Re: [meteorite-list] DEMOCRATIC FILTERING
Hey! Great to have you back...rolling eyes Perhaps it isn't the conspiracy you feel it to be. I can understand your sense of paranoia but your allegations are not consistent with the reality of Internet operations. Off topic but many Internet managers maintain a dynamic list(black list) of ISPs( Internet Service Providers) that are being breeched and are sending out copious amounts of spam. It happens to me on my local hill billy ISP far too often on this list and it is here in the US. If your ISP is blacklisted, it is frozen out of sending message traffic to certain domains, as the case may be, for the time period which major spamming attacks are on going. If it is frequently breeched and is slow to respond it might remain on the list for days. This is pretty much described in your back channel messages you quoted and has nothing to do with the meteorite list. I can see how you might be skeptical, knowing how Americans and the New World Order are secretly moving to control the meteorite market as a practice run on the world computer chip industry. Normally, it is the ISP that does the negotiation with the other domains and not the end user. However, you have disbelieved the IT manager's messages so I guess what I am saying is redundant. my bad back to /in stfu. /EJ/ / [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I take this as an example of the best American, pluralistic and democratic spirit. You are going to take it however you wish but no need to get anti-American, this is an international list. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Vision Rock: Final Answer?
You want the truth? You can't handle the truth... Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men Gze This started out as a fight I had no dog in; now it is so beyond worth dealing with, it is a Dog I have no fight left in. Next time I speak up tell me to remain /in stfu/. I posted lengthy replies regarding the Vision Rock with specifics-- why,what, and where, underpinned my statements with verifiable information. So this talk about trying to squash scientific inquiry is rubbish. It is clear to me that what I wrote wasn't read anyway. I have been chided for things which I didn't do and vice versa. And let me clarify, It wasn't so much the issue of meteorite lab time as it was about shooting down one's personal credibility by sending a obvious meteorwrong off to a lab and becoming another statistic in their eyes of the meteorite experts that don't know Jack. It is hard to chop lengthy details into sound bites when one is answering complicated questions. Even harder to communicate technical details when the audience is not sure where to begin nor what questions to ask. What the Vision Rock is specifically or technically isn't an easy answer. And the owner would not likely understand anyway. It is fairly easy to get in the ball park of identification but I am not going to tell anyone go to the Palermo Mine or the St Lawrence County Mining district of New York or to look down in the creek bed. I gave anyone that read it hints enough. Few here likely know that many minerals are only discernible at the molecular level. You look at their sample and tell them it is calcite and they argue that you are wrong because they bought if from a dealer that said it is ferro-mangnoancalcite. There are perhaps 20-30 minerals in what is called the Kaolin-Serpentine group and one can only reliably identify 4 - 8 of them by sight alone. There are 250 minerals from New Hampshire so that should narrow one's search (:-) Gary is trying to identify a rock and that is not the same as a mineral. So now add another 8-12 rock types to evaluate and you can start to see the scope of effort to answer what is this exactly? What is the difference between marble, hornfels, pegmatite, gneiss, and basalt? In some places? as little as about 30 feet. I think I was the only poster that attempted to answer Gary's technical issues. I believe I have been a strong supporter for him, understanding he is in a dilemma . We are differing in approach, but to me, support doesn't mean being a yes man. I believe he has undertaken his own quest to understand and his first meteorite identification case is complicated beyond most everyone's experience. In the old days list the members were not bickering about TKWs and pairings but were generous with their technical knowledge. Sorry I am used to the old list where folks actually addressed complicated answers. I know I come across as pedantical but I am not. There are already those rolling on the floor laughing and writing rebuttals without finishing what I've said. This whole Vision Quest affair is ultimately moot for no amount of technical proof is going to resolve this situation because the owner is seeking a specific answer and not the truthand any answer other than a Martian meteorite challenges his vision. (Do the affairs of Boggy Creek or Frass Martian Grasshoppers stir anyone's memory?) I believe the owner is pressing him( Gary) to prove it isn't a meteorite. I believe Gary's willingness to tackle this problem has put him in a no-win situation. Time will tell one way or another. So let me back off everything I have said about the possible identification of this rock as I don't want to restrict anyone's right to conduct an investigation in a manner of their choosing. Maybe is far more rewarding to exude enthusiasm and dream dreams than to deal with the realities and probabilities of Ockhum's Razor.( Yes, I don't follow minimum message length theory in practice). If the Vision Rock owner is happy with the identification of a hematite nodule, magnetite schist, or a sheared off piece of sub continental-shelf sea-floor--that is what is most important, right? But the next round of Ebay auctions might read Frands..und Viures... Let me share with you another defeat for the Priests of Baal...G*d sent me an unbeliever meteorite expert and not even he could prove me wrong! He tried to trick me with words but I said Get Behind me Satan and sent him packing!! What G*d hath said let no mortal man dispute! On a side note, why did no one address the the question about knowing why this can't be a Martian Meteorite? I have a good idea why no one spoke up but it is only a close guess and you know the cliche close is only good for horseshoes and hand grenades. Very few seem interested in science anymore--too frequently it is an inconvenient truth that gets in the way of our poker game so we really aren't interested. We prefer to argue esoteric pin-head things like who has the
Re: [meteorite-list] Seeking Knowledge and Dealing with Meteorwrong Owners was Classification Q
Hello Gary, Pete, List I've held back discussing this again as I am not the one on the vision quest. However, you've raised the issue of getting this classified aka lab tested--at a meteorite lab amongst other things. You think he can sell this for a sum and rebuild his failing ministry. He'll make more in bake sales. For Pete's sake...and mine , please tell us why you remain convinced that this is valuable specimen beyond a that of landscaping boulder? Interesting doesn't equate to rare and valuable. If it were, my collection would be worth millions. I also want to say I loathe going out on a limb especially working with photographs--there will always be someone near by with pruning shears and they have a long memory for when you made a bad call. Old Man's ambush of the whipper snapper: There are 3 straight up reasons not requiring lab work that show this can't be a Martian meteorite-- name one? How to Beef Up your Knowledge Base: In a nut shell, a way to improve your identification knowledge is to get out and see all the rocks you can, So when one does come up that you haven't seen before, you'll have a better basis to judge if it is rare or if it is just interesting. Additionally: read, read, read. Google is your friend. Get Norton's Cambridge Encyclopedia of Meteorites and McSween's Meteorites and their Parent Bodies Read them three times. Study your own collection, practice describing each specimen to your self. Advice from the Good Ole Boy Girl Network: As far as seeking classification(?) Trust me on this , your credibility is on the line every time you refer a specimen for meteorite identification and that credibility slips down the toilet when you send in an obvious meteorwrong. The way I see it is, you owe a duty to the astro-geologist you contact to not waste his/her time. If you do a field accessment and are unable to eliminate/ exclude an object as a meteorite, only then do you start considering recommending it to a meteorite lab and that only after you've floated it to your other colleagues for their input. If you hold yourself out as a meteorite expert then you better be able to back it up with several the reasons it is not likely a meteorite or these meteorwrong owners will eat your lunch and send you packing with your tail twixed your legs--Because you did not confirm their rock as a meteorite--They obviously know more than you do!. I re-learn the following lesson each day: You should not interfere with another's right to remain ignorant. No matter how much wishing, hoping, or praying it isn't going to turn this water into wine. No matter how sincere you believe this pastor is--his hidden agenda is to keep this dream alive until he can explain it away and face the reality that this was not a God send. I assure you it has nothing to do with mineralogy. Some churches die on the vine for good reasons! Check out Luke's Gospel?--it has been a while since I did any church preaching. I feel for you but your Dutch Uncle would likely advise you to get away from this situation as soon as you can extract yourself honoring whatever commitments you've made. Read what Randy Korotev has to say after dealing with 1000's of meteorwrong owners http://epsc.wustl.edu/admin/resources/meteorites/what_to_do.html The Quest New Hampshire isn't a large state(nor is Vermont ) and seems you would have scoured the state by now if not in person via google. Google the Chlorite mineral group (esp. Clinochlore) and the rock types greenschist , blueschist, and syenite. (See the links way below) I only have state for location, cursory description and photos(needing a reference object--coin, ruler, etc.) which you've taken down to go on. The new photo makes me go back to Actenolite-Tremolite as I can see large crystals and to me this looks like other occurrences I have seen. The flaky granules point to Clinochlore or any of several Chlorite group minerals. I think this rock is not homogeneous but a mix of parents because Chlorite and Tremolite aren't usually associated but they are found in adjacent deposits. If just going by casual appearances I would note that a cut face of Bilinga also shows some crystal faces as so do some Eucrites. You must have wondered where the depressions in the Vision rock came from if not regmaglypts. Well remember the furry over human foot prints found inside dinosaur foot prints in soft shale in Texas by some Creation(sic) Scientists? When conventional scientist went to the location they found the heals of the dinosaur tracks had been doctored to human shape during clean out. The Creationists were cleaning out the tracks until their foot would fit in the depression. Well... you see where this is going. Options: 1. Port this over to the Rockhound's List at Drizzle.com. There are world class mineralogist there and this is their forte. Avoid telling them what you think it is and ask them what it might be based on location and physical appearance. To
Re: [meteorite-list] Some more spectacular meteorite finds.
Armando Afonso wrote: You look for them while you drive, with the air conditioning at the maximum, or walking by foot? The question is that you look fresh like a biological lettuce from Tucson in the photos, and I remember my look during a little trip to Morocco. I normally have a very clear skin, but that time I could be confused with a Tuareg. (e.g. Swarthy Berbers, Bedoins, etc.) Incredible, what we can find by the side of the road. Or was the head of this strewfield on the lobby of the hotel? AA Seems there is a hidden agenda here so for the newbies on the list: Someone hasn't gotten over the Ourique Affair... Does anyone remember the details, didn't the professionals/geologists that recovered it also throw the bulk of the National Treasure it in the waste bin after they sent off the samples to headquarters? Inquiring Minds Want to Know! Elton __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lost Opportunities Past and Future was Some ..meteorite finds.
Armando Afonso wrote: But I blame them as much as you, for a unconcerned approach to the subject. I far more concerned about the subject than one would imagine, and I understand how it can offend. I don't think I'll ever get over the Tagish Lake Fiasco even if I understand the decisions made. If the willing, ready and, competent volunteers had been allowed to assist, a lot less of the 99% that sank would be available for study/collections. Examples of how not to do it, of course we have the lens of hindsight on these matters and even that lens is can produce polarized images. We would hope the next example isn't like Park Forrest with the police sponsored extortion. I find after the headlines have faded-- so do the lessons learned. Looking beyond these examples I will be a voice in the wilderness lamenting the lack of planning for such an event as a major fall. There are many impediments to a workingsolution. While you and I differ, perhaps, in point of view, but we are probably motivated by more in common. For myself, I cannot equate the random fall of a meteorite onto any given political jurisdiction as culturally connected, automatically garnering the status of cultural property. I can support the claim a little easier if it is classified as an object of scientific value and it is timely recovered and curated for science. The cultural claim comes across as a guise for ( in your allusion) government-sponsored piracy. In some recent similar situations, it was a stretch to claim that a skeleton buried 10,000 years before a modern tribe roamed a given territory was culturally connected to that Johnny-come-lately occupant of said adjacent tribal lands and thus a culturally affilated remain that had to be immediately reintered. A Florida agency recently moved to virtually eliminate all fossil collecting in waterways of the state, where before there was a licensing program in place to report and document certain finds. All these mentalities tend to quash science rather than promote it. There can be cooperation after the fact. In the case of the Otzi the bronze-aged mummy found by German tourists on the Austrian-Italian border, Austria agreed after recovering Otzi he had actually been inside Italy and turned over the remains to Italy. If we had to wait for a court decision, the body would have long since decayed where it laid. The point being there are scientifically important events where the find can be properly preserved and the details of ownership sorted out afterwards. (I am reminded of the old riddle: If an airplane of immigrants crashes on border of Arizona and Colorado which state is responsible for burying the survivors, but I digress). Bottomline is that both institution and collector will lose out if we don't have a plan. Some while ago there was a conference, I understand, that promoted the cooperation of professional and amateur working together instead of trashing each other and missing opportunities(paleo? meteoritical?). If anyone remembers this I'd like to know what became of that effort as for establishing a protocol or guideline for how they would work together. I also recall a private initiative to produce a training program leading to certification for credentialing field investigators/recovery workers. Here in the US, the Federal Government; the National Park Service, The Forestry Service,and the Department of Defense(DoD)--amongst the larger public property holders, have no framework in place to allow the recovery of any meteorite fall on public lands. (BLM has a gray-area void for anything under 250lbs, Dave Freeman knows more about the specifics). Imagine an Allende-sized shower in the Mojave Desert. It is a never before studied aromatic, ice laden cometary originating meteorite. A rock hound and forest ranger are there when it falls. The rock hound being a meteorite central list subscriber empties out his beer cooler to make room for as many pieces as he can stuff in it. The ranger says Sorry, no can do! Imagine the the loss of data while a response is contemplated: we form a scientific advisory committee, a legislative package to establish a legal framework, approach the Army Corps of Engineers, Park Service, California Dept of Natural Resources, and Environmental Protection Agency for approvals. It will never occur to them while turf-brawling to ask the US Geological Survey or NASA to the table as referees. If you think this is a stretch of the imagination, I did find a fresh meteorite on DoD property, going by the book, I left it lay. Some time later, I contacted the Smithsonian and they told me I had to bring it to them--at my expense. I contacted a nearby University known for its meteorite studies program to solicit their attempts to work government to government and was told not my job. I went back to DoD on whose land it was on and was told I could come show it to them but it couldn't even be picked up for transfer to the Smithsonian. They
