Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Men - Where do the dollar valuescomefrom?
Hi Steve, Jason and List, I woke up this morning with the intention of writing a thoughtful reply to Steve's last post, but Jason Utas already beat me to it. I wasn't trying to be critical. I like the show a lot and have not missed an episode yet. My wife and I make time to watch it every Wednesday, and we enjoy it together. I have fun pointing out the people I know while watching the show. It's funny because Dr. Garvie recently invited me to come to ASU and smell their Murchison samples and then I said to my wife - Hey look, that's the guy who said I can come smell his meteorites., and she got a laugh out of that. It's fun a show and I hope it continues to be successful - not just for Steve and Geoff (which kudos to them), but for the whole meteorite community. But (you knew there was a but!), I have some reservations about the emphasis on dollar amounts. The network and producers know that nothing motivates the general public like money and that in this economy, treasure hunting is very popular. Let's face it, not everyone shares our sometimes-irrational love of space rocks. So I can imagine the network/producers (or whoever calls these types of shots) pushing for more emphasis on the profit angle of meteorite hunting - to keep the lay public interested and watching the show. That angle alone won't snag new viewers who are completely uninterested in meteorites, but it may convince a few who are sitting on the fence to watch. Jason and Steve, you both raise good points. Something is only worth what someone will pay for it. I once paid $100 for a 1mg speck of Sylacauga. That is an astounding $100,000.00 a gram. But, I seriously doubt I could sell a 1-gram fragment of Sylacauga for $100K. We may know the ways of the market and how collectors spend their money, but the general lay public does not. Those of us reading this on the List, we know what Steve and Jason just said is true. But I can imagine a newbie watching the show and walking away with the idea that he can find a half-million dollar rock (that is not a planetary and weighs less than 1 kilo) in the desert and actually get that much money for it at auction from Christies or some other big auction house. We know the realities of the market - some of the viewers probably do not. It would be nice to hear Steve or Geoff mention something along the lines of what Steve just posted - that yes, the specimen is worth that much, but it will probably never bring that much from a sale. The only way a million-dollar (or half-million dollar) meteorite is going to bring in that much money is if the owner insures it, then it burns up in a house fire, and the insurance company cuts a big check for it. As for Tagish Lake - only a government would pay that kind of money for something. Most private individuals couldn't afford to fork over almost a million dollars for a 800-gram briquette. In the US, the finder of that 800 gram specimen would still be sitting on it and hoping for a sale someday. (or an insured house fire) Don't get me wrong. I am not picking on Sonny's awesome specimen. That is truly an amazing find and any meteorite hunter would cream himself upon finding it. The only thing better would be if Sonny found the first US lunaite. And my dollar amount gripe was specifically targeted at Sonny's CM1. Even those dry lake bed weathered chondrites seem overpriced at $1.50 a gram or $2 a gram. I guess they are probably worth that much now because they have been on TV, but I can buy prettier weathered ordinary-chondrites from NWA for a 20 cents a gram. A collector looking for a cool rock that was on TV and was found by a famous meteorite hunter will pay extra for an OC from Meteorite Men - but most collectors who buy weathered OC's are also the types who look for bargains and will buy the stones that cost .20 cents a gram and pass on the more expensive ones, regardless of their connection to TV. Heck, I just traded 100 grams of trinitite for 4000 grams of weathered uNWA stones. I won't say what my cost on trinitite is, but I can say that the batch of uNWA I traded for is prettier than the dry lake bed specimens (for the most part, I do have some UGLY ones though) and my cost was less than $1 a gram - substantially less. (FWIW, the ugliest ones are going into a rock tumbler) I just don't want this emphasis on dollar values to come back and bite us in the ass. I can imagine Steve (or any hunter) going up to some landowner and attempting to broker a deal to hunt on the land, and the landowner will expect $10,000 for every 100-gram OC that is pulled out of the dirt on his land - because there is an inflated sense of what these stones are worth. On the List, we know that a meteorite's stated value often has an asterisk next to it, and I think it's important that the general public knows that as well. Best regards and happy huntings, MikeG On 2/18/10, meteorh...@aol.com meteorh...@aol.com wrote: Jason, I agree
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Men - Where do the dollar valuescomefrom?
In my last post there was a typo - My post said - And my dollar amount gripe was specifically targeted at Sonny's CM1. I meant to say - And my dollar amount gripe was NOT specifically targeted at Sonny's CM1. On 2/18/10, Galactic Stone Ironworks meteoritem...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Steve, Jason and List, I woke up this morning with the intention of writing a thoughtful reply to Steve's last post, but Jason Utas already beat me to it. I wasn't trying to be critical. I like the show a lot and have not missed an episode yet. My wife and I make time to watch it every Wednesday, and we enjoy it together. I have fun pointing out the people I know while watching the show. It's funny because Dr. Garvie recently invited me to come to ASU and smell their Murchison samples and then I said to my wife - Hey look, that's the guy who said I can come smell his meteorites., and she got a laugh out of that. It's fun a show and I hope it continues to be successful - not just for Steve and Geoff (which kudos to them), but for the whole meteorite community. But (you knew there was a but!), I have some reservations about the emphasis on dollar amounts. The network and producers know that nothing motivates the general public like money and that in this economy, treasure hunting is very popular. Let's face it, not everyone shares our sometimes-irrational love of space rocks. So I can imagine the network/producers (or whoever calls these types of shots) pushing for more emphasis on the profit angle of meteorite hunting - to keep the lay public interested and watching the show. That angle alone won't snag new viewers who are completely uninterested in meteorites, but it may convince a few who are sitting on the fence to watch. Jason and Steve, you both raise good points. Something is only worth what someone will pay for it. I once paid $100 for a 1mg speck of Sylacauga. That is an astounding $100,000.00 a gram. But, I seriously doubt I could sell a 1-gram fragment of Sylacauga for $100K. We may know the ways of the market and how collectors spend their money, but the general lay public does not. Those of us reading this on the List, we know what Steve and Jason just said is true. But I can imagine a newbie watching the show and walking away with the idea that he can find a half-million dollar rock (that is not a planetary and weighs less than 1 kilo) in the desert and actually get that much money for it at auction from Christies or some other big auction house. We know the realities of the market - some of the viewers probably do not. It would be nice to hear Steve or Geoff mention something along the lines of what Steve just posted - that yes, the specimen is worth that much, but it will probably never bring that much from a sale. The only way a million-dollar (or half-million dollar) meteorite is going to bring in that much money is if the owner insures it, then it burns up in a house fire, and the insurance company cuts a big check for it. As for Tagish Lake - only a government would pay that kind of money for something. Most private individuals couldn't afford to fork over almost a million dollars for a 800-gram briquette. In the US, the finder of that 800 gram specimen would still be sitting on it and hoping for a sale someday. (or an insured house fire) Don't get me wrong. I am not picking on Sonny's awesome specimen. That is truly an amazing find and any meteorite hunter would cream himself upon finding it. The only thing better would be if Sonny found the first US lunaite. And my dollar amount gripe was specifically targeted at Sonny's CM1. Even those dry lake bed weathered chondrites seem overpriced at $1.50 a gram or $2 a gram. I guess they are probably worth that much now because they have been on TV, but I can buy prettier weathered ordinary-chondrites from NWA for a 20 cents a gram. A collector looking for a cool rock that was on TV and was found by a famous meteorite hunter will pay extra for an OC from Meteorite Men - but most collectors who buy weathered OC's are also the types who look for bargains and will buy the stones that cost .20 cents a gram and pass on the more expensive ones, regardless of their connection to TV. Heck, I just traded 100 grams of trinitite for 4000 grams of weathered uNWA stones. I won't say what my cost on trinitite is, but I can say that the batch of uNWA I traded for is prettier than the dry lake bed specimens (for the most part, I do have some UGLY ones though) and my cost was less than $1 a gram - substantially less. (FWIW, the ugliest ones are going into a rock tumbler) I just don't want this emphasis on dollar values to come back and bite us in the ass. I can imagine Steve (or any hunter) going up to some landowner and attempting to broker a deal to hunt on the land, and the landowner will expect $10,000 for every 100-gram OC that is pulled out of the dirt on his land
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Men - Where do the dollar valuescomefrom?
Jason, I agree getting $700,000 in green bills is a long shot, but if it can be traded for, say 14 items each in the $50,000 range, and those could be converted to green cash, is it wrong to say it is worth that. Need I remind everyone that the finder of the Tagish Lake 800 gram rock (similar in size and composition as Sonny's) got $800,000 in Canadian money for his find. Sonny is in the business, and as such, he really might realize $700k for his CM1 rock over time. Could he take it to a pawn shop in vegas and get $700,000? No, I would think not. But if someone else finds a CM1 here in the US and wants to sell theirs for $72/g ($50,000 / 699g) then cool. Steve Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel -Original Message- From: Jason Utas meteorite...@gmail.com Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:29:05 To: Meteorite-listmeteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Men - Where do the dollar values comefrom? Hell Mike, Steve, and List, Right, but you're applying the price per gram that would apply to small pieces in retail to a much larger stone. A single gram may be worth a thousand dollars (in this case, it's probably justified, given what comparable material is known to sell for), but the simple fact of the matter is that it would take decades to sell off 700 grams at that price in small pieces. Ask any dealer who's held a stable asking price for material for which they are the only source. As a complete stone, I estimate that the highest offer on it would reach $60-70,000. Don't get me wrong - it could sell for more, but...it's wholesale. Yes, it might be worth more in a sense, but I believe that the general consensus here has always been that these rocks are worth what people were willing to pay for them. I haven't asked Sonny, but based on what I know of the market, I doubt that he's gotten an offer as high as 100k for it. He might well get a better offer, but that would make it one of the more costly meteorites to actually sell - in the past decade. So, no. I think it's safe to say that $700,000 is not close to a reasonable estimate. Even if you assume $1000/g for smaller pieces, you're not taking cutting losses into account, which would take it to at most $500k, or thereabouts, and it would take so long to sell that simply stating a price like that is rather deceptive. There's a reason that the asking price for the 420kg Fukang main mass is in the 2-3 million dollar range (about $5-6/g), as opposed to being $16.8 million. Fukang may be worth $40/g. That doesn't mean that a large piece is worth that much. And the same principle applies across the board - a single acre of land will run you more per acre than will an acre of land in a hundred-acre parcel. And if you buy ten cars from a dealer, they'll probably give you something of a discount, whereas if you buy only one...not so much. I appreciate the optimistic quote from the market's perspective, but...it's just not reasonable to say that the rock is worth that much when it wouldn't fetch that on the market. Jason On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 7:40 PM, meteorh...@aol.com wrote: Hi MikeG and List, In this episode, Sony's CM1 is one of only two found outside of Antarctica. The other one, as I understand, sold out quickly at several thousand dollars per gram. Sony has placed a value of $1,000 per gram thus the estimation of his 699g rock at $700,000 is probably reasonable for a US find. I was quoted as saying these ordinary chondrite pieces were probably worth $1 per gram but I will probably list them on eBay for $5 per gram (for the 2-10g size pieces) and see how they do. Steve Arnold Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel -Original Message- From: Galactic Stone Ironworks meteoritem...@gmail.com Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:11:37 To: metorma...@aol.com Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Men - Where do the dollar values come from? Hi Folks, Is it just me, or do the dollar values for some of the meteorites shown on Meteorite Men seem a little inflated? This is not a criticism, but just a straight question. As a collector and part-time dealer, the prices given for some of these specimens seems a bit on the optimistic side. From a dealer's perspective, if the public thinks a meteorite is worth more than it actually is, the dealer charge more for them. From a hunter's perspective, if the public thinks a meteorite is worth more than it actually is, they can have unrealistic expectations for what their rocks are worth. Steve has spoken about this on the List previously, because landowners will have unrealistic expectations of what their specimens are worth - and this gives hunters fits who are trying to buy specimens or cut deals with landowners. So, where exactly are these dollar values coming from? Who is setting them and putting them on the screen during