Re: [meteorite-list] Lake Eyre meteorite 'Crown property', researchers required to hand findings over

[Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list]

"rapid progress depends on the intelligent cooperation of the layman,"

The word "layman" has been banned due to Political Correctness. It should be 
"layperson" or not used at all.






- Original Message - 
From: "Carl Agee via Meteorite-list" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>

To: "Galactic Stone & Ironworks" <meteoritem...@gmail.com>
Cc: <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>; "ian macleod" 
<ianmacc...@hotmail.com>

Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lake Eyre meteorite 'Crown property', 
researchers required to hand findings over




Not to bore everyone, but I'll repost thisexcerpt from Lincoln LaPaz's
(founder of IOM)
"Space Nomads: Meteorites in Sky, Field, and Laboratory". It is as
true today as it was when the IOM was founded in 1944! Also relevant
to this discussion I believe...


"Meteorite hunting, unlike pure mathematics, cannot be conducted with
success solely by publicity-shy individuals comfortably seated in
armchairs. Unlike the chemist, who buys his research materials from
catalogs; the bacteriologist, who brews up his cultures at will in a
laboratory; and the botanist, who finds the objects of his
experimentation in conveniently located greenhouse and herbarium, the
meteoriticist is in large measure dependent on the general public for
the specimens with which he works. In meteoritics, as in perhaps no
other science, rapid progress depends on the intelligent cooperation
of the layman, that fortunate individual destined, because of his
ubiquitousness, not only to witness all meteorites yet to fall, but
also, sooner or later, to stumble upon many of those that have already
fallen..."


*
Carl B. Agee
President, Consortium for Materials Properties Research in Earth
Sciences (COMPRES)
Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics
Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences
MSC03 2050
University of New Mexico
Albuquerque NM 87131-1126

Tel: (505) 750-7172
Fax: (505) 277-3577
Email: a...@unm.edu
http://meteorite.unm.edu/people/carl_agee/



On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 12:04 AM, Galactic Stone & Ironworks via
Meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

Hi Ian and List,

Yes, we can all play keyboard king and tell the governments and the
world how we think things should be done. There will never be an ideal
world and compromises must be made to keep everyone relatively happy
(or at least content or apathetic). I agree that nobody's system is
perfect, regardless of national boundaries.

Comparing meteorites to collecting baseball cards is disingenuous.
Rock and mineral collecting is one of the oldest expressions of
geology. Amateur participation in that field has a long established
history that has benefited museums and science over the years. For
some people, meteorites are another rock to collect. For some they are
research material. For some they are national treasures. Ultimately,
who "owns" a meteorite? Do we really want some bureaucrat deciding
that? Isn't this a case where common sense (ha!) should apply?  Or,
call the lawyers and give them a pile of money to figure it out.

I do not see the kind of rampant fraud and chicanery that Ian is
talking about. Sure, any marketplace has crooks (some vendors, some
buyers) and one has to only look at other collectible markets like
autographs or Tiffany glass to see that fraud is "rampant" there was
well. It all comes down to trust. If you don't trust the vendor's
honesty and expertise, then avoid their sales pitches.

"> I constantly see deception, fraud, ridiculous pricing, items stolen 
out of
countries, governments and scientists disrespected, incorrectly 
described

items, dubious provenance, destroyed samples, tiny fragments, endless
provenance hand balling etc etc"


Where are you looking exactly?  eBay?  Craigslist?  Boot sales?  You
can also buy a million types of snake oil at those same venues. It
doesn't mean it's a problem that is endemic in any given field that
sells or buys at that venue. Most known members of this mailing list
are trustworthy. We all know who is and who isn't.  And the people who
are crooks get run out of town pretty quick. There are a few of us who
might be eccentrics, anti-socials, egotists, blowhards, or some other
species of the common jerk, but you know who to trust when it comes to
authenticity. The field sorts itself out and the informed buyer
chooses from well-established and reputable sources.

Nobody likes thieves or scammers and the only issue I have with the
list of negative attributes on your list is "tiny fragments".  As
someone who has owned, traded, and sold his share of tiny fragments,
that is not a negative thing that should be lumped in with thievery.

As I am sure you are aware, most scientific analysis doesn't require
large volumes of material, 

Re: [meteorite-list] Lake Eyre meteorite 'Crown property', researchers required to hand findings over

[Carl Agee via Meteorite-list]

Not to bore everyone, but I'll repost thisexcerpt from Lincoln LaPaz's
(founder of IOM)
"Space Nomads: Meteorites in Sky, Field, and Laboratory". It is as
true today as it was when the IOM was founded in 1944! Also relevant
to this discussion I believe...


"Meteorite hunting, unlike pure mathematics, cannot be conducted with
success solely by publicity-shy individuals comfortably seated in
armchairs. Unlike the chemist, who buys his research materials from
catalogs; the bacteriologist, who brews up his cultures at will in a
laboratory; and the botanist, who finds the objects of his
experimentation in conveniently located greenhouse and herbarium, the
meteoriticist is in large measure dependent on the general public for
the specimens with which he works. In meteoritics, as in perhaps no
other science, rapid progress depends on the intelligent cooperation
of the layman, that fortunate individual destined, because of his
ubiquitousness, not only to witness all meteorites yet to fall, but
also, sooner or later, to stumble upon many of those that have already
fallen..."


*
Carl B. Agee
President, Consortium for Materials Properties Research in Earth
Sciences (COMPRES)
Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics
Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences
MSC03 2050
University of New Mexico
Albuquerque NM 87131-1126

Tel: (505) 750-7172
Fax: (505) 277-3577
Email: a...@unm.edu
http://meteorite.unm.edu/people/carl_agee/



On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 12:04 AM, Galactic Stone & Ironworks via
Meteorite-list  wrote:
> Hi Ian and List,
>
> Yes, we can all play keyboard king and tell the governments and the
> world how we think things should be done. There will never be an ideal
> world and compromises must be made to keep everyone relatively happy
> (or at least content or apathetic). I agree that nobody's system is
> perfect, regardless of national boundaries.
>
> Comparing meteorites to collecting baseball cards is disingenuous.
> Rock and mineral collecting is one of the oldest expressions of
> geology. Amateur participation in that field has a long established
> history that has benefited museums and science over the years. For
> some people, meteorites are another rock to collect. For some they are
> research material. For some they are national treasures. Ultimately,
> who "owns" a meteorite? Do we really want some bureaucrat deciding
> that? Isn't this a case where common sense (ha!) should apply?  Or,
> call the lawyers and give them a pile of money to figure it out.
>
> I do not see the kind of rampant fraud and chicanery that Ian is
> talking about. Sure, any marketplace has crooks (some vendors, some
> buyers) and one has to only look at other collectible markets like
> autographs or Tiffany glass to see that fraud is "rampant" there was
> well. It all comes down to trust. If you don't trust the vendor's
> honesty and expertise, then avoid their sales pitches.
>
> "> I constantly see deception, fraud, ridiculous pricing, items stolen out of
>> countries, governments and scientists disrespected, incorrectly described
>> items, dubious provenance, destroyed samples, tiny fragments, endless
>> provenance hand balling etc etc"
>
> Where are you looking exactly?  eBay?  Craigslist?  Boot sales?  You
> can also buy a million types of snake oil at those same venues. It
> doesn't mean it's a problem that is endemic in any given field that
> sells or buys at that venue. Most known members of this mailing list
> are trustworthy. We all know who is and who isn't.  And the people who
> are crooks get run out of town pretty quick. There are a few of us who
> might be eccentrics, anti-socials, egotists, blowhards, or some other
> species of the common jerk, but you know who to trust when it comes to
> authenticity. The field sorts itself out and the informed buyer
> chooses from well-established and reputable sources.
>
> Nobody likes thieves or scammers and the only issue I have with the
> list of negative attributes on your list is "tiny fragments".  As
> someone who has owned, traded, and sold his share of tiny fragments,
> that is not a negative thing that should be lumped in with thievery.
>
> As I am sure you are aware, most scientific analysis doesn't require
> large volumes of material, especially redundant materials for
> diminishing/no scientific gain. Even a 3mg Bessey Speck is big enough
> for the microprobe and then some.  It's scientific value might be
> extremely limited if that speck represents yet another unremarkable H5
> W4 from the NWA DCA.
>
> What about the samples from scientifically-interesting material like
> NWA 7038?  How much science could be done with a "tiny fragment" of
> that?  Speaking of remarkable meteorites with scientific value, the
> recent Martian NWA 7038 was found by someone who never saw the inside
> of a classroom, traded to another person with no degrees, and sold to
> another guy with no letters after his 

Re: [meteorite-list] Lake Eyre meteorite 'Crown property', researchers required to hand findings over

[Carl Esparza via Meteorite-list]

Dr. Agee, And nobody better than you could make this point. You have proven 
that you think outside the box because I doubt "Black beauty" would have ever 
been classified if not for you. I have been told by umpteen scientists that 
visible round forms inside rocks are not meteorites unless they are chondrules. 
You have certainly earned your wings amongst the other stars in the field. 
Congrats to you. 
Carl


--
Love & Life

 Carl Agee via Meteorite-list  wrote: 
> Not to bore everyone, but I'll repost thisexcerpt from Lincoln LaPaz's
> (founder of IOM)
> "Space Nomads: Meteorites in Sky, Field, and Laboratory". It is as
> true today as it was when the IOM was founded in 1944! Also relevant
> to this discussion I believe...
> 
> 
> "Meteorite hunting, unlike pure mathematics, cannot be conducted with
> success solely by publicity-shy individuals comfortably seated in
> armchairs. Unlike the chemist, who buys his research materials from
> catalogs; the bacteriologist, who brews up his cultures at will in a
> laboratory; and the botanist, who finds the objects of his
> experimentation in conveniently located greenhouse and herbarium, the
> meteoriticist is in large measure dependent on the general public for
> the specimens with which he works. In meteoritics, as in perhaps no
> other science, rapid progress depends on the intelligent cooperation
> of the layman, that fortunate individual destined, because of his
> ubiquitousness, not only to witness all meteorites yet to fall, but
> also, sooner or later, to stumble upon many of those that have already
> fallen..."
> 
> 
> *
> Carl B. Agee
> President, Consortium for Materials Properties Research in Earth
> Sciences (COMPRES)
> Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics
> Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences
> MSC03 2050
> University of New Mexico
> Albuquerque NM 87131-1126
> 
> Tel: (505) 750-7172
> Fax: (505) 277-3577
> Email: a...@unm.edu
> http://meteorite.unm.edu/people/carl_agee/
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 12:04 AM, Galactic Stone & Ironworks via
> Meteorite-list  wrote:
> > Hi Ian and List,
> >
> > Yes, we can all play keyboard king and tell the governments and the
> > world how we think things should be done. There will never be an ideal
> > world and compromises must be made to keep everyone relatively happy
> > (or at least content or apathetic). I agree that nobody's system is
> > perfect, regardless of national boundaries.
> >
> > Comparing meteorites to collecting baseball cards is disingenuous.
> > Rock and mineral collecting is one of the oldest expressions of
> > geology. Amateur participation in that field has a long established
> > history that has benefited museums and science over the years. For
> > some people, meteorites are another rock to collect. For some they are
> > research material. For some they are national treasures. Ultimately,
> > who "owns" a meteorite? Do we really want some bureaucrat deciding
> > that? Isn't this a case where common sense (ha!) should apply?  Or,
> > call the lawyers and give them a pile of money to figure it out.
> >
> > I do not see the kind of rampant fraud and chicanery that Ian is
> > talking about. Sure, any marketplace has crooks (some vendors, some
> > buyers) and one has to only look at other collectible markets like
> > autographs or Tiffany glass to see that fraud is "rampant" there was
> > well. It all comes down to trust. If you don't trust the vendor's
> > honesty and expertise, then avoid their sales pitches.
> >
> > "> I constantly see deception, fraud, ridiculous pricing, items stolen out 
> > of
> >> countries, governments and scientists disrespected, incorrectly described
> >> items, dubious provenance, destroyed samples, tiny fragments, endless
> >> provenance hand balling etc etc"
> >
> > Where are you looking exactly?  eBay?  Craigslist?  Boot sales?  You
> > can also buy a million types of snake oil at those same venues. It
> > doesn't mean it's a problem that is endemic in any given field that
> > sells or buys at that venue. Most known members of this mailing list
> > are trustworthy. We all know who is and who isn't.  And the people who
> > are crooks get run out of town pretty quick. There are a few of us who
> > might be eccentrics, anti-socials, egotists, blowhards, or some other
> > species of the common jerk, but you know who to trust when it comes to
> > authenticity. The field sorts itself out and the informed buyer
> > chooses from well-established and reputable sources.
> >
> > Nobody likes thieves or scammers and the only issue I have with the
> > list of negative attributes on your list is "tiny fragments".  As
> > someone who has owned, traded, and sold his share of tiny fragments,
> > that is not a negative thing that should be lumped in with thievery.
> >
> > As I am sure you are aware, most scientific analysis doesn't require
> > 

Re: [meteorite-list] Lake Eyre meteorite 'Crown property', researchers required to hand findings over

[Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list]

It is to the point where you cannot even communicate with a young bureaucrat 
these days.  I wrote a well-thought out letter and mistakenly used the words 
"mankind" and "forefathers" and was accused of being sexist.  Needless to 
say, I received no intelligent response concerning the content of the letter 
and have given up trying.  Perhaps I should go back to school and relearn 
the English language.



- Original Message - 
From: "Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list" 
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>

To: <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lake Eyre meteorite 'Crown 
property',researchers required to hand findings over




"rapid progress depends on the intelligent cooperation of the layman,"

The word "layman" has been banned due to Political Correctness. It should 
be "layperson" or not used at all.






- Original Message - 
From: "Carl Agee via Meteorite-list" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>

To: "Galactic Stone & Ironworks" <meteoritem...@gmail.com>
Cc: <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>; "ian macleod" 
<ianmacc...@hotmail.com>

Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lake Eyre meteorite 'Crown property', 
researchers required to hand findings over




Not to bore everyone, but I'll repost thisexcerpt from Lincoln LaPaz's
(founder of IOM)
"Space Nomads: Meteorites in Sky, Field, and Laboratory". It is as
true today as it was when the IOM was founded in 1944! Also relevant
to this discussion I believe...


"Meteorite hunting, unlike pure mathematics, cannot be conducted with
success solely by publicity-shy individuals comfortably seated in
armchairs. Unlike the chemist, who buys his research materials from
catalogs; the bacteriologist, who brews up his cultures at will in a
laboratory; and the botanist, who finds the objects of his
experimentation in conveniently located greenhouse and herbarium, the
meteoriticist is in large measure dependent on the general public for
the specimens with which he works. In meteoritics, as in perhaps no
other science, rapid progress depends on the intelligent cooperation
of the layman, that fortunate individual destined, because of his
ubiquitousness, not only to witness all meteorites yet to fall, but
also, sooner or later, to stumble upon many of those that have already
fallen..."


*
Carl B. Agee
President, Consortium for Materials Properties Research in Earth
Sciences (COMPRES)
Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics
Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences
MSC03 2050
University of New Mexico
Albuquerque NM 87131-1126

Tel: (505) 750-7172
Fax: (505) 277-3577
Email: a...@unm.edu
http://meteorite.unm.edu/people/carl_agee/



On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 12:04 AM, Galactic Stone & Ironworks via
Meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

Hi Ian and List,

Yes, we can all play keyboard king and tell the governments and the
world how we think things should be done. There will never be an ideal
world and compromises must be made to keep everyone relatively happy
(or at least content or apathetic). I agree that nobody's system is
perfect, regardless of national boundaries.

Comparing meteorites to collecting baseball cards is disingenuous.
Rock and mineral collecting is one of the oldest expressions of
geology. Amateur participation in that field has a long established
history that has benefited museums and science over the years. For
some people, meteorites are another rock to collect. For some they are
research material. For some they are national treasures. Ultimately,
who "owns" a meteorite? Do we really want some bureaucrat deciding
that? Isn't this a case where common sense (ha!) should apply?  Or,
call the lawyers and give them a pile of money to figure it out.

I do not see the kind of rampant fraud and chicanery that Ian is
talking about. Sure, any marketplace has crooks (some vendors, some
buyers) and one has to only look at other collectible markets like
autographs or Tiffany glass to see that fraud is "rampant" there was
well. It all comes down to trust. If you don't trust the vendor's
honesty and expertise, then avoid their sales pitches.

"> I constantly see deception, fraud, ridiculous pricing, items stolen 
out of
countries, governments and scientists disrespected, incorrectly 
described

items, dubious provenance, destroyed samples, tiny fragments, endless
provenance hand balling etc etc"


Where are you looking exactly?  eBay?  Craigslist?  Boot sales?  You
can also buy a million types of snake oil at those same venues. It
doesn't mean it's a problem that is endemic in any given field that
sells or buys at that venue. Most known members of this mailing list
are trustworthy. W

[meteorite-list] Lake Eyre meteorite 'Crown property', researchers required to hand findings over

[Tommy via Meteorite-list]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-15/lake-eyre-meteorite-'crown-property'/7091562

Regards!

Tom
__

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Re: [meteorite-list] Lake Eyre meteorite 'Crown property', researchers required to hand findings over

[Robert Verish via Meteorite-list]

Hey Galactic Stone, why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel?  ;-)
Did this line in that article hit you too close to home:

"Professor Bland said he suspects there are amateur astronomers who are 
frustrated by legislation requiring them to hand back their discoveries from 
outer space."

I find the phrase "hand back" interesting.  If you accept that this meteorite 
was "stolen from the Queen", then 
the only legal recourse for Professor Bland is for him to take that meteorite 
back out to the Queen's Outback and 
shove it back into that muddy hole from which it was purloined.  If you want it 
so bad, you know where it is?  

I think this would be a great opportunity for a group discussion comparing the 
Queen's "policies" relating to how 
meteorite finds are handled in Australia vs. Canada vs. England vs. U.S. public 
lands. 
Personally, I vote that the U.S. adopt the "policy" version that the Canadian's 
enforce.  It's proven that it works! 

Galactic Stone is right.  It's time to refute the insane rhetoric that a 
recently fallen meteorite is an "artifact".  Insanity! 
   


On Fri, 1/15/16, Galactic Stone & Ironworks via Meteorite-list 
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lake Eyre meteorite 'Crown property', 
researchers required to hand findings over
 To: "Tommy" <tomm...@hvc.rr.com>
 Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
 Date: Friday, January 15, 2016, 7:50 AM
 
 More hogwash.  The inbox is full of it this morning.
 
 "Scientific value" - "sitting on the mantlepiece" - "black market"
 
 This kind of piece belongs in the National Enquirer.
 
 Dr. Grguric should get together and drink kool-aid with Lindfors
 and
 the new World Record Martian Loon. 
 They all have the same level of intelligence apparently.
 
 
 
 On 1/15/16, Tommy via
 Meteorite-list
 <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
 wrote:
 > http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-15/lake-eyre-meteorite-'crown-property'/7091562
 >
 > Regards!
 >
 > Tom
 >
 __
__

Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the 
Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
Meteorite-list mailing list
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Re: [meteorite-list] Lake Eyre meteorite 'Crown property', researchers required to hand findings over

[Galactic Stone & Ironworks via Meteorite-list]

More hogwash.  The inbox is full of it this morning.

"Scientific value" - "sitting on the mantlepiece" - "black market"

This kind of piece belongs in the National Enquirer.

Dr. Grguric should get together and drink kool-aid with Lindfors and
the new World Record Martian Loon.  They all have the same level of
intelligence apparently.



On 1/15/16, Tommy via Meteorite-list
 wrote:
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-15/lake-eyre-meteorite-'crown-property'/7091562
>
> Regards!
>
> Tom
> __
>
> Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the
> Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
> https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>


-- 
-
Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com
Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone
Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone
-
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Re: [meteorite-list] Lake Eyre meteorite 'Crown property', researchers required to hand findings over

[Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list]

The only difference between the U.S. and Australia's restrictive meteorite 
laws is that meteorites belong to the Crown in one country and the federal 
and now state governments in another.  It will not be long before finds on 
private land here in the U.S. are affected.   Public lands are being put off 
limits at an alarming rate.  The more press, the more interest there is in 
overregulated every aspect of our lives.  The old timer, treasure hunters 
had it correct about keeping your mouth shut about such things.  Shameless 
self-promotion of a few will only lead to more restrictions for everybody 
else.


Adam




- Original Message - 
From: "Tommy via Meteorite-list" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>

To: <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 5:12 AM
Subject: [meteorite-list] Lake Eyre meteorite 'Crown property', researchers 
required to hand findings over




http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-15/lake-eyre-meteorite-'crown-property'/7091562

Regards!

Tom
__

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Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com

Meteorite-list mailing list
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Re: [meteorite-list] Lake Eyre meteorite 'Crown property', researchers required to hand findings over

[Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list]

I think there should be no regulations whatsoever on meteorite recoveries 
from public land.  The old system of 20% or 20 grams has worked fine for 
decades and it is not a law.  Australia used to be the number one producer 
of meteorites during the 80's.  Now look where they are.


The U.S. government was required by our forefathers to issue land patents to 
mining claims for over a century.  They no longer honor this use of public 
land and have not issued patents since the 1990s.  Now meteorite recoveries 
are being regulated too.  They are even placing restrictions on private land 
owners when it comes to recovering gold and other minerals.  It will not be 
long that meteorites "fall" into this bureaucratic trap.I am only 
allowed to use 1,800 gallons of water a day to process gold or else to go to 
the dry wash system that prospectors hate and are only allowed to use on 
public claims in the area.  As a private land owner, I am not even allowed 
to use pond water to process gold without a class B permit and file water 
use reports even though this water would simply evaporate.  I will be forced 
to use a recirculation type system limiting gold production to less than 20 
ounces a day unless I am fortunate enough to find some big nuggets with a 
Minelab metal detector like some old timers are using these days.  The only 
thing that makes it worth while is that my property is located in the middle 
of the hottest placer nugget producing area in the state, just meters away 
from the famous Poker Brown gold mine.  Placer nuggets weighing several 
pounds have been found nearby and were only discovered since the 1980s. 
These large nuggets are rarely reported since it could result in more 
restrictions.  A straw buyer for the Chinese wants to survey my property. 
They claimed my property is not fenced therefore they can take samples due 
to open range laws.  I told them to stay the hell off my property.   I have 
some old-timers keeping any eye out to make sure somebody doesn't mistake my 
property for public land which is all claimed up in the area.   I may have 
to install an electric fence since the government is doing nothing to 
protect private landowners rights.  They are too busy wasting time 
regulating public lands.


Good luck hunting while you still can,





- Original Message - 
From: "Robert Verish via Meteorite-list" 
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>

To: "Galactic Stone & Ironworks" <meteoritem...@gmail.com>
Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lake Eyre meteorite 'Crown property', 
researchers required to hand findings over




Hey Galactic Stone, why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel? ;-)
Did this line in that article hit you too close to home:

"Professor Bland said he suspects there are amateur astronomers who are
frustrated by legislation requiring them to hand back their discoveries 
from outer space."


I find the phrase "hand back" interesting. If you accept that this 
meteorite was "stolen from the Queen", then
the only legal recourse for Professor Bland is for him to take that 
meteorite back out to the Queen's Outback and
shove it back into that muddy hole from which it was purloined. If you 
want it so bad, you know where it is?


I think this would be a great opportunity for a group discussion comparing 
the Queen's "policies" relating to how
meteorite finds are handled in Australia vs. Canada vs. England vs. U.S. 
public lands.
Personally, I vote that the U.S. adopt the "policy" version that the 
Canadian's enforce. It's proven that it works!


Galactic Stone is right. It's time to refute the insane rhetoric that a 
recently fallen meteorite is an "artifact". Insanity!




On Fri, 1/15/16, Galactic Stone & Ironworks via Meteorite-list 
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:


Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lake Eyre meteorite 'Crown property', 
researchers required to hand findings over

To: "Tommy" <tomm...@hvc.rr.com>
Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Friday, January 15, 2016, 7:50 AM

More hogwash. The inbox is full of it this morning.

"Scientific value" - "sitting on the mantlepiece" - "black market"

This kind of piece belongs in the National Enquirer.

Dr. Grguric should get together and drink kool-aid with Lindfors
and
the new World Record Martian Loon.
They all have the same level of intelligence apparently.



On 1/15/16, Tommy via
Meteorite-list
<meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
wrote:
> 
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-15/lake-eyre-meteorite-'crown-property'/7091562
>
> Regards!
>
> Tom
>
__

Re: [meteorite-list] Lake Eyre meteorite 'Crown property', researchers required to hand findings over

[Galactic Stone & Ironworks via Meteorite-list]

Hi Bob and List,

Bingo!  (or should I say, Bingol!) - Look, I have the utmost respect
for meteorite hunters who go out into the field under harsh conditions
(at best) and recover these space treasures. Whether they work for
ANSMET, the Crown, or the Meteorite List - it takes determination,
money, knowledge, and skill to hunt for meteorites. Governments rarely
have those attributes, and that is why the vast majority of meteorites
would rot away in the field unrecovered, if not for private hunters.
And, we all know that many private hunters are very generous with
their finds and donate large amounts of material to science - beyond
the 20/20 classification requirement.

But, take a look at the numbers in the Bulletin. How many important
finds have come out of Australia since their stranglehold laws
starting being enforced?  The numbers have plummeted.  Look at how
many scientifically-important finds have come out of Morocco!  Those
weren't found by ANSMET, the Crown, or the Moroccan government.

Dr. Grguric is apparently another example of academic elitism. He
looks down his nose at the great unwashed Men of No Letters. In his
world, every weathered H5 chondrite should be the exclusive property
of a museum or institution. He fails to see the difference between
those meteorites that have been almost exhausted of scientific value,
and truly important finds like Black Beauty, ungrouped, and anomalous
meteorites. Such attitudes are self-defeating and myopic to the
extreme.

One cannot blame the media for garbage like this. Your average
"journalist" nowadays is an intern working for free while trying to
finish their communications degree. When a Man of Letters gives them a
juicy (click-bait) soundbite, they make no attempt to fact-check it or
seek the other point of view. They just print whatever falls out of
the source's mouth, and if they don't get that soundbite, they will
invent one by twisting the quote out of context.  The real problem is
intellectual snobbery. Maybe the good doctor has some letters behind
his name, but my dog has more common sense.

Best regards and Happy Huntings,

MikeG


-- 
-
Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com
Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone
Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone
-




On 1/15/16, Robert Verish <bolidecha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hey Galactic Stone, why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel?  ;-)
> Did this line in that article hit you too close to home:
>
> "Professor Bland said he suspects there are amateur astronomers who are
> frustrated by legislation requiring them to hand back their discoveries from
> outer space."
>
> I find the phrase "hand back" interesting.  If you accept that this
> meteorite was "stolen from the Queen", then
> the only legal recourse for Professor Bland is for him to take that
> meteorite back out to the Queen's Outback and
> shove it back into that muddy hole from which it was purloined.  If you want
> it so bad, you know where it is?
>
> I think this would be a great opportunity for a group discussion comparing
> the Queen's "policies" relating to how
> meteorite finds are handled in Australia vs. Canada vs. England vs. U.S.
> public lands.
> Personally, I vote that the U.S. adopt the "policy" version that the
> Canadian's enforce.  It's proven that it works!
>
> Galactic Stone is right.  It's time to refute the insane rhetoric that a
> recently fallen meteorite is an "artifact".  Insanity!
>
>
> --------
> On Fri, 1/15/16, Galactic Stone & Ironworks via Meteorite-list
> <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>
>  Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lake Eyre meteorite 'Crown property',
> researchers required to hand findings over
>  To: "Tommy" <tomm...@hvc.rr.com>
>  Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
>  Date: Friday, January 15, 2016, 7:50 AM
>
>  More hogwash.  The inbox is full of it this morning.
>
>  "Scientific value" - "sitting on the mantlepiece" - "black market"
>
>  This kind of piece belongs in the National Enquirer.
>
>  Dr. Grguric should get together and drink kool-aid with Lindfors
>  and
>  the new World Record Martian Loon.
>  They all have the same level of intelligence apparently.
>
>
>
>  On 1/15/16, Tommy via
>  Meteorite-list
>  <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
>  wrote:
>  >
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-15/lake-eyre-meteorite-'crown-property'/7091562
>  >
>  > Regards!
>  >
>  > Tom
>  >
>  __
>
__

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Re: [meteorite-list] Lake Eyre meteorite 'Crown property', researchers required to hand findings over

[ian macleod via Meteorite-list]

Hi List, we can bang on about laws all day (which actually vary here in 
Australia between states) and also point fingers at scientists and museum staff 
we don't know. At the end of the day the law is the law...Deal with it


There is no elitism going on, these guys are nice enough they just have to make 
a point and warning in respect to laws. 


Bob is right the Canadian model is a better system. The USA has too much 
freedom that is abused, Australia the opposite occurs


The idea meteorites are not found or reported in Australia is far from 
accurate. 


See the USA enjoys a 'few' remaining labs that processing many kilograms of 
potentially stolen property out of NWA, this has given the appearance of very 
active work, and that something new is happening..respectfully I beg to 
differ

We now have 50,000 meteorites and only 6 or so that we have orbit data for. The 
orbit ones were all found by camera networks NOT guys all over Africa


So when it comes to collecting the next find like baseball cards or wanting to 
see meteoritics evolve.I chose evolution


I constantly see deception, fraud, ridiculous pricing, items stolen out of 
countries, governments and scientists disrespected, incorrectly described 
items, dubious provenance, destroyed samples, tiny fragments, endless 
provenance hand balling etc etc


and this is coming from many IMCA and non IMCA sellers and hunters


So sorry lads Im sticking with the scientists on this one and the with few 
people in the private collecting meteorite community I trust


Ian
__

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Re: [meteorite-list] Lake Eyre meteorite 'Crown property', researchers required to hand findings over

[Galactic Stone & Ironworks via Meteorite-list]

Hi Ian and List,

Yes, we can all play keyboard king and tell the governments and the
world how we think things should be done. There will never be an ideal
world and compromises must be made to keep everyone relatively happy
(or at least content or apathetic). I agree that nobody's system is
perfect, regardless of national boundaries.

Comparing meteorites to collecting baseball cards is disingenuous.
Rock and mineral collecting is one of the oldest expressions of
geology. Amateur participation in that field has a long established
history that has benefited museums and science over the years. For
some people, meteorites are another rock to collect. For some they are
research material. For some they are national treasures. Ultimately,
who "owns" a meteorite? Do we really want some bureaucrat deciding
that? Isn't this a case where common sense (ha!) should apply?  Or,
call the lawyers and give them a pile of money to figure it out.

I do not see the kind of rampant fraud and chicanery that Ian is
talking about. Sure, any marketplace has crooks (some vendors, some
buyers) and one has to only look at other collectible markets like
autographs or Tiffany glass to see that fraud is "rampant" there was
well. It all comes down to trust. If you don't trust the vendor's
honesty and expertise, then avoid their sales pitches.

"> I constantly see deception, fraud, ridiculous pricing, items stolen out of
> countries, governments and scientists disrespected, incorrectly described
> items, dubious provenance, destroyed samples, tiny fragments, endless
> provenance hand balling etc etc"

Where are you looking exactly?  eBay?  Craigslist?  Boot sales?  You
can also buy a million types of snake oil at those same venues. It
doesn't mean it's a problem that is endemic in any given field that
sells or buys at that venue. Most known members of this mailing list
are trustworthy. We all know who is and who isn't.  And the people who
are crooks get run out of town pretty quick. There are a few of us who
might be eccentrics, anti-socials, egotists, blowhards, or some other
species of the common jerk, but you know who to trust when it comes to
authenticity. The field sorts itself out and the informed buyer
chooses from well-established and reputable sources.

Nobody likes thieves or scammers and the only issue I have with the
list of negative attributes on your list is "tiny fragments".  As
someone who has owned, traded, and sold his share of tiny fragments,
that is not a negative thing that should be lumped in with thievery.

As I am sure you are aware, most scientific analysis doesn't require
large volumes of material, especially redundant materials for
diminishing/no scientific gain. Even a 3mg Bessey Speck is big enough
for the microprobe and then some.  It's scientific value might be
extremely limited if that speck represents yet another unremarkable H5
W4 from the NWA DCA.

What about the samples from scientifically-interesting material like
NWA 7038?  How much science could be done with a "tiny fragment" of
that?  Speaking of remarkable meteorites with scientific value, the
recent Martian NWA 7038 was found by someone who never saw the inside
of a classroom, traded to another person with no degrees, and sold to
another guy with no letters after his name. Middle level dealers
bought and sold some pieces after it trickled down into the market,
and now people are paying $20-$50 for a crumb weighing less than 20mg.
If we had waited on a juried collection of bureaucrat-approved dandies
to make that recovery, "Black Beauty" would be buried in the desert
until all of it's value to science was eroded to nothing.

Now, not much of that particular meteorite (or it's pairings) is on
the collector market waiting to be bought like a baseball card. But, a
"tiny fragment" can cost a day's work for some people, and does that
make it less valuable or less ethical? Should only well-heeled (or
connected) people of letters be allowed to collect meteorites? Should
I buy a tiny fragment of something for my collection (or research), or
should we budget-limited souls take our unwashed minds back to the
fleamarket and rummage for Beanie Babies and old postcards?

If somebody is breaking the law to hunt (or buy,trade,sell,collect)
meteorites, then there are obviously laws already in place against
fraud and theft that need to be enforced. If somebody in the IMCA is
crooked, call them out and report them to the board. If somebody on
this List is crooked, call them out and let them answer for their
shady dealings.

But, let's not act like some government or board of academics should
be the judge and jury of who gets to keep a meteorite found on private
property, or to decide who the owner of said meteorite should be able
to give/sell/trade it to for everyone's mutual satisfaction.

I didn't mean to offend the hard working and ethical hunters in
Australia who abide by the rules and make recoveries that are
available to science. When I called out