were once molten and now are little beads, many containing glass, which were present in the solar system. He may have read O.R. Norton's comments in Joel Schiff's magazine: NORTON O.R. (1998) Are chondrites sedimentary rocks? (M! Feb. 1998, Vol. 4, No. 3, pp. 22-23). My question here is if chondrites can really be considered sedimentary rocks. The only references I have about sedimentary meteorites: TOMEOKA K. et al. (1997) Evidence for early sedimentary processes in a dark inclusion in the Vigarano CV3 chondrite (Meteoritics 32-4, 1997, A129). TOMEOKA K. et al. (1998) Arcuate band texture in a dark inclusion from the Vigarano CV3 chondrite: Possible evidence for early sedimentary processes (Meteoritics 33-3, 1998, 519-525). BRIDGES J.C. et al. (1998) Traces of Martian sediment in Nakhla and other SNC meteorites (Meteoritics 33-4, 1998, A023). Best wishes, Bernd To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Spade Versus Estacado
Adam and Greg, The picture (below) on Martin's site does support the similar appearance. If so, then Estacado is a special meteorite also...based on Dr. Rubin's analysis of Spade. Also, 35 miles does seem like a big strewn field but certainly not a stretch (to me) to be the same material. A pairing evaluation would be interesting. www.meteorite.com/gallery/estacado.htm John Dear List Members, I find the resemblance between Spade and Estacado remarkably indistinguishable. They are both from Texas and are both H6s. Has anybody checked for a pairing? All the best, Adam and Greg Hupe IMCA 2185 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Are chondrites sedimentary rocks?
Eric, Mark and others, Since I've opened my novice brain on this subject, I'll try to help this time. I think the settling process Eric is alluding to can in a sense be compared to taking a bunch of different size balls/BB shot and placing them in a container. Shake it a bit and what you have is a more compressed volume with the little ones filling in around the bigger ones eliminating most of the voids. When I look at any of my low value LL3's(3.0 to 3.5), I can see such a distribution...making the settling process quite palatable. Just a thought, John Hello List I rarely comment on anything, but I will throw my 2¢ in here. I think Dr. Ebel makes a good point. That bit of learning was brought home to me when Tim McCoy showed me the Smithsonian's spectacular Semarkona LL3.0 specimen. I exclaimed that it was like a sedimentary rock. (I had seen a few sedimentary rocks in my many years as a field geologist.) Dr. McCoy's response was that it really was a sedimentary rock. I had to agree. It is true that the Earth-oriented texts describe sedimentary rocks as settling out of air or water. But what else besides air and water is there on Earth? That misses the point. The operative process is the settling. Indeed, the word sediment is derived from a Latin verb that means to settle. I would say that it is not the origin of the grains that counts, but the process of deposition--the settling. The chondrules, mineral grains and glass that make up a chondrite form by various processes in space. They settled by gravity through the vacuum of space to their asteroid destination. The processes that makes them rock--induration as a geologist would say--are not that different that induration of Earth's sedimentary rocks. From there these rocks were metamorphosed (except Semarkona) and some were even melted. They became, in turn, sedimentary, metamorphic and igneous rocks--the three basic kinds of rocks we know here on Earth. Eric Twelker [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.meteoritemarket.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 01:43:18 + To: Mark Ferguson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Are chondrites sedimentary rocks? Mark, I totally agree with your thinking on this. I did not intend anyone to think otherwise. My comment last night was only trying to put some kind of spin on what could be the thought process when someone uses chondrites and sedimentary rocks in the same reference. So, I too agree that they are not sedimentary rocks as we know them. I'll let others try to argue if they should even be mentioned in the same context. My apologies to anyone who might have been confused by my comments. My personal belief is that chondrites are formed by a process that is still not completely understood by us earth dwellers. I doubt if it will be. Models are just that...but let's keep trying. John Hi List I just have to comment on this. Sedimentary rock, in any definition found in geology and petrology books is matter which is laid down by either wind or water, then compacted over time into a durable rock. This is not how chondrules formed. Chondrules most likely are a coalescing of minute liquid droplets into larger droplets which is very different from the sedimentary process. It would be more accurate to liken it to the formation of a chondrule to that of a rain drop, but that might well be to simple a process to adequately describe chondrule formation since there are some high temperatures and very different pressures indicated . But to use sedimentation is not even close. Totally different mechanisms are involved, that much is sure. For anyone to use totally different processes and mechanisms is wrong for that only corrupts a new persons attempt understand meteoritics. Mark - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 2:51 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Are chondrites sedimentary rocks? Martin wrote: In the interview, Ebel makes two comments that made me wonder... First, he mentions that Most meteorites are pieces of asteroids. A very few are comets. My question is which very few? I figure the usual suspects are Orgueil and Murchison, but some comet experts I have talked with discount them and all other meteorites as being of cometary origin. .. do not forget Tagish Lake and to some extent Krymka (see David Weir's comments on Krymka on his website: ... This material is enriched in volatile siderophiles such as Ag, Tl, and Bi, and represents a late condensate from a metal-depleted region of the solar nebula, possibly related to cometary material. The second thing that caught my eye was when Ebel said, Chondrites are really sedimentary rocks made up of dust and then chondrules, these round
Re: [meteorite-list] Spade Versus Estacado
Adam, Michael and especially Matt, I received a part slice of Spade from Matt today and I have to say that it is an extraordinary meteorite. In my collection I have nice slices of melts that include Chico(L6), Sahara 98362(H6), Dhofar 010(H6), Gao?(H5? from Eric Olsen), and a nice small cut up individual from NWA(unclassified) that are all superb. Spade is easily nicer than all of these materials. I do not have Cat Mountain but from the pictures I've seen, Spade is nicer than it in my opinion. Spade does not appear to have areas that are more melted than other areas like Cat Mountain and Dhofar 010 do. The intimate mix of lots of nice metal with the blackened matrix is just beautiful. Especially the polished side. The fractured edges have more of a glassy gray-metal look to it. The vesicles are evident but not as numerous as some melts. My piece has some vein-like areas where the metal is discontinuous but definitely in a pattern. Relic chondrules and inclusions are few and far between. (a thin section would be a better way to check for those) If Estacado is paired with Spade then it must be a favorite meteorite for others. Spade sure looks like unique material...though my experience is somewhat limited. Thanx for the opportunity Matt, John Hi Michael and List, I was not questioning Matt's integrity at all. Both meteorites were found in Texas less than 35 miles apart and are very similar in appearance. Since finely metal-grained H6s with dark matrixes and low shock are rare I feel a pairing must be considered. In any case both Spade and Estacado are beautiful stones. All the best, Adam - Original Message - From: Michael L Blood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Adam Hupe [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 11:29 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Spade Versus Estacado Bernd's observations and opinion are good enough for this cowboy. Also, isn't Matt's meteorite a US find? Matt's integrity is beyond question in my book. Michael on 8/29/03 9:00 AM, Adam Hupe at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear List Members, If somebody wants to sell an Estacado specimen and a Spade specimen to us at the Denver show we would be happy to donate them to a world class researcher who will also be at the show for comparative purposes. We are in the process of working with several laboratories to sort out NWA pairings (mainly the stony-irons) and have provided several samples to each facility. We have found that shock and weathering levels amongst other things are variable even from the same strewn field in many cases. The evenly disbursed, fine-grained metal gives Estacado the appearance that there is more metal than there actually is. I have only seen this texture in one other H chondrite and that is NWA 1792 before looking at Spade. Add the darkened matrix and you have a pretty stunning looking meteorite. After cutting thousands of NWA meteorites I have only seen this texture once, in my opinion making it rare. I think all suspected pairings should be investigated to keep the books clean, so to speak. All the best, Adam Hupe - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 8:38 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Spade Versus Estacado Hello once again, Another possible inconsistency: My Estacado thin section measures 2.3 x 1.6 cm (3.68 cm^2) and I found at least 7 relict POP chondrules and 1 relict, barred chondrule. This would also be in clear contrast to A.E. Rubin's statement: The impact melt origin of [Spade] is indicated by the low modal abundances of relict chondrules (1.8 vol.%) ... Bernd __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. Philip K. Dick -- SUPPORT OUR TROUPS: http://www.takebackthemedia.com/onearmy.html -- Worth Seeing: - Earth at night from satellite: http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0011/earthlights_dmsp_big.jpg - Interactive Lady Liberty: http://doody36.home.attbi.com/liberty.htm - Earth - variety of choices: http://www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/vplanet.html -- Panoramic view of Meteor Crater: http://www.virtualguidebooks.com/Arizona/GrandCanyonRoute66/MeteorCrater/Met eorCraterRimL.html -- Cool Calendar Clock: http://www.yugop.com/ver3/stuff/03/fla.html -- Michael Blood Meteorites Didgeridoos for sale at: http://www.michaelbloodmeteorites.com/
Re: [meteorite-list] Recent significant larger US finds
(Note: I just sent this note but it is held up, do to too many addresses...you may get it again, sorry) Allen and the List, When Matt announced his new US find, Spade, I began to wonder about the other recent significant finds here in the US. Thanx to many responses I am now more appreciative of the efforts that have gone on to recover meteorites here in the states. Allan from what I can see you are the reigning champ for finding/acquiring bigger meteorites here at home in the last 10 to 15 years or so. The names came in...and I began my understanding of what has transpired in recent times. I also learned (from MAPS) that the list of smaller finds in Arizona, California, Nevada, New Mexico, etc. is quite long also. Below is an unofficial list made from the suggestions given to the list in response to my inquiry. Please feel free to correct me where I'm wrong, or fill in the blanks that I have given up on for now. Here goes in no particular order... Found Recognized Spade, TXH6 (IMB) 8.3 kg 2000 2003 Wagon Mound, NM L6 87.5 1932 1999 Tinnie, NM ATAX iron 15.3 1978 1998 RooseveltC102 NM L5 8.0 1988 1998 Hope Creek, AK LL6 9.8 1998 Felt (b), OK L3.5 5.6 1990 Gold Basin, AZ L4 61.0+ 1995 Golden Rule, AZ L5 0.8 1999 Benjamin, TX H4/551.8 1969 1998 Delaware, AR L4 8.3 1972 2001 Independence, MO L6 0.9 1917 2000 ? Powellsville, OH H5 4.3+?1990 Eads, CO H4 17.8 1975 ? Slaton, TX L4 1.1 1941 ? St Augustine, IL IID iron22.0 1974 1999 Overland Park, KS H4 1.3 1998 Hebron, Neb H6 21.8 1965 1998 Lueders, TX Sil. iron 35.4 1973 1996 Tolar, NMH4 5.4 1972 2001 LA 001/002, CA Shergottite 0.7 19?? 1999 Dirk also gave us Wiseman(AK), Wild Horse(CO), Wichita(Kan), and Ross Canyon (TX) that I couldn't find anything on in the short time I looked. I also thought it was worthy to mention Steve Shoner's 1997 find of the 20.2 main mass of the Glorieta Mountain pallasite from New Mexico...an 1884 find. Well I'm more encouraged that big meteorites are out there...but I doubt if it got any easier to find them. Thanx to those who contributed, John Independence, Mo. was a witnessed fall in 1917 or 18. Very fresh interior as it was kept indoors soon after its fall. Delaware was found when the fusion crust was still dark, but the finder kept in in the moist Arkansas climate for 20 years. Benjamin, Tx. weighed in @ 115 pounds. Oza the other Shaw recovered that one. 90% of it is in a private collection. Powellsville , Oh. is definately a strewn field, as I have recoverd 5 individuals from that area. Then there is Eads, Slaton, St. Augustine (awsomely oriented), Overland Park, have I forgot any? Ahh yes Hebron back in 1998. --Allen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 6:25 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Recent significant larger US finds In a message dated 8/26/2003 4:12:47 PM Mountain Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Mike, thanx for the response to my inquiry. There maybe a couple more we are not thinking of There are quite a few more. Just for starters: - Lueders, found in 1973, recognized in 1996, silicated iron, TKW 35.4kilos - Independence and Delaware, found by Allen Shaw, He is on the List so I let him fill in the details. - Tolar, found in 1972, recognized in 2002. - LA 001 and 002, found and recognized in 1999. and of course all the Roosevelt County and the Lucerne Valley. Interesting how old finds are finally getting recognition. Rather encouraging, don't you think? Anne M. Black www. IMPACTIKA.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] IMCA #2356 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Seaching MAPS
hello all, When the Meteoritical Bulletins come out...I usually just print them out. Being old-fashioned I like to look at paper or a book before I look at a computer screen. However, it makes it tough to search for anything other than the my old fashioned way of just looking for it in the different bulletins. It has to be easier than this... Could someone explain to me what the different options are associated with receiving and using these bulletins. How to do a search? Does one have to belong to the society to get better info, etc. I'm not sure what is available other than what I see in the bulletin .pdf files. Help, JohnPS What does MAPS stand for anyway __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] MAPS Subscription
Rob and Bernd, Thanx guys for keeping me and others straight on such things. My apologies to all. I can't blame it on smoking something good this morning...though it might help in my case. When I went to the meteoritics.org site today...I went to what I thought was the Subscribe page and that's where I got the cost$$$. Now, I noticed it is the cost for an Institutional Subscription...whatever the hell that is. (Must be alot more stuff than the Journal itself). That site needs to be more clear about what the heck they are offering. If one is in the know it is easy I'm sure. Help...where does one go to get the MAPS journal for $150/yr? I'm going into List hibernation...alright, that's enough applause now!!! John For only $880/year for 12 issues or about $75/issue For heaven's sake, if it was really that expensive, I surely wouldn't be able to afford my subscription any longer :-) I had to pay approx. $150 for a one-year subscription !!! Bernd To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] MAPS Subscription
LAST ONE ON THIS! Just become a member of the Meteoritical Society. It is only $110.00 /year and you gets MAPS. Must be a bit more overseas. John Rob and Bernd, Thanx guys for keeping me and others straight on such things. My apologies to all. I can't blame it on smoking something good this morning...though it might help in my case. When I went to the meteoritics.org site today...I went to what I thought was the Subscribe page and that's where I got the cost$$$. Now, I noticed it is the cost for an Institutional Subscription...whatever the hell that is. (Must be alot more stuff than the Journal itself). That site needs to be more clear about what the heck they are offering. If one is in the know it is easy I'm sure. Help...where does one go to get the MAPS journal for $150/yr? I'm going into List hibernation...alright, that's enough applause now!!! John For only $880/year for 12 issues or about $75/issue For heaven's sake, if it was really that expensive, I surely wouldn't be able to afford my subscription any longer :-) I had to pay approx. $150 for a one-year subscription !!! Bernd To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Seaching MAPS
Thanx to Bernd and Jeff K for letting me know the acronym for MAPS. I'm a little slow sometimes. Meteoritics And Planetary Science...DAH??? The bulletins for the new meteorites classified are supplements that typically come out in the summer. (I'm rehashing all this for the newbies and slow to learn like myself). For only $880/year for 12 issues or about $75/issue...I/you can get a subscription to their journal. It must be the nice pictures that Robert Matson was alluding to the other day that makes it so special. Actually the abstracts are interesting in themselves. I wish I could afford it...maybe I could get it if I stopped buying new meteorites. This has be the front line for new, detailed information on meteoritics. John PS Jeff also said to use the Find button to searchthe bulletins...I'll try that too. hello all, When the Meteoritical Bulletins come out...I usually just print them out. Being old-fashioned I like to look at paper or a book before I look at a computer screen. However, it makes it tough to search for anything other than the my old fashioned way of just looking for it in the different bulletins. It has to be easier than this... Could someone explain to me what the different options are associated with receiving and using these bulletins. How to do a search? Does one have to belong to the society to get better info, etc. I'm not sure what is available other than what I see in the bulletin .pdf files. Help, JohnPS What does MAPS stand for anyway __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] eBay notices and posting quotas
Elton and others, The ebay sales notices are annoying, but tolerable for the most part...they have yet to come even close to raising my ire like the barrage of trivial trade offerings we used to get. Some of you may recall my tantrums over those. If they start again to any degree...I'll probably go off again. Once a week sounds fine for the most part...but my latest bug has to be the occasional beating over the head we get when someone's auctions are not going as well as they would like...and the message comes out in-so-much telling us to get off our butts and bid on their items or we'll miss out the greatest deals of all time. As Elton says...most of us who might be interested in buying something know who is selling what and when. Especially the ones with the bigger auctions or the nicest material. And a few individuals will probably never get a bid from me...and that's the way it is. Reminding us that some nice material is available...once a week at the most sounds OK to me. But to tell me your Nantans or NWA chondrites are going cheap...hurry or miss out...come on, get serious. John eBay auction noticesarghh! While I once defended their posting, in my eyes they have become all too redundant and a few are obnoxious. Since the early days of this list the number of dealers has tripled so by shear numbers the amount of postings have taken a hog share of traffic. There are two frequent areas of abuse I see in them. This list is worldwide now and just like some threads here the sun never sets on it! The notice telling me an auction ends in an hour without telling me which date and hour you are referring to-- is virtually worthless unless I am online the same time you are. Someone suggested by convention you state in eBay time when the auctions close. (BTW an hour's notice is really worthless to mose users anyway when you think about the timing of things.) In large the old time dealers aren't as as insensitive as the late comers , however, the barrage of notices make me want to place a weekly quota on the number of posts about eBay auctions. I propose ONE only in a seven day period. Either the start or the approaching end of an auction series-- let the seller choose which is more important. Serious dealers (ahem) have the savvy to set up their own announcement lists and/or to use the meteorite sale list. Those more interested in selling/ trading (vs. bragging and cyber-battery) use the meteorite sale list--An underutilized resource lost time and again on some of the most flagrant abusers--but I digress. If you ARE going to make an announcement, make it worth my time. If you are posting just to tell me you have some auctions on ebay...(yawn) we both have better things to do. If you have something NOTEWORTHY tell me what it is and be specific. Understand that if I am a typical buyer, I am already working through the ebay catagory on a regular basis and I have SEEN your auctions. If I am a fan of yours, I have already gone thru your entire list a second time. I am not a list rule maker but I think I am expressing what others want to say or have said time and again. Speaking of rules... the requirement to place a SALE or AD(ADVERT?) in the subject line on any post of that nature is probably the most abused rule list I am aware of. Whatever is used please standardize it so mail filters can be setup that work. Lets choose up sides and let the replies begin. Elton __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Recent significant larger US finds
Hello all, This is my last post on this. A couple corrections and additions. First off...it is Steve Schoner (not Shoner) for the 20.2 kg Glorieta Mt find. Secondly, the Spade meteorite was 8.86 kg not 8.3 kg. Thirdly...I think the four other names that I mentioned that Dirk sent us are still in classification. There are probably others like this in review and yet to be announced by the Society. And finally...after reviewing Bulletins 87(2003), 86 and 85...I came up with a few more finds of significant size from US/Canada. They are... Chuckwalla, CA Iron(IAB) 1.8 kg Found 1992 Recog. 2003? Elbert, CO LL60.6 Fell 1/11/98 Found 2000 Milton, Missouri Pallasite 2.04Found 2000 Sandy Creek, Neb L5 1.3 Found 1999 Hagersville, Ontario Iron(IAB) 30.0 Found 1999 Lost Creek, KS H3.8 4.0 Found 1916 Recog. 2001 Ghahana, OH Iron (IAB) 1.2 Found 1990 Recog. 1995 Griffith, TX Axatite6.0 Found 1985 Recog. 1999? The 86/85 bulletins also had a number of smaller US finds like the 87 bulletin. Many by list member Bob Verish. Regards, John (Note: I just sent this note but it is held up, do to too many addresses...you may get it again, sorry) Allen and the List, When Matt announced his new US find, Spade, I began to wonder about the other recent significant finds here in the US. Thanx to many responses I am now more appreciative of the efforts that have gone on to recover meteorites here in the states. Allan from what I can see you are the reigning champ for finding/acquiring bigger meteorites here at home in the last 10 to 15 years or so. The names came in...and I began my understanding of what has transpired in recent times. I also learned (from MAPS) that the list of smaller finds in Arizona, California, Nevada, New Mexico, etc. is quite long also. Below is an unofficial list made from the suggestions given to the list in response to my inquiry. Please feel free to correct me where I'm wrong, or fill in the blanks that I have given up on for now. Here goes in no particular order... Found Recognized Spade, TXH6 (IMB) 8.3 kg 2000 2003 Wagon Mound, NM L6 87.5 1932 1999 Tinnie, NM ATAX iron 15.3 1978 1998 RooseveltC102 NM L5 8.0 1988 1998 Hope Creek, AK LL6 9.8 1998 Felt (b), OK L3.5 5.6 1990 Gold Basin, AZ L4 61.0+ 1995 Golden Rule, AZ L5 0.8 1999 Benjamin, TX H4/551.8 1969 1998 Delaware, AR L4 8.3 1972 2001 Independence, MO L6 0.9 1917 2000 ? Powellsville, OH H5 4.3+?1990 Eads, CO H4 17.8 1975 ? Slaton, TX L4 1.1 1941 ? St Augustine, IL IID iron22.0 1974 1999 Overland Park, KS H4 1.3 1998 Hebron, Neb H6 21.8 1965 1998 Lueders, TX Sil. iron 35.4 1973 1996 Tolar, NMH4 5.4 1972 2001 LA 001/002, CA Shergottite 0.7 19?? 1999 Dirk also gave us Wiseman(AK), Wild Horse(CO), Wichita(Kan), and Ross Canyon (TX) that I couldn't find anything on in the short time I looked. I also thought it was worthy to mention Steve Shoner's 1997 find of the 20.2 main mass of the Glorieta Mountain pallasite from New Mexico...an 1884 find. Well I'm more encouraged that big meteorites are out there...but I doubt if it got any easier to find them. Thanx to those who contributed, John Independence, Mo. was a witnessed fall in 1917 or 18. Very fresh interior as it was kept indoors soon after its fall. Delaware was found when the fusion crust was still dark, but the finder kept in in the moist Arkansas climate for 20 years. Benjamin, Tx. weighed in @ 115 pounds. Oza the other Shaw recovered that one. 90% of it is in a private collection. Powellsville , Oh. is definately a strewn field, as I have recoverd 5 individuals from that area. Then there is Eads, Slaton, St. Augustine (awsomely oriented), Overland Park, have I forgot any? Ahh yes Hebron back in 1998. --Allen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 6:25 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Recent significant larger US finds In a message dated 8/26/2003 4:12:47 PM Mountain Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Mike, thanx for the response to my inquiry. There maybe a couple more we are
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 1139 and numbering NWA's
Chris and Mike F, I'm certainly no expert at this but as I understand it...the purchaser(first, second, third, etc.?? who knows) of a NWA meteorite may decide to ask for a number from the NonCom(group that gives out numbers/names) to give it an identity at a minimum. If they get a number...then he/she can use that to help get it classified if they can find someone to do it. They may also feel that this is way it can be tracked/labeled...giving it an identity, and possibly gives it more worth for resale. Personally I think it is a waste of time to get a number unless followed through with classification. But I maybe wrong with that statement??? The Sahara's are done the same way...given numbers but only a portion are classified. It is easier said than done to get a classification from what is obvious in the threads seen on the list in the past. As far as an individual from NWA having a number...and then calling it the main mass. To me that is not reality. No offense Mark or anyone else who does this...but why in the world would you believe it is the biggest piece from a particular fall in the African desert? I guess giving it a name allows one to say that it is the biggest one with that number...main mass?...hardly I suspect. Same goes for the Sahara's. Personally I don't think the term main mass should be used with individually numbered pieces/groups from the deserts. What is the right use for main mass??? May I ask a question...Is it better to give them all numbers to gain an identity? Maybe so...Mark might be doing the right thing, even if he had no intention of getting it classified. I suspect the total number of orphan NWA,s (without numbers) probably far exceeds the ones with numbers. Back to Mike Fowlers earlier question. I think it was along the lines of Does every individual piece have to be sliced and classified to be sure it came from the same meteorite find/fall? This is a gray area from my perception...obviously it is not done when respectable dealers/collectors have their act together with verifying that the same material has been kept together. We have heard of Dean's problems like the BL group of beautiful stones that were challenged How do you know they are the same fall without classifying them all. So, Mike trust me when I say that there are those out there who go by the rigid code It is not a meteorite unless it has a name from NomCom and it has been classified. Even when you and I know it is a meteorite when we look at it. I guess I'm done. For all you new guys there is a rich history of threads in the archives that covers these subjects in great detail...with no clean ending. John So, a meteorite with a number such as NWA 1139 is not necessarily classified but was assigned the number for record keeping? Christopher - Original Message - From: MARK BOSTICK To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; Meteorite List Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 9:29 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 1139 Hello Mike and list, Mike wrote: The original post about NWA 1139 was mine. Sorry if I ruffled any feathers with my question, it was not my intention. No problem Mike. I did warn you at the start of the e-mail that I just spent the day with the family.:-) Is a number a name? Most I think do consider a number a name. However, a meteorite with a non-number name usually sells for more then one with a number name. Mike Also wrote: Will you be selling any more of those digital scales on ebay? Steve Arnold, proud owner of NWA 1139 main mass, says they're a good deal. I have the scales on sale at my website, www.meteoritearticles.com. Several list members have purchased one and all have been pleased. Mark Bostick www.MeteoriteArticles.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] meteorite photography scales
Svend and others, I would believe most are centimeter cubes. 10 millimeters in a cube...2.57 cubes in an inch, etc. John __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Re: September MeteoriteTimes Is Up (and US Finds)
(Note: I sent this post yesterday but it seems to be lost in the deep realms of cyberspace..maybe it impact melted into another message to another list) Geoff and others, In mentioning meteorite names and the folks involved in finding/recovering them in the US, I was remiss in not including Rob in those recent posts. This morning when I was reading the meteorite people section (usually the first section I go to)...it hit me like a hammerstone that we/I didn't include Rob in those. My apologies Rob...you may go to the front row without a pass. Way to go and congrats on being recognized properly in the Times. Humbly, John Paul posted: MeteoriteTimes for September is up. Dear Listees: Do not miss the interview with List member Robert Matson (use the Meteorite People link) in the new edition of Meteorite Times. Excellent field photos of some impressive American discoveries by a *very* successful meteorite hunter with 65 finds to his credit (!!). Well done Robert (and Paul and Jim, of course). Regards, Geoff N. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] meteorite photography scales
Svend and others, 2.57 I must not have been awake. It is 25.4 mm per cm and 2.54 cm per inch. From the so-called Professional Mechanical Engineer, John Svend and others, I would believe most are centimeter cubes. 10 millimeters in a cube...2.57 cubes in an inch, etc. John __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] meteorite photography scales
Ah..good job Michael you passed the test...and you wanta meet my wife... Morgan Fairchild...ya that's it. Sheesh...I better stop now. Thanx guys for keeping me down and out...pass me the bottle, JD on 9/5/03 2:11 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Svend and others, 2.57 I must not have been awake. It is 25.4 mm per cm and 2.54 cm per inch. From the so-called Professional Mechanical Engineer, John still got it wrong. I may not know per inch, but it is TEN mm per cm not 25.4 Michael __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] THE MOON !!
List members, Ah the moon. Did anyone watch the special on Discovery tonight about the moon? The bottom line that was reinforced for me from that special is that the earth would not be the wondrous planet we all share without it! If it would go away today...our axis of rotation would go to chaos and our weather would do the same, probably killing just about everything in a relatively short time. Hail to the moon! Is it an accident that it is there? (PLEASE don't answer that one to keep the peace) What I did not realize is that a typical day a few billion years ago was only 18 hours or so. And in the future the days will be longer than our normal 24 hours because the moon continues to move away a couple inches or 5.08+/- centimeters every year. Did I get it right this time Norbert? ;-) Now, as an owner of a similar slice of the same anorthosite lunar being offered from Norbert, I have to tell you that I think it is exceptional material. As is owning any piece of the moon. The price he sells this at is as good as it gets for something this special. As for a pairing to the others...it may be, but it looks unique unto itself in my humble opinion. Breccia or bedrock?? I believe Norbert mentioned to me that it may be the deepest material found yet of the lunar anorthosites. Time will tell with its' classification. So celebrate the moon, and when you get a chance make sure your collection includes a piece some day. Maybe tomorrow Loonier John PS Norbert...please send the endorsement payment to 4321 Blastoff Rd, Reading PA (Just DELETE if you hate eBay, and/or ADs...) Hi all, I've some rather special auctions ending on Sunday, Sept. 17, ~18:00 PDT, including three low priced lunar specimens (a very beautiful new one, and a neat mare basalt), and a great specimen of Ibitira, the unique vesicular and unbrecciated eucrite. If you like, have a look at: http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItemsuserid=ivuna Or do a search for my eBay user handle ivuna. Thanks for your interest - enjoy the high-res pictures. Best, Norbert Classen PS: All of my auctions are just for raising funds for other meteorite acquisitions. No profit involved. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] RE: Meteor, Alsace France
Norbert, Sergey and any of the other honor-ies on the list, Congratulations on your accomplishment and honor. I would guess the competition was fierce. That show looks like one of the pilgrimages we all should make. Hope to see you all there one day. Thanx for sharing. John Hi Dave, hi list, Here's a piece of evidence that might answer your question: http://www.timewarp.de/new/Ensis2003a.jpg The picture was taken after the opening of this years Ensisheim fair, Alsace, France (right in front of the Regency Palace). To the right, you'll spot the famous Meteor beer tent. To the left, you have a group of funny people with plates around their necks, and some diploma in their hands, certifying that they drank more Meteor beer than any other attendant ;-)) In fact, this is the group of people who got honored this year and who became members of the St. George's Fraternity of the Guardians of the Ensisheim meteorite. From left to right: Prof. Lefebvre (Belgium), myself, Ali Hmani (Morocco), Sergey Vasiliev (Prague), and Giorgio Tomelleri (Italy). To Giorgio's left you see Marc Labenne lurking (the guy with the red T-shirt and the sun glasses). There are some other list members in the background - can you name 'em ;-? Best, Norbert PS: Of course, the Meteor beer brand was named for the famous Thunderstone of Ensisheim, long ago. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Hello List, I have a slightly off topic story and question here: My parents were emptying their attic and told me to come over to go through my junk. As I was going through I came across some 0.25 liter beer glasses from a trip to France I took when I was 15. I had enjoyed the bar and wanted a small memento, thus the glasses were purchased. At the time I had no clue about meteorites/meteorite history, so my purchase had nothing to do with my current interest in this field. The glasses say METEOR on them. I'm not sure if it the name of the Pub or a local beer. Is anyone familiar with the Meteor Pub/Restaurant or Meteor beer in Alsace France? I figured that since the Ensisheim Show was there, some of you - (excuse me) MOST of you may know this Pub. Is there any meteor history to it? The imprint on the glass reads METEOR La biere du village de Hochfelden ALSACE Thanks, Dave Marsocci __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] THE MOON !!
Norbert, After reading my post from last night I realized I did a(nother) meteorite list faux pas when I speculated on the depth of your material, as in source depth on the moon. First off...I should not speculate on others material when it is in for classification...a very bad move. Secondly...Norbert was only answering my inquiry (by his own speculation possibly) after I received my piece and I said that it looked more like bedrock than breccia. I am no expert...so my fingers and brain should have kept those words to myself. As for endorsing his material...that comes from me who simply thinks it is fine material. I better stop here. Sincerely sorry, John List members, Ah the moon. Did anyone watch the special on Discovery tonight about the moon? The bottom line that was reinforced for me from that special is that the earth would not be the wondrous planet we all share without it! If it would go away today...our axis of rotation would go to chaos and our weather would do the same, probably killing just about everything in a relatively short time. Hail to the moon! Is it an accident that it is there? (PLEASE don't answer that one to keep the peace) What I did not realize is that a typical day a few billion years ago was only 18 hours or so. And in the future the days will be longer than our normal 24 hours because the moon continues to move away a couple inches or 5.08+/- centimeters every year. Did I get it right this time Norbert? ;-) Now, as an owner of a similar slice of the same anorthosite lunar being offered from Norbert, I have to tell you that I think it is exceptional material. As is owning any piece of the moon. The price he sells this at is as good as it gets for something this special. As for a pairing to the others...it may be, but it looks unique unto itself in my humble opinion. Breccia or bedrock?? I believe Norbert mentioned to me that it may be the deepest material found yet of the lunar anorthosites. Time will tell with its' classification. So celebrate the moon, and when you get a chance make sure your collection includes a piece some day. Maybe tomorrow Loonier John PS Norbert...please send the endorsement payment to 4321 Blastoff Rd, Reading PA (Just DELETE if you hate eBay, and/or ADs...) Hi all, I've some rather special auctions ending on Sunday, Sept. 17, ~18:00 PDT, including three low priced lunar specimens (a very beautiful new one, and a neat mare basalt), and a great specimen of Ibitira, the unique vesicular and unbrecciated eucrite. If you like, have a look at: http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItemsuserid=ivuna Or do a search for my eBay user handle ivuna. Thanks for your interest - enjoy the high-res pictures. Best, Norbert Classen PS: All of my auctions are just for raising funds for other meteorite acquisitions. No profit involved. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Cold hunting
Dave, Being a former resident of Western PA and now living in Eastern PA...it is hard to imagine how difficult it would be find a meteorite on the ground surface in this jungle of a state. I would suspect the high amount of precipitation and the extreme temperatures seen through the year would be real tough on an LL6 chondrite over a 75 year period. However, if your are ever looking for a partner to go look...let me know, I'll make plans to be there if I can. I visit that part of the state quite often to see family, and for work. In our case(here in PA) with an extremely high deposition rate, the effort to find new specimens would probably be more effective by going door to door and asking like Nininger in the past, and Alan Shaw and others in recent times. The use of a metal detector in the know vicinity of the Chicora finds would be the next best thing. Good luck if you get started without me, John The comment was made that: If you want to reduce search time per (cold) meteorite find (i.e. non-strewnfield), the #1 factor is survival time -- you must maximize it any way you can: 1. Low deposition rate -- ideally a ~negative~ deposition rate: you'd prefer a surface that is deflating 2. Low annual precipitation 3. Minimal human presence There is yet another way. Search a known strewn field - not one that has been picked over but one that has not. For instance, there have been 8 falls/finds in Pennsylvania - 3 near my home town of Pittsburgh. Not many pieces have been recovered. Barring weathering, there is a good chance that these strewn fields may yet be fertile, particularly for stony meteorites. The incoming Chicora meteoroid was observed by many in 1938 and calculations indicate that the total incoming mass was around 519 tons before it exploded about 12 miles up. Only four pieces were ever recovered. I just bet there are pieces yet to be found. When I retire, I hope to search this area - it's my square mile!! Dave P. Hi Norm and List, As an exploration geologist, I spend at least 15-20 long days every month wandering the alluvial fans and dry lakes of Nevada searching for mineralized float (and, unofficially, meteorites!). Some of the remote dry lakes are almost certainly unsearched, and can cover many square miles. You might be surprised. Aside from playas on military installations (which in Nevada is a pretty big fraction!) I'm fairly confident that most of the major dry lakes in Nevada (and California) have been searched at least once by one or more competent meteorite hunters. Of course, they haven't been searched completely; indeed, no location can ever be completely searched due to the dynamic nature of playas. Putting along on my ATV, I can give a reasonably large area a pretty decent search. After several years of this, still NO cold finds. This is actually a bit surprising, though I can think of a couple factors which could bring it about: 1. your size threshold (how small a stone you will stop for) 2. too broad a search image By broad search image I mean that your primary target (mineralized float) is so dissimilar to your secondary target (meteorites) that the subconscious pattern-matching that your brain is trying to accomplish will suffer. (It's hard enough picking out meteorites among terrestrial brown and black rocks). I think the point may be that there's a pretty good chance that stones have at some point fallen on most any square mile of earth's surface. Absolutely. Even if each fall produced only a single meteorite, in any square mile you could expect a fall about once every 5000 years. However, the average number of meteorites per fall is certainly more than one (perhaps in the neighborhood of a half dozen?), so this improves things. Maybe a meteorite every 2500 years per square mile (a complex problem that requires some Monte Carlo modeling to come up with a good figure). This leads to Norm's next point: However, in most areas, survival times are short. In many areas, erosion has erased the record. In other areas, deposition has buried every trace. Exactly. I liked this wording: From the cosmic perspective, every square mile is created equal, but for us grunts on the ground, that's far from the case. Some square miles are just right. Most are not. If you want to reduce search time per (cold) meteorite find (i.e. non-strewnfield), the #1 factor is survival time -- you must maximize it any way you can: 1. Low deposition rate -- ideally a ~negative~ deposition rate: you'd prefer a surface that is deflating 2. Low annual precipitation 3. Minimal human presence Fortunately point #3 tends to go naturally with #2. It's only in the modern era of weekend warriors (and meteorite hunters!) that #3 has become an issue. Still, the historical
Re: [meteorite-list] Cold hunting
it is Allen Shaw...not Alan, Sorry Allen, John Dave, Being a former resident of Western PA and now living in Eastern PA...it is hard to imagine how difficult it would be find a meteorite on the ground surface in this jungle of a state. I would suspect the high amount of precipitation and the extreme temperatures seen through the year would be real tough on an LL6 chondrite over a 75 year period. However, if your are ever looking for a partner to go look...let me know, I'll make plans to be there if I can. I visit that part of the state quite often to see family, and for work. In our case(here in PA) with an extremely high deposition rate, the effort to find new specimens would probably be more effective by going door to door and asking like Nininger in the past, and Alan Shaw and others in recent times. The use of a metal detector in the know vicinity of the Chicora finds would be the next best thing. Good luck if you get started without me, John The comment was made that: If you want to reduce search time per (cold) meteorite find (i.e. non-strewnfield), the #1 factor is survival time -- you must maximize it any way you can: 1. Low deposition rate -- ideally a ~negative~ deposition rate: you'd prefer a surface that is deflating 2. Low annual precipitation 3. Minimal human presence There is yet another way. Search a known strewn field - not one that has been picked over but one that has not. For instance, there have been 8 falls/finds in Pennsylvania - 3 near my home town of Pittsburgh. Not many pieces have been recovered. Barring weathering, there is a good chance that these strewn fields may yet be fertile, particularly for stony meteorites. The incoming Chicora meteoroid was observed by many in 1938 and calculations indicate that the total incoming mass was around 519 tons before it exploded about 12 miles up. Only four pieces were ever recovered. I just bet there are pieces yet to be found. When I retire, I hope to search this area - it's my square mile!! Dave P. Hi Norm and List, As an exploration geologist, I spend at least 15-20 long days every month wandering the alluvial fans and dry lakes of Nevada searching for mineralized float (and, unofficially, meteorites!). Some of the remote dry lakes are almost certainly unsearched, and can cover many square miles. You might be surprised. Aside from playas on military installations (which in Nevada is a pretty big fraction!) I'm fairly confident that most of the major dry lakes in Nevada (and California) have been searched at least once by one or more competent meteorite hunters. Of course, they haven't been searched completely; indeed, no location can ever be completely searched due to the dynamic nature of playas. Putting along on my ATV, I can give a reasonably large area a pretty decent search. After several years of this, still NO cold finds. This is actually a bit surprising, though I can think of a couple factors which could bring it about: 1. your size threshold (how small a stone you will stop for) 2. too broad a search image By broad search image I mean that your primary target (mineralized float) is so dissimilar to your secondary target (meteorites) that the subconscious pattern-matching that your brain is trying to accomplish will suffer. (It's hard enough picking out meteorites among terrestrial brown and black rocks). I think the point may be that there's a pretty good chance that stones have at some point fallen on most any square mile of earth's surface. Absolutely. Even if each fall produced only a single meteorite, in any square mile you could expect a fall about once every 5000 years. However, the average number of meteorites per fall is certainly more than one (perhaps in the neighborhood of a half dozen?), so this improves things. Maybe a meteorite every 2500 years per square mile (a complex problem that requires some Monte Carlo modeling to come up with a good figure). This leads to Norm's next point: However, in most areas, survival times are short. In many areas, erosion has erased the record. In other areas, deposition has buried every trace. Exactly. I liked this wording: From the cosmic perspective, every square mile is created equal, but for us grunts on the ground, that's far from the case. Some square miles are just right. Most are not. If you want to reduce search time per (cold) meteorite find (i.e. non-strewnfield), the #1 factor is survival time -- you must maximize it any way you can: 1. Low deposition rate -- ideally a ~negative~ deposition rate: you'd prefer a surface that is deflating 2. Low annual precipitation 3. Minimal human presence Fortunately
Re: [meteorite-list] PURTARANO
Steve and others, A few months ago I posted a thread to the list that basically said that while the Putorana looks like a mesosiderite...that when I compared it to Vaca Muerta in thin section, they look nothing alike at all. Plain and simple the Putorana looks like the basalt that it has been identified as. My question to others is why did it take so long to figure that out when it seems so obvious to a novice like me...in thin section?. Are there other mesosiderites that look like basalt in thin section? If so, which ones? If not...were the researchers considering it to be a new type? Also noteworthy is that Ivan (finmet) is selling Putorana again, and his description is alluding to it being considered to be extraterrestrial again, because in his/others words...such a rock cannot exist on earth (native iron separated within a rock). Does anyone know what is going on with the research of this material. Is it really being considered to from out of this world again? Putorana sure looks like basalt to me...and it does not like any eucrite or diogentite that I've seen in thin section...which are the known rock parts of mesosiderites. Puzzled again, John Wow what a beautiful piece of earth rock.It is so hard to believe that this is not a meteorite, in stead of meteorwrong.I want to thank matt morgan for letting me purchase a piece of PURTARANO.I just got a 219 gram slice.This thing is gorgeous.It looks so much like a stony iron.It looks alot like morristown.Thanks again to matt for letting me have this great looking slice. steve arnold = Steve R.Arnold, Chicago, IL, 60120 I. M. C. A. MEMBER #6728 Illinois Meteorites website url http://stormbringer60120.tripod.com http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/illinoismeteorites/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re 2: [meteorite-list] PUTORANA not PURTARANO
List members, I'll respond to my own thread by going one step further...recognizing that eucrites and terrestrial basalts are chemically about the same. However, looking at the few eucrites I have, they are much finer grained and less colorful than the Putorana basalt. The plagioclase needles are much larger and more prevalent in the Putorana sample I have when compared to the eucrites I have. Putorana looks something like the terrestrial basalt photo on page 154 of the Cambridge Encylcopedia of Meteorites by Norton. The Putorana is even more colorful and is loaded with twinnig plag needles and moderately sized pheoncrysts of pyroxene and olivine than that basalt picture on 154. Putorana does look like a couple sections I have, but they are terrestrial gabbros...one being a plain old (but beautiful) diabase and the other is a modified(cooked) gabbro called metadiabase. The diabase and Putorana look very much alike in thin section ...minus the metal seen in Putorana. Even my Zagami section, a Mars basalt, looks nothing like Putorana in thin section. See 169 for sample of it. So, can anyone tell us that they have seen a eucrite that looks like Putorana in thin section? Maybe I'll get someone to post some of my pictures on their site to compare. I'll also contact Jeff Rowell for his take on this issue...he has a number of sections including Putorana and several eucrites. John Steve and others, A few months ago I posted a thread to the list that basically said that while the Putorana looks like a mesosiderite...that when I compared it to Vaca Muerta in thin section, they look nothing alike at all. Plain and simple the Putorana looks like the basalt that it has been identified as. My question to others is why did it take so long to figure that out when it seems so obvious to a novice like me...in thin section?. Are there other mesosiderites that look like basalt in thin section? If so, which ones? If not...were the researchers considering it to be a new type? Also noteworthy is that Ivan (finmet) is selling Putorana again, and his description is alluding to it being considered to be extraterrestrial again, because in his/others words...such a rock cannot exist on earth (native iron separated within a rock). Does anyone know what is going on with the research of this material. Is it really being considered to from out of this world again? Putorana sure looks like basalt to me...and it does not like any eucrite or diogentite that I've seen in thin section...which are the known rock parts of mesosiderites. Puzzled again, John Wow what a beautiful piece of earth rock.It is so hard to believe that this is not a meteorite, in stead of meteorwrong.I want to thank matt morgan for letting me purchase a piece of PURTARANO.I just got a 219 gram slice.This thing is gorgeous.It looks so much like a stony iron.It looks alot like morristown.Thanks again to matt for letting me have this great looking slice. steve arnold = Steve R.Arnold, Chicago, IL, 60120 I. M. C. A. MEMBER #6728 Illinois Meteorites website url http://stormbringer60120.tripod.com http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/illinoismeteorites/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
RE: Re 2: [meteorite-list] PUTORANA not PURTARANO
Matt and others, Thanx Matt for the informative review on Putorana done by real investigators, unlike myself. If others didn't notice, Matt got some credit for being part of the article/research team. The article is well done and seems to hit the issue right between the eyes. This rock is N O T a meteorite. I'm sure there are many out there who still wish it becomes one someday. And, as the article states and Fly Hill alluded to...Maybe more can be learned about the formation of meteorites from this type of rock?...specifically mesosiderites. My only point when I opened my mouth on this subject is that it just doesn't look like what I know as a meteorite in thin section, whether it be a eucrite or a mesosiderite. Matt's article is a little (OK a lot) more informative than my simple observations. As for Ivan's(finmet) latest sale and convoluted description...see below. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemcategory=3239item=2191274708 And finally, Matt-Matt-Matt...I'm sorry to read that you may have been taken to the cleaners by the master. You need to B E W A R E ! ! ! ! Keeping my guard up, John John: For starters read the article at the bottom of the page here.. http://www.mhmeteorites.com/pubs/news.htm This may help you see why and how things got strange with this rock. Matt Morgan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 7:41 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Steve Arnold, Chicago!!!; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re 2: [meteorite-list] PUTORANA not PURTARANO List members, I'll respond to my own thread by going one step further...recognizing that eucrites and terrestrial basalts are chemically about the same. However, looking at the few eucrites I have, they are much finer grained and less colorful than the Putorana basalt. The plagioclase needles are much larger and more prevalent in the Putorana sample I have when compared to the eucrites I have. Putorana looks something like the terrestrial basalt photo on page 154 of the Cambridge Encylcopedia of Meteorites by Norton. The Putorana is even more colorful and is loaded with twinnig plag needles and moderately sized pheoncrysts of pyroxene and olivine than that basalt picture on 154. Putorana does look like a couple sections I have, but they are terrestrial gabbros...one being a plain old (but beautiful) diabase and the other is a modified(cooked) gabbro called metadiabase. The diabase and Putorana look very much alike in thin section ...minus the metal seen in Putorana. Even my Zagami section, a Mars basalt, looks nothing like Putorana in thin section. See 169 for sample of it. So, can anyone tell us that they have seen a eucrite that looks like Putorana in thin section? Maybe I'll get someone to post some of my pictures on their site to compare. I'll also contact Jeff Rowell for his take on this issue...he has a number of sections including Putorana and several eucrites. John Steve and others, A few months ago I posted a thread to the list that basically said that while the Putorana looks like a mesosiderite...that when I compared it to Vaca Muerta in thin section, they look nothing alike at all. Plain and simple the Putorana looks like the basalt that it has been identified as. My question to others is why did it take so long to figure that out when it seems so obvious to a novice like me...in thin section?. Are there other mesosiderites that look like basalt in thin section? If so, which ones? If not...were the researchers considering it to be a new type? Also noteworthy is that Ivan (finmet) is selling Putorana again, and his description is alluding to it being considered to be extraterrestrial again, because in his/others words...such a rock cannot exist on earth (native iron separated within a rock). Does anyone know what is going on with the research of this material. Is it really being considered to from out of this world again? Putorana sure looks like basalt to me...and it does not like any eucrite or diogentite that I've seen in thin section...which are the known rock parts of mesosiderites. Puzzled again, John Wow what a beautiful piece of earth rock.It is so hard to believe that this is not a meteorite, in stead of meteorwrong.I want to thank matt morgan for letting me purchase a piece of PURTARANO.I just got a 219 gram slice.This thing is gorgeous.It looks so much like a stony iron.It looks alot like morristown.Thanks again to matt for letting me have this great looking slice. steve arnold = Steve R.Arnold, Chicago, IL, 60120 I. M. C. A. MEMBER #6728 Illinois Meteorites website url http://stormbringer60120.tripod.com http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/illinoismeteorites/
[meteorite-list] Billy Martin's dog/cow shooting story
Randy and list members, Very good...Billy Martin told the story that he shot the dog in jest(favor to owner), and Mickey Mantle was the hunting partner who shot the farmer's cow (or was it cows?). They were members of the New York Yankees baseball team for those who are confused by all this...back in the 50's I think. Whether it is true I am not sure. John __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] where did the ZAGAMI come from??
This whole thing seems ridiculous...an approximate weight of 180 to 190 grams...no background to it's history(the piece itself). Who knows, maybe it is a list member trying to be funny...if so, it's a good joke. As for being big, it sure pales in size when we look at the 2350 gr end piece in Bob Haag's latest picture book. Is there a significant Ebay fee for listing something this expensive? It is probably a fishing expedition looking for some ignorant buyer(sucker) with millions and million of $'s to waste. You never know what some fool might do...without the right knowledge. Hey Lebron (James)...did you see that big piece of Mars rock...you ought to buy that for your new crib. What would a collector pay for this thing in today's market?...say $40,000 at $220/g. I'm sure most dealers would want to pay less than that. Maybe at one time it would have gotten 5 to 10 plus times that much. I don't think it would today though...but maybe I'm wrong. John Hi Steve and all, I find his negative feedback more offensive than anything else and yes, why would the owner of such an important piece turn it over for sale to anyone other than the most credible dealer/dealers? Maybe it's because credible dealers explained a more reasonable way to deal with it. Shrugs, Bill Kieskowski Hi again list.Just a quick question.That guy that is auctioning off the $450,000.00 piece of ZAGAMI!I wonder where a corn field guy from nebraska would get one of the most expensive piece's of meteorites from.Because if you look at his ebay store, you will notice that he sells mostly electronics and computer parts.No other meteorites present.Only things that you plug in.VERY, VERY, questionable!Also his auction expires in 2 hours,cst, with still no bids. steve arnold, chicago = Steve R.Arnold, Chicago, IL, 60120 I. M. C. A. MEMBER #6728 Illinois Meteorites website url http://stormbringer60120.tripod.com http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/illinoismeteorites/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: Re-2: [meteorite-list] Denver / 'BL' meteorite
Bernd and others, It is hard to believe someone could confuse the BL (NWA 1685 or whatever) material with some other material. To me, the individuals with its' thick black crust, and beautiful shapes (some close to oriented) with many remaglypts are quite distinguishable. For those who own or have seen the BL material in person...they could probably pick a BL piece out a bunch of NWA's with ease. Fortunate owner of a 28 g slice and 198 gram individual(at a S T E A L) John The brecciated interior for those who have not seen it is a blue/grey color. The only drawback to this material is some of it internally oxidized in places, but otherwise it is one of the nicest stones I have. John I thought a short time ago, the BL's were referred to as NWA 1685. Hi Dave and List, NWA 1685 - this is exactly what the specimens in my collection are referred to as. But a French collector cautioned at the time Dean offered them saying there were seven different meteorites in Dean's lot and that among them were probably some Taouz 002 individuals. Bernd To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: Re-2: [meteorite-list] Denver / 'BL' meteorite
List members, For those who do not know what the BL meteorite discussion is about. You would have to go back about two years ago when Dean went into one of his I can't wait for classification scenarios..he offered list members about 35 to 40 individuals of what he called/numbered BL-1, 2, 3, etc. with pictures. Most were in the range of 100 to 300 grams. I think I bought BL-33 which was 198 g. The total of 7 kg mentioned earlier makes sense for 35 stones at an average of 200 grams each. I think he found a few more later in other batches he received from NWA. I later bought a slice of NWA 1685 from him that looks identical to my individual. I'm not sure what the name BL stood for...Bernd, I believe said it was for BLack, which makes sense for the nice dark crust...or maybe we could say it was for its' blue/grey interior. We'll have to ask Dean...I think he is traveling right now. Now these pieces were snatched up in about a day because he offered them at $1/g. I should have bought 2 or 3 like Bernd. They are really nice. I know Dean regretted selling them at that price. John Bernd and others, It is hard to believe someone could confuse the BL (NWA 1685 or whatever) material with some other material. To me, the individuals with its' thick black crust, and beautiful shapes (some close to oriented) with many remaglypts are quite distinguishable. For those who own or have seen the BL material in person...they could probably pick a BL piece out a bunch of NWA's with ease. Fortunate owner of a 28 g slice and 198 gram individual(at a S T E A L) John The brecciated interior for those who have not seen it is a blue/grey color. The only drawback to this material is some of it internally oxidized in places, but otherwise it is one of the nicest stones I have. John I thought a short time ago, the BL's were referred to as NWA 1685. Hi Dave and List, NWA 1685 - this is exactly what the specimens in my collection are referred to as. But a French collector cautioned at the time Dean offered them saying there were seven different meteorites in Dean's lot and that among them were probably some Taouz 002 individuals. Bernd To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: Re-2: [meteorite-list] CH or CB Chondrite?
David and others, In reading the article on Bencubbenites I have two comments. 1. This is the first time I recall the description of the rounded metal blobs, blebs, nodules as being referred to as metal chondrules. Did anyone else notice this? The statement says something like The metal and silicate chondrules are in some cases as large as 1 centimeter. The metal balls are now called metal chondrules?...makes sense to me...but then again I'm easy. 2. If all these variations on CB's and CH's are actually part of the CR clan, then why don't we start with calling them CR's, and then give them a suffix of some kind to differentiate them CRL(low metal), CRB-1 and CRB-2, CRH(high metal), etc.. Designations of CBa b, CH, CR, and who knows what next...all under one umbrella(CR clan) does not make sense to this simpleton. Kinda like what we are heading for with olivine diogenites. I know tradition, known name, etc. Change before it is too late!!! Thanx for reading, John Hello list, Here is the link to the paper by Weisberg, Prinz, Clayton, Mayeda, Sugiura, Zashu, and Ebihara in which they propose the designation of the CB grouplet. I don't have a clue how these meteoritical scientists do such awesome work but I have the highest respect for what they present and how they present it. I have read other papers by Michael Weisberg and the others that are equally amazing and I for one are compelled to accept their reasoning - based on their reputations if not on my imperfect understanding of their paper... at least until something better comes along. Enjoy this work: http://adsbit.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=2001M%26PS...36.. 401W David __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Serious question?
Hello all, Here is my simple, romantic notion of Mars and its red-orange/yellow-brown rocks. Living here in Pennsylvania and being close to some very nice Pre-Cambrian bedrock(mafic and ultamafic) that includes metadiabase gabbro, olivine-rich gabbro, dunite-like olivine veins, and mica-rich gabbro/peridotite...I've always had the idea that the weathered yellow-brown to orangish brown outer skins I've seen on these iron-rich rocks has the same look we've seen from the pictures taken by the rovers on Mars. Most of the rocks we see in those pictures on Mars are possibly weathered exteriors of basalts, dunites and gabbros/peridotites. However those same pictures do have a dusty look to them. I'm sure it is not that simple, but from an appearance standpoint we have rocks that develop that same look here on earth...as in colors. John At 11:00 PM 9/16/2003 +, you wrote: The concept of a red planet as the result of meteorite bombardment is absurd. Maybe not, if you have the right kind of planet, namely one with an atmosphere and appropriate oxidizing compounds. Albert Yen and colleagues wrote a paper about this a bit in _Science_ a few years back. I don't have the paper at hand, but I think it was sometime around September 2000. Yen suggested a super-oxide process to explain present day soil rusting on Mars with ultraviolet light the catalyst. Since this process is very slow, even by geological time scales, many planetologists still believe most of the red color probably dates back to a time when Mars was wetter. More recently (see http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns4120) Yen has proposed that meteorites form the main source for the red soil. He exposed metallic iron in a specially created environment matching the atmospheric composition and temperature of Mars. Yen found that red oxides began to form within a week -- in other words, orders of magnitude more quickly than previously assumed. So there may be something to this idea after all. Properly equipped Martian landers will probably be able to shed more light on this subject. If Yen is right, the Martian soil should show an overabundance of nickel, indicating a probable meteoric origin. The Mars Pathfinder mission has already suggested that the soil contains more magnesium and iron than rocks on the surface. As you and others have pointed out, water and oxygen are not necessary for oxidization. We have plenty of areas on earth that are pretty bleak but we all know about geological time as opposed to our own inabilaty to comprehend it in a real sense and the amazing affects of weather and all the rest. My only point was that given the fact that iron can turn into red stuff as the result of a variety of reactions, why isn't the earth's moon very very red? The type of vapor deposition process which weathers the lunar surface may initially lead to reddening, but later leads to darkening. See the article by Bruce Hapke in the Journal of Geophysical Research, vol. 106, pp. 10039-10073. There is also evidence of reddening on some smaller airless bodies as a result of space weathering.This has important consequences for determining the parent bodies of meteorites. Mars has a violent atmosphere that should mix all that meteoric debris up? This is only a question as a student might ask. I'm not trying to engage in a debate. Actually such atmospheric activity supports Yen's idea. The soil on Mars is constantly being mixed up, and so the darkening characteristic of space weathering on airless bodies doesn't take place. -- Philip R. Pib Burns [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pibburns.com/ __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: Re-2: [meteorite-list] CH or CB Chondrite?
Jeff, Thanx for keeping me and I'm sure many others straight on these issues. We as a group are too loose about meteoritic nomenclature, and I think many(non- scientists especially) out there who publish work need to pay attention to these and other common practices in naming. Much of my confusion is self generated, but I see discrepancies all the time that adds to it. A little bit smarter now, John At 11:43 PM 9/16/2003 +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeff, Thank you for the explanation and clarification that clans do not necessarily tie two groups together...though they are thought to be related due to similarities. So it goes something like this... (with a few questions at the bottom). Class: Carbonaceous Groups: CB3a, CB3b, CH, CR2 (CR clan) CV3, CK3-5 (CV-CK clan) CM2, CO3(CM-CO clan) CI I'm not sure what the consensus on C chondrite clans would be, or even if there is one. This is a reasonable starting point, although the numbers (pet types) don't belong here (see below), and there should only be one CB group (maybe). Note 2: I've seen CH called CH2...is that not the case as of yet??? petrologic type 2 means that the meteorite is heavily aqueously altered, with abundant hydrated minerals. CH chondrites are not, although they contain hydrated clasts of matrix-like material. They have to be called type 3. Note 3: I've seen Classes called Groups in one textbook. I don't doubt it. What I have been saying is what I consider to be common usage, but people use all kinds of terms for these things, sometimes out of carelessness, and sometimes out of genuine differences of opinion. Note 4: Are subgroups appropriately called a class or should they be a type (ie: Class OC, Group H, class or type H3.8 ???) Some texts call H3.8 a class...which makes it even more confusing! Should it be a type? There are only a few subgroups in the literature. The CB chondrite group has the subgroups you mention, although not everybody accepts these. There are two well-accepted subgroups of CV (oxidized and reduced), and the former is divided by some people into two subsubgroups. One researcher has proposed dividing the E chondrites into some subgroups too. Subgroups are not classes or types, they are just subgroups, i.e. subdivisions of accepted groups. In general, they are refinements to the classification scheme, and in many cases may represent different processing on the parent asteroid from similar starting material. H is a chemical group name. Chemistry is what chondrite groups are all about. The 3.8 refers to the petrologic type, which for values in the 3-6 range is synonymous with metamorphic grade (1 and 2 mean something totally unrelated!). This number has nothing to do with meteorite classification; it just tells you something very important about what happened to this particular chunk of rock on the parent asteroid. This bit of information is traditionally considered important enough that it gets reported alongside the group name. From time to time, researchers have tried to promote other tidbits of info to go next to the group name, like shock stage, weathering grade, a bunch of greek letters meaning various things, all kinds of subscripts and superscripts, and who knows what else. Most of this has not stuck except for the petrologic type. Anyway, your example would come out as class OC, group H, petrologic type 3.8. No yes? jeff Thanks again Jeff, John D. At 10:30 PM 9/15/2003, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2. If all these variations on CB's and CH's are actually part of the CR clan, then why don't we start with calling them CR's, and then give them a suffix of some kind to differentiate them CRL(low metal), CRB-1 and CRB-2, CRH(high metal), etc.. Designations of CBa b, CH, CR, and who knows what next...all under one umbrella(CR clan) does not make sense to this simpleton. Kinda like what we are heading for with olivine diogenites. I know tradition, known name, etc. Change before it is too late!!! When we say clan we mean a number of meteorite groups that are related, not closely enough to be a single group, but by sharing enough properties that it seems likely they formed in a similar way or in a similar time or place (it's all very vague). It's a very loose term meant to convey a relationship. Bencubbin and Renazzo look nothing like each other, but share certain chemical and isotopic properties than lead researchers to place them in the same clan.Nobody would or should ever put these in the same group. Groups, on the other hand, refer to groups of meteorites that are alike in most of their primary properties (chemistry, texture, isotope systematics), and which probably formed together in one parent body. If you show an expert two members of the
[meteorite-list] Hurricane Isabel
Hello All, The overall consensus here on the US east coast is that we were lucky not to get hit worse by this monster storm...Isabel. For those in it's path the damage and difficulties are bad enough. Billions of dollars in damage and millions have been without power...and many still are. Flooding from the storm surge/push onto land was extensive. Cities like Baltimore along the coast had areas that were/are under several feet of water. Geoff Cintron alluded to how bad the North Carolina/Virginia coastal areas got whacked. John Sinclair is probably out there cleaning up...if, he has even gotten back to his home yet. Areas in South Jersey, Southeast Pennsylvania, Delaware and Maryland were ravaged with 50 to 80 miles an hour winds knocking down trees (and power lines) by the thousands. The speed of this fasting moving storm saved us all from tremendous rains and extensive periods of winds. Even my area here in PA..far from the storm's center got lots of wind Thursday night...knocking power out for 1/2 day and taking down several trees and large branches in the neighborhood. Yes, we were lucky it was not worse...but believe me, it was bad enough. I cannot imagine what a direct hit of a category 4 or 5 would do to the Mid- Atlantic or Northeast areas with all the people and development we have. Even worse for us and others would be the tsunami from a large asteroidal hit in the (Atlantic) ocean. Count your blessings every day, John __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: Re-2: [meteorite-list] Kentucky?
Bernd, Thanx Bernd...I should have looked first. According to the attached site there are 3 impact locations in Kentucky. http://www.uky.edu/KGS/education/meteorites.html John Lots of limestone from a geology standpoint...also my good friend John Curchin gave me a wonderful shattercone that came from Kentucky. I forget what the name of the impact structure that is there Middlesburg or Middlesboro maybe? Yes, it's Middlesboro - it has a diameter of about 6 km with a central uplift and shattercones. Congratulations on your job offer...hope all goes well if you decide to go. Congrats and good look if you go! Bernd To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Middlesboro Built In Meteor Crater, Geologists Say; Town Hopes To Cash In
Thanx Ron as always...well, there you go Tom...a meteoritic impact on Kentucky living. Must be a sign... John http://www.courier-journal.com/localnews/2003/09/20ky/met-5-crater0920-6646.html Middlesboro built in meteor crater, geologists say; town hopes to cash in By ROGER ALFORD Associated Press September 20, 2003 MIDDLESBORO, Ky. - An Eastern Kentucky town that has been struggling through economic decline is hoping that an out-of-this-world attraction can help turn things around. State geologists have concluded that Middlesboro was built in a meteor crater, and local officials are confident that the discovery will pay huge dividends in tourism dollars. William M. Andrews Jr., a geologist with the Kentucky Geological Survey, said erosion and vegetation have hidden most signs of the meteor's impact. Enough evidence remains, however, to support the conclusion, he said. You have the round shape, shattered rock in the middle and deformed rocks around the sides that have been bent, folded or shoved, Andrews said. That's pretty strong evidence that it was a meteor impact crater. It's enough to excite local tourism officials, who are hoping people will come from across the nation to visit the town. They're now promoting Middlesboro as the only town in America built inside a meteor crater. We're trying to get the word out, said Judy Barton, director of the Bell County Tourism Commission. This is just another jewel in our crown. Middlesboro, historically dependent on the mining industry, has been in decline for decades, suffering alongside coal operators. Mines have shut down, shops have closed and workers have hit unemployment lines. With no upturn in sight, local leaders have been trying to bolster the tourism economy. Barton said more than a million people already come to Middlesboro each year to visit Cumberland Gap National Historic Park, which is home of the famed mountain pass through which settlers traveled into the nation's midsection in the late 1700s. Tourists can walk the footsteps of the famous frontiersman Daniel Boone, who led the way through Cumberland Gap for a flood of settlers to come into Kentucky and beyond. Nearby is the Lost Squadron Museum, home to a World War II fighter plane that spend a half century encapsulated in the icy heart of a glacier. Some 20,000 people came to Middlesboro last year to see the P-38 Lightning fly for the first time since being pulled piece by piece from beneath 268 feet of ice and snow in Greenland. The plane was among six fighters and two bombers forced to crash-land during foul weather on July 15, 1942. The crews were rescued from the glacier, but the warplanes were left behind to be slowly buried by snow and ice. A local restaurateur spent some $3 million to recover and rebuild the plane. Barton said those two attractions keep Middlesboro-area hotels and restaurants busy. When word spreads that people have the opportunity to see an actual meteor crater, Barton believes tourism may skyrocket. In fact, more than 60 geologists arrived in town Thursday to survey the crater and to be on hand yesterday when the Kentucky Society of Professional Geologists declared the city a distinguished geological site. Andrews said geologists who have visited Middlesboro are confident that the valley is a crater. Middlesboro is in this strangely round valley in the middle of Appalachia, he said. You don't get round valleys here. It's not normal. While the shape of the valley initially drew the interest of geologists, they soon found stronger evidence. Andrews said rocks were found near the center of the basin in 1966 that were so shattered that something out of this world had to have occurred. The theory is that a meteor more than 1,500 feet in diameter struck the earth here some 300million years ago, creating the crater four miles in diameter. The crater is among those noted by the Planetary and Space Science Centre at the University of New Brunswick, which has compiled a list of all known meteor craters in the world. In Middlesboro, Andrews said, huge sections of rock have been flipped upside down or bent into odd positions, suggesting a powerful impact. Tom Shattuck, who operates Wilderness Road Tours in Middlesboro, said he routinely takes visitors up a mountainside in the national park to an overlook where they can get a bird's eye view of the crater. That, Shattuck said, is an easy way to convince doubters that a meteorite gets credit for forming the valley. Of course, he said, standing in the middle of town and looking up at the bowl-shaped mountains may be just as convincing. It's really something to see, he said. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite from Jupiter
Al, Would that be Neptune Mountains from Antarctica? An Og IAB found in 1964. Nice try. Watch out or Jim Strope will offering something from Uranus again. John...the Park Forest meteorite from Venus guy (April Fool's to those who forgot or were not around...see 4/1/03 for archives) Hi John and all, I'll trade her my specimen from Neptune (yes, I do have a sample from Neptune ;-) for an equal amount of weight of her specimen from Jupiter. Waiting for someone to bite on this. --AL __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] sellers of meteorites on eBay
Yes, David is a serious collector who sells material on occasion under the name of esquel on ebay. I do not know him personally but he does have friends on the list I believe. John Dear list members; Does anyone know or has anyone had any dealings with David and Chris Gregory of Ontario Canada. They had a meteorite auction on eBay the first of Sept. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] New NWA's just keep coming!!
List members, I know some of you guys/gals are not big NWA fans, but it is amazing to see the awesome specimens that are still coming out of Africa. For instance, Mike Farmer's new Howardite, NWA 1942 is truly an awesome specimen. I received a small slice this week and it looks like an achondrite goulash...meat, potatoes, all kinds of veggies in a nice sauce. What a mish-mash(mixture) of meteorite parts and pieces!! As Mike said in his description...it maybe one of, if not the nicest/coolest Howardite around. I only had one other sample of a Howardite before this one...I'm glad I waited. The new NWA eucrites, urelites, C's, diogenites, mesosiderites, and other rarities just keep coming. I'm sure new Lunars and SNC's are not far behind. These numbered rocks certainly don't have the history or the romance of the old standby's or new falls, but from a type collector's standpoint...they are just stunning. A problem we collectors have is that we can only buy so much...leaving the majority of NWA numbers to other collectors. Anymore, I have to be very picky because the numbers and options are just too much for me. I don't need everyone of the eucrites, etc. My apologies if I've offended or irritated anyone including the more classical collectors, or those who have a problem with the NWA situation as a whole...this is just a simple, but overwhelmed collector's view on some great looking rare material. Thanx for reading, John __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Hits House In Louisiana
Randy and others, Is it a competition to get to a fall first?...you bet it is!!!...while these guys are enthusiastic about meteorites...they are also full-time businessmen selling falls and finds. Competition (friendly?) to get there first is their business. The lesson to learn here is to get to the scene as fast as you can without delay...even if the report might be bogus. Even if it has the slightest legiticamy...go, right away and very fast because those planes circling up above might have meteorite recovery teams (ie:vultures) on board. No offense to Mike and Adam...just a term to accent my point. (Congrats Mike on your trip) Also, another lesson learned by me from PF...don't announce it to the LIST if it is in your area and you might want to be one of the first to arrive for recovery. If you do that...well then chaos and high pricing will certainly abound. Keep a low profile, no chatter to the list, and go collecting/buying on your own. As for high pricing of US falls...well I believe that will be the norm for now on...I stated that very thing in a thread after PF too. Thoughts from a list observer, John PS Still waiting for a decent PA fall that doesn't end up in the abyss of the wet forests/mountains-hills that cover this state. What arrogance? Just saying that I have already been there and adding some lighthearted humor? Is that a problem or sour grapes? Mike Farmer I will post more information on this meteorite when I get a chance, just a little bit busy here right now. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Hits House In Louisiana Gee...didn't know there was a contest going on. The arrogance just ooozes forth... Randy in N.O. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] About the swedish fossile-meteorites (from the news-group archives 1997)
What rumor? We are serious about such things. It is more likely this type of voracious mollusk swallowed the meteoroid by mistake, and then ended up with a blockage in its' bowel that just wouldn't clear. Most of the bulky mollusk in those days probably could take a direct impact hit...almost like water off its' back you might say. I like the swallowing theory a little more. Feeling the same pain on occasion, John Hi, Omigod! The Nakhla Mollusk! Did anyone actually see this Mollusk being struck by the meteorite? Or is this merely a hysterical rumor being spread far and wide in the Mollusk community? Sterling K. Webb Pekka Savolainen wrote: If the odds were not bent enough, it appears that the meteorite hit an Ordovician mollusk which is fossilized in conjunction with the meteorite! (Spratt and Stephens, 1992, p.53) __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] what is selling on my ebay page.
GOOD GRIEF! Looks like the famous COLUMBUS MAIN MASS that we all heard about over and over again has fallen out of favour. But, then again it is a new month. Nevermind... JD Hi list just want to give everyone one notice that I have some real great pieces on ebay for auction, like:columbus main mass, 4 tungsten mt.nevada pieces,a 2.5 kilo campo,4.2 gram piece of millibbilliee,dhofar 724 main mass, nwa 660 main mass,66 gram slice of pampa (a), 399 gram slice of nwa 869, and lots more.I added 5 new ones today.So look at your liesure and bid often.And I want to thank all people who bid on my first go around of auctions. steve arnold, chicago = Steve R.Arnold, Chicago, IL, 60120 I. M. C. A. MEMBER #6728 Illinois Meteorites website url http://stormbringer60120.tripod.com http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/illinoismeteorites/ __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Re: Images of UK contrail (not fireball)
Hello all, I have a simple question that I would ask the boy and his friends. Was this so-called fireball moving like a meteor or was it a stationary phenomenena like a contrail with the sun lighting it? His honest answer would clear up the whole thing...I'd think. John I'm leaning toward backlit aircraft contrail for three reasons -- the first of which has been mentioned, but the other two have not I fully agree with everything what Rob writes. Indeed, it was the long, narrow, only very slightly S-curved aspect of the trail on the second picture that made me remove all doubt that this is a contrail, as Neil Bone surmissed. And be honest, it really looks like that, except for the odd glow at the end, for which however there are perfectly liable explanations. And please: the glowing cloud at the end of the trail really does NOT look like a meteoric fireball. I've seen many meteoric fireballs myself, so I am quite sure of that. The second point, as well articulated by Rob Matson is that this phenomena was not widely (that is: nation wide) reported, as it should be would it be a meteoric fireball. The second picture was taken from a place not too far away from the first. The whole thing is in essence local. So I don't think there's a meteorite gone to the bottom of the ocean. - Marco -- Marco Langbroek Leiden, the Netherlands 52.15896 N, 4.48884 E (WGS 84) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.wanadoo.nl/marco.langbroek -- __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] New Orleans fall PHOTOS
Mike, Asia...is that near Morrocco? It isn't? :o (ohhh) Great stuff from Louisiana. I have a few questions. Any idea what the name of this one might be? New Orleans or Picayune? What's with the rusty crust...was all this material in the scum water for a day or so? Also, the the smaller of the two big masses shown has a greenish tint to the crust...is that accurate and have you ever seen a crust like that? A fragile hammerstone like this must have broken up into a lot of pieces when it hit the house. Was 20kg really collected by the owner? Is the 891g piece the main mass? Let's see...how much is it worth. At 20kg...say $20K, $100K, $200k or more? It sure looks like a nice, but plain looking meteorite. The historical Bjurbole doesn't get more than $10/g. I wouldn't pay too much for it, but then again I can't afford a lot of it anyway. Good luck in the land of the Tigers. Take some pictures of the incinerated hut. Watch your back Mike...we need you man. On the way, or way back think about stopping in Italy for some vino with your bud. :) Take care and be safe please...we all look forward to your report, John PS I wonder if anyone else has gone/is going too...for the competition? Did anyone even see this? Is there going to be any discussion about our newest meteorite? Or is no one interested. Mike Farmer - Original Message - From: Michael Farmer To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 11:21 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] New Orleans fall PHOTOS Anyone who wants to see the New Orleans fall, go to my website, and click Meteorite Adventures. You will see the link there, otherwise click here. http://www.meteoriteguy.com/Neworleanasfall.htm Anyone who wants a great deal, find something on my website, and I'll make great discounts. But do it by tomorrow, as on Saturday I will be in ASIA. Can anyone guess where?? __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Images of Wales meteor (no boring aeroplane)
Bjorn, I respect your quest for knowledge and the truth...and the university environment has all the time in the world to debate such things. I, on the other hand am a serious mechanical consulting engineer who is paid a lot of money to solve difficult problems in a short time. Most often with a few questions and personal investigation the issue/problem and answer becomes evident to me. Other times more study and analysis is needed to get that answer. I tell my clients my answer when it is clear to me. That is the case with this so-called bolide...the answer seems too simple to me. This super gigantic explosion of a streaking rock had no witnesses, no noise, and no report of movement or dynamics as Rob suggested. It can't be a meteor from my perspective. Plain and simple, with little time to figure it out. My bill for this one would be cheaper than normal. I hope I'm wrong...but the lack of serious evidence makes the answer easy. Have fun with the debate, John Hello Pekka List, I truly doubt yor last statement, Pekka. And the kind of attitude you are showing now is neither scientific nor 'truth-seeking' it's more like submissiveness, I'm afraid. I have spent 10 years in an university environment. It's facts and arguments that builds knowledge and science, not backtapping. I'm also seeing Marco and Mr. Bone's conclusion as a kind of fatigue with the bolide chasing situation, in fact. It's I guess it's natural for them in their position to concentrate on the obvious falls and scrap the not so. But when this leads to seemingly gross errors, including accusing absolutely innocent people of fraud, I react strongly. Regards, Bjørn Sørheim At 00:57 05.10.03 +0300, you wrote: Bjørn Sørheim wrote: Hello Marco List, I wonder what you really are doing here, Marco? Is this what you would call science or 'seeking the truth'? Are you trying to find the best explanation, or is it something else? Well, as far as I know, Marco is one of the pioners with the bolides, and the dutch sky-cam network is one of the best in the world, so I highly apreciate his opinions in these cases. We had a bolide-case in Finland last February, and the knowledge and experience of Marco was a great help. In fact I supppose, Marco has seen more pics of bolidies than we all others on the list together. take care, pekka s __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NWA is Far Better Than Antarctica
Adam and others, Not to take sides on this issue...I've always been curious why the scientific community gets so caught up with the lack of information on the location of the Sahara finds when the pristine and pure Antarctica finds are only located relative to the winds and shifting ice...having nothing to do with where they landed. I would think that making pairings of Antarctica finds is as difficult, or even more than the desert finds. I guess locations do provide patterns of such finds and the possibly the mechanics that congregate them, but nothing more. In the desert we certainly would have less numbers and more pairings if the finds were kept together and the research was completed. Another point is that the Antarctica finds are certainly less handled by man...the great contaminator. Puzzled as usual, John __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Today's meteorite fall anniversary
Gregory, Being a big baseball fan...I was parked about 4 feet from the TV when it all occurred. My most vivid memory was the first scene of the sandwiched highway in Oakland which horrified me in an instance...yet to this day I'll never know why the announcer describing the scene we were looking at that moment said the road looked a bit shaken up, but no major damage was evident. They could not tell the two roads had been stacked on top of each other. A stunning sight. I won't forget it, but I'm sure I/we didn't have the response you experienced. Thanx for sharing, John __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Question about NWA 1827 pairing
Bernhard and others, Owning a piece of 1827, and of one similar (still not sure of it's number), the report I have on 1827 from my supplier is that is was classified as a diogenite rich mesosiderite (and not a metal-rich diogenite...no such thing). And for those who do not own a piece of it...it is a beauty. One piece was cut and sent without a polish, and the other one is polished. Both are awesome. I believe that 1879 will also be paired with it. I know Adam has some knowledge of this possiblity, but the analysis may not be done yet. There may be other numbers involved also...not sure. Hope that helps, John __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NEW Eucrite, absolutely the strangest ever seen!]
Hello all, This post is meant for fellow neophyte geologists like myself (ie. novice). The term gabbroic has to do with a suite of rocks that happens to include gabbro in its' grouping. A grouping/layering of rocks with similar minerals that reacted out of the magam, generally in the Bowen Series pattern...with many variations...too, too many to list. Other names come from these deeply formed rocks including pyroxenite, peridotite(deeper) and dunite(deepest). As others have said they are plutontic (intrusive) rock...which makes them deep formers, and not volcanic (extrusive) which are formed on/near the surface. The close cousins from the volcanic rocks are the different basalts. Below is a site that generalizes the forming of different igneous rocks. http://www.tulane.edu/~sanelson/geol111/igneous.htm I have an extensive collection of diorite and gabbroic rocks from PA that have many looks to it. The olivine gabbro that some of you have from me has a close resemblance (appearance) to some of the shergottite specimens out there. From a rock collector's standpoint...gabbro and gabbroic rocks are very cool (slowly for that matter). John Yes Mark's definition more closely defines a conglomerate and, more distantly, a breccia. A Gabbro is a type rock, usually with large visible crystals(indicating a slow cooling), plutonic in origin and, contains feldspar and pyroxenes (--if I remember correctly. Let me find my rock-types book(vs mineral book)to make sure) I think to be a gabbro it must contain olivne form within the pyroxenes but can't say for certain. Bowen where are you?(as in Bowen's Reaction Series) Elton N Lehrman wrote: Mark others, This is totally absurd. Look up gabbro if you can spell it. Then write. Norm (an earth geologist that doesn't make up new definitions---) - Original Message - *From:* Mark Ferguson mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* tett mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Cc:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Saturday, October 18, 2003 7:49 PM *Subject:* Re: [meteorite-list] NEW Eucrite, absolutely the strangest ever seen! Hi Tett and list A gabro is a collection of individual rocks (they don't have to be the same kind of rock either) welded or held together by some cemmenting substance. Here on earth, the cemment can be cristobalite, opal, limestone, stiltstone, and many other items. A cemment with rock in it is a manmade gabro. So, gabroic infers that it is like a gabro. Mark __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Anomalous and Ungrouped Ordinary Chondrites
Hello all, I've always been intrigued but puzzled about the classification of a few ordinary chondrites into the black hole of assigned classification names...ungrouped and/or anomalous. Some are specified with petrologic assignments and others without. Ebay on occasion offers us Hah 180 that is classified as an anomalous 3.5 ordinary chondrite and Dhofar 535 that is classified as ungrouped, and without a petrologic designation in its' description. According to David's site below...Hah 180 is similar to Deakin 001. And there maybe others I am not thinking of. Oxygen isotopes and weathering seem to be some of the key factors...and as stated on David's site they may come from a proximity close to where enstatite chondrites were formed, and in my opinion their appearance makes them at least look like some of the EL3's out there. Does anyone know what the latest theory is for these and will they one day get an official LL3 to 3.5 anomalous label which would finally give them a home? Seems to me to call them anything else puts them/keeps them in classification limbo. http://www.geocities.com/dgweir/HAH180.HTM Just curious, John __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: AW: [meteorite-list] Anomalous and Ungrouped Ordinary Chondrites
Norbert, Makes sense to me...it looks like some consistency is in order here. I wonder how many of these does Bernd have in an ungrouped listing, or has he gone ahead and grouped them in the LL's, etc. Are you out there Bernd??? What say? Do we have a good handle on which ones are ungrouped and related? How many samples does it take to create a new group? Is it when there is consistency in a few...if so, who would then come up with such a group? I know we have been down similar paths with the olivine diogenite naming and the like, but this part of classifications and group naming still seems very loose to me. John Hi John, and list, As to the ungrouped HaH 180, and Deakin 001, it has been suggested that both represent samples of a new and previously unsampled parent body. If that holds to be true, they will never get a LL or L classification. Ungrouped just means that a sample can't be assigned to any of the established groups, and that means also that they do most probably represent a unique parent body. Now, if we find three more meteorites like HaH 180, or Deakin 001, scientists will most likely create a new group, and then these samples won't be ungrouped, any longer. The term anomalous is used for meteorites that actually can be assigned to an existing group, but that differ in some aspects from the other known members of that group. Thus, HaH 180 isn't anomalous, it's simply ungrouped. Short: an ungrouped chondrite most probably stems from an asteroid that hasn't been sampled so far. An anomalous LL, for example, is most probably from the LL parent body/asteroid, but it differs from the other LL members in some respect. The petrologic grades have nothing to do with that, and of course an ungrouped chondrite can be a 3.5, or a plain 6. Hope this helps ;-) Best, Norbert A puzzled John wrote: Hello all, I've always been intrigued but puzzled about the classification of a few ordinary chondrites into the black hole of assigned classification names...ungrouped and/or anomalous. Some are specified with petrologic assignments and others without. Ebay on occasion offers us Hah 180 that is classified as an anomalous 3.5 ordinary chondrite and Dhofar 535 that is classified as ungrouped, and without a petrologic designation in its' description. According to David's site below...Hah 180 is similar to Deakin 001. And there maybe others I am not thinking of. Oxygen isotopes and weathering seem to be some of the key factors... and as stated on David's site they may come from a proximity close to where enstatite chondrites were formed, and in my opinion their appearance makes them at least look like some of the EL3's out there. Does anyone know what the latest theory is for these and will they one day get an official LL3 to 3.5 anomalous label which would finally give them a home? Seems to me to call them anything else puts them/keeps them in classification limbo. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: AW: [meteorite-list] Anomalous and Ungrouped Ordinary Chondrites
Norbert, I didn't read your comment very closely. It looks like you are saying it takes 5 samples to make a group. Where does that criteria come from? I know you are involved with the Society...so maybe there are known guidelines after all. thanx in advance. John Hi John, and list, As to the ungrouped HaH 180, and Deakin 001, it has been suggested that both represent samples of a new and previously unsampled parent body. If that holds to be true, they will never get a LL or L classification. Ungrouped just means that a sample can't be assigned to any of the established groups, and that means also that they do most probably represent a unique parent body. Now, if we find three more meteorites like HaH 180, or Deakin 001, scientists will most likely create a new group, and then these samples won't be ungrouped, any longer. The term anomalous is used for meteorites that actually can be assigned to an existing group, but that differ in some aspects from the other known members of that group. Thus, HaH 180 isn't anomalous, it's simply ungrouped. Short: an ungrouped chondrite most probably stems from an asteroid that hasn't been sampled so far. An anomalous LL, for example, is most probably from the LL parent body/asteroid, but it differs from the other LL members in some respect. The petrologic grades have nothing to do with that, and of course an ungrouped chondrite can be a 3.5, or a plain 6. Hope this helps ;-) Best, Norbert A puzzled John wrote: Hello all, I've always been intrigued but puzzled about the classification of a few ordinary chondrites into the black hole of assigned classification names...ungrouped and/or anomalous. Some are specified with petrologic assignments and others without. Ebay on occasion offers us Hah 180 that is classified as an anomalous 3.5 ordinary chondrite and Dhofar 535 that is classified as ungrouped, and without a petrologic designation in its' description. According to David's site below...Hah 180 is similar to Deakin 001. And there maybe others I am not thinking of. Oxygen isotopes and weathering seem to be some of the key factors... and as stated on David's site they may come from a proximity close to where enstatite chondrites were formed, and in my opinion their appearance makes them at least look like some of the EL3's out there. Does anyone know what the latest theory is for these and will they one day get an official LL3 to 3.5 anomalous label which would finally give them a home? Seems to me to call them anything else puts them/keeps them in classification limbo. __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Collecting Habits
Walter, Elton, Martin and others: Great threads are often difficult to maintain momentum with each additional post, let alone improve on, so I enter this message with trepidation. I began collecting about 4 to 5 years ago, not exactly sure when. My first purchases were from Mike Farmer buying 3 individuals: an Allende at about $10/g, Gao at $4/g, and Sikhote Alin at $3/g...with Mike throwing in a small Henbury for free since it was first time...a virgin collector! I was the first guy I knew to actually own rocks from space. I had studied meteorites and their pricing for about a year on the internet before hand...led into it by finding a number of very nice meteorwrongs during some rockhounding times at lunch. Both M.Casper and B. Haag looked at them...and the experiences of dealing with them were at two ends of the spectrum. Michael worked with me but in the end had little patience for my questions/issues, while Bob made a personal phone call to me at work to tell me what I had (old slag), but encouraged his new amigo to go out and look for meteorites, and to become a collector of these special rocks. That one call put me over the edge...and quite frankly I knew very little about the Meteorite Man at that time. I have never spoken to him since, but one day I hope to thank him for his encouragement. We should all be such ambassadors...I really was touched by his short message of enthusiasm for meteorites. So a year later or less I was an owner of a few. Once I started collecting it didn't take long for me to recognize that the Morrocan meteorites were starting to make an impact. I was not a list member but read a view posts on occasion about how these desert rocks were junk and going to ruin everything. I started to buy them anyway from Ebay, and from others including our own Ed Moore from Maine. Then the rush of Ebay beauties came from all over, and in particular I focused my buying on the new guy on the block...Eduardo, who bought most of Casper's material. Eduardo can tell you I have a number of the pieces he put on Ebay early in his selling...now those were some good old days for me. Since then pricing has dropped dramatically for many name falls/finds like Gao, SA, and Allende, and the onslaught of type specimens made it convenient for me to become a type collector, with most being micromounts including many duplicates that I will one day pair down. What I noticed in the last two years or so is that I'm buying a lot less specimens, but my price per purchase has gone up significantly. I'm buying bigger, better and rarer stuff, which I think is the normal trend from what I understand. I'm still into types and visually appealing pieces...though I have yet to find a real niche. I have stones for the most part because the east coast is rough on the irons and pallasites. I have yet to get the history bug, or to have to have the ones with stories as being must buys...that day may yet to come. Hammerstones, etc. I'm proud of my collection and have shared it with several classrooms at my boys schools. I hope to do more in that realm. My dreams and wonderings along Walter's line of thought is What do these different types look like in space, before they are ripped apart and scorched by our atmosphere, followed by the weathering affects on the ground. I believe they are very pure looking out in space with colors of black, and white, yellowish tan, mottled, a painted look for some breccias, shiny (if lighted) metal-steel looking, etcI think we would be surprised by the range of colors and looks! Maybe a NASA or private mission in our lifetime will be to go out and grab a few for study. Now that would be cool. I'm waiting for that day!! Until then... Thanx for reading one guy's story/dream, John Hi Martin and List, I would like to hear more of what you imagine took place before the formal discovery As happens all too often these days, I put my little one to bed last night and fell asleep before she did. Looks like no more late night ebay sniping for me (he, he :-) Anyway, back to meteorites. After having run the gamut of everything from one specimen of every find/fall to I quit this hobby I think I have settled on a few collecting specialties (1) micromounts of rare and common material (2) micromounts from Georgia (the State, that is) and moderate sized pieces that are aesthetically pleasing to me (mostly the old guard ala Elton's post). In keeping with all the above, I really like just plain old common chondrites and octahedrites, particularly ones with stories like Beaver, Valera, Plainview, Claxton, Canyon Diablo, Park Forest, etc. I have come to appreciate the human story side to meteorites after I came to the realization that (1) I would have to learn the science of meteoritics on my own and (2) sometimes that is boring and tedious and I hate tedium. So, back to your original question... Martin (and anyone else
Re: [meteorite-list] AW: New Mars Meteorite Found In Morocco (NWA 1950)
David, Norbert and others: Statement of fact: I am a novice and I don't know exactly what I'm talking about it. Comment: With that said I find this whole subject of naming martian rocks to be somewhat difficult to sort out, or understand completely. Here goes... 1. Chassignites - very, very rare martian meteorite that is almost entirely composed of iron rich olivine, with a small amount of chromite, orthopyroxene, feldpars, and a tiny bit of hornblende. This rock is the equivalent of Dunite here on earth. On the gabroic triangle figure/chart, Dunite would be at the bottom center below the Peridotites that are split into Wehrlite(clinopyroxene based), Lherzolite(a residual melt/mixture of Wehrlite and Harzburgite), and Harzburgite(orthopyroxene based). 2. Nakhlites - a rare, but becoming less rare martian meteorite that is mostly made up of augite clinopyroxene, and has iron rich olivine, and small amounts of feldspars and other clinopyroxenes. This rock is the equivalent to earthly clinopyroxenite and olivine clinopyroxenite which both can be classified as a type of gabbro on earth. 3. Shergottites - a more typical martian meteorite that is mostly made up of clinopyroxene, and has several varieties based on the amount of olivine and feldspars to go along with the clinopyroxene. Now these are usually called basalts because of the mineral makeup that is similar for extrusive (volcanic) basalt and intrusive (dike/sill magma) basalt here on earth which is also know as gabbro. 4. Orthopyroxenite - ALH 84001 is not even close to these others from a mineral standpoint and it stands alone in the martian category. On earth it is also called an orthopyroxenite which is also known as a norite instead of a gabbro or basalt. A martian or earthly Lherzolite is really not a basalt/gabbro (shergottite), but a mixture or melt of a clinopyroxenite (Nakhlite) and an orthopyroxenite (ALH 84001). And depending on the level of one pyroxene versus another it is closer to one or the other. As Norbert suggested it must have more clinopyroxene than orthopyroxene, so that is why he said it is closer to a Nakhlite. Is anyone confused yet??? Bottom line is that I agree that NWA 1950 maybe misrepresented by calling it a shergottite...or the boundaries for being a shergottite are a lot broader than the other categories. Does anyone have a clear understanding of this criteria? Also, is there any known criteria for the shergottites that differentiates them from being extrusive or intrusive rocks...and if so, would it not be clearer to call them either a basalt or a gabbro? Going to deep I suppose, John Hello Norbert, I wonder why it is still the convention to name this Martian group lherzolitic shergottites. Although this geochemical group was historically included as a subgroup within the shergottite class, and therefore its members were called lherzolitic shergottites (or shergottitic peridotites), there is no genetic relationship between the basaltic and lherzolitic subgroups. The term lherzolites was proposed by Eugster and Polnau in 1997 to represent this unique group of Martian meteorites. In fact, they showed that the chemical composition of the basaltic shergottite group is closer to the nakhlites than to the lherzolites. Furthermore, these groups are resolved from each other on an O-isotope plot. I look forward to my next meeting with Bruno and Carine to add a small sample of this rare lherzolite to my collection (but not as big as yours Norbert!). David __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] AW: New Mars Meteorite Found In Morocco (NWA 1950)
Hello all, As usual I goofed...Norbert said NWA 1950 was closer to a Chassignite and not a Nakhlite...because it is has over 50% olivine. And after reviewing the Bulletin it appears it has about 30% pigeonite(a clinopyroxene). So it really is in between a Chassignite and a Nakhlite. Which got it(1950) generalized as a Shergottite!!! Sheesh...no wonder I'm confused, John David, Norbert and others: Statement of fact: I am a novice and I don't know exactly what I'm talking about it. Comment: With that said I find this whole subject of naming martian rocks to be somewhat difficult to sort out, or understand completely. Here goes... 1. Chassignites - very, very rare martian meteorite that is almost entirely composed of iron rich olivine, with a small amount of chromite, orthopyroxene, feldpars, and a tiny bit of hornblende. This rock is the equivalent of Dunite here on earth. On the gabroic triangle figure/chart, Dunite would be at the bottom center below the Peridotites that are split into Wehrlite(clinopyroxene based), Lherzolite(a residual melt/mixture of Wehrlite and Harzburgite), and Harzburgite(orthopyroxene based). 2. Nakhlites - a rare, but becoming less rare martian meteorite that is mostly made up of augite clinopyroxene, and has iron rich olivine, and small amounts of feldspars and other clinopyroxenes. This rock is the equivalent to earthly clinopyroxenite and olivine clinopyroxenite which both can be classified as a type of gabbro on earth. 3. Shergottites - a more typical martian meteorite that is mostly made up of clinopyroxene, and has several varieties based on the amount of olivine and feldspars to go along with the clinopyroxene. Now these are usually called basalts because of the mineral makeup that is similar for extrusive (volcanic) basalt and intrusive (dike/sill magma) basalt here on earth which is also know as gabbro. 4. Orthopyroxenite - ALH 84001 is not even close to these others from a mineral standpoint and it stands alone in the martian category. On earth it is also called an orthopyroxenite which is also known as a norite instead of a gabbro or basalt. A martian or earthly Lherzolite is really not a basalt/gabbro (shergottite), but a mixture or melt of a clinopyroxenite (Nakhlite) and an orthopyroxenite (ALH 84001). And depending on the level of one pyroxene versus another it is closer to one or the other. As Norbert suggested it must have more clinopyroxene than orthopyroxene, so that is why he said it is closer to a Nakhlite. Is anyone confused yet??? Bottom line is that I agree that NWA 1950 maybe misrepresented by calling it a shergottite...or the boundaries for being a shergottite are a lot broader than the other categories. Does anyone have a clear understanding of this criteria? Also, is there any known criteria for the shergottites that differentiates them from being extrusive or intrusive rocks...and if so, would it not be clearer to call them either a basalt or a gabbro? Going to deep I suppose, John Hello Norbert, I wonder why it is still the convention to name this Martian group lherzolitic shergottites. Although this geochemical group was historically included as a subgroup within the shergottite class, and therefore its members were called lherzolitic shergottites (or shergottitic peridotites), there is no genetic relationship between the basaltic and lherzolitic subgroups. The term lherzolites was proposed by Eugster and Polnau in 1997 to represent this unique group of Martian meteorites. In fact, they showed that the chemical composition of the basaltic shergottite group is closer to the nakhlites than to the lherzolites. Furthermore, these groups are resolved from each other on an O-isotope plot. I look forward to my next meeting with Bruno and Carine to add a small sample of this rare lherzolite to my collection (but not as big as yours Norbert!). David __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] AW: New Mars Meteorite Found In Morocco (NWA 1950)
Hello all, Just adding to my own comments: 1. I found a URL that has the gabroic triangle I mentioned in my earlier post (it is the second figure half way down webpage), and it is listed below. http://www.mpch-mainz.mpg.de/~jesnow/Ozeanboden/1998/Week1/Mineralogy.html 2. A list member from Europe gave me his understanding of these rocks and it is listed below. Since we are both novices I'll protect his name. mafic to ultra-mafic rocks sequence in the following manner coarse grained rocks of this nature are: Diorite, gabbro, olivine-gabbro, peridotite, dunite medium grained rocks: Micro-diorite, dolerite(diabase in USA), olivine-dolerite, peridotite, dunite fine-grained rocks: Andesite, basalt, olivine-basalt, peridotite, dunite Therefore: 1. Chassigny is the ultra-mafic Martian rock or dunite. 2. The latest Lherzolite shergottite(NWA 1950) is a Martian peridotite. 3. Most other shergottites are either basalts like Zagami, olivine-basalts (phyrics) like 1068 and other NWA's, etc., or the olivine dolerite Dhofar 019 being sold these days. 4. Nakhlites are clinopyroxenites. 5. ALH 84001 is a orthopyroxenite. As I said...and confirmed by our colleague, the shergottites surely do cover a number of different types of rocks making it necessary to differentiate them in some manner. Hope this helps. Thanx for reading, John David, Norbert and others: Statement of fact: I am a novice and I don't know exactly what I'm talking about it. Comment: With that said I find this whole subject of naming martian rocks to be somewhat difficult to sort out, or understand completely. Here goes... 1. Chassignites - very, very rare martian meteorite that is almost entirely composed of iron rich olivine, with a small amount of chromite, orthopyroxene, feldpars, and a tiny bit of hornblende. This rock is the equivalent of Dunite here on earth. On the gabroic triangle figure/chart, Dunite would be at the bottom center below the Peridotites that are split into Wehrlite(clinopyroxene based), Lherzolite(a residual melt/mixture of Wehrlite and Harzburgite), and Harzburgite(orthopyroxene based). 2. Nakhlites - a rare, but becoming less rare martian meteorite that is mostly made up of augite clinopyroxene, and has iron rich olivine, and small amounts of feldspars and other clinopyroxenes. This rock is the equivalent to earthly clinopyroxenite and olivine clinopyroxenite which both can be classified as a type of gabbro on earth. 3. Shergottites - a more typical martian meteorite that is mostly made up of clinopyroxene, and has several varieties based on the amount of olivine and feldspars to go along with the clinopyroxene. Now these are usually called basalts because of the mineral makeup that is similar for extrusive (volcanic) basalt and intrusive (dike/sill magma) basalt here on earth which is also know as gabbro. 4. Orthopyroxenite - ALH 84001 is not even close to these others from a mineral standpoint and it stands alone in the martian category. On earth it is also called an orthopyroxenite which is also known as a norite instead of a gabbro or basalt. A martian or earthly Lherzolite is really not a basalt/gabbro (shergottite), but a mixture or melt of a clinopyroxenite (Nakhlite) and an orthopyroxenite (ALH 84001). And depending on the level of one pyroxene versus another it is closer to one or the other. As Norbert suggested it must have more clinopyroxene than orthopyroxene, so that is why he said it is closer to a Nakhlite. Is anyone confused yet??? Bottom line is that I agree that NWA 1950 maybe misrepresented by calling it a shergottite...or the boundaries for being a shergottite are a lot broader than the other categories. Does anyone have a clear understanding of this criteria? Also, is there any known criteria for the shergottites that differentiates them from being extrusive or intrusive rocks...and if so, would it not be clearer to call them either a basalt or a gabbro? Going to deep I suppose, John Hello Norbert, I wonder why it is still the convention to name this Martian group lherzolitic shergottites. Although this geochemical group was historically included as a subgroup within the shergottite class, and therefore its members were called lherzolitic shergottites (or shergottitic peridotites), there is no genetic relationship between the basaltic and lherzolitic subgroups. The term lherzolites was proposed by Eugster and Polnau in 1997 to represent this unique group of Martian meteorites. In fact, they showed that the chemical composition of the basaltic shergottite group is closer to the nakhlites than to the lherzolites. Furthermore, these groups are resolved from each other on an O-isotope plot. I look forward to my next meeting with Bruno and Carine to add a small sample of this rare lherzolite to my collection (but not as big as yours Norbert!). David
Re: [meteorite-list] EBay analysis (preliminary)
Jamie, I think your decision to omit names is a good one. Anyone who follows ebay closely knows who is doing a lot or a little in general terms. It is simple to search specific buyers and sellers to see how much they have bought or sold over a period of time. Personally I could care less about those kinds of things(about individuals). Trends are interesting and your method of gathering info might enlighten the group as to what is going on over a period of time...say months. The two weeks that you did is just a brief snapshot in time that doesn't offer up too much information. Michael Blood could probably use this kind of trending for his monthly article. As for individual trends...well that certainly changes with time for most buyers. Many active individuals from a year or two ago hardly bid at all these days. Only a few continue to buy at a steady pace, spending a fair amount of money. Good luck trying to trend me and most others...it will mean nothing. Selling in bursts also happens for most...with the obvious few who are steady sellers from week to week. As for providing headswelling fodder and breaking news for those hungry for such attention and grand standing...well they are (I mean HE is) more than capable of letting us know about their offerings and conquests...usually in triplicate, BOLD LETTERS and profound statements. So send the trends and leave out the names is my vote. John Listees, I'm gonna suspend any more preliminary analysis publishing. I've already started a discussion with EBay. Meanwhile, I'm gonna continue experimenting with the analysis. If/when I publish any more data, I'll obfuscate identities as I described previously. Probably most of the interesting analysis doesn't require identities anyway: Number of new bidders by week Number of new sellers by week Total items, dollars sold by week Distribution of prices by week Any debate over those stats? All of that data is now trivial to obtain (as the raw data accumulates). It'll be fun to see the EBay meteorite market trends in an objective and comprehensive way. Please stay tuned. This thread has evoled to non-meteoritical topics. Skip the rest if you're interested in meteorite stuff only. Paul, Very nice discussion. Yeah, when I said server load was EBay's primary concern, I meant -- but did not write -- in the context of my specific robot. For various reasons, I'd argue that it does not consitute a derivate work or otherwise challenges EBay's expressed concerns (not even privacy as discussed in their text). Here are the numbered items from the EBay paragraph you cite: (i) My stated primary concern; #1 on their list as well. (ii) There are lots of cases dealing with these terms. Is the fact that X bought Y from Z for $N enforceable content? Elsewhere EBay goes to trouble to position itself as a venue. Interesting. All arguable -- but not by me now. (iii) No interference with the site. (iv) No bypass of robot exclusions. That said, my (experimental) robot is probably in violation of EBay's User Agreement simply because the agreement prohibits all robots. No need to research it, Mike. Whether the agreement and other EBay statements would withstand challenges from a system like mine is a different matter -- one I'm not interested in pursuing. I'm asking permission. Aside: EBay's robot prohibition is muddled. They do allow for some automated means (e.g., auction and bidding tools). Also note http://www.ebay.com/robots.txt which, incidently, does not restrict the pages I use. Why not? BTW, my background includes lots of large-scale data integration work. Also I have fair amount of experience in intellectual property licensing (including user agreements); patent prosecution, infringement, and licensing; and other IP-related activities. But, as I frequently say in this context, IANAL. (I Am Not A Lawyer.) I do hang out with them a fair amount. At Christmas, they send me gifts, which I fear they bought with my money. Thanks for the feedback, Paul. --Jamie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good day Folks, I have been following the thread about the compilation of statistical information regarding the sales/purchases of meteorites on eBay. Personally, I found the compilation both interesting and informative and I have no objection to having been included in the published compilation. That having being said, I'd like to preface the following by stating that while I am by no means an expert in cyber law, I am an attorney. I must admit that when robots were mentioned in a recent post to the list I had to do some research to try and figure out exactly what a robot was and what it did. I don't claim to be a computer programer/analyst either. Now that I have a rough idea what a robot is and what it does I'd like to
Re: [meteorite-list] The Meteorite Poster
Geoff, David and others: The poster is very cool. I was fortunate enough to see Geoff's final workup for the poster printing. There is a lot of great space rocks pictured to drool over. A number of great shapes, and a variety of colors and textures/patterns to really catch your eye relative to the diversity of meteorites. Hats off to these fine efforts and to all involved...I think this poster will do well over time. Time to order a couple. John Hello all, Geoff paid me a big compliment when he equated my writing abilities with those of the really big talents - O. Richard Norton, Dr. Harry McSween, and Dr. David Kring. They are a source of inspiration. Of course I feel privileged to have had a role in the production of this high quality educational poster. A friend of mine has seen it advertised in Science News, and I hear that Sarah has great contacts to make it available through many well-known venues. The poster exceeded my expectations and Geoff must surely be proud to see how well his idea has turned out. I was asked to write the descriptions at the level of someone with an interest and/or a basic knowledge in meteorites, so I hope all you experts out there will find the information enjoyable. Regards, David __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Ownership Claimed for Asteroid 433 Eros
$10 trillion for Eros???...I got first dibs on Vesta...and Gaspra too. I called it. I called it. Please note that... to whoever is Secretary of the New Frontier. All new Vesta HED meteorites should be sent to my PO Box address below. Please comply or we'll see you in court. From the edge of the Belt, John __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
RE: [meteorite-list] Lunar eclipse
James and others, Last night's total lunar eclipse was one to remember for us here in Eastern US (near Philly/Harrisburg for me). The night was ss...eerie and spooky(scary in theory). Such a moon and sky would have made a great night for Halloween. The timing was close enough for me though. Memories of having a couple pieces of field corn in hand, a notched thread spool, string and pencil...off to raise minor heck ran through my mind from 35 years ago. Last night started off cold and clear with a full moon in the eastern sky. The first half of the eclipse shadow moved from left to right, north to south across the moon(probably one of the more spookier times during the event), and during the second half (shadow lift)...the sun was lighting the moon from the bottom up slightly skewed to the north (4 o'clock to 9 o'clock). The time period for the total eclipse itelf was about a half hour or so. During the eclipse the moon had a dark yellowish-orange hue to it. It was very striking against the dark sky. As the shadow was lifting a thin layer of fast moving clouds came through and built up to the east towards Philly. The moving clouds gave the viewing even more dynamics...it was a sight to see, and notably it was about 32 F..0 C degrees(cold) at this point. These clouds building in the east developed a faint yellow hue to them as the eclipse lifted. The moon had moved to the south and slightly higher in the sky. I took my older son and his friend for a ride in the car during the blackout...I think they will remember a sleep-over night when we were about 12 years old and we had a total eclipse of the moon...it was sooo cool. It was. Going lunar again, John Reading, PA __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] The Galaxy to Dust, Animal House and Odds
Hello All, While I was watching the visual transitions in powers of ten of the solar system at the cool website below...I was reminded of Donald Sutherland's partying professor story line about our solar system...that we could actually be in an atom located in some other beings fingernail. Far out...maybe it's true. Also, after looking at this model/concept...I pondered...What are the odds of a high speed meteorite from a very large orbiting comet of actually falling on a leaf in Florida? '''About the same as finding a meteorite in the talus fields on the south facing slides of certain mountain s out west, in the state of...ah, ah never mind...I don't know why I said that. http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/index.html enjoy, John __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Ad -Rare Weekly Material Special
Just to confirm that a suspicious name like Phlogopite has been confirmed to NOT be another name for snake oil...I looked it up and it(phlogoplite) is a name for a rare iron poor mica (a mineral). A mica rich meteorite? Does this give the possibility that water might have been involved in the formation/transformation of this rock? Maybe not...just curious. I thought micas were sometimes caused/triggered by water intrusion into a magma? John Dear List Members, This weeks rare material special is NWA 1235, a strange ungrouped Phlogopite-bearing Enstatite achondrite. It is classified as an ungrouped Phlogopite-bearing Enstatite Achondrite, in other words a unique one-of-a-kind meteorite with a Total Known Weight (TKW) of only 80 grams. We were lucky to get a few grams of this material in trade for some planetary specimens so it was not an inexpensive acquisition. We are keeping the largest piece for our collection and are offering the rest. This meteorite is even odder than NWA 011, which garnered a lot of press in the last couple years after speculation it may have originated from the planet Mercury. Just like NWA 011 the parent body is unknown. It will be interesting to see where the O-isotopes place it. We were told the finder is keeping the rest in his collection so very little will be available so now may be the time to bid. We are starting all of the NWA 1235 specimens out at just .99 and will let the market decide their value. In this weeks auction we are also introducing nine never before offered meteorites. To see these just look for NEW in the title and to see this week's special look at NWA1235. Link to eBay auctions below: Action Link: http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/meteoritelab/ Thank you for looking and if you are bidding, good luck. All the best, Adam and Greg Hupe The Hupe Collection IMCA 2185 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Korra Korrabes
Oxidation and overall weathering/life on earth kind of thing I would suspect makes this meteorite hard to inspect for evidence. A fresh cut face would be the best you could do in a hand sample...or obviously looking at a thin section would be ideal way to see chondrules(shape and numbers) in the H3 realm. Someone was selling them on ebay this summer/fall I believe. refamat was it? JD Hi, Last night Mark Ford and I and an enjoyable evening going thru his new acquisitions - the one that caused the most confusion was the Korra Korrabes specimen - an H3. Well, we looked at it, compared it to other H3s, also to the Ghubara, and we found it difficult to see how this is an H3. We are obviously missing a critical issue here, because the chondrules were scant, and indistinct, in fact my Ghub, at an L6 had more structure visible. It was a very dark matrix too, whereas a lot of H3s have a light matrix (ie Parnallee) How and why is KK an H3 - the native iron was sparse, and the chondrules largely invisible. So, how come it's an H3? inquisitively, Dave IMCA #0092 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Korra Korrabes
H's are usually darker than L's...Ghubara is unusally black when cut/polished, for an L5 (it is a black L with xenoliths)...not normal for L's. Also Parnallee is not a H3...it is a LL3.6...which are lighter in color than H's. JD Hi, Last night Mark Ford and I and an enjoyable evening going thru his new acquisitions - the one that caused the most confusion was the Korra Korrabes specimen - an H3. Well, we looked at it, compared it to other H3s, also to the Ghubara, and we found it difficult to see how this is an H3. We are obviously missing a critical issue here, because the chondrules were scant, and indistinct, in fact my Ghub, at an L6 had more structure visible. It was a very dark matrix too, whereas a lot of H3s have a light matrix (ie Parnallee) How and why is KK an H3 - the native iron was sparse, and the chondrules largely invisible. So, how come it's an H3? inquisitively, Dave IMCA #0092 __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteoritecollectorsassociation] Re: [meteorite-list] Who know the email of this idiot?
Hello all, 1. I have to admit it was not me. 2. I should be offended since the culprit used a picture of my twin brother for Tom...paternal twin of course. Shouldn't make fun of my Bucky. 3. Also, the second or third meteorite down is a fake I think...I adjusted the color towards green and it looks more like a loaf of zuchinni bread, or it is a new nakhlite...yet to be classified. 4. A long time ago I had a brick of an Agoult-type looking substance...but it just didn't last for some reason. John __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
RE: [meteorite-list] To the all happy persons of the idiot site
To all on lookers closer to the victim,
ignore the babble, get a pan for the drool, keep out of reach...and ah, also
call 911
and tell him that time can heal...and for him to get back to us after that
Go ahead,
JD
HUH?
-matt
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of M come
Meteorite Meteorites
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2003 11:45 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [meteorite-list] To the all happy persons of the idiot site
We feel, a what little you would make you if I
building a site where take nearly all to you in turn,
been to watch only? Fairies still the smiles and the
struck ones? Or would hit you a lot? If for case
fairies it leave of the first category, then you are
not for null normal persons. And stop to write
idiocyes care this ex-siteis nice...is funny
etc... etc the person is only a poor idiot. Is
easy close the site, write to the personal email of
the company, is not visible in the site, and this see
to close or not...easy
Matteo
--- Jerry A. Wallace [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Michael,
I sincerely doubt that Matteo had anything to do
with the Proud Tom site
being removed. I'm relatively sure that its creator
must have decided to
remove it, or didn't pay the webspace rental bill.
{8O
Howsomever, anyone in hurtful need of seeing those
classic webpages
again need not despair as I have collected all three
pages in glorious color
and have assembled the collection on CDs. For a mere
$9.99 + postage
those pages can live forever in your library of Web
Classics.
Whoa...whoa... Michael, stuff that steam back in
your ears...I'm just
kidding!!!
If you would like them, write me off list and I'll
email them to you.
Assuming that I'll need the kind permission of the
website's creator in
order
to do that, if he (or she) would please get in touch
with me, we can
discuss
royalty arrangements. Please bear in mind that I'm
rally cheap.
Jerry
Michael L Blood wrote:
on 11/15/03 1:39 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
the Ku Kus Klan??? Please, no more,, my sides
are still hurting
from the Proud Tom site. (where's my oxygen
tank?)
---
Say wha?
I am heartbroken that Proud Tom's web page is
down.
Matteo, you bragged you could do this. Did you
shut it down?
RSVP to list, please.
Michael
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=
M come Meteorite - Matteo Chinellato
Via Triestina 126/A - 30030 - TESSERA, VENEZIA, ITALY
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sale Site: http://www.mcomemeteorite.com Collection Site:
http://www.mcomemeteorite.info
International Meteorite Collectors Association #2140
MSN Messanger: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
EBAY.COM:http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/mcomemeteorite/
__
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
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Re: [meteorite-list] nantan
Roman and others, This guy has it backwards. Selling a tektite as a Nantan makes no sense. You should always sell true tektites with a descriptive type name like Indochinites, and on occasion sell the Nantans as tektites...not the other way around. Selling a Nantan as a Nantan is a real loser these days...at least call it a meteorwrong like Hematite to get a decent buck or two($). Telling them it's going to the good of the IMCA also helps I hear. ;) gobble, gobble John John Yeseree, it's a teardrop shape INDOCHINITE. You can make out the flow lines and regmaglypts and the bright light yellow-brown color is right. I have a bunch of the different tektite shape. But $200.00 is nuts for a small one like that. The most I've ever paid for a really nice one of that size is $15.00 -$25.00. Later. * Roman (IMCA # 0583) From: Tim Gingell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [meteorite-list] nantan Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:53:24 - Please correct me if I am wrong but is this not just a tektite. Tim http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=2206201663category=3239 _ Say goodbye to busy signals and slow downloads with a high-speed Internet connection! Prices start at less than $1 a day average. https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.) __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] possible new illinois meteorite find
you never know...probably have to call it Tessera 002 -- Original message from Steve Arnold, Chicago!!! [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -- Hell, who says that you have to be a mother to have something nice happen to you on mothers day?At about 2:45 chicago time, I was doing some hunting at a nearby rock quarry, when I spotted as very nice crusted stone mixed in with a bunch of others.I picked it up and looked and I just started to get real excited.So I came home and did some testing.It passes the magnetic test slightly,the streak test comes up positive.Tomorrow I am going to sand a small piece down to make sure.It is only 11.5 grams.There is no denying the fusion crust.I will have better results tomorrow night.You can see it on my homepage on my website.I feel very,very positive about this.As harry used to say,HOLY COW! STEVE ARNOLD, CHICAGO Steve R.Arnold, Chicago, IL, 60120 Illinois Meteorites,Ltd! website url http://stormbringer60120.tripod.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] yahoogroups
yaa-hooo ! -- Original message from Steve Arnold, Chicago!!! [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -- Hello list.I guess it was another ANTI-STEVE BASHING DAY for what I saw on the 40 or more emails I got.Well I am taking the advise of mr.herr martin and take my sales to YAHOOGROUPS to make advertisements concerning meteorites.I am truly sorry for all the socalled spam I have been giving the list.It will not happen anymore.I should have done this along time ago.I KNOW what this list is for.And you are right, 30 emails concerning the same thing in 1 month is to much.Well with that said, I hope all my american friends have a very nice and safe holiday. steve arnold, chicago Steve R.Arnold, Chicago, IL, 60120 Illinois Meteorites,Ltd! website url http://stormbringer60120.tripod.com __ Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Hidden Treasure
looks like the LL4 named NWA 806 JD -- Original message from [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -- Good Morning List, Dean, A few monthes ago my brother and I made the short drive to Dean Besseys 'cross the river, where we spent all our pennies on different treasures of the world, stockpiled in Deans humble apartment. It was great, lots of meteorites, fossils, old coins, a lap machine for polishing, we were definately like two kids in a candy store! We bought the lap machine as well as some examples of the items mentioned above. After haveing the lap machine at home for a while I was polishing some slices when one of them got away and was lodged under the lap wheel where I could not reach it. I had to tip it on its side to get the slice to fall out, and when I did this there was a little surprise. A 3.72 gram end cut of an unidentified meteorite was hiding under the lap wheel! Obviously a left over remnant from another persons day of meteorite labors. Was it Deans? Or did he leave it there for me as a freebie to be found at a later date just because he's a nice guy? Or did it belong to the guy that he bought the machine from? What kind of meteorite is it? Am I the rightful owner of this small treasure? Or do I need to do the right thing and see if Dean wants it back? Of course he can have it back if he wants,(small polishing fee of $45.00 of course) but is this a good case for Finders keepers?! Would it be different if the slice was lunar vs. an OC? I'm offering it back to him of course, but what would you do? What if you found a slice of an anomolous martian hiding in there? Just a friendly survey! I haven't told Dean, I thought I would have some fun with it first! I need some help identifying it. It's a really cool stone, not quite like any I'm familiar with. There is hardly any attraction to a magnet, what little metal there is, is in round beads. There are some very well defined chondrules and some blown out ones, and there is a really odd inclusion that I would like some opinions on. It's a sort of yellow gold color with black stripes, you'll know which one when you see it. http://community.webshots.com/album/354985092HCtnUp Also, I was asked to write a Franconia field report for the IMCA website. I want to thank Ken Newton for putting it together so well, excellent job Ken! It can be viewed here; http://imca.repetti.net/metinfo/fieldreports.html Rock On! Larry __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] What are the True Color(s) of Mars ???
After years of studying rocks from Mars, pictures of Mars, and 500 days of closeup study of Mars with the rovers, does the science community have any idea about... What color(s) would Mars have(look like) if the rusty outer skin was pealed back to the raw, unaffected rock? Mostly light colors ? same w/some Greens ? Patchy w/whites and greens Light green? Green ? Brown ? Some brown and black patches with one the lighter options above? Dark to black? I'd like to think it was mostly green with some light and dark areas. . Imagine, JD __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Cold, Dry and Lifeless - A New Take on Mars (and True Color?)
Maybe this answers my Mars color question. The opening paragraph says... New research on a green mineral that degrades easily in water and is present over much of the Martian surface is fuelling debates over the history of water and the current existence of life on the Red planet. JD -- Original message from Ron Baalke [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -- http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7463 Cold, dry and lifeless - a new take on Mars Maggie McKee New Scientist June 3, 2005 New research on a green mineral that degrades easily in water and is present over much of the Martian surface is fuelling debates over the history of water and the current existence of life on the Red planet. One study reveals that a region rich in the mineral olivine - which suggests it is has been dry for about 3 billion years - is actually four times larger than previously thought. That adds to a growing body of evidence suggesting Mars was mostly cold and dry - and not warm and wet - in the past. The second study asserts that subsurface reactions of olivine and water could produce enough methane to account for recent observations of the gas in the atmosphere, removing the need to invoke living microbes to do the job. Olivine forms at very high temperatures and is one of the first minerals to crystallise out of molten rock. But at lower temperatures and in the presence of water, it is thermodynamically unhappy and breaks down really quickly into other minerals, says Phil Christensen, a geologist at Arizona State University in Tempe, US. He and colleague Victoria Hamilton of the University of Hawaii in Honolulu, US, have used infrared images taken with NASA's Mars Odyssey spacecraft to show that the olivine-rich rocks on the flank of the volcano Syrtis Major cover a surface area of 113,000 square kilometres - about half the size of the UK. Higher resolution That is nearly four times larger than the estimate made by NASA's Mars Global Surveyor (MGS) spacecraft. The difference has been attributed to Odyssey's ability to resolve details as small as 100 metres across, a 30-fold improvement over MGS. Christensen and Hamilton's study is published in the journal Geology (vol 33, p 433). The rocks, at a latitude of 20° north of the planet's equator, appear to have formed through successive lava eruptions about 3 billion years ago. To keep olivine around so long suggests this area of Mars may not have seen a lot of water or a warm climate, Hamilton told New Scientist. That finding differs markedly from the recent discoveries made by the Mars rovers of minerals that form in the presence of water. But Christensen says such discoveries represent rare flooding events lasting for weeks or months and that for most of the planet's 4.5 billion-year history, any water has been locked in ice. I am not a proponent of the idea that Mars had oceans in the past, says Christensen. He says mineral mapping from orbit reveals most of the planet is covered in volcanic rocks, which shows most of Mars hasn't seen much water. Scientists have failed to find minerals such as carbonates and clays that form in oceans on Earth, he says. I'm moving in the direction of 'cold and dry' more and more, agrees Hamilton. But there are other scientists headed in the other direction, thinking Mars was warmer and wetter. It is an ongoing discussion. Making methane The discovery of more olivine on the surface of Mars also supports the argument that underground reserves of the mineral could produce methane, says geologist Mukul Sharma of Dartmouth College in Hanover, New Hampshire, US. He and colleague Chris Oze detail their proposal in the journal Geophysical Research Letters (vol 32, L10203). Olivine tends to sink when it crystallises from magma, which implies at some depth there has to be a lot more olivine than you see on the surface, says Sharma. The team says there is enough olivine in the top 10 kilometres of the crust to explain the recent detections of methane in Mars's atmosphere - if there are stores of liquid water underground, as many scientists suspect. Water reacts with a common, iron-rich form of olivine by producing hydrogen gas, which then combines with carbon dioxide to produce methane. The gas could then leak to the surface through gullies. The easiest way to produce all the methane people have observed is by the reaction of olivine with water, Sharma told New Scientist. Other researchers have proposed that microbes might be a continuous source of the gas, which is easily destroyed by sunlight in the atmosphere. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list
Re: [meteorite-list] another beautiful day
Terry, I fully support your desire to see that the List Rrichardhead cool his heals, and ultimately does not send us so much crap/spam. Otherwise ...the responsive wrath of yourself, me and others will only continue. Doing this, in spite of loyal support for Ssteve from as many as 4 to 5 list members. I think this is Michael's way of trying to show Ssteve how lame these stupid posts really are. Whether it is working or not is in doubt. We know that the brick up there is mighty thick. So, I doubt he gets it, and will be sending pics and more stirring stories real soon. Yikes...will this sstupid ssaga ever end? John -- Original message from [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -- Michael: I asked you this question once on list, and you did not reply. I will try again. For someone as interested as you are in the purity and sanctity of this hobby/vocation, it is clear to me and others that you are you endorsing the list buffoon's posting and discussion of his vacation to this meteorite list by asking him for vacation information. Why? Why not ask him off list if you are so interested? Terry StarMeteorites __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] different prices of meteorites
Boy Oh Boy John, Where do we start and end with this one? BTW...I am so happy and relieved to be back on the List dealing with these important matters. Spending 10 long days in Maui (Hawaii) with nothing to do is a killer. That place is s boring...there is nothing to do there for us cool meteorite dudes. But, I got along OK...thinking of the List all the time to keep me happy. Also, while looking for meteorites on the lava strewn beaches, in the jungles along the Hana Highway, around the Haleakala volcano, while snorkling off of Molokini and bill fishing off of Lahaina. http://www.hawaiiweb.com/maui/html/sites/molokini.html I'm so happy to be back. :( Anyway...what is missing from one of our great representatives? I have a couple. about 99 % of the meteorites he ever owned and a clue (might be covered by the Boat?) the Udder John BTW, Maui is recommended if you like to do all that boring outdoor stuff. Also, no personal pictures will be available to the List. Sorry folks. -- Original message from JKGwilliam [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -- At 03:32 AM 6/22/2005, Steve Arnold, Chicago!!! wrote: Or are there some other things I am missing as well?Any help would be appreciated. A list of these items could prove to be quite extensive. I'll mention just a few of them here. Other List members might be able to add to it. the boat good grammar correct spelling e.g. Matzalan;-) sharp pictures Best, JKGwilliam __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] (AD) iron meteorite sale,ebay and givaways
Would the 3 bashem triplets be a total 9, Dave? I never know with this new math from Chi-town. The total of 9 for the primary bashers might be right, but for an overall total, that number seems low... JD What is the % profit of a 3 for 1 sale that is 50% off, plus one piece for free equal to if the base price is 4.273 times higher than the present Ebay price ? Give up it is 200 % of course ! Dumb as a fox (squirrel) he is. -- Original message from DNAndrews [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -- HmmmI can't seem to find you listed in here Steve. http://cdsprod.ilsos.net/corp.html I think it would be wise to drop the LTD from your website and email signature. Just a suggestion from Bashem #3. Is Elgin in Canada maybe??? Steve Arnold, Chicago!!! wrote: Well somewhere down the road this email will end up in email hell I am sure for alot of you,even the 3 bashem triplets.I have 6 auctions on ebay and I also have 8 items on my website forsale and I still have a few springwater pallasite crystals still so check them out.The sale is for 8 iron meteorites. steve Steve R.Arnold, Chicago, IL, 60120 Illinois Meteorites,Ltd! website url http://stormbringer60120.tripod.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Dean Bessey material from a new supllier - what is it ?
Hello all, This morning I finally got to look at a new fragment of a meteorite that Dean Bessey sold as an un-cut, unclassified meteorite that is probably an LL. He sold about 5 small pieces an I bought one of them for about $5/g. The material was from a new supplier, making it somewhat unique in Dean's eyes. The fragment has a nice black melted crust, not unlike many HED meteorites. There is a pull with a strong magnet similar to an LL. Not weak, but not strong like an L. There are no signs of chondrules on the slightly brown-weathered broken faces. Looks like a fair amount of orthopyroxene sticking through. To me it is a nice Diogenite, but I have yet to cut it. I was wondering if anyone else who bought a piece has studied it enough to come to a conclusion? Has anyone cut it yet either ? Curious, but not ready to cut. John __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Dean Bessey material from a new supllier - what is it ?
Hello folks, below are some photobucket pics of the 17.6 g fragment I am talking about. I added them just now. the pics were rushed (my apologies), and this is my first attempt at using photobucket. let's try direct links to pics. http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b164/gabbroman/besseynew006.jpg http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b164/gabbroman/besseynew003.jpg http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b164/gabbroman/besseynew001.jpg John -- Original message from [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -- Hello all, This morning I finally got to look at a new fragment of a meteorite that Dean Bessey sold as an un-cut, unclassified meteorite that is probably an LL. He sold about 5 small pieces an I bought one of them for about $5/g. The material was from a new supplier, making it somewhat unique in Dean's eyes. The fragment has a nice black melted crust, not unlike many HED meteorites. There is a pull with a strong magnet similar to an LL. Not weak, but not strong like an L. There are no signs of chondrules on the slightly brown-weathered broken faces. Looks like a fair amount of orthopyroxene sticking through. To me it is a nice Diogenite, but I have yet to cut it. I was wondering if anyone else who bought a piece has studied it enough to come to a conclusion? Has anyone cut it yet either ? Curious, but not ready to cut. John __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
