Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite: Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers
My god Greg, are you trying hard to burn whatever bridges you have left? I happen to know the people at the Smithsonian pretty well, several trips there over the last 10 years to view the collection and do exchanges with the museum, our NATIONAL COLLECTION of meteorites. I hardly think the Smithsonian had anything to do with a smear campaign, in fact, I think they handled the odd situation perfectly, they put the stone in safe storage and waited till the legal issues were settled. There was no smear campaign, merely one side presenting it's case and the other theirs. One side lost. Greg, I have been accused of lacking tact at times:), but this is bad. I would suggest an apology to the scientists at the Smithsonian is in order. Please do it, as a dealer and representative of the collecting private community, this is an insult to a fine institution and those who work to unlock the secrets of meteorites, and it is an abolute lie! I saw all the press releases and the Smithsonian NEVER inserted themselves into the argument once it began. I am very happy the Lorton meteorite ended up where it should have, in a museum for millions of people to see every year. Michael Farmer For the record... The landowners dropped the case because it was a PR nightmare for them because the Doctors and the Smithsonian pulled bogus and shameful tactics using the media and the Haitian Earthquake Crisis against the landowners and merely appealed to the public's emotion on the issue simply making them out to be the bad guys in the media if they continued to fight it. Oh what bad people these greedy landowners must be to try to take away the meteorite from the public, and the money from those in need in Haiti. Oh my... They didn't drop the case because the doctors were right. They dropped it because of the negative press and smear campaign played out in the media by the Doctors and the Smithsonian. Simple as that. This Case was never decided on legally in a court. Therefore the issue is still open and *unresolved* with regard to the legal ownership of meteorites falling on private property. Period. Regards, Eric On 7/15/2011 7:41 PM, JoshuaTreeMuseum wrote: You find it , it's yours!: http://www.wm.edu/news/stories/2011/william--mary-law-school-students-learn-about-property-law,-with-an-asteroid-twist-123.php Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite: Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers
Michael: I agree as I personally know someone who works there, and each time I return to the DC area I visit and get to see the specimens there; last year I saw and held Lorton. It should be on display for everyone to see, as it is one of the very rare falls in the vicinity of DC. And note: the landlord did decide to drop the case. Greg S Sent from my iPhone On Jul 16, 2011, at 4:24 PM, Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com wrote: My god Greg, are you trying hard to burn whatever bridges you have left? I happen to know the people at the Smithsonian pretty well, several trips there over the last 10 years to view the collection and do exchanges with the museum, our NATIONAL COLLECTION of meteorites. I hardly think the Smithsonian had anything to do with a smear campaign, in fact, I think they handled the odd situation perfectly, they put the stone in safe storage and waited till the legal issues were settled. There was no smear campaign, merely one side presenting it's case and the other theirs. One side lost. Greg, I have been accused of lacking tact at times:), but this is bad. I would suggest an apology to the scientists at the Smithsonian is in order. Please do it, as a dealer and representative of the collecting private community, this is an insult to a fine institution and those who work to unlock the secrets of meteorites, and it is an abolute lie! I saw all the press releases and the Smithsonian NEVER inserted themselves into the argument once it began. I am very happy the Lorton meteorite ended up where it should have, in a museum for millions of people to see every year. Michael Farmer For the record... The landowners dropped the case because it was a PR nightmare for them because the Doctors and the Smithsonian pulled bogus and shameful tactics using the media and the Haitian Earthquake Crisis against the landowners and merely appealed to the public's emotion on the issue simply making them out to be the bad guys in the media if they continued to fight it. Oh what bad people these greedy landowners must be to try to take away the meteorite from the public, and the money from those in need in Haiti. Oh my... They didn't drop the case because the doctors were right. They dropped it because of the negative press and smear campaign played out in the media by the Doctors and the Smithsonian. Simple as that. This Case was never decided on legally in a court. Therefore the issue is still open and *unresolved* with regard to the legal ownership of meteorites falling on private property. Period. Regards, Eric On 7/15/2011 7:41 PM, JoshuaTreeMuseum wrote: You find it , it's yours!: http://www.wm.edu/news/stories/2011/william--mary-law-school-students-learn-about-property-law,-with-an-asteroid-twist-123.php Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite: Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers
I concur with both of you. Dr Tim McCoy is an honorable man and a dedicated researcher who has worked with and collaborated on many papers with scientists from my institute. I don't want to comment on the allegations made regarding the so-called smear campaign. I do want to say that as an American I am very proud of our Smithsonian Institution National Museum of Natural History, and am glad the Lorton meteorite resides there. gary On Jul 17, 2011, at 8:40 AM, Greg Stanley wrote: Michael: I agree as I personally know someone who works there, and each time I return to the DC area I visit and get to see the specimens there; last year I saw and held Lorton. It should be on display for everyone to see, as it is one of the very rare falls in the vicinity of DC. And note: the landlord did decide to drop the case. Greg S Sent from my iPhone On Jul 16, 2011, at 4:24 PM, Michael Farmer m...@meteoriteguy.com wrote: My god Greg, are you trying hard to burn whatever bridges you have left? I happen to know the people at the Smithsonian pretty well, several trips there over the last 10 years to view the collection and do exchanges with the museum, our NATIONAL COLLECTION of meteorites. I hardly think the Smithsonian had anything to do with a smear campaign, in fact, I think they handled the odd situation perfectly, they put the stone in safe storage and waited till the legal issues were settled. There was no smear campaign, merely one side presenting it's case and the other theirs. One side lost. Greg, I have been accused of lacking tact at times:), but this is bad. I would suggest an apology to the scientists at the Smithsonian is in order. Please do it, as a dealer and representative of the collecting private community, this is an insult to a fine institution and those who work to unlock the secrets of meteorites, and it is an abolute lie! I saw all the press releases and the Smithsonian NEVER inserted themselves into the argument once it began. I am very happy the Lorton meteorite ended up where it should have, in a museum for millions of people to see every year. Michael Farmer For the record... The landowners dropped the case because it was a PR nightmare for them because the Doctors and the Smithsonian pulled bogus and shameful tactics using the media and the Haitian Earthquake Crisis against the landowners and merely appealed to the public's emotion on the issue simply making them out to be the bad guys in the media if they continued to fight it. Oh what bad people these greedy landowners must be to try to take away the meteorite from the public, and the money from those in need in Haiti. Oh my... They didn't drop the case because the doctors were right. They dropped it because of the negative press and smear campaign played out in the media by the Doctors and the Smithsonian. Simple as that. This Case was never decided on legally in a court. Therefore the issue is still open and *unresolved* with regard to the legal ownership of meteorites falling on private property. Period. Regards, Eric On 7/15/2011 7:41 PM, JoshuaTreeMuseum wrote: You find it , it's yours!: http://www.wm.edu/news/stories/2011/william--mary-law-school-students-learn-about-property-law,-with-an-asteroid-twist-123.php Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Gary Fujihara Big Kahuna Meteorites (IMCA#1693) 105 Puhili Place, Hilo, Hawai'i 96720 http://bigkahuna-meteorites.com/ http://shop.ebay.com/fujmon/m.html (808) 640-9161 __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite: Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers
Hi Mike, I think you meant to address your reply to Eric, not one of us 'Greg's'. :) You referred to Greg twice in your post, surely an innocent slip of the keyboard. Best Regards, Greg Hupe -Original Message- From: Michael Farmer Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 7:24 PM To: Eric Wichman Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite: Finders Keepers,Losers Weepers My god Greg, are you trying hard to burn whatever bridges you have left? I happen to know the people at the Smithsonian pretty well, several trips there over the last 10 years to view the collection and do exchanges with the museum, our NATIONAL COLLECTION of meteorites. I hardly think the Smithsonian had anything to do with a smear campaign, in fact, I think they handled the odd situation perfectly, they put the stone in safe storage and waited till the legal issues were settled. There was no smear campaign, merely one side presenting it's case and the other theirs. One side lost. Greg, I have been accused of lacking tact at times:), but this is bad. I would suggest an apology to the scientists at the Smithsonian is in order. Please do it, as a dealer and representative of the collecting private community, this is an insult to a fine institution and those who work to unlock the secrets of meteorites, and it is an abolute lie! I saw all the press releases and the Smithsonian NEVER inserted themselves into the argument once it began. I am very happy the Lorton meteorite ended up where it should have, in a museum for millions of people to see every year. Michael Farmer For the record... The landowners dropped the case because it was a PR nightmare for them because the Doctors and the Smithsonian pulled bogus and shameful tactics using the media and the Haitian Earthquake Crisis against the landowners and merely appealed to the public's emotion on the issue simply making them out to be the bad guys in the media if they continued to fight it. Oh what bad people these greedy landowners must be to try to take away the meteorite from the public, and the money from those in need in Haiti. Oh my... They didn't drop the case because the doctors were right. They dropped it because of the negative press and smear campaign played out in the media by the Doctors and the Smithsonian. Simple as that. This Case was never decided on legally in a court. Therefore the issue is still open and *unresolved* with regard to the legal ownership of meteorites falling on private property. Period. Regards, Eric On 7/15/2011 7:41 PM, JoshuaTreeMuseum wrote: You find it , it's yours!: http://www.wm.edu/news/stories/2011/william--mary-law-school-students-learn-about-property-law,-with-an-asteroid-twist-123.php Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite: Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers
Yeah typo. Michael Sent from my iPhone On Jul 17, 2011, at 11:59 AM, Greg Hupé gmh...@centurylink.net wrote: Hi Mike, I think you meant to address your reply to Eric, not one of us 'Greg's'. :) You referred to Greg twice in your post, surely an innocent slip of the keyboard. Best Regards, Greg Hupe -Original Message- From: Michael Farmer Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 7:24 PM To: Eric Wichman Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite: Finders Keepers,Losers Weepers My god Greg, are you trying hard to burn whatever bridges you have left? I happen to know the people at the Smithsonian pretty well, several trips there over the last 10 years to view the collection and do exchanges with the museum, our NATIONAL COLLECTION of meteorites. I hardly think the Smithsonian had anything to do with a smear campaign, in fact, I think they handled the odd situation perfectly, they put the stone in safe storage and waited till the legal issues were settled. There was no smear campaign, merely one side presenting it's case and the other theirs. One side lost. Greg, I have been accused of lacking tact at times:), but this is bad. I would suggest an apology to the scientists at the Smithsonian is in order. Please do it, as a dealer and representative of the collecting private community, this is an insult to a fine institution and those who work to unlock the secrets of meteorites, and it is an abolute lie! I saw all the press releases and the Smithsonian NEVER inserted themselves into the argument once it began. I am very happy the Lorton meteorite ended up where it should have, in a museum for millions of people to see every year. Michael Farmer For the record... The landowners dropped the case because it was a PR nightmare for them because the Doctors and the Smithsonian pulled bogus and shameful tactics using the media and the Haitian Earthquake Crisis against the landowners and merely appealed to the public's emotion on the issue simply making them out to be the bad guys in the media if they continued to fight it. Oh what bad people these greedy landowners must be to try to take away the meteorite from the public, and the money from those in need in Haiti. Oh my... They didn't drop the case because the doctors were right. They dropped it because of the negative press and smear campaign played out in the media by the Doctors and the Smithsonian. Simple as that. This Case was never decided on legally in a court. Therefore the issue is still open and *unresolved* with regard to the legal ownership of meteorites falling on private property. Period. Regards, Eric On 7/15/2011 7:41 PM, JoshuaTreeMuseum wrote: You find it , it's yours!: http://www.wm.edu/news/stories/2011/william--mary-law-school-students-learn-about-property-law,-with-an-asteroid-twist-123.php Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite: Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers
For the record... The landowners dropped the case because it was a PR nightmare for them because the Doctors and the Smithsonian pulled bogus and shameful tactics using the media and the Haitian Earthquake Crisis against the landowners and merely appealed to the public's emotion on the issue simply making them out to be the bad guys in the media if they continued to fight it. Oh what bad people these greedy landowners must be to try to take away the meteorite from the public, and the money from those in need in Haiti. Oh my... They didn't drop the case because the doctors were right. They dropped it because of the negative press and smear campaign played out in the media by the Doctors and the Smithsonian. Simple as that. This Case was never decided on legally in a court. Therefore the issue is still open and *unresolved* with regard to the legal ownership of meteorites falling on private property. Period. Regards, Eric On 7/15/2011 7:41 PM, JoshuaTreeMuseum wrote: You find it , it's yours!: http://www.wm.edu/news/stories/2011/william--mary-law-school-students-learn-about-property-law,-with-an-asteroid-twist-123.php Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite: Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers
Actuall the landowners were real jerks. They were as greedy as I have ever seen people. They threatened to sue Robert over the roof hole he salvaged from being lost forever. it is now back with them and lost forever unless they get lots of money. Michael Farmer Sent from my iPhone On Jul 15, 2011, at 8:28 PM, Eric Wichman e...@meteoritesusa.com wrote: For the record... The landowners dropped the case because it was a PR nightmare for them because the Doctors and the Smithsonian pulled bogus and shameful tactics using the media and the Haitian Earthquake Crisis against the landowners and merely appealed to the public's emotion on the issue simply making them out to be the bad guys in the media if they continued to fight it. Oh what bad people these greedy landowners must be to try to take away the meteorite from the public, and the money from those in need in Haiti. Oh my... They didn't drop the case because the doctors were right. They dropped it because of the negative press and smear campaign played out in the media by the Doctors and the Smithsonian. Simple as that. This Case was never decided on legally in a court. Therefore the issue is still open and *unresolved* with regard to the legal ownership of meteorites falling on private property. Period. Regards, Eric On 7/15/2011 7:41 PM, JoshuaTreeMuseum wrote: You find it , it's yours!: http://www.wm.edu/news/stories/2011/william--mary-law-school-students-learn-about-property-law,-with-an-asteroid-twist-123.php Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite: Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers
You find it , it's yours!: http://www.wm.edu/news/stories/2011/william--mary-law-school-students-learn-about-property-law,-with-an-asteroid-twist-123.php Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite: Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers
They didn't find it, it found them. And, even though it was unprecedented in Virginia, Sylacauga comes to mind. The meteorite was returned to the Hodgeses. Does anyone know of a similar case or cases that went the other way? In favor of the landlord or a third party? From: joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 22:41:46 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite: Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers You find it , it's yours!: http://www.wm.edu/news/stories/2011/william--mary-law-school-students-learn-about-property-law,-with-an-asteroid-twist-123.php Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite: Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers
. The case was appealed to the Supreme Court of Iowa but before this tribunal had rendered a decision the University of Minnesota had secured the meteorite through a second writ or replevin. In October, 1892, the Supreme Court of Iowa sustained the finding of the lower court, and suit was brought against the University of Minnesota on its replevin bond. The jury assessed the value of the meteorite at nearly five times the original value fixed by the court, which sum was cheerfully paid, and the stone was deposited in the museum of the University where it has remained to this day. -source: Iowa Recorder; Greene, Butler co. Iowa; July 1929 The Estherville meteorite is a case where a third party took the ownership of the meteorite from the owners... The lively interest manifest at Estherville led the farm boys to realize the commercial value of the meteorite. Loading it into a wagon, they set out across Minnesota, displaying a large sign that read: “ I am the Heavenly Meteor. I arrived May 10th at 5 o‟clock. My weight is 437 pounds. from whence I came nobody knows, but I am enroute for Chicago!” Hearing that their ownership was being questioned, the boys returned to Estherville, wrapped their treasure in quilts and buried it in Osborn‟s cornfield. Later, feeling secure in their ownership, they moved it to the home of one of the group, Chester Rewey. Charles N Birge, an attorney from Keokuk, through Lee‟s temporary default in payment on his farm purchased from the railroad company, made claim to the land. On the strength of this, he obtained a writ of attachment on the meteorite, which permitted him to take it away from Rewey‟s farm. Later he sold it to the British Museum for a reputedly large sum. In the following October, the Lee‟s were deeded their farm by Birge. source:http://estherville.org/The%20Estherville%20Meteorite.pdf Shawn Alan IMCA 1633 eBaystore http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite: Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers bill kies parkforestmet at hotmail.com Fri Jul 15 23:29:22 EDT 2011 Previous message: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite: Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] They didn't find it, it found them. And, even though it was unprecedented in Virginia, Sylacauga comes to mind. The meteorite was returned to the Hodgeses. Does anyone know of a similar case or cases that went the other way? In favor of the landlord or a third party? From: joshuatreemuseum at embarqmail.com To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 22:41:46 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite: Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers You find it , it's yours!: http://www.wm.edu/news/stories/2011/william--mary-law-school-students-learn-about-property-law,-with-an-asteroid-twist-123.php Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Previous message: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite: Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] More information about the Meteorite-list mailing list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite: Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers
Litigation was also a factor in Sylacauga: http://www.encyclopediaofalabama.org/face/Article.jsp?id=h-1280 Television, radio and newspaper excitement lasted for weeks, highlighted by a very public dispute between the Hodges and Birdie Guy, who owned the home in which the Hodges lived as renters. Facing repair expenses for the damaged house, Guy was advised by her attorney that legal precedent had established that meteorites were the property of the landowner, and she sued for possession of the rock. The Hodges threatened to counter- sue for Ann's injuries, and the outraged public sided with her. Before it went to trial, cooler heads prevailed and after a modest private settlement, Guy gave up her claim on the meteorite to the Hodges... Hewlett Hodges believed that the couple stood to make a fortune from the incident. He refused what he considered an inadequate offer for the meteorite from the Smithsonian Institution, claiming he had received other offers as high as $5,500. In the end, Ann Hodges, not knowing how to bargain with the media, earned at most only a few hundred dollars from the incident that had made her famous. By 1956, the bad publicity surrounding the lawsuit ended the monetary offers, and she donated the meteorite to the Alabama Museum of Natural History, where it remains. Probably the only major figure in the entire Sylacauga meteorite story to claim a satisfactory ending was Julius K. McKinney, a farmer who lived near the Hodges. On December 1, 1954, the day after Ann Hodges was struck, he discovered a second fragment of the meteorite in the middle of a dirt road. McKinney was able to sell his rock to the Smithsonian for enough to purchase a small farm and a used car. This fragment is on display at the Smithsonian Institution, but the label strangely does not acknowledge its more famous Alabama sibling. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: bill kies parkforest...@hotmail.com To: joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, July 15, 2011 10:29 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite: Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers They didn't find it, it found them. And, even though it was unprecedented in Virginia, Sylacauga comes to mind. The meteorite was returned to the Hodgeses. Does anyone know of a similar case or cases that went the other way? In favor of the landlord or a third party? From: joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 22:41:46 -0400 Subject: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite: Finders Keepers, Losers Weepers You find it , it's yours!: http://www.wm.edu/news/stories/2011/william--mary-law-school-students-learn-about-property-law,-with-an-asteroid-twist-123.php Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite - SI
List: Found this too. Greg S http://mineralsciences.si.edu/collections/lorton.htm __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite
The landlords got outlawyered: http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/whatever-happened-to-the-lorton-meteorite-/2011/03/04/AB14tMq_story.html By Neely Tucker, Sunday, March 20, 11:42 AM When last we heard, Everybody's Favorite Meteorite was locked up in legal limbo. The oblong little rock from outer space lighted up the late afternoon sky across Washington on Jan. 18, 2010, and rocketed into a doctors' office in Lorton. Moving at a leisurely 200 mph, it crashed into examination room No. 2 in the Williamsburg Square Family Practice, even though it did not have an appointment. The startled (but unhurt) doctors, Marc Gallini and Frank Ciampi, donated it to the Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History, which houses the world's largest collection of meteorites. But then their landlords said not so fast: The 2-by-3-inch visitor from the asteroid belt was estimated to be worth at least $50,000 on the earth-bound meteorite market, in part because of its dramatic and well-documented entrance. Thousands of people saw its fireball descent (the museum has a photograph of the vapor trail), and radar sweeps documented its path across the region. The landlords demanded its return. Gallini said of their behavior: It isn't nice. Legal wrangling ensued. We are delighted, a year later, that there is a happy ending. The landlords eventually dropped their claims, the Smithsonian gave the doctors $10,000 for the Lorton meteorite (its formal name) in early February, and the physicians donated the check to the charity Doctors Without Borders last week. Linda Welzenbach, the meteorite collection manager at the Smithsonian, says it will soon be on public display, though no date has been set. We are very happy that it's staying at the Smithsonian, Gallini says. We felt that where it's belonged since the beginning. Deniz Mutlu, a member of the family that owns the building, said his only issue with events was that we got portrayed as the bad guys. All we wanted to do was donate it to a different institution (Phillips Exeter Academy, in New Hampshire), where my wife attended school, he said. The doctors wanted to litigate. They had pro bono counsel. We just let it go. The meteorite, which existed for about 4.5 billion years floating around between Mars and Jupiter, now spends its time in a little plastic box deep in the Mason-Clarke Meteorite Vault in the Smithsonian. It has thousands of other little asteroid friends, including three from Mars, to keep it company. Holding the Lorton meteorite with blue latex gloves, Welzenbach smiled. It's going to stay here where everyone can see it. CURIOUS? Tell us what past Washington Post story or person in the news you want us to update. E-mail tre...@washpost.com or call 202.334.4208. Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite
Well don't that suck!! (I guess) Now we will never have a piece of it. :-( -- Stuart McDaniel Lawndale, NC JoshuaTreeMuseum joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com wrote: = The landlords got outlawyered: http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/whatever-happened-to-the-lorton-meteorite-/2011/03/04/AB14tMq_story.html By Neely Tucker, Sunday, March 20, 11:42 AM When last we heard, Everybody's Favorite Meteorite was locked up in legal limbo. The oblong little rock from outer space lighted up the late afternoon sky across Washington on Jan. 18, 2010, and rocketed into a doctors' office in Lorton. Moving at a leisurely 200 mph, it crashed into examination room No. 2 in the Williamsburg Square Family Practice, even though it did not have an appointment. The startled (but unhurt) doctors, Marc Gallini and Frank Ciampi, donated it to the Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History, which houses the world's largest collection of meteorites. But then their landlords said not so fast: The 2-by-3-inch visitor from the asteroid belt was estimated to be worth at least $50,000 on the earth-bound meteorite market, in part because of its dramatic and well-documented entrance. Thousands of people saw its fireball descent (the museum has a photograph of the vapor trail), and radar sweeps documented its path across the region. The landlords demanded its return. Gallini said of their behavior: It isn't nice. Legal wrangling ensued. We are delighted, a year later, that there is a happy ending. The landlords eventually dropped their claims, the Smithsonian gave the doctors $10,000 for the Lorton meteorite (its formal name) in early February, and the physicians donated the check to the charity Doctors Without Borders last week. Linda Welzenbach, the meteorite collection manager at the Smithsonian, says it will soon be on public display, though no date has been set. We are very happy that it's staying at the Smithsonian, Gallini says. We felt that where it's belonged since the beginning. Deniz Mutlu, a member of the family that owns the building, said his only issue with events was that we got portrayed as the bad guys. All we wanted to do was donate it to a different institution (Phillips Exeter Academy, in New Hampshire), where my wife attended school, he said. The doctors wanted to litigate. They had pro bono counsel. We just let it go. The meteorite, which existed for about 4.5 billion years floating around between Mars and Jupiter, now spends its time in a little plastic box deep in the Mason-Clarke Meteorite Vault in the Smithsonian. It has thousands of other little asteroid friends, including three from Mars, to keep it company. Holding the Lorton meteorite with blue latex gloves, Welzenbach smiled. It's going to stay here where everyone can see it. CURIOUS? Tell us what past Washington Post story or person in the news you want us to update. E-mail tre...@washpost.com or call 202.334.4208. Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite
So basically, IF this Washington Post article is accurate in it's reporting, the landowners dropped the case after getting portrayed as the bad guys in the media by the Doctors who had a free lawyer, no legal fees, and they played the media game. I have to say the Doctors played the game well, it got turned into a PR war, and they won. So this case NEVER went anywhere legally? The actual issue of legal ownership is still not resolved. Regards, Eric On 3/18/2011 11:22 AM, JoshuaTreeMuseum wrote: The landlords got outlawyered: http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/whatever-happened-to-the-lorton-meteorite-/2011/03/04/AB14tMq_story.html By Neely Tucker, Sunday, March 20, 11:42 AM When last we heard, Everybody's Favorite Meteorite was locked up in legal limbo. The oblong little rock from outer space lighted up the late afternoon sky across Washington on Jan. 18, 2010, and rocketed into a doctors' office in Lorton. Moving at a leisurely 200 mph, it crashed into examination room No. 2 in the Williamsburg Square Family Practice, even though it did not have an appointment. The startled (but unhurt) doctors, Marc Gallini and Frank Ciampi, donated it to the Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History, which houses the world's largest collection of meteorites. But then their landlords said not so fast: The 2-by-3-inch visitor from the asteroid belt was estimated to be worth at least $50,000 on the earth-bound meteorite market, in part because of its dramatic and well-documented entrance. Thousands of people saw its fireball descent (the museum has a photograph of the vapor trail), and radar sweeps documented its path across the region. The landlords demanded its return. Gallini said of their behavior: It isn't nice. Legal wrangling ensued. We are delighted, a year later, that there is a happy ending. The landlords eventually dropped their claims, the Smithsonian gave the doctors $10,000 for the Lorton meteorite (its formal name) in early February, and the physicians donated the check to the charity Doctors Without Borders last week. Linda Welzenbach, the meteorite collection manager at the Smithsonian, says it will soon be on public display, though no date has been set. We are very happy that it's staying at the Smithsonian, Gallini says. We felt that where it's belonged since the beginning. Deniz Mutlu, a member of the family that owns the building, said his only issue with events was that we got portrayed as the bad guys. All we wanted to do was donate it to a different institution (Phillips Exeter Academy, in New Hampshire), where my wife attended school, he said. The doctors wanted to litigate. They had pro bono counsel. We just let it go. The meteorite, which existed for about 4.5 billion years floating around between Mars and Jupiter, now spends its time in a little plastic box deep in the Mason-Clarke Meteorite Vault in the Smithsonian. It has thousands of other little asteroid friends, including three from Mars, to keep it company. Holding the Lorton meteorite with blue latex gloves, Welzenbach smiled. It's going to stay here where everyone can see it. CURIOUS? Tell us what past Washington Post story or person in the news you want us to update. E-mail tre...@washpost.com or call 202.334.4208. Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite
Thanks for the update, Phil. Nice to know it's in a little plastic box deep in the Mason-Clarke Meteorite Vault in the Smithsonian. I wonder who paid for the building repairs. Linton - Original Message - From: JoshuaTreeMuseum joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 11:22 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite The landlords got outlawyered: http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/whatever-happened-to-the-lorton-meteorite-/2011/03/04/AB14tMq_story.html By Neely Tucker, Sunday, March 20, 11:42 AM When last we heard, Everybody's Favorite Meteorite was locked up in legal limbo. The oblong little rock from outer space lighted up the late afternoon sky across Washington on Jan. 18, 2010, and rocketed into a doctors' office in Lorton. Moving at a leisurely 200 mph, it crashed into examination room No. 2 in the Williamsburg Square Family Practice, even though it did not have an appointment. The startled (but unhurt) doctors, Marc Gallini and Frank Ciampi, donated it to the Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History, which houses the world's largest collection of meteorites. But then their landlords said not so fast: The 2-by-3-inch visitor from the asteroid belt was estimated to be worth at least $50,000 on the earth-bound meteorite market, in part because of its dramatic and well-documented entrance. Thousands of people saw its fireball descent (the museum has a photograph of the vapor trail), and radar sweeps documented its path across the region. The landlords demanded its return. Gallini said of their behavior: It isn't nice. Legal wrangling ensued. We are delighted, a year later, that there is a happy ending. The landlords eventually dropped their claims, the Smithsonian gave the doctors $10,000 for the Lorton meteorite (its formal name) in early February, and the physicians donated the check to the charity Doctors Without Borders last week. Linda Welzenbach, the meteorite collection manager at the Smithsonian, says it will soon be on public display, though no date has been set. We are very happy that it's staying at the Smithsonian, Gallini says. We felt that where it's belonged since the beginning. Deniz Mutlu, a member of the family that owns the building, said his only issue with events was that we got portrayed as the bad guys. All we wanted to do was donate it to a different institution (Phillips Exeter Academy, in New Hampshire), where my wife attended school, he said. The doctors wanted to litigate. They had pro bono counsel. We just let it go. The meteorite, which existed for about 4.5 billion years floating around between Mars and Jupiter, now spends its time in a little plastic box deep in the Mason-Clarke Meteorite Vault in the Smithsonian. It has thousands of other little asteroid friends, including three from Mars, to keep it company. Holding the Lorton meteorite with blue latex gloves, Welzenbach smiled. It's going to stay here where everyone can see it. CURIOUS? Tell us what past Washington Post story or person in the news you want us to update. E-mail tre...@washpost.com or call 202.334.4208. Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite
Last year I visited a friend who works at the Smithsonian and I got to hold the Lorton meteorite; it's absolutely a magnificent specimen. Greg S. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 18, 2011, at 11:22 AM, JoshuaTreeMuseum joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com wrote: The landlords got outlawyered: http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/whatever-happened-to-the-lorton-meteorite-/2011/03/04/AB14tMq_story.html By Neely Tucker, Sunday, March 20, 11:42 AM When last we heard, Everybody's Favorite Meteorite was locked up in legal limbo. The oblong little rock from outer space lighted up the late afternoon sky across Washington on Jan. 18, 2010, and rocketed into a doctors' office in Lorton. Moving at a leisurely 200 mph, it crashed into examination room No. 2 in the Williamsburg Square Family Practice, even though it did not have an appointment. The startled (but unhurt) doctors, Marc Gallini and Frank Ciampi, donated it to the Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History, which houses the world's largest collection of meteorites. But then their landlords said not so fast: The 2-by-3-inch visitor from the asteroid belt was estimated to be worth at least $50,000 on the earth-bound meteorite market, in part because of its dramatic and well-documented entrance. Thousands of people saw its fireball descent (the museum has a photograph of the vapor trail), and radar sweeps documented its path across the region. The landlords demanded its return. Gallini said of their behavior: It isn't nice. Legal wrangling ensued. We are delighted, a year later, that there is a happy ending. The landlords eventually dropped their claims, the Smithsonian gave the doctors $10,000 for the Lorton meteorite (its formal name) in early February, and the physicians donated the check to the charity Doctors Without Borders last week. Linda Welzenbach, the meteorite collection manager at the Smithsonian, says it will soon be on public display, though no date has been set. We are very happy that it's staying at the Smithsonian, Gallini says. We felt that where it's belonged since the beginning. Deniz Mutlu, a member of the family that owns the building, said his only issue with events was that we got portrayed as the bad guys. All we wanted to do was donate it to a different institution (Phillips Exeter Academy, in New Hampshire), where my wife attended school, he said. The doctors wanted to litigate. They had pro bono counsel. We just let it go. The meteorite, which existed for about 4.5 billion years floating around between Mars and Jupiter, now spends its time in a little plastic box deep in the Mason-Clarke Meteorite Vault in the Smithsonian. It has thousands of other little asteroid friends, including three from Mars, to keep it company. Holding the Lorton meteorite with blue latex gloves, Welzenbach smiled. It's going to stay here where everyone can see it. CURIOUS? Tell us what past Washington Post story or person in the news you want us to update. E-mail tre...@washpost.com or call 202.334.4208. Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite
Well shoot, that makes 2 of my 3 birthday falls rocks that I won't be unable to add to my collection (the other being Baxter, formerly part of the Nininger Collection). At least Tagish Lake is available, although at $600/g and up it's not exactly affordable to me. Hopefully Lorton will be on public display the next time I'm in D.C. from sunny so. Cal Michael On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Greg Stanley stanleygr...@hotmail.com wrote: Last year I visited a friend who works at the Smithsonian and I got to hold the Lorton meteorite; it's absolutely a magnificent specimen. Greg S. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 18, 2011, at 11:22 AM, JoshuaTreeMuseum joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com wrote: The landlords got outlawyered: http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/whatever-happened-to-the-lorton-meteorite-/2011/03/04/AB14tMq_story.html By Neely Tucker, Sunday, March 20, 11:42 AM When last we heard, Everybody's Favorite Meteorite was locked up in legal limbo. The oblong little rock from outer space lighted up the late afternoon sky across Washington on Jan. 18, 2010, and rocketed into a doctors' office in Lorton. Moving at a leisurely 200 mph, it crashed into examination room No. 2 in the Williamsburg Square Family Practice, even though it did not have an appointment. The startled (but unhurt) doctors, Marc Gallini and Frank Ciampi, donated it to the Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History, which houses the world's largest collection of meteorites. But then their landlords said not so fast: The 2-by-3-inch visitor from the asteroid belt was estimated to be worth at least $50,000 on the earth-bound meteorite market, in part because of its dramatic and well-documented entrance. Thousands of people saw its fireball descent (the museum has a photograph of the vapor trail), and radar sweeps documented its path across the region. The landlords demanded its return. Gallini said of their behavior: It isn't nice. Legal wrangling ensued. We are delighted, a year later, that there is a happy ending. The landlords eventually dropped their claims, the Smithsonian gave the doctors $10,000 for the Lorton meteorite (its formal name) in early February, and the physicians donated the check to the charity Doctors Without Borders last week. Linda Welzenbach, the meteorite collection manager at the Smithsonian, says it will soon be on public display, though no date has been set. We are very happy that it's staying at the Smithsonian, Gallini says. We felt that where it's belonged since the beginning. Deniz Mutlu, a member of the family that owns the building, said his only issue with events was that we got portrayed as the bad guys. All we wanted to do was donate it to a different institution (Phillips Exeter Academy, in New Hampshire), where my wife attended school, he said. The doctors wanted to litigate. They had pro bono counsel. We just let it go. The meteorite, which existed for about 4.5 billion years floating around between Mars and Jupiter, now spends its time in a little plastic box deep in the Mason-Clarke Meteorite Vault in the Smithsonian. It has thousands of other little asteroid friends, including three from Mars, to keep it company. Holding the Lorton meteorite with blue latex gloves, Welzenbach smiled. It's going to stay here where everyone can see it. CURIOUS? Tell us what past Washington Post story or person in the news you want us to update. E-mail tre...@washpost.com or call 202.334.4208. Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite
Whoops, didn't mean the double negative. ...rocks that I won't be _able_ to add to my collection... grammar police almost got me : ) On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 4:24 PM, Michael Mulgrew mikest...@gmail.com wrote: Well shoot, that makes 2 of my 3 birthday falls rocks that I won't be unable to add to my collection (the other being Baxter, formerly part of the Nininger Collection). At least Tagish Lake is available, although at $600/g and up it's not exactly affordable to me. Hopefully Lorton will be on public display the next time I'm in D.C. from sunny so. Cal Michael On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Greg Stanley stanleygr...@hotmail.com wrote: Last year I visited a friend who works at the Smithsonian and I got to hold the Lorton meteorite; it's absolutely a magnificent specimen. Greg S. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 18, 2011, at 11:22 AM, JoshuaTreeMuseum joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com wrote: The landlords got outlawyered: http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/whatever-happened-to-the-lorton-meteorite-/2011/03/04/AB14tMq_story.html By Neely Tucker, Sunday, March 20, 11:42 AM When last we heard, Everybody's Favorite Meteorite was locked up in legal limbo. The oblong little rock from outer space lighted up the late afternoon sky across Washington on Jan. 18, 2010, and rocketed into a doctors' office in Lorton. Moving at a leisurely 200 mph, it crashed into examination room No. 2 in the Williamsburg Square Family Practice, even though it did not have an appointment. The startled (but unhurt) doctors, Marc Gallini and Frank Ciampi, donated it to the Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History, which houses the world's largest collection of meteorites. But then their landlords said not so fast: The 2-by-3-inch visitor from the asteroid belt was estimated to be worth at least $50,000 on the earth-bound meteorite market, in part because of its dramatic and well-documented entrance. Thousands of people saw its fireball descent (the museum has a photograph of the vapor trail), and radar sweeps documented its path across the region. The landlords demanded its return. Gallini said of their behavior: It isn't nice. Legal wrangling ensued. We are delighted, a year later, that there is a happy ending. The landlords eventually dropped their claims, the Smithsonian gave the doctors $10,000 for the Lorton meteorite (its formal name) in early February, and the physicians donated the check to the charity Doctors Without Borders last week. Linda Welzenbach, the meteorite collection manager at the Smithsonian, says it will soon be on public display, though no date has been set. We are very happy that it's staying at the Smithsonian, Gallini says. We felt that where it's belonged since the beginning. Deniz Mutlu, a member of the family that owns the building, said his only issue with events was that we got portrayed as the bad guys. All we wanted to do was donate it to a different institution (Phillips Exeter Academy, in New Hampshire), where my wife attended school, he said. The doctors wanted to litigate. They had pro bono counsel. We just let it go. The meteorite, which existed for about 4.5 billion years floating around between Mars and Jupiter, now spends its time in a little plastic box deep in the Mason-Clarke Meteorite Vault in the Smithsonian. It has thousands of other little asteroid friends, including three from Mars, to keep it company. Holding the Lorton meteorite with blue latex gloves, Welzenbach smiled. It's going to stay here where everyone can see it. CURIOUS? Tell us what past Washington Post story or person in the news you want us to update. E-mail tre...@washpost.com or call 202.334.4208. Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite (Schmitt is wrong)
and specimens of fauna, flora, MINERALS and anatomy, and objects of palaeontological interest That sentence, especially if you read the other points (b) to (e) is there to avoid, that parts of museum collections will be trafficked. Well, is there anybody out, who can enlighten me, how a new fall of a meteorite - hence an object, that since beginnings of the solar system had no contact with humans or Earth at all, can be a priori part of the cultural heritage of a country?? Where are the cultural properties of a stone, which is lying unnoticed by mankind, animals, dinosaurs in the wasteland and which hadn't formed the landscape? Why the Antarctic finds then aren't protected as cultural heritage? How a stone, where nobody knows, whether it is a meteorite or terrestrial, can be exported illegally, if only later in a lab it is positively tested and recognized as meteorite? Did someone write a poem about Hughes 057? Do we have any nomad songs about NWA 2487? When Tagish Lake felt, were there a sect crawling out the bushes: The prophecy is fulfilled? When happened the fall of Carancas? 100 years ago? If a nomad pics up a black stone, is this than a cultural act? Stays the stone cultural property, if it was no meteorite but a sandstone? Please Jerry, don't paint any meteorite falls anymore, the stones will be immediately cultural heritage. Here is the full text of the convention: http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL_ID=13039URL_DO=DO_TOPICURL_SECTION= 201.html I personally see another interesting point. The convention was passed in 1970. The earliest article, bemoaning that there are meteorites dealt and where a prohibitive legislation was demanded, I could found in internet, stem from 1991. Maybe someone could find some earlier ones? Else one is tempted to get an impression, that in the early 90ies scientist found out, ooops, there are private individuals finding a lot of new meteorites, let's get them all! And others will tell: Sounds like trivial greed. I for my part think, that the effort to try refer to the convention, is ridiculous. It never was made, nor meant for meteorites. The only straws to clutch at, is the single word minerals, torn out of the context. With that construction, the export of coal, oil and cement would fall under the Convention of Cultural Property too. (Note the title, it says Ownership...see my last post). To pretend, that meteorites would be covered by the convention, is absolutely inappropriate. Therefore the respective countries should make a national lex meteoritica each or they should let it be. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Shawn Alan Gesendet: Sonntag, 7. Februar 2010 02:27 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; astror...@hotmail.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite Dennis/List Click on the link below and this might help with laws on ownership of meteorites. Shawn Alan http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=2002M% 26PSB..375Sdb_key=ASTpage_ind=0plate_select=NOdata_type=GIFtype=SCR EEN_GIFclassic=YES [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite Dennis Miller astroroks at hotmail.com Sat Feb 6 19:53:51 EST 2010 Previous message: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite Next message: [meteorite-list] Odd UNWA Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] I am an uninformed reader but, where can I find these Meteorite Laws? I usually only carry a copy of the Federal Regulations Title 43 Part 8360, that allows me to remove mineral specimens from public lands, should I run into an agent who is not familiar with the law. But, I am not familiar with Meteorite Laws. I know that Michelle Knapps had no trouble claiming and selling the Peekskill meteorite. Just need to know where to find these said new laws.. Thanks! Miss seeing everyone in Tucson. Had to have a Knee tune up after tromping around Egypt. Dennis From: prairiecactus at rtcol.com To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 21:39:46 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite Hiya Carl, gun lovers and haters: I was merely stating the law as it now stands. If a meteorite falls on your property, you own it. An open and shut case. If the Smithsonian wants to appeal to the Supreme Court, the Court could possibly rule that current meteorite laws are unconstitutional. It's extremely unlikely they would hear the case. It's highly unlikely even a Circuit judge would strike down current meteorite laws as unconstitutional. Or any judge for that matter. The Smithsonian has the lawyers and the funding of the federal gov't backing them, they could try to argue the laws are unconstitutional, highly unlikely as there is practically no chance
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite
Phil, Martin , List, Not to beat a dead horse here but, we all understand the way things are now. In this link I provided earlier and again below there are particular events that occurred that may effect the outcome of this new case. Please read link again and click on the past precedence they link to. One is the Pierson V. Post case. ( this is highlighted in the article) In this case the court ruled the way most of us would expect. Surprisingly when the ruling was challenged in the supreme court. The decision was reversed! OMG, This case is about possession and is probably what John Lennon meant when he said; Possession isn't nine-tenths of the law. It's nine-tenths of the problem. . Please take particular note of the boxed area which quotes the exchange between the Doctor and his landlord. The doctor says he called the landlord and told him he plans to hand the meteorite over to the Smithsonian. He goes on to say that the landlord gave him PERMISSION to do so. I may be old school but once the landlord Ok' d the hand over he gave up ownership. Verbal agreements are legally binding. Obviously the landlord later realized he had made a mistake so, had his brother try to reclaim it but the fact is once you give something away you NO longer own it. Period. Sorry but please re-read this article linked here.' http://brightcoast.wordpress.com/2010/02/05/meteorite-law-are-tenants-lost-in-space/ So, you see there are issues that clearly need pursuing but, Please all due respect to Indians today but as a kid we used to call this Indian Giving. Sorry about that I would never use this term today but thought it would make the point that you cannot take back something you previously gave away. Sorry, if you are of sound mind at the time you just cannot. No matter how bad you feel about it later. The meteorite has already changed hands. Maybe. Only the courts can decide now. Actually as already noted by another list member maybe they should divide it three ways and be done with it? Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax Phil Whitmer prairiecac...@rtcol.com wrote: When you acquire clear title to a piece of property, you also get landowners rights. These rights are written into the state constitutions or the bill of rights. You own everything above, below and on your land. Once a meteorite enters your air space, you own it. Anyone who tries to take it can be charged with theft, here in Indiana, felony theft. If I was the landowner in the Lorton case, I would file felony theft charges against whoever stole my property. Since there are no specific laws pertaining to meteorites, the courts would decide the cases by legal precedent. This was all worked out by the time of the Hodges meteorite case in 1954. If you think the landowners rights are unconstitutional, and you want to defy precedent, lots of luck to you and your lawyers, as you sue for ownership of someone else's property. There's no way these rules are changing anytime soon, especially not for meteorites. Phil Whitmer I am an uninformed reader but, where can I find these Meteorite Laws? I usually only carry a copy of the Federal Regulations Title 43 Part 8360, that allows me to remove mineral specimens from public lands, should I run into an agent who is not familiar with the law. But, I am not familiar with Meteorite Laws. I know that Michelle Knapps had no trouble claiming and selling the Peekskill meteorite. Just need to know where to find these said new laws.. Thanks! Miss seeing everyone in Tucson. Had to have a Knee tune up after tromping around Egypt. Dennis __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite
The doctor says he called the landlord and told him he plans to hand the meteorite over to the Smithsonian. He goes on to say that the landlord gave him PERMISSION to do so. I may be old school but once the landlord Ok' d the hand over he gave up ownership. Verbal agreements are legally binding. Obviously the landlord later realized he had made a mistake so, had his brother try to reclaim it but the fact is once you give something away you NO longer own it. Period. Sorry but please re-read this article linked here.' Hi Carl and Phil, Carl, you are assuming that the doctor is telling the truth. I have seen no proof in those articles that the landlord has ever given any such permission. He probably did, but we can't assume that just because the doctor said so. When you acquire clear title to a piece of property, you also get landowners rights. These rights are written into the state constitutions or the bill of rights. You own everything above, below and on your land. I'm sorry, but you are not correct, Phil. Some (many? most?) states in the U.S. don't grant you the mineral rights under your house/business. You have to purchase that separately (if this is allowed in your state, county or municipality). In Colorado, you don't own the mineral rights under the house you just bought, unless you get that specified in the title. That wouldn't be relevant for a meteorite that just fell, but I just wanted to make sure that everyone knows that everything below your house is not necessarily owned by you. A friend of mine researched this 5 or so years ago and that is what he found here in Colorado. I've heard from a few others in other states who said the same thing. Regards, Bob -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of cdtuc...@cox.net Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 11:40 AM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Phil Whitmer Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite Phil, Martin , List, Not to beat a dead horse here but, we all understand the way things are now. In this link I provided earlier and again below there are particular events that occurred that may effect the outcome of this new case. Please read link again and click on the past precedence they link to. One is the Pierson V. Post case. ( this is highlighted in the article) In this case the court ruled the way most of us would expect. Surprisingly when the ruling was challenged in the supreme court. The decision was reversed! OMG, This case is about possession and is probably what John Lennon meant when he said; Possession isn't nine-tenths of the law. It's nine-tenths of the problem. . Please take particular note of the boxed area which quotes the exchange between the Doctor and his landlord. The doctor says he called the landlord and told him he plans to hand the meteorite over to the Smithsonian. He goes on to say that the landlord gave him PERMISSION to do so. I may be old school but once the landlord Ok' d the hand over he gave up ownership. Verbal agreements are legally binding. Obviously the landlord later realized he had made a mistake so, had his brother try to reclaim it but the fact is once you give something away you NO longer own it. Period. Sorry but please re-read this article linked here.' http://brightcoast.wordpress.com/2010/02/05/meteorite-law-are-tenants-lost-i n-space/ So, you see there are issues that clearly need pursuing but, Please all due respect to Indians today but as a kid we used to call this Indian Giving. Sorry about that I would never use this term today but thought it would make the point that you cannot take back something you previously gave away. Sorry, if you are of sound mind at the time you just cannot. No matter how bad you feel about it later. The meteorite has already changed hands. Maybe. Only the courts can decide now. Actually as already noted by another list member maybe they should divide it three ways and be done with it? Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax Phil Whitmer prairiecac...@rtcol.com wrote: When you acquire clear title to a piece of property, you also get landowners rights. These rights are written into the state constitutions or the bill of rights. You own everything above, below and on your land. Once a meteorite enters your air space, you own it. Anyone who tries to take it can be charged with theft, here in Indiana, felony theft. If I was the landowner in the Lorton case, I would file felony theft charges against whoever stole my property. Since there are no specific laws pertaining to meteorites, the courts would decide the cases by legal precedent. This was all worked out by the time of the Hodges meteorite case in 1954. If you think the landowners rights are unconstitutional, and you want to defy precedent, lots of luck to you and your lawyers, as you sue for ownership of someone else's property
[meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite (Schmitt is wrong)(NO your wrong)
Martin/List Stated by Martin.. Hello Shawn, please don't use that article from Schmitt any longer, because it is incorrect and misleading. Here is the misleading article link http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=2002M%26PSB..375Sdb_key=ASTpage_ind=0plate_select=NOdata_type=GIFtype=SCREEN_GIFclassic=YES Martin I am glad you think its misleading I guess when you read the article you also read the part where Schmitt wrote about General Comments on Find Ownership where he stated... The above illustrations indicate the wide range of rules about ownership of meteorite between countries. Each legal system is unique, but in general terms in most places the landownerer of the place of find owns the meteorite. http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=2002M%26PSB..375Sdb_key=ASTpage_ind=3plate_select=NOdata_type=GIFtype=SCREEN_GIFclassic=YES He further goes on and in his conclusion and states. Meteorite ownership law varies widely. http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=2002M%26PSB..375Sdb_key=ASTpage_ind=5plate_select=NOdata_type=GIFtype=SCREEN_GIFclassic=YES By the quotes I can infer that Schmitt has suggested that these LAWS vary from country to country and from state to state so people might want to check with their local laws on property rights. Lastly, Martin you stated So we should avoid the term ethics, in the meteorite laws debate.. O should we? I am confused by your should state. I thought this website is set up for discussions on meteorites? I think in the future you might want to consider your choice of words directed to the list. The article by Schmitt, I will continue to post as a reference when law topics come up or when you decide to publish an article in Meteorite Planetary Science that debunks Schmitts Article. Thank you Shawn Alan [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite (Schmitt is wrong) Martin Altmann altmann at meteorite-martin.de Sun Feb 7 11:12:32 EST 2010 Hello Shawn, please don't use that article from Schmitt any longer, because it is incorrect and misleading. Schmitt writes (with a quotation, where he left out the most important words), that the UNESCO convention of 1970 would include meteorites. And inanother place: This Convention, ratified by over 90 states, provides for tracking and retrieving from reciprocating states, cultural property including meteorites. That is wrong. Full stop. The point about Switzerland is wrong too. Huh, would have to rummage my old emails, I once occupied myself with that Schmitt-topic... A here it is one o them (see below)... (Perhaps I should add, that also technically the UNESCO convention can't protect anything, because - as given in the text of the convention - it has to be ratified by each nation first, and each nation individually has to create an individual list of items of their national heritage. Only if that has happened and if meteorites are found in the individual national heritage lists (like e.g. in Australia) the convention is effective). And anyway, other meteorite laws... In most constitutional countries personal property belongs to the strongest personal rights and is especially protected. In such countries od rule of law, disappropriation (with ot without compensation) by a state or to limit the use of a property (like e.g. to forbid to sell to other countries) is grave intervention of the individual personal rights, which, if done, requires a especially strong resons, usually the pubic weal or interest. You know, cases of land dissapropriation for building a highway ect. In most of these constitutional nations, legislation and judicature are separated. So not the law is decisive - a judge or a court have to decide. Furthermore such constitutional countries do have a interdiction of arbitrary laws, laws made for only a single case are not effective. Such laws can exist, but a court has to decide and it is also possible to proof them by a court, whether they are constitutional or not. So. If e.g. a country like Switzerland or Denmark, where only every 30 or 80 years a meteorite falls, would have a special meteorite law (which they don't have), it would be highly doubtful, whether that law would be valuable. And if a country has a law, which allows a disappropriation by or a right of preemption by (like Switzerland has) or a compulsory sale of a meteorite to the state, because it is an object of high public or scientific importance or interest, this interest has to be justified and proven. Switzerland e.g. would have most probably difficulties to do that. If one sees, that the state wasn't willing to preserve the historical Bally-meteorite-collection, the most important meteorite collection of Switzerland and that no single public institute took advantage from the preemption to buy it, when it was liquidated a few years ago
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite (Schmitt is wrong)(NO your wrong)
Hi Shawn, I was referring to the UNESCO convention of 1970, which indeed is a different kettle of fish, than regional states or federal laws, like in the Lorton case. Whether landowner, landlord, lodger, finder, keeper is the owner. Nevertheless that UNESCO-thing is a more serious one, cause in case, it says what a owner is allowed to do with his property or not, and hence would be affect the free meteorite trade of collectors, scientists, nations. Furthermore the UNESCO-convention if applied on meteorite could lead also to stricter regional laws, cause the clercs, politicians or whoever could get the impression, that meteorites would be cultural items. (Look, China e.g. made laws for fossils, which vitually are making all fossils property of the state and if there is a private ownership, the owner is allowed only to sell to the state). And Schmitt is suggesting of the UNESCO convention automatically protecting ALL meteorites (of those 90 countries which had ratified, when he published his article). And that is simply not true - you have only to read the fulltext of the convention. Meteorites aren't mentioned at all, neither they seem to meet the definition of cultural heritage, given there. And the only case they are indeed protected by the UNESCO convention is: A) if they are part of a scientific collection B) if they are listed explicitely in the individual national catalogues of items of the cultural heritage, with each signing nation has to make. And, Schmitt fully forgets the UNIDROIT convention. It is very dangerous for most countries, to declare meteorites as heritage, and it would be a great disservice, if they would do so. Why? Here weg go: http://www.unidroit.org/English/conventions/1995culturalproperty/1995cultura lproperty-e.htm See? If meteorites are cultural heritage by means of the 1970 convention, then they would be also subject to the UNIDROIT convention. And then it can happen, that the day will come that Australia, Algeria, China, Oman, Argentina.. will knock on the door, to say: Give us our meteorites back. As they are doing already with artefacts, aboriginal stuff, with fossils, with art, with archaeological items ect. And then we would have to dissolve the great collections, especially in the meteorite poor countries. We would have to dissolve London, Vienna, Paris, New York, partially also the Smithonian collection... Because for the most meteorites from the last 200 years, they all simply have no proof, that they were once legally exported. Simple theoretical example: A meteorite shower, called Pultusk. The village museum of Pultusk hasn't any nice Pultusks. If UK would have meteorites in their heritage lists, the village museum could address quickly to the ministry, to make an affair of states out of the case. Pultusk - shortly after it felt, Mr.Krantz was travelling there, a mineral dealer, and hunted and bought stones from the locals, as many as he could get. Just like the meteorite dealers of our times, no difference. Krantz took them home to Bonn, Germany and sold them to quite all big collections of these times. The curator would have to rummage the archives of the London collection, and if he's lucky he will find an old invoice, or a budget notation, but a proof, that the Pultusks in the London collection were once legally removed from Poland or from Germany - he or she won't find? Why? Because before (and of course also after) the foofaraw with Australia and Canada began, no scientist, no curator, no dealer, no collector cared for export papers for meteorites - because nobody could have the idea, that once in future, papers for something like - and don't forget, we're taking about really whack objects, where still today almost nobody globally seen is interested in - one once would need papers! That is a problem, fully ignored, but nevertheless real. Therefore I think it's not so good, to spread that Schmitt article around. O.k. a normal curator will be well aware of the problem, but past showed, that it isn't granted that all are really normal Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Shawn Alan Gesendet: Sonntag, 7. Februar 2010 21:34 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite (Schmitt is wrong)(NO your wrong) Martin/List Stated by Martin.. Hello Shawn, please don't use that article from Schmitt any longer, because it is incorrect and misleading. Here is the misleading article link http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=2002M% 26PSB..375Sdb_key=ASTpage_ind=0plate_select=NOdata_type=GIFtype=SCR EEN_GIFclassic=YES Martin I am glad you think its misleading I guess when you read the article you also read the part where Schmitt wrote about General Comments on Find Ownership where he stated... The above illustrations indicate
[meteorite-list] meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite (Schmitt is wrong)(NO your wrong)
Martin, I like your insight but to ignore or suggest what should be placed on the list even though it pertains to meteorites is wrong from this statement you made That is a problem, fully ignored, but nevertheless real. Therefore I think it's not so good, to spread that Schmitt article around. O.k. a normal curator will be well aware of the problem, but past showed, that it isn't granted that all are really normal http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=2002M%26PSB..375Sdb_key=ASTpage_ind=0plate_select=NOdata_type=GIFtype=SCREEN_GIFclassic=YES Thank Shawn Alan [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite (Schmitt is wrong)(NO your wrong) Martin Altmann altmann at meteorite-martin.de Sun Feb 7 18:53:51 EST 2010 Previous message: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite (Schmitt is wrong)(NO your wrong) Next message: [meteorite-list] Dawn Journal - January 30, 2010 Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Hi Shawn, I was referring to the UNESCO convention of 1970, which indeed is a different kettle of fish, than regional states or federal laws, like in the Lorton case. Whether landowner, landlord, lodger, finder, keeper is the owner. Nevertheless that UNESCO-thing is a more serious one, cause in case, it says what a owner is allowed to do with his property or not, and hence would be affect the free meteorite trade of collectors, scientists, nations. Furthermore the UNESCO-convention if applied on meteorite could lead also to stricter regional laws, cause the clercs, politicians or whoever could get the impression, that meteorites would be cultural items. (Look, China e.g. made laws for fossils, which vitually are making all fossils property of the state and if there is a private ownership, the owner is allowed only to sell to the state). And Schmitt is suggesting of the UNESCO convention automatically protecting ALL meteorites (of those 90 countries which had ratified, when he published his article). And that is simply not true - you have only to read the fulltext of the convention. Meteorites aren't mentioned at all, neither they seem to meet the definition of cultural heritage, given there. And the only case they are indeed protected by the UNESCO convention is: A) if they are part of a scientific collection B) if they are listed explicitely in the individual national catalogues of items of the cultural heritage, with each signing nation has to make. And, Schmitt fully forgets the UNIDROIT convention. It is very dangerous for most countries, to declare meteorites as heritage, and it would be a great disservice, if they would do so. Why? Here weg go: http://www.unidroit.org/English/conventions/1995culturalproperty/1995cultura lproperty-e.htm See? If meteorites are cultural heritage by means of the 1970 convention, then they would be also subject to the UNIDROIT convention. And then it can happen, that the day will come that Australia, Algeria, China, Oman, Argentina.. will knock on the door, to say: Give us our meteorites back. As they are doing already with artefacts, aboriginal stuff, with fossils, with art, with archaeological items ect. And then we would have to dissolve the great collections, especially in the meteorite poor countries. We would have to dissolve London, Vienna, Paris, New York, partially also the Smithonian collection... Because for the most meteorites from the last 200 years, they all simply have no proof, that they were once legally exported. Simple theoretical example: A meteorite shower, called Pultusk. The village museum of Pultusk hasn't any nice Pultusks. If UK would have meteorites in their heritage lists, the village museum could address quickly to the ministry, to make an affair of states out of the case. Pultusk - shortly after it felt, Mr.Krantz was travelling there, a mineral dealer, and hunted and bought stones from the locals, as many as he could get. Just like the meteorite dealers of our times, no difference. Krantz took them home to Bonn, Germany and sold them to quite all big collections of these times. The curator would have to rummage the archives of the London collection, and if he's lucky he will find an old invoice, or a budget notation, but a proof, that the Pultusks in the London collection were once legally removed from Poland or from Germany - he or she won't find? Why? Because before (and of course also after) the foofaraw with Australia and Canada began, no scientist, no curator, no dealer, no collector cared for export papers for meteorites - because nobody could have the idea, that once in future, papers for something like - and don't forget, we're taking about really whack objects, where still today almost nobody globally seen is interested in - one once would need papers! That is a problem, fully ignored, but nevertheless real. Therefore I think it's not so good, to spread
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite
I am an uninformed reader but, where can I find these Meteorite Laws? I usually only carry a copy of the Federal Regulations Title 43 Part 8360, that allows me to remove mineral specimens from public lands, should I run into an agent who is not familiar with the law. But, I am not familiar with Meteorite Laws. I know that Michelle Knapps had no trouble claiming and selling the Peekskill meteorite. Just need to know where to find these said new laws.. Thanks! Miss seeing everyone in Tucson. Had to have a Knee tune up after tromping around Egypt. Dennis From: prairiecac...@rtcol.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 21:39:46 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite Hiya Carl, gun lovers and haters: I was merely stating the law as it now stands. If a meteorite falls on your property, you own it. An open and shut case. If the Smithsonian wants to appeal to the Supreme Court, the Court could possibly rule that current meteorite laws are unconstitutional. It's extremely unlikely they would hear the case. It's highly unlikely even a Circuit judge would strike down current meteorite laws as unconstitutional. Or any judge for that matter. The Smithsonian has the lawyers and the funding of the federal gov't backing them, they could try to argue the laws are unconstitutional, highly unlikely as there is practically no chance they would win. What they could do is go straight to the President and get either a presidential decree or have the Justice Dep't write some memos like they did legalizing torture. Again not a chance. More likely they could get a Congressman to introduce a bill changing the meteorite laws, but it would never make it out of the first round of sub-committes. Possession might be nine tenths of the law, but I'll be dollars to donuts the Smithsonian gives it back. Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite
Dennis/List Click on the link below and this might help with laws on ownership of meteorites. Shawn Alan http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=2002M%26PSB..375Sdb_key=ASTpage_ind=0plate_select=NOdata_type=GIFtype=SCREEN_GIFclassic=YES [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite Dennis Miller astroroks at hotmail.com Sat Feb 6 19:53:51 EST 2010 Previous message: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite Next message: [meteorite-list] Odd UNWA Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] I am an uninformed reader but, where can I find these Meteorite Laws? I usually only carry a copy of the Federal Regulations Title 43 Part 8360, that allows me to remove mineral specimens from public lands, should I run into an agent who is not familiar with the law. But, I am not familiar with Meteorite Laws. I know that Michelle Knapps had no trouble claiming and selling the Peekskill meteorite. Just need to know where to find these said new laws.. Thanks! Miss seeing everyone in Tucson. Had to have a Knee tune up after tromping around Egypt. Dennis From: prairiecactus at rtcol.com To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 21:39:46 -0500 Subject: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite Hiya Carl, gun lovers and haters: I was merely stating the law as it now stands. If a meteorite falls on your property, you own it. An open and shut case. If the Smithsonian wants to appeal to the Supreme Court, the Court could possibly rule that current meteorite laws are unconstitutional. It's extremely unlikely they would hear the case. It's highly unlikely even a Circuit judge would strike down current meteorite laws as unconstitutional. Or any judge for that matter. The Smithsonian has the lawyers and the funding of the federal gov't backing them, they could try to argue the laws are unconstitutional, highly unlikely as there is practically no chance they would win. What they could do is go straight to the President and get either a presidential decree or have the Justice Dep't write some memos like they did legalizing torture. Again not a chance. More likely they could get a Congressman to introduce a bill changing the meteorite laws, but it would never make it out of the first round of sub-committes. Possession might be nine tenths of the law, but I'll be dollars to donuts the Smithsonian gives it back. Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/ Previous message: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite Next message: [meteorite-list] Odd UNWA Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] More information about the Meteorite-list mailing list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite
When you acquire clear title to a piece of property, you also get landowners rights. These rights are written into the state constitutions or the bill of rights. You own everything above, below and on your land. Once a meteorite enters your air space, you own it. Anyone who tries to take it can be charged with theft, here in Indiana, felony theft. If I was the landowner in the Lorton case, I would file felony theft charges against whoever stole my property. Since there are no specific laws pertaining to meteorites, the courts would decide the cases by legal precedent. This was all worked out by the time of the Hodges meteorite case in 1954. If you think the landowners rights are unconstitutional, and you want to defy precedent, lots of luck to you and your lawyers, as you sue for ownership of someone else's property. There's no way these rules are changing anytime soon, especially not for meteorites. Phil Whitmer I am an uninformed reader but, where can I find these Meteorite Laws? I usually only carry a copy of the Federal Regulations Title 43 Part 8360, that allows me to remove mineral specimens from public lands, should I run into an agent who is not familiar with the law. But, I am not familiar with Meteorite Laws. I know that Michelle Knapps had no trouble claiming and selling the Peekskill meteorite. Just need to know where to find these said new laws.. Thanks! Miss seeing everyone in Tucson. Had to have a Knee tune up after tromping around Egypt. Dennis __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock'
Carl and Listers Again can you please give me an example of someone owning the fall of a meteorite thats relates to the Lorton meteorite. As for the Lorton meteorite the meteorite didnt find the Dr's they found the meteorite. They didnt find the fall of the meteorite because the meteorite had fallen and hit the surface and ended its path in the Dr's office on the ground where the Dr's found the meteorite. The Dr's in question dont own the office they lease the space. Lastly, you keep falling back on this fall question. Now in your own words or in a good source can you define what the ownership of the fall of a meteorite is? Shawn Alan Forwarded Message: Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock' Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock' Friday, February 5, 2010 8:42 AM From: cdtuc...@cox.net To: photoph...@yahoo.com Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Shawn, As silly as it sounds, there are people who believe there is a difference between a fall and afind. And although these seven words (A find is owned by the landowner) might define ownership of a find. It does not address the ownership of a fall. I think the Hodges case did address this issue but often times the courts do reverse previous decisions.For an example of real property ownership; In real estate, property is described based on ownership boundaries. For example; In ownership of a condominium you really only do own the air space ( sometimes they are high rise buildings). You own the paint on the wall but not the wall itself. You really don't own outright any real property (land) . The association which you are a part of owns the land but not a single individual. In a town home you do own the inside half of the walls that separate the units but not the exterior of the building or the roof. I guess we need to see the actual statute to see if it addresses falls or not to be sure and it might be more than seven words long. But, lets say for argument sake that this meteorite never hits land. This is the case with Lorton but what if it hit a car parked on land and remained 100% within the car? What has the land owner to do with this? It never hit land. This is why air space comes into play. In the Lorton case it never hit land either. This makes it complicated. The doctors actually did not find the meteorite. It found them. Again, a find is clear but a fall is not. IMO At least not clear based on a weak seven words used above. Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax photoph...@yahoo.com wrote: Carl and Listers, The example I gave might be half weak in your eyes, but the fact of the matter is that it states that the landowner is entitled to the meteorite. Now the answer to your question about who is entitled to the fall in question and not the find is weak. What is in question is the ownership of the meteorite not the fall of the meteorite. Can you please give me an example of someone owning the fall of the meteorite? A meteorite comes into question of ownership once it has impacted the the surface or there of not while its in flight. Shawn Alan __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock'
Well... whether it was an ownerless object, whether it became part of the ground I have a question: How could we and science survive 200 years, how could Homo Sapiens survive 200,000 years and how could survive this planet 4 500 000 000 years without any law about ownership of meteorites ? Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Shawn Alan Gesendet: Freitag, 5. Februar 2010 17:45 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock' Carl and Listers Again can you please give me an example of someone owning the fall of a meteorite thats relates to the Lorton meteorite. As for the Lorton meteorite the meteorite didnt find the Dr's they found the meteorite. They didnt find the fall of the meteorite because the meteorite had fallen and hit the surface and ended its path in the Dr's office on the ground where the Dr's found the meteorite. The Dr's in question dont own the office they lease the space. Lastly, you keep falling back on this fall question. Now in your own words or in a good source can you define what the ownership of the fall of a meteorite is? Shawn Alan Forwarded Message: Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock' Re: [meteorite-list] Fwd: Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock' Friday, February 5, 2010 8:42 AM From: cdtuc...@cox.net To: photoph...@yahoo.com Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Shawn, As silly as it sounds, there are people who believe there is a difference between a fall and afind. And although these seven words (A find is owned by the landowner) might define ownership of a find. It does not address the ownership of a fall. I think the Hodges case did address this issue but often times the courts do reverse previous decisions.For an example of real property ownership; In real estate, property is described based on ownership boundaries. For example; In ownership of a condominium you really only do own the air space ( sometimes they are high rise buildings). You own the paint on the wall but not the wall itself. You really don't own outright any real property (land) . The association which you are a part of owns the land but not a single individual. In a town home you do own the inside half of the walls that separate the units but not the exterior of the building or the roof. I guess we need to see the actual statute to see if it addresses falls or not to be sure and it might be more than seven words long. But, lets say for argument sake that this meteorite never hits land. This is the case with Lorton but what if it hit a car parked on land and remained 100% within the car? What has the land owner to do with this? It never hit land. This is why air space comes into play. In the Lorton case it never hit land either. This makes it complicated. The doctors actually did not find the meteorite. It found them. Again, a find is clear but a fall is not. IMO At least not clear based on a weak seven words used above. Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax photoph...@yahoo.com wrote: Carl and Listers, The example I gave might be half weak in your eyes, but the fact of the matter is that it states that the landowner is entitled to the meteorite. Now the answer to your question about who is entitled to the fall in question and not the find is weak. What is in question is the ownership of the meteorite not the fall of the meteorite. Can you please give me an example of someone owning the fall of the meteorite? A meteorite comes into question of ownership once it has impacted the the surface or there of not while its in flight. Shawn Alan __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Lorton meteorite
Hi all. I do believe the meteorite did break into three pieces. The landowner gets one piece, the DR. gets one piece and the Smithsonian gets one. Just a thought. Thx Julie Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite
There's really no question here, the landowner owns the meteorite. (period) The People's Rock? Maybe in the People's Republic of China! Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite
Phil, I assume from this bold statement that you either have inside information or you are not familiar with the American legal system. Most people including myself agree that you are probably right and the past precedent says it belongs to the landlord. . The Smithsonian and the Doctors are not convinced or this matter would be over wouldn't it? This looks like it is going to be challenged in court. If this changes the precedent it might make this particular meteorite very important for a chondrite. It is definitely worth the challenge for the doctors. Plus keep in mind the Smithsonian might have there own lawyers involved. How do they say it. It aint over till the fat lady sings. Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax JoshuaTreeMuseum joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com wrote: There's really no question here, the landowner owns the meteorite. (period) The People's Rock? Maybe in the People's Republic of China! Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite
Poor doctor, hey veterans! Remember? In former times, each new find or find of new meteorite was a happy, happy event. And nowadays? People fighting on the street in Park Forest, Evil blood in Ash Creek, Schrader gets harassed for his Arizona fall finds, Bouzzard Coulee the export mess, Tamdakht, when it felt, the Moroccans were attacked to be lie about the tkw, Fireball over South Africa, immediate scream: It belongs to the state! Niggling scientists in Moss, Mud-wrestling in the Cancarancas hole, PA Fireball, dealers ranting, Arrests cause of Almahata Sitta, Hindrance of the field work in Sulagiri, Lawsuit about Neuschwanstein, Prohibition of Berduc, Santa Lucia - work for nothing, False accusations that Chergach would be Bassikounou or vice versa, Corruption at Buenguerir, And the Australians, the Omani, the Algerians make a drama, that every observer could mean, that it has to be an incredible catastrophe, that meteorites are found in these countries. And other yellers try to close Sahara completely. Now Lorton. That all sucks endlessly. I can't help, how shall we discuss about cultural heritage, if the people have no culture? Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von cdtuc...@cox.net Gesendet: Freitag, 5. Februar 2010 22:50 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; JoshuaTreeMuseum Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite Phil, I assume from this bold statement that you either have inside information or you are not familiar with the American legal system. Most people including myself agree that you are probably right and the past precedent says it belongs to the landlord. . The Smithsonian and the Doctors are not convinced or this matter would be over wouldn't it? This looks like it is going to be challenged in court. If this changes the precedent it might make this particular meteorite very important for a chondrite. It is definitely worth the challenge for the doctors. Plus keep in mind the Smithsonian might have there own lawyers involved. How do they say it. It aint over till the fat lady sings. Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax JoshuaTreeMuseum joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com wrote: There's really no question here, the landowner owns the meteorite. (period) The People's Rock? Maybe in the People's Republic of China! Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock'
Well... whether it was an ownerless object, whether it became part of the ground I have a question: How could we and science survive 200 years, how could Homo Sapiens survive 200,000 years and how could survive this planet 4 500 000 000 years without any law about ownership of meteorites ? Hi Martin and Listers Are you asking does the human race need laws on ownership of meteorites to survive? Shawn Alan __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton meteorite
Hi Martin and All, Everything is relative and it could get much worse!:( Maybe now is happy times afterall. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaW4Ol3_M1ofeature=fvst Carl2 Martin wrote: hey veterans! Remember? In former times, each new find or find of new meteorite was a happy, happy event... _ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock'
No, I asked, how we survived without. When the day is long, I sometimes think, why hasn't Andorra a meteorite law yet? But Denmark has. Seriously, everything was going perfectly without meteorite laws, nobody felt a need for meteorite laws. Especially in the last 10-20 years, the find rates exploded, for 10 years the prices dropped, meteorites became readily available at will, even the most weird types, and very important new ones were recovered, - available at will for researchers and private collectors and that at so low prices, never seen before. And what do we had to see? Even in these very recent few years? A torrent of laws. Well, in the 1980ies some got worried, thought it will be more helpful, to have laws, cause they thought more meteorites will end up in the institutes, so they made the experiment, see Australia. Result was, that Australia was catapulted from rank N°3 of the meteorite nations into Nirwana, and erased from the map of meteoritics, as no finds were made anymore. Did we learn a thing from that? No. On contrary, laws, laws, laws, in Denmark, in China, in Oman, in Poland, in Algeria, in Argentina Libya was left from the hunters, find rates dropped to 3%. Oman, when the privateers made it arable, the officials came, which couldn't even spell the word meteorite before and found it nicely done for themselves, since then a tiny group of a few individuals tried everything to kick the hunters out, if we deduct the finds of the normal hunters - what will be left? Algeria, not a single effort ever, to do something for meteorites. But laws... The first reports from the Tucson show are coming in. By all means they are appalling. Again less material, prices multiplied. Don't get me wrong, USA is meteoritically seen one of the last few civilized countries (Germany too), and nothing against Franconia... but shall this really be the future of meteoritics? It is difficult to bear. Those laws happen always at the instigation of a very few individuals. What for a hubris a person must have, what for a self-righteousness, which allows him or her, to bring a whole branch of a science, which is established for 200 years, down and to put himself above those, who produce the meteorites and above his colleagues? And if one thinks about the costs, the public will have to bear then. Shawn, I hear so often from universities and museums, oh, that sample we can't afford. What will they say, what will they do, if meteorites due to these laws will cost later 5 times or 30 times more, because there aren't any anymore? Scaremongering? Not at all, I still knew the times, when the prices were so high, and the curators, if they are looking in the archives, know it too, that they had to pay such prices for the 200 years before. It makes no sense. Also not for these people themselves, they win nothing, but they loose almost all. And I can't understand them, what for an irresponsibility! Shawn, enjoy these years, they are the last. The change, we all warned against, has begun. And be told, what we loose once, we never will get back again. So let Lorton be Lorton, who cares, if the Smithonian will buy it from the doc or from the landlord. We have rather to decide the future of meteoritics, science and collecting, before it will be fully too late. Ouch! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Shawn Alan Gesendet: Samstag, 6. Februar 2010 01:04 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock' Well... whether it was an ownerless object, whether it became part of the ground I have a question: How could we and science survive 200 years, how could Homo Sapiens survive 200,000 years and how could survive this planet 4 500 000 000 years without any law about ownership of meteorites ? Hi Martin and Listers Are you asking does the human race need laws on ownership of meteorites to survive? Shawn Alan __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite
Hiya Carl, gun lovers and haters: I was merely stating the law as it now stands. If a meteorite falls on your property, you own it. An open and shut case. If the Smithsonian wants to appeal to the Supreme Court, the Court could possibly rule that current meteorite laws are unconstitutional. It's extremely unlikely they would hear the case. It's highly unlikely even a Circuit judge would strike down current meteorite laws as unconstitutional. Or any judge for that matter. The Smithsonian has the lawyers and the funding of the federal gov't backing them, they could try to argue the laws are unconstitutional, highly unlikely as there is practically no chance they would win. What they could do is go straight to the President and get either a presidential decree or have the Justice Dep't write some memos like they did legalizing torture. Again not a chance. More likely they could get a Congressman to introduce a bill changing the meteorite laws, but it would never make it out of the first round of sub-committes. Possession might be nine tenths of the law, but I'll be dollars to donuts the Smithsonian gives it back. Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite
I'm puzzled by why so many of you seem to think the Smithsonian is playing such an active role in this. First of all, the meteorite was brought to them for identification; the SI did not make some kind of power play to get it. And there is no indication that they are making a power play to keep it. From talking to their people right after the fall and when I visited this week, it's clear that they would be pleased if the meteorite ended up in the National Meteorite Collection. But I have not seen or read any evidence that they are in any way fighting to prevent others from getting it back, legally or politically. People should just relax and wait to see how this plays out before jumping to conclusions. Jeff On 2010-02-05 9:39 PM, Phil Whitmer wrote: Hiya Carl, gun lovers and haters: I was merely stating the law as it now stands. If a meteorite falls on your property, you own it. An open and shut case. If the Smithsonian wants to appeal to the Supreme Court, the Court could possibly rule that current meteorite laws are unconstitutional. It's extremely unlikely they would hear the case. It's highly unlikely even a Circuit judge would strike down current meteorite laws as unconstitutional. Or any judge for that matter. The Smithsonian has the lawyers and the funding of the federal gov't backing them, they could try to argue the laws are unconstitutional, highly unlikely as there is practically no chance they would win. What they could do is go straight to the President and get either a presidential decree or have the Justice Dep't write some memos like they did legalizing torture. Again not a chance. More likely they could get a Congressman to introduce a bill changing the meteorite laws, but it would never make it out of the first round of sub-committes. Possession might be nine tenths of the law, but I'll be dollars to donuts the Smithsonian gives it back. Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184 US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383 954 National Center Reston, VA 20192, USA __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite
Jeff, As always you say the right thing but I would like to see this litigated in this case due to the fact that these Doctors were in legal possession of the real estate and this is a Fall and not a find. These laws only mention finds and our hobby thinks there is a difference. As I asked before. This landed inside not on the dirt so it is not part of the soil which is very specifically stated in the law. It says the meteorite becomes part of the soil it was found in. Well this did not end up in soil. It ended up sitting on legally rented property. What if it hit a car and landed in the trunk of the car? Falls need laws if for no other reason than to help buyers such as the Smithsonian make an informed buying decision. Here is an interesting article. http://brightcoast.wordpress.com/2010/02/05/meteorite-law-are-tenants-lost-in-space/ And yet another link here shows the actual law as written in an abstract; http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=2002M%26PSB..375Sdb_key=ASTpage_ind=3data_type=GIFtype=SCREEN_VIEWclassic=YES -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax Jeff Grossman jgross...@usgs.gov wrote: I'm puzzled by why so many of you seem to think the Smithsonian is playing such an active role in this. First of all, the meteorite was brought to them for identification; the SI did not make some kind of power play to get it. And there is no indication that they are making a power play to keep it. From talking to their people right after the fall and when I visited this week, it's clear that they would be pleased if the meteorite ended up in the National Meteorite Collection. But I have not seen or read any evidence that they are in any way fighting to prevent others from getting it back, legally or politically. People should just relax and wait to see how this plays out before jumping to conclusions. Jeff On 2010-02-05 9:39 PM, Phil Whitmer wrote: Hiya Carl, gun lovers and haters: I was merely stating the law as it now stands. If a meteorite falls on your property, you own it. An open and shut case. If the Smithsonian wants to appeal to the Supreme Court, the Court could possibly rule that current meteorite laws are unconstitutional. It's extremely unlikely they would hear the case. It's highly unlikely even a Circuit judge would strike down current meteorite laws as unconstitutional. Or any judge for that matter. The Smithsonian has the lawyers and the funding of the federal gov't backing them, they could try to argue the laws are unconstitutional, highly unlikely as there is practically no chance they would win. What they could do is go straight to the President and get either a presidential decree or have the Justice Dep't write some memos like they did legalizing torture. Again not a chance. More likely they could get a Congressman to introduce a bill changing the meteorite laws, but it would never make it out of the first round of sub-committes. Possession might be nine tenths of the law, but I'll be dollars to donuts the Smithsonian gives it back. Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184 US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383 954 National Center Reston, VA 20192, USA __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite
But at the same point and time, who was liable for payment for the damage caused? Should they not be the ones to keep the material that caused the damage as they had to pay for the repair, they should keep what did it. The woman who was hit by the meteorite did not have the legal right to keep it, if I recall correctly, it was also a fall and not a find. The soil has been shown many times over to include what is ON the soil and often under it (unless you live in states that only allow you ownership to a certain depth and no mineral/mining rights) Greg Catterton www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com IMCA member 4682 On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites --- On Sat, 2/6/10, cdtuc...@cox.net cdtuc...@cox.net wrote: From: cdtuc...@cox.net cdtuc...@cox.net Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite To: Jeff Grossman jgross...@usgs.gov, meteoritelist meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Saturday, February 6, 2010, 12:57 AM Jeff, As always you say the right thing but I would like to see this litigated in this case due to the fact that these Doctors were in legal possession of the real estate and this is a Fall and not a find. These laws only mention finds and our hobby thinks there is a difference. As I asked before. This landed inside not on the dirt so it is not part of the soil which is very specifically stated in the law. It says the meteorite becomes part of the soil it was found in. Well this did not end up in soil. It ended up sitting on legally rented property. What if it hit a car and landed in the trunk of the car? Falls need laws if for no other reason than to help buyers such as the Smithsonian make an informed buying decision. Here is an interesting article. http://brightcoast.wordpress.com/2010/02/05/meteorite-law-are-tenants-lost-in-space/ And yet another link here shows the actual law as written in an abstract; http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=2002M%26PSB..375Sdb_key=ASTpage_ind=3data_type=GIFtype=SCREEN_VIEWclassic=YES -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax Jeff Grossman jgross...@usgs.gov wrote: I'm puzzled by why so many of you seem to think the Smithsonian is playing such an active role in this. First of all, the meteorite was brought to them for identification; the SI did not make some kind of power play to get it. And there is no indication that they are making a power play to keep it. From talking to their people right after the fall and when I visited this week, it's clear that they would be pleased if the meteorite ended up in the National Meteorite Collection. But I have not seen or read any evidence that they are in any way fighting to prevent others from getting it back, legally or politically. People should just relax and wait to see how this plays out before jumping to conclusions. Jeff On 2010-02-05 9:39 PM, Phil Whitmer wrote: Hiya Carl, gun lovers and haters: I was merely stating the law as it now stands. If a meteorite falls on your property, you own it. An open and shut case. If the Smithsonian wants to appeal to the Supreme Court, the Court could possibly rule that current meteorite laws are unconstitutional. It's extremely unlikely they would hear the case. It's highly unlikely even a Circuit judge would strike down current meteorite laws as unconstitutional. Or any judge for that matter. The Smithsonian has the lawyers and the funding of the federal gov't backing them, they could try to argue the laws are unconstitutional, highly unlikely as there is practically no chance they would win. What they could do is go straight to the President and get either a presidential decree or have the Justice Dep't write some memos like they did legalizing torture. Again not a chance. More likely they could get a Congressman to introduce a bill changing the meteorite laws, but it would never make it out of the first round of sub-committes. Possession might be nine tenths of the law, but I'll be dollars to donuts the Smithsonian gives it back. Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184 US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383 954 National Center Reston, VA 20192, USA __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit
[meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite
as unconstitutional. Or any judge for that matter. The Smithsonian has the lawyers and the funding of the federal gov't backing them, they could try to argue the laws are unconstitutional, highly unlikely as there is practically no chance they would win. What they could do is go straight to the President and get either a presidential decree or have the Justice Dep't write some memos like they did legalizing torture. Again not a chance. More likely they could get a Congressman to introduce a bill changing the meteorite laws, but it would never make it out of the first round of sub-committes. Possession might be nine tenths of the law, but I'll be dollars to donuts the Smithsonian gives it back. Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list -- Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184 US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383 954 National Center Reston, VA 20192, USA __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Previous message: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite Next message: [meteorite-list] Odd UNWA Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] More information about the Meteorite-list mailing list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock'
Thanks Shawn, that article is just the mindset we don't need in this country. I wrote a reply before realizing others had done so already... :0) Clear skies, Mark B. - Original Message From: Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wed, February 3, 2010 11:51:56 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock' Hello List, An artical today from The Washington Post on the Lorto Meteorite. Shawn Alan http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/02/AR2010020203028.html __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock'
It is interesting that some museums quote the UNESCO laws when it is in their favor but fail to mention it when it is not. I have not heard a thing about the laws that clearly state that in the United States, the meteorite belongs to the land owner, not the finder. You can't have it both ways. Best Regards, Adam - Original Message From: Mark Bowling mina...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 9:49:41 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock' Thanks Shawn, that article is just the mindset we don't need in this country. I wrote a reply before realizing others had done so already... :0) Clear skies, Mark B. - Original Message From: Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wed, February 3, 2010 11:51:56 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock' Hello List, An artical today from The Washington Post on the Lorto Meteorite. Shawn Alan http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/02/AR2010020203028.html __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock'
We should all be concerned about this law and not be complacent. Up until the 1980s the Communications Act of 1934 prohibited anyone from owning the electromagnetic spectrum. It was considered the peoples spectrum. During the 1980s the telecommunications industry bought off a corrupt and ignorant congress and FCC and had the laws rewritten. In that case the ownership by the people, I felt, was a good thing. After all those radio waves are constantly passing through our bodies and on our properties, so we should all have access to them. Instead of insisting on the industry encrypting their signals, it became illegal to descramble any radio or tv signals unless you paid some company. In the current view, the land owner does (and I believe should) have ownership of meteorites. We should all be vigilant that some politician or museum director does not start an effort to overturn this. All it takes is some money and a few greedy politicians (redundant I know). I don't see any immediate changes on the horizon, I'm just cautioning against complacency. George __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock'
Hi Adam, yah and the problem is, that very most meteorites on Earth do not meet the definition of cultural heritage of the 1970er UNESCO convention and the following convention UNIDROIT. Just take any lexicon or encyclopedia and look up the definition of culture. And consequently meteorites are protected in the UNESCO convention, clearly and unambiguously only, if they are mineral objects, which are a part of a scientific collection. (Says the convention, not me.) Problem is that article from McEwen Schmitt, who give a very extreme individual opinion - which in case, at least in my opinion, wouldn't be shared by any court. Talking about problems. Problem - f a country declares all meteorites across-the-board to be movable heritage in terms of the 1970er UNESCO convention, like e.g. Canada or Australia did, what is then with the meteorites from other countries kept in the museums and institutional collections? Well, that the UNIDROIT convention tells: They have to be given back or there must be a financial compensation given to the countries where they felt or were found - if these countries ask for it and if it can't be proven, that there were once legally exported (which is impossible in most cases, because before these laws discussion, noone would have had the idea, that one once could need papers for the meteorites). That is very dangerous - and I guess also a reason, why only a few countries will follow the Australian or Canadian line. Btw. a problem. I don't like, that such laws are mentioned only when they suit the plans. Look the Smithonian; Currently there is another stone on display. The Blue Wittelsbacher diamond. Since 1722 his ways through the different European royal houses is documented. A long time (there its name stems from) it was the largest and most important stone in the Bavarian crown jewels. A year ago (or were it already 2 years) it was auctioned off a private diamond dealer won (was to expensive for the Bavarian state). And I as Bavarian won't be able anymore to dance around that stone at our powwows, cause it's over the sea. So I would say, this mineralogical object is by all means an item in the highest rank of a movable cultural national heritage by definition of the UNESCO convention. Smithonian hasn't any objections to have it on display, therefor I doubt, that they could argue for the UNESCO convention in the Lorton case, where a stone without any human history just arrived from space. Prroblem's solution? Very simple - like so often, when we talk about meteorites. If they think it must be people's rock: Then Smithonion just should buy it and put in on display. (As it's common use with artifacts, art, fossils, minerals and quite all other exhibits too - there is no reason, why meteorites shall be the sole exception). Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam Hupe Gesendet: Donnerstag, 4. Februar 2010 19:47 An: Adam Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock' It is interesting that some museums quote the UNESCO laws when it is in their favor but fail to mention it when it is not. I have not heard a thing about the laws that clearly state that in the United States, the meteorite belongs to the land owner, not the finder. You can't have it both ways. Best Regards, Adam - Original Message From: Mark Bowling mina...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thu, February 4, 2010 9:49:41 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock' Thanks Shawn, that article is just the mindset we don't need in this country. I wrote a reply before realizing others had done so already... :0) Clear skies, Mark B. - Original Message From: Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wed, February 3, 2010 11:51:56 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock' Hello List, An artical today from The Washington Post on the Lorto Meteorite. Shawn Alan http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/02/AR2010020203 028.html __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock'
George, You make a very good point here. The question I have is why do you think this is so cut and dry. I mean one could argue that the doctors were in legal control of this rented office space at the time of the collision. Are they not renting the air space? I understand they do not own the building or the land but they do own legal right to the use of the property. Don't you think it should be up to the courts to decide who owns a visitor that lands on and subsequently inside the building? For an example of a similar situation; If a patient dropped say a dollar bill on the floor during a visit and walks out, does that dollar bill automatically become owned by the landlord? I think it might belong to the finder? Were the courts correct in their ruling in the Hodges case? I mean, if I got hit by a meteorite the least I should get is ownership. Maybe I'm wrong but, I am not the decider here. I think the courts should take a look at this case for clarification between legal usage and legal ownership issues. What if it had killed the doctor? Could the doctors wife sue based on the fact that the landlords own it whether they claim it or not? Because certainly if somebody slipped on a banana peel the landlord is safe from restitution by the injured and the liability should fall (no pun intended) on the tenants. I mean afterall they do have legal use of the space. I understand the current precedent goes to the land owner but, I think the question is basically a landlord tenant question. If in legal possession of the land and or air space. Who owns a rock that lands there? Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza Meteoritemax George Blahun Jr k...@att.net wrote: We should all be concerned about this law and not be complacent. Up until the 1980s the Communications Act of 1934 prohibited anyone from owning the electromagnetic spectrum. It was considered the peoples spectrum. During the 1980s the telecommunications industry bought off a corrupt and ignorant congress and FCC and had the laws rewritten. In that case the ownership by the people, I felt, was a good thing. After all those radio waves are constantly passing through our bodies and on our properties, so we should all have access to them. Instead of insisting on the industry encrypting their signals, it became illegal to descramble any radio or tv signals unless you paid some company. In the current view, the land owner does (and I believe should) have ownership of meteorites. We should all be vigilant that some politician or museum director does not start an effort to overturn this. All it takes is some money and a few greedy politicians (redundant I know). I don' t see any immediate changes on the horizon, I'm just cautioning against complacency. George __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Lorton meteorite should be 'the people's rock'
Hello List, An artical today from The Washington Post on the Lorto Meteorite. Shawn Alan http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/02/AR2010020203028.html __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite
hello I need a piece of the Lorton meteorite if available, a fragment or a thin slice matteo M come Meteorite Meteoriti i...@mcomemeteorite.it http://www.mcomemeteorite.it http://www.mcomemeteorite.org Mindat Gallery http://www.mindat.org/gallery-5018.html ChinellatoPhoto Servizi Fotografici http://www.chinellatophoto.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite Fall - Update: Fragmentation
Hi List, I've added some more information on the fragmentation of the Lorton bolide event to the post. Also, I've read about 3-4 witness account saying they saw a second smaller fireball after the one that produced the 308g Lorton meteorite that crashed through the roof of the doctors office. You can read the update here: http://www.meteoritesusa.com/meteorite-news/lorton-meteorite-fall/ Enjoy... Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA On 1/22/2010 11:48 AM, Meteorites USA wrote: Hi List, Here's some more info on the Lorton meteorite fall. I've compiled a good bit of information available on the web about our newest meteorite fall in the USA. If you guys would like more infomation bookmark this page as I'll be adding news and updates as more data becomes available. http://www.meteoritesusa.com/meteorite-news/lorton-meteorite-fall/ Enjoy... Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA www.meteoritesusa.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite Fall - Meteorite Smashes Through Roof!
Thanks, Eric for putting this page together! There was very little fanfare as this went( came) down. Now we know the rest of the story. Elton --- On Thu, 1/21/10, e...@meteoritesusa.com e...@meteoritesusa.com wrote: Here's my latest article (rather a conglomeration of information) ... ARTICLE: Lorton Meteorite Fall: http://www.meteoritesusa.com/meteorite-news/lorton-meteorite-fall/ Enjoy, Regards, Eric __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite
Shawn: Do they rent cars in New York? Amtrack probably runs between NYC and Washington DC if you are anywhere close. Greyhound Bus could be an option. If I was as close as you I would even consider hitch hiking. Good Luck. Jake --- On Fri, 1/22/10, Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Shawn Alan photoph...@yahoo.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Friday, January 22, 2010, 7:48 AM Hello List I saw this video on youtube and the Lorton Meteorite is the 4th Meteorite to fall in VA in the past 100 hundred years. The main mass so far is 308g and it has been noted that its a Chondrite meteorite. I wish I had a car because I live in NYC if I did I would be out in Lorton in a hot minute looking around for other pieces from the Lorton meteorite with the experts. Here is the link to the video I saw on youtube. Have fun. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wejD6FeDmoU Shawn Alan __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite Fall
Hi List, Here's some more info on the Lorton meteorite fall. I've compiled a good bit of information available on the web about our newest meteorite fall in the USA. If you guys would like more infomation bookmark this page as I'll be adding news and updates as more data becomes available. http://www.meteoritesusa.com/meteorite-news/lorton-meteorite-fall/ Enjoy... Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA www.meteoritesusa.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite Fall
P.S. If you find any information about the Lorton meteorite that's not listed in the article, let me know and I'll post it. Video, photos, audio, links, articles, anything... Send them over. Especially verification of the type and official classification. Regards, Eric On 1/22/2010 11:48 AM, Meteorites USA wrote: Hi List, Here's some more info on the Lorton meteorite fall. I've compiled a good bit of information available on the web about our newest meteorite fall in the USA. If you guys would like more infomation bookmark this page as I'll be adding news and updates as more data becomes available. http://www.meteoritesusa.com/meteorite-news/lorton-meteorite-fall/ Enjoy... Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA www.meteoritesusa.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite Fall
List: Here's a link to a Washington Post article. Greg S. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2010/01/22/DI2010012201975.html Here's Cari's answer to one of the questions South Hadley, Mass.: Is the meteorite an ordinary chondrite? Cari Corrigan: Yes, this meteorite is an ordinary chondrite. We are conducting analyses on it to determine its exact classification, but we are guessing it is either an L6 or an LL6. Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 12:11:54 -0800 From: e...@meteoritesusa.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite Fall P.S. If you find any information about the Lorton meteorite that's not listed in the article, let me know and I'll post it. Video, photos, audio, links, articles, anything... Send them over. Especially verification of the type and official classification. Regards, Eric On 1/22/2010 11:48 AM, Meteorites USA wrote: Hi List, Here's some more info on the Lorton meteorite fall. I've compiled a good bit of information available on the web about our newest meteorite fall in the USA. If you guys would like more infomation bookmark this page as I'll be adding news and updates as more data becomes available. http://www.meteoritesusa.com/meteorite-news/lorton-meteorite-fall/ Enjoy... Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA www.meteoritesusa.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390710/direct/01/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite Fall
Hi Greg and List, If it's an L-type OC, then the odds favor L6. Since 2000, we have had seven L6 falls versus five LL6 falls. Best regards, MikeG On 1/22/10, Greg Stanley stanleygr...@hotmail.com wrote: List: Here's a link to a Washington Post article. Greg S. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2010/01/22/DI2010012201975.html Here's Cari's answer to one of the questions South Hadley, Mass.: Is the meteorite an ordinary chondrite? Cari Corrigan: Yes, this meteorite is an ordinary chondrite. We are conducting analyses on it to determine its exact classification, but we are guessing it is either an L6 or an LL6. Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 12:11:54 -0800 From: e...@meteoritesusa.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite Fall P.S. If you find any information about the Lorton meteorite that's not listed in the article, let me know and I'll post it. Video, photos, audio, links, articles, anything... Send them over. Especially verification of the type and official classification. Regards, Eric On 1/22/2010 11:48 AM, Meteorites USA wrote: Hi List, Here's some more info on the Lorton meteorite fall. I've compiled a good bit of information available on the web about our newest meteorite fall in the USA. If you guys would like more infomation bookmark this page as I'll be adding news and updates as more data becomes available. http://www.meteoritesusa.com/meteorite-news/lorton-meteorite-fall/ Enjoy... Regards, Eric Wichman Meteorites USA www.meteoritesusa.com __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list _ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390710/direct/01/ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wejD6FeDmoU Enjoy --- Mike Bandli Historic Meteorites www.HistoricMeteorites.com IMCA #5765 --- __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Lorton Meteorite
Hello List I saw this video on youtube and the Lorton Meteorite is the 4th Meteorite to fall in VA in the past 100 hundred years. The main mass so far is 308g and it has been noted that its a Chondrite meteorite. I wish I had a car because I live in NYC if I did I would be out in Lorton in a hot minute looking around for other pieces from the Lorton meteorite with the experts. Here is the link to the video I saw on youtube. Have fun. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wejD6FeDmoU Shawn Alan __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
