Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
Hi, Doug, Hijacking your nice thread again... The tektites in Tikal didn't find their way there by any other means than falling out of the sky. They have been found in the temples, anciently collected, and one much more degraded one has been found in the forests surrounding. Alan Hildebrandt dated them and they fall right into the upper end of the dating spread for Australite/ Indochinite tektites, which, surprise! they look just exactly like. Grab your globe and give it a twirl. Tikal's antipodal point is on the western edge of the Australo-Asian strewn field. Likewise, an Ivorite was recovered from off shore of the Australian coast. equally antipodal to Ivory Coast, unless you think the currents carried it there -:) laughing... Casa Grande was found in 1867: A mass of 3407lb was found in an ancient tomb, E.G. Tarayre (1867). L. Fletcher (1890) implies that this mass was presented to the Smithsonian Institution in 1876. First Description, W. Tassin (1902). Analysis, 7.74 %Ni, G.P. Merrill (1913). Historical note, O.E. Monnig (1939)... Somebody asked for referrences on meteorite collecting by early American cultures (Maybe Ed). Here's one about Hopewell meteorite collecting, except it goes on to discuss dozens of other cultures, locales, and meteorites including Casa Grandes. It's a nice piece of work by Olaf Prufer: https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/1811/4817/1/V61N06_341.pdf No surprize, H. H. Nininger wrote METEORITE COLLECTING AMONG ANCIENT AMERICANS in 1938. That paper can be found at: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-7316(193807)4%3A1%3C39%3AMCAAA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-W but it's where no mere mortal without official access can view it... You can read the first page, though, which is enough to see that it covers much the same ground as the paper previously cited (up above this one) which you can get to see (and download). Handing the thread back to you, Doug. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Whe, Martin, thanks for the kind comments -- I re-read my post, your words and by all means did take one comment very much to heart. I'm guilty as charged for not giving further consideration to other meteoritically interested cultures between those Germanic and ancients. I think Ed would be the better expert in that department on this side of the Atlantic. You speak of the Aztecs as a culture with as rich of a treatment of things meteoritic as the medieval traditions in your lands... I'd like to know more about that. I'd be interested in knowing what meteorites the Aztecs venerated, feared, deified, or imbued with magical qualities. Are you perhaps thinking of Xocotl the Aztec god of fire and Dark and occult side of planet Venus? I think he was more likey born spewn from a volcano, of which there are many in his territory, or as legend goes, a ball of feathers fell in a temple his virgin mother then bore him and others. So Xocotl's mother may have been fertilized by a meteorite in a stretch of faith (the feathers could be thought of as cometary)...but these are much further musings than others I've made:-) Maybe your reference is meant to consider the over 1.5 ton Casas Grandes Iron meteorite mummy found in the ruins of the temple of a mysterious peoples of Mexico and carted out to Philadelphia, USA. I say mysterious peoples as I don't think you can call them Aztecs with certainty, and they may actually be somewhat Navajo. Unfortunately, the information on that culture is so scant, circumstantial and too inconclusive. But the Casas Grandes meteorite had fallen tens of thousands of years before that region was populated. Thus, at best, one can imagine that it was appreciated for its heft and unique nearly indestructable properties. The reason I'm not sure we can call that culture Aztec, is because the business end of the great Aztec empire was generally disconnected and geographically no where near the southern limits of that mysterious culture, to make tribute payments to the empire. In fact, it seems to just mysteroiusly vanished without battle before the Spanish first appeared anywhere on the scene. There is contentious speculaion that that particular culture was from northern New Mexico near Colorado, and Ed may be able to add more on that subject. It seems to me they were their own independent culture eventually centered in Paquimé, Chihuahua, very close to El Paso TX - Juarez MX, where the meteorite was dug up. Hopefully we can learn more, but anything new will be an uphill battle the way the evidence is so limited and thus dominated more by speculations. I am not aware of too much shared divinity evidence though a minimal amount is no doubt common
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
-- And Bill just summed it up in three sentences better than either of us, I think... -- - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 8:56 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Sterling wrote: 1739-1740 War of Jenkins' Ear And [the USA's] certainly never managed to have a war as magnificently named as The War of Jenkins' Ear! Now, that's how to name a war! Clear, concise, and everybody knows exactly what it's all about. Hey Sterling, Hah! remember studies in Western Civ - between Physics and philosophy class :-) -, really, the USA has darn well so managed to have a war equally magnificient in name as the War of Jenkin's Ear. It was called The War of Jenkin's Ear; Same Jenkins - and it wasn't Jenkin's other ear. Don't forget that Jenkin's ear was supposedly severed in the Americas, and he was as English as George Washington at the time. So I'd Argue that not only did the Americans participate in that war - they also started it. Not to mention the USA started the funiest named war of all: The Quasi-War as thanks to the French right after the French supported the American Independence effort. That particular Jenkin's Ear war in the 1740's is actually the same war that was contracted by the European continent and spread to Bohemia and resulted in the French tossing the Elbogen Iron meteorite down the to the bottom of the Bohemian well where it rusted for 40 years. It was a small world back then, too. In the USA, in the great American State of Georgia, the military general who founded Georgia wasted no time to marshal his proud Savannah compatriots and adventurous Charlestonians out of South Carolina to pillage everything from Jacksonville, Florida to St. Augustine, and that was only openers. Oh the United States has had oogles more practically nameless wars than you give it credit for in those years. They don't Google easily out of a database like your nice European ones, but they were bloodier if Indians are men considered equal in the eyes of the Creator. You've got to consider that in Europe all those wars were spread among 20-30 countries. How many Indian real nations do you think the singular USA trounced in a religious ferver to achieve its destiny? The USA is a nation that was perpetually at war on its own and its extended frontiers. There are more Indian wars alone, than Indian nations that yielded in defeat against the cleansing of the continent from Atlantic to Pacific. Take Florida, which heaped war upon wars, genocide and forced relocation. Or maybe Missouri - if the Indians had caught on quicker, you might be living in a teepee today, or at least your neighbor :-) As for the lack of colorful names of wars in the USA even without considering who started the War of Jenkin's Ear, does Europe have a Battle of Little Bighorn, which is a battle the war easily can assume for the name, and really was the fight leading to the demise of a race of people? If that isn't enough, how about the Gipper's Star Wars, who has one of those programs besides George Lucas? And I am convinced that the US participated as a silent partner in the infamous Football War, as well... Best wishes, Doug (no slights to any nation, no offense; we are who we are and I can live with that just fine, until someone else tosses a spectacular iron in a well to fester. Guess the Evian was too depleted in minerals for their taste) thread truncated... __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
Hi Sterling, 1-The fact that the French army wanted to enrage the Bohemians by tossing the Elbogen iron meteorite in the well is indisputable. This meteorite is Grade A Prime cultural heritage for Bohemia where many ethnic Germans lived and was ethnically a contested territory in my understanding. The French actions were part of the hostilities kicked off by the War of Jenkins' Ear which morphed into that of Austrian Succession there. The exciting point being that Germans/Bohemians had a cultural appreciation of meteorites which truly raptures my imagination with pride, cultural curiousity and a transfer of a certain degree of magic in my mind's eye, due to my own fascination with steel from space. 2- My mention of the then Governer of Georgia, Gen. Oglethorpe's bellicose expedition of Georgians and Carolinians was to bring to your attention this large American campaign in the War of Jenkins' Ear, intended to correct your statement that Americans never had the odd pleasure of partaking in that euphonious war (Soundly put!). Nothing much I can do about wars despite my heart's desires, other than hope I would not be called to participate in them. I really have absolutely no opinions or desire to think about human intraspecies' inhumanity. I'll tender a request for a favor that my kindly hijacked thread be returned to romantic, fantasy and other fictional books on meteorites. I have to admit to believing that anything goes in a discussion group, but was unhappy that a thread on romantic and adventure novels with meteorites in their plots turned into a discussion of how Europe had more and longer wars than the USA. :-( ! . ... to imagine the relationship between Caledfwlch, Gram, Hrunting, Naegling, the Magical Giant Sword that slew Grendel's mother, so difficult to hoist or lift up is a recurring theme, and meteorites, which held a special fascination in Germanic cultures and craftmanships is very amazing, though. The stone Ensisheim, which fell in German territory at the time was recognized by the German Emperor in 1492 to have come from the sky, and ordered conserved thanks to him. It is interesting that the civilized world didn't really accept that rock fell from space until L'Aigle pummeled the last holdouts in France more than 300 years later, like a thunder fromThor's hammer. With the greatest respect to France, who seem to have been ahead of the Americans (one can easily imagine that the Americans followed the French lead), I believe the Franco-Germanic relationship strongly colored the French acceptance of meteoritical phenomena and gets to the heart of meteorite status in the milieu. I.e., I bet in the 1740's part of the reason the Elbogen meteorite got such harsh treatment was due to the memory of Ensisheim having been declared a favorable German icon to unite in the war against France, and that Generally that Germans attributed mystical powers to meteorites like no other culture since the ancients. I think the French were strongly influenced by the widespread meteorite reverance thoughout Germanic cultures (take Grimms' tales and Martin's stories of the converted burgrave on Elbogen, and German fascination with hammers, axes and metal in general and a its possible relationship to meteoritic iron), which provided resistance to recognizing that meteorites really did come from heaven as their competing Germanic neighbors believed... Best wishes, Doug - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: MexicoDoug [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:04 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Hi, Doug, Martin, List, Operating on the principle that the longer I talk, the more likely my chance to really annoy someone becomes, I snipped a lot of sentences out of what I originally wrote. The history of the USA up until 1900-1910 is best described as a kind of ongoing conflict, somewhat short of formal war. I was going to say that, so no disagreement there. In fact, the history of most nations can be so described with some accuracy. Even with Martin's addition of a few hundred more wars for Europe, there's a background of conflict that generates them. The Serbian obsession with Kosovo, its ancient homeland, dates from a conquest late in the first millennium AD of the people who still live there, the Illyrians, or rather their descendents, who were there before the first millennium BC, which makes the Serbian historical claim look a little silly. But these ethnic histories solve nothing; one has only to look at the Middle East to have that demonstrated. Such arguments over who is exclusively entitled to the land are endless, unending, and productive of nothing but carnage, even between folks as completely and totally indistinguishable as two Irishmen
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
Oops Doug, Thou shalt not over-interpret. I can't find any increased interest in nor any cultural reception of meteorites in German history, transcending those in other countries. Meteorites were vulgar superstition, in best case they were kept in cabinets as curiosities (and later after Enlightment thrown to trash). In the Grimm collection of folk tales, the Elbogen chunk isn't mentioned as felt from sky and it's only one story of a metamorphosis of many others (in this case an addendum of the tale, where some dwarves were turned into stones). Nor aren't there many stones left from pre-1800, nor was meteoritics a monopole of german scientists. There were many more from French, Poland, Russia... And if you want to ride the nationalistic horse, Chladni is a Slovak (or was it Slovene name), hehe. Science always was international, always. Remember the times of the islamic occupation in Spain, where for centuries people bashed their heads in, but on the other hand, the Islamic scientists were authorities in the christian literature like the old Greeks and the Church Fathers. Perhaps a difference is, that Chladni collected reports from old falls, naturally a lot from German sources too, but I'm sure, that if one would study the chronicles in other languages and countries, there are also a lot to be found. (recently someone sent me a cool fireball report from a local Church's chronicle from 17th century). And if you refer to the Ensisheim stone, remember the pamphlets following the fall, where that fall was taken for an evil omen. Thus following the hysterical tradition, that all uncommon phenomena in nature would be bad signs of God's wrath - and in this respect, Europe is quite unique, because, as far as I know, in all other cultures, where meteorites are mentioned (or found), meteorites never had bad connotations. and that Generally that Germans attributed mystical powers to meteorites like no other culture since the ancients. See above and certainly not: Indonesia, Mongolia, Japan, the Inuit, the American Indians, for the Aztecs, Inka ect, you have to look, Arabia and so on I guess quite everywhere meteorites were venerated or at least used for tools or jewellery. Would be a nice new thread! Has anyone pictures of the bracelets of meteoritic iron from 7th-5th century b.C. in the museum of Czestochowa Rakow in Poland, Marcin? Eh and Doug, there wasn't any German national identity until 19th century. And go a little bit back, Charlemagne, were where there the French, where the Germans? It was always multi-ethnical. The racism, if I let the history of colonisation aside and the exaggerated nationalism was rather an invention of the 19th century. And thus I guess Sterling and me didn't want to depress you, as there is hope, for at least some parts on the globe. Meanwhile we are living in a much more communicative, mobile (and hedonistic?) world, in Europe people remember the high price they had to pay for nationalistic insanity, a little bit bad is, that the principle of Cold War had worked well... At least Doug, the preconditions are somewhat better, than they were ever before. Let's have new thread. Pre A.D. 1800 meteoritics! Dirk tell us about Asia! Norbert, Australia? Marie-Pelé France? Serguej, Russia? Andrzej Poland. Rob, da Commonwealth? Christian KK meteorites. Manjoi - India! Joern Germany. Africa? Doug - Middle America And so on! Buckleboo! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von MexicoDoug Gesendet: Montag, 27. November 2006 11:54 An: Sterling K. Webb Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Hi Sterling, 1-The fact that the French army wanted to enrage the Bohemians by tossing the Elbogen iron meteorite in the well is indisputable. This meteorite is Grade A Prime cultural heritage for Bohemia where many ethnic Germans lived and was ethnically a contested territory in my understanding. The French actions were part of the hostilities kicked off by the War of Jenkins' Ear which morphed into that of Austrian Succession there. The exciting point being that Germans/Bohemians had a cultural appreciation of meteorites which truly raptures my imagination with pride, cultural curiousity and a transfer of a certain degree of magic in my mind's eye, due to my own fascination with steel from space. 2- My mention of the then Governer of Georgia, Gen. Oglethorpe's bellicose expedition of Georgians and Carolinians was to bring to your attention this large American campaign in the War of Jenkins' Ear, intended to correct your statement that Americans never had the odd pleasure of partaking in that euphonious war (Soundly put!). Nothing much I can do about wars despite my heart's desires, other than hope I would not be called to participate in them. I really have absolutely no opinions or desire to think about human intraspecies' inhumanity. I'll tender
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
German icon to unite in the war against France, and that Generally that Germans attributed mystical powers to meteorites like no other culture since the ancients. I think the French were strongly influenced by the widespread meteorite reverance thoughout Germanic cultures (take Grimms' tales and Martin's stories of the converted burgrave on Elbogen, and German fascination with hammers, axes and metal in general and a its possible relationship to meteoritic iron), which provided resistance to recognizing that meteorites really did come from heaven as their competing Germanic neighbors believed... Best wishes, Doug - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: MexicoDoug [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:04 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Hi, Doug, Martin, List, Operating on the principle that the longer I talk, the more likely my chance to really annoy someone becomes, I snipped a lot of sentences out of what I originally wrote. The history of the USA up until 1900-1910 is best described as a kind of ongoing conflict, somewhat short of formal war. I was going to say that, so no disagreement there. In fact, the history of most nations can be so described with some accuracy. Even with Martin's addition of a few hundred more wars for Europe, there's a background of conflict that generates them. The Serbian obsession with Kosovo, its ancient homeland, dates from a conquest late in the first millennium AD of the people who still live there, the Illyrians, or rather their descendents, who were there before the first millennium BC, which makes the Serbian historical claim look a little silly. But these ethnic histories solve nothing; one has only to look at the Middle East to have that demonstrated. Such arguments over who is exclusively entitled to the land are endless, unending, and productive of nothing but carnage, even between folks as completely and totally indistinguishable as two Irishmen. United Statesians (so as to avoid the over-broad usage of Americans) mostly have what is so often called a naive view: Why doesn't everybody just forget about settling the score for the past and try to work on solving the problems that exist NOW? The scorn of the sophisticated not withstanding, there is a another name for this: SANITY. If the price of this mental health is to be achieved by, say, modern Europeans, acting as if THEY never had a war, being morally superior to those so backward as to get stuck in conflicts, well, sanity is worth that. That IS the idea -- to dump the past. History, said James Joyce a century ago, is a nightmare I'm trying to wake up from. does Europe have a Battle of Little Bighorn, which... was the fight leading to the demise of a race of people? Duh. Yeah! And the Sioux (and all the other tribes that participated in an INDIAN victory there) still exist, no thanks to General Custer, just as Jews still exist, no thanks to... We weren't going to drag up the past, were we? if the Indians had caught on quicker... American natives caught on right away. They each and all sat in council about what to do about the odd newcomers from the very year they first showed up! Every strategy you can imagine was tried. It's common- place to present these centuries of native statecraft as if they all sat there like idiots until the late 1800's, but that notion is what is really demeaning. A delay of a potential annihilation for centuries is a major achievement; there are innumerable spots around the globe where indigenous peoples have been destroyed in a decade or three. As for uniting scores, even hundreds, of nations with no common language, belief, or culture, ask Tecumseh about how that worked out... The real war was epidemiological. The Black Death made its way into North America ahead of the Europeans, in the 15th century, and was followed shortly by a flood of new European diseases in the next century. Europeans, in person, were entering devastated and de-populated lands everywhere in the New World, north and south. Not that they weren't trying to kill the locals, just that their efforts were puny compared to what the microbes (whose existence both sides were unaware of) accomplished. It's hard to slow down an invasion when your own population is reduced by up to 90%! I'm sorry you were so upset by General Oglethorpe and the Battle of Bloody Marsh, Doug, but I will remind you that it took place after Jerkins carted his ear-in-a-jar up to the British Parliment and got Walpole to declare the Ear War. Had the fortunes of war fallen differently
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
mention from the enlightenment to Chladni's time for things meteoritic, I'd say be careful not to be a fish in a fishbowl who doesn't appreciate the water that surrounds him as we thirsty and envious cats are looking in with our saucery eyes for a bite to eat. Take explorers as recent as Baron Alexander von Humboldt, who I think recovered meteoritical iron originally from Chupaderos Mexico most probably a few short months _before_ the French fall in L'Aigle reached him. Then, he went to visit his good friend Thomas Jefferson in Washington for several weeks they managed to socialize many, many stimulating hours their mutual satisfaction, and I fully suspect that Jefferson would have been given the opportunity to see this, after their extensive scientific and social discussions. Interestingly, L'Aigle must have been old news to Baron von Humboldt once he traveled from Mexico to Washington DC, and Humboldt was certainly up on the geological sciences from France (as a matter of fact he and Jefferson even corresponded in French on ocassion). This puts a different perspective entirely on Jefferson's famous satirical Yankee comments, especially knowing the master politician and skilled manipulator of the press in the new anarchy called representative democracy he delighted in. The Secretary of State had to offer the Baron a visa and permit to carry many scientific samplings from Latin America, Any more info you might have here? Would this have been discussed? Was the iron meteorite actually collected in 1803 by Humboldt, part of the bill of lading, or did it somehow get into his possession at a later date?? What was it initially thought to be before further studies back home in Germany? These are burning questions. Humboldt helped Jefferson enough to plan together the expedition for the Lousiana Purchase, and how to collect, I wonder if they corresponded in 1807 about the Weston fall? I even live near a nice street named after Humboldt in Mexico. Less than five short years in Latin America...the records of his 12 months of travels throughout Mexico are no doubt archived with great precision somewhere in Berlin and in scattered reprints in Mexico. Which street in Munich is named after a Mexican explorer :-) ? Best wishes, Doug - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'MexicoDoug' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 7:33 AM Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Oops Doug, Thou shalt not over-interpret. I can't find any increased interest in nor any cultural reception of meteorites in German history, transcending those in other countries. Meteorites were vulgar superstition, in best case they were kept in cabinets as curiosities (and later after Enlightment thrown to trash). In the Grimm collection of folk tales, the Elbogen chunk isn't mentioned as felt from sky and it's only one story of a metamorphosis of many others (in this case an addendum of the tale, where some dwarves were turned into stones). Nor aren't there many stones left from pre-1800, nor was meteoritics a monopole of german scientists. There were many more from French, Poland, Russia... And if you want to ride the nationalistic horse, Chladni is a Slovak (or was it Slovene name), hehe. Science always was international, always. Remember the times of the islamic occupation in Spain, where for centuries people bashed their heads in, but on the other hand, the Islamic scientists were authorities in the christian literature like the old Greeks and the Church Fathers. Perhaps a difference is, that Chladni collected reports from old falls, naturally a lot from German sources too, but I'm sure, that if one would study the chronicles in other languages and countries, there are also a lot to be found. (recently someone sent me a cool fireball report from a local Church's chronicle from 17th century). And if you refer to the Ensisheim stone, remember the pamphlets following the fall, where that fall was taken for an evil omen. Thus following the hysterical tradition, that all uncommon phenomena in nature would be bad signs of God's wrath - and in this respect, Europe is quite unique, because, as far as I know, in all other cultures, where meteorites are mentioned (or found), meteorites never had bad connotations. and that Generally that Germans attributed mystical powers to meteorites like no other culture since the ancients. See above and certainly not: Indonesia, Mongolia, Japan, the Inuit, the American Indians, for the Aztecs, Inka ect, you have to look, Arabia and so on I guess quite everywhere meteorites were venerated or at least used for tools or jewellery. Would be a nice new thread! Has anyone pictures of the bracelets of meteoritic iron from 7th-5th century b.C. in the museum of Czestochowa Rakow in Poland, Marcin? Eh and Doug, there wasn't any German national identity until 19th century. And go a little bit back
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
time for things meteoritic, I'd say be careful not to be a fish in a fishbowl who doesn't appreciate the water that surrounds him as we thirsty and envious cats are looking in with our saucery eyes for a bite to eat. Take explorers as recent as Alexander von Humboldt, who I think recovered meteoritical iron from Chupaderos MX most probably a few short months _before_ the French fall in L'Aigle reached him. Then, he went to visit his good friend Thomas Jefferson in Washington for several weeks they managed to socialize many, many stimulating hours their mutual satisfaction, and I fully suspect that Jefferson would have been given the opportunity to see this, after their extensive scientific and social discussions. Interestingly, L'Aigle must have been old news to Baron von Humboldt once he traveled from Mexico to Washington DC, and Humboldt was certainly up on the geological sciences from France (as a matter of fact he and Jefferson even corresponded in French on ocassion). This puts a different perspective entirely on Jefferson's famous satirical Yankee comments, especially knowing the master politician and skilled manipulator of the press in the new anarchy he delighted in. The Secretary of State had to offer the Baron a visa and permit to carry many scientific samplings from Latin America, Any more info you might have here? Would this have been discussed? Was the iron meteorite actually collected in 1803 by Humboldt, part of the bill of lading, or did it somehow get into his possession at a later date?? These are burning questions. Humboldt helped Jefferson enough to plan together the expedition for the Lousiana Purchase, and how to collect, I wonder if they corresponded in 1807 about the Weston fall? I even live near a nice street named after Humboldt in Mexico. Less than five short years in Latin America...the records of his 12 months of travels throughout Mexico are no doubt archived with great precision somewhere in Berlin and in scattered reprints in Mexico. Which street in Munich is named after a Mexican explorer :-) ? Best wishes, Doug - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'MexicoDoug' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 7:33 AM Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Oops Doug, Thou shalt not over-interpret. I can't find any increased interest in nor any cultural reception of meteorites in German history, transcending those in other countries. Meteorites were vulgar superstition, in best case they were kept in cabinets as curiosities (and later after Enlightment thrown to trash). In the Grimm collection of folk tales, the Elbogen chunk isn't mentioned as felt from sky and it's only one story of a metamorphosis of many others (in this case an addendum of the tale, where some dwarves were turned into stones). Nor aren't there many stones left from pre-1800, nor was meteoritics a monopole of german scientists. There were many more from French, Poland, Russia... And if you want to ride the nationalistic horse, Chladni is a Slovak (or was it Slovene name), hehe. Science always was international, always. Remember the times of the islamic occupation in Spain, where for centuries people bashed their heads in, but on the other hand, the Islamic scientists were authorities in the christian literature like the old Greeks and the Church Fathers. Perhaps a difference is, that Chladni collected reports from old falls, naturally a lot from German sources too, but I'm sure, that if one would study the chronicles in other languages and countries, there are also a lot to be found. (recently someone sent me a cool fireball report from a local Church's chronicle from 17th century). And if you refer to the Ensisheim stone, remember the pamphlets following the fall, where that fall was taken for an evil omen. Thus following the hysterical tradition, that all uncommon phenomena in nature would be bad signs of God's wrath - and in this respect, Europe is quite unique, because, as far as I know, in all other cultures, where meteorites are mentioned (or found), meteorites never had bad connotations. and that Generally that Germans attributed mystical powers to meteorites like no other culture since the ancients. See above and certainly not: Indonesia, Mongolia, Japan, the Inuit, the American Indians, for the Aztecs, Inka ect, you have to look, Arabia and so on I guess quite everywhere meteorites were venerated or at least used for tools or jewellery. Would be a nice new thread! Has anyone pictures of the bracelets of meteoritic iron from 7th-5th century b.C. in the museum of Czestochowa Rakow in Poland, Marcin? Eh and Doug, there wasn't any German national identity until 19th century. And go a little bit back, Charlemagne, were where there the French, where the Germans? It was always multi-ethnical. The racism, if I let the history of colonisation aside
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
Hi, Doug, Hijacking your nice thread again... The tektites in Tikal didn't find their way there by any other means than falling out of the sky. They have been found in the temples, anciently collected, and one much more degraded one has been found in the forests surrounding. Alan Hildebrandt dated them and they fall right into the upper end of the dating spread for Australite/ Indochinite tektites, which, surprise! they look just exactly like. Grab your globe and give it a twirl. Tikal's antipodal point is on the western edge of the Australo-Asian strewn field. Likewise, an Ivorite was recovered from off shore of the Australian coast. equally antipodal to Ivory Coast, unless you think the currents carried it there -:) laughing... Casa Grande was found in 1867: A mass of 3407lb was found in an ancient tomb, E.G. Tarayre (1867). L. Fletcher (1890) implies that this mass was presented to the Smithsonian Institution in 1876. First Description, W. Tassin (1902). Analysis, 7.74 %Ni, G.P. Merrill (1913). Historical note, O.E. Monnig (1939)... Somebody asked for referrences on meteorite collecting by early American cultures (Maybe Ed). Here's one about Hopewell meteorite collecting, except it goes on to discuss dozens of other cultures, locales, and meteorites including Casa Grandes. It's a nice piece of work by Olaf Prufer: https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/1811/4817/1/V61N06_341.pdf No surprize, H. H. Nininger wrote METEORITE COLLECTING AMONG ANCIENT AMERICANS in 1938. That paper can be found at: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-7316(193807)4%3A1%3C39%3AMCAAA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-W but it's where no mere mortal without official access can view it... You can read the first page, though, which is enough to see that it covers much the same ground as the paper previously cited (up above this one) which you can get to see (and download). Handing the thread back to you, Doug. Sterling K. Webb - - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Whe, Martin, thanks for the kind comments -- I re-read my post, your words and by all means did take one comment very much to heart. I'm guilty as charged for not giving further consideration to other meteoritically interested cultures between those Germanic and ancients. I think Ed would be the better expert in that department on this side of the Atlantic. You speak of the Aztecs as a culture with as rich of a treatment of things meteoritic as the medieval traditions in your lands... I'd like to know more about that. I'd be interested in knowing what meteorites the Aztecs venerated, feared, deified, or imbued with magical qualities. Are you perhaps thinking of Xocotl the Aztec god of fire and Dark and occult side of planet Venus? I think he was more likey born spewn from a volcano, of which there are many in his territory, or as legend goes, a ball of feathers fell in a temple his virgin mother then bore him and others. So Xocotl's mother may have been fertilized by a meteorite in a stretch of faith (the feathers could be thought of as cometary)...but these are much further musings than others I've made:-) Maybe your reference is meant to consider the over 1.5 ton Casas Grandes Iron meteorite mummy found in the ruins of the temple of a mysterious peoples of Mexico and carted out to Philadelphia, USA. I say mysterious peoples as I don't think you can call them Aztecs with certainty, and they may actually be somewhat Navajo. Unfortunately, the information on that culture is so scant, circumstantial and too inconclusive. But the Casas Grandes meteorite had fallen tens of thousands of years before that region was populated. Thus, at best, one can imagine that it was appreciated for its heft and unique nearly indestructable properties. The reason I'm not sure we can call that culture Aztec, is because the business end of the great Aztec empire was generally disconnected and geographically no where near the southern limits of that mysterious culture, to make tribute payments to the empire. In fact, it seems to just mysteroiusly vanished without battle before the Spanish first appeared anywhere on the scene. There is contentious speculaion that that particular culture was from northern New Mexico near Colorado, and Ed may be able to add more on that subject. It seems to me they were their own independent culture eventually centered in Paquimé, Chihuahua, very close to El Paso TX - Juarez MX, where the meteorite was dug up. Hopefully we can learn more, but anything new will be an uphill battle the way the evidence is so limited and thus dominated more by speculations. I am not aware of too much shared
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
Hi Sterling, There were hundreds more, here only a few to add to your list. No year without war... 1342-1346 Thuringia feud of earls 1360-1365 1st Hanseatic War 1370-1388 War of the Lueneburg Succession 1398-1408 Appenzell Wars 1412Flailers War 1419-1432 Hussitic Wars 1423-1430 1st Venetian-Turkish War 1436-1450 Old Zurich War 1446-1451 Saxonian fratricidal War 1449-1451 1st War of Margraves 1461-1462 Baden-Palatinate War 1463-1479 2nd Venetian-Turkish War 1474-1477 Burgundy Wars 1494-1559 Great Italian Wars 1499 Swabian War 1499-1503 2nd Venetian-Turkish War 1520-1521 Comuneros Rebellion 1521-1523 Swedish Liberation War 1521-1526 Ottoman-Hungarian War 1522-1523 Palatine Knight Rebellion 1524-1526 German Peasant War 1526-1555 Austro-Venetian-Turkish War 1526-1538 Hungarian Civil War 1531 Swiss Civil War 1534-1536 The Counts' Feud (Denmark) 1546-1547 Schmalkaldian War 1552-1557 2nd War of Margraves 1562-1563 1st Huguenot War 1563-1570 Northern Seven Year's War 1566-1568 2nd Austro-Turkish War 1567-1568 2nd Huguenot War 1568-1570 3rd Huguenot War 1570-1573 5th Ventian-Turkish War 1572-1573 4th Huguenot War 1574-1580 Huguenot Wars #4-#7 1580-1583 Portuguese Civil War 1583-1588 Truchsessian War 1585-1590 8th Huguenot War 1593-1615 3rd Austro-Ottoman War 1595-1597 2nd Austrian Peasant War 1598-1629 1st Swedish-Polish War 1609-1618 1st Russian-Polish War 1611-1613 Kalmar War 1613-1617 Swedish-Russian War 1614-1621 Polish-Turkish War 1624-1654 Dutch-Portuguese War 1626 Autrian Peasant War 1629-1631 Succession War of Mantua 1632-1634 2nd Russo-Polish War 1635-1639 Pyrenees War 1643-1645 Torstensson War 1645-1669 6th Venetian-Turkish War 1652-1654 1st Anglo-Dutch War 1654-1656 3rd Russo-Polish War 1654-1660 Anglo-Spanish War 1655-1661 Northern Wars 1657-1668 Spanish-Portuguese War 1658-1667 4th Russo-Polish War 1659-1668 Restoration War 1663-1664 4th Austro-Turkish War 1665-1667 2nd Anglo-Dutch War 1671-1676 Polish-Turkish War 1672-1674 3rd Anglo-Dutch War 1672-1678 French-Dutch War 1674-1678 Swedish-Brandenburg Wars 1675-1679 Scanian War 1683-1699 5th Austro-/1st Russo-/ 7th Venetian Turkish War 1688-1697 War of the Grand Alliance 1695-1700 2nd Russo-Turkish War Well, so I guess we have only to tell to those Taliban on both sides in Northern-Ireland to go to that hell, they're believing in, to show to the Basques, that they can proceed with their folklore in peace, as the Bavarians did, when they were sold to the Prussians, to instruct the few rassistic idiots on Balkan, not to do it again, and for that Hitler from Belarus the UN should buy an exile in Switzerland, And then it will look quite good. How to get that together with meteorites? Those endless battles made it very difficult to hunt with detectors in Europe for meteorites. Peaceful Weekend! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Sterling K. Webb Gesendet: Sonntag, 26. November 2006 02:34 An: 'MexicoDoug'; Martin Altmann; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Martin Altmann said: There were always wars, wars, wars... funny enough, people now ranting about the European Union always forget... 1337-1453 Hundred Years' War 1455-1485 Wars of the Roses 1496-1499 Russo-Swedish War of 1496-1499 1522-1559 Habsburg-Valois Wars 1554-1557 Russo-Swedish War of 1554-1557 1558-1583 Livonian War 1568-1648 Eighty Years' War 1590-1595 Russo-Swedish War of 1590-1595 1594-1603 Nine Years' War (Ireland) 1610-1617 Ingrian War 1618-1648 Thirty Years' War 1641-1649 Wars of Castro 1641-1653 Irish Confederate Wars 1642-1651 English Civil War 1644-1650 Scottish Civil War 1656-1658 Russo-Swedish War of 1656-1658 1667-1668 War of Devolution 1667-1683 Great Turkish War 1688-1691 Williamite War in Ireland 1700-1721 Great Northern War 1701-1713 War of the Spanish Succession 1733-1738 War of the Polish Succession 1739-1740 War of Jenkins' Ear 1740-1748 War of the Austrian Succession 1741-1743 Russo-Swedish War of 1741-1743 1756-1763 Seven Years' War 1788-1790 Russo-Swedish War of 1788-1790 1789-1799 French Revolution 1798 Irish Rebellion of 1798 1792-1815 Napoleonic Wars 1808-1809 Finnish War 1848-1866 Italian Independence wars 1848-1849 First Italian Independence War 1859 Second Italian Independence War 1866 Third Italian Independence War 1854-1856 Crimean War 1866-1866 Austro-Prussian War 1870-1871 Franco-Prussian War 1877-1878 Russo-Turkish War 1893-1896 Cod War of 1893 1897 First Greco-Turkish War 1912-1913 Balkan Wars 1914-1918 World War I 1916 Easter Rising 1917-1920 Estonian Liberation War 1918-1919 Czechoslovakia-Hungary War 1918 Finnish Civil War 1918-1920 Russian Civil War 1919-1921 Irish War of Independence 1922-1923 Irish Civil War 1936-1939 Spanish Civil War 1939-1940 Winter War 1939-1945 World War II 1958 First Cod War 1972-1973 Second Cod War 1974 Turkish Invasion of Cyprus 1975-1976 Third Cod War 1994-1996 First Chechen
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
Couldn't let this topic pass by without making a post. One of the most fantastic books in my library is Hector Servadac by Jules Verne. In it a comet is picking up part of the Earth (with some inhabitants) and brings it along on a fantastic journey. The interesting thing isn't the journey in it self, but the description of the different people that went along. All from the great french officers, stubborn brittish and a crooked jew. I gives a nice view of what the mindset was among the people in Europe late in the 19:th century. Full text in French : http://jv.gilead.org.il/zydorczak/ser00.htm ... or in English from Project Gutenberg http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/1353 ... kind of explains the many wars we have had in Europe... to connect on another topic discussed here. :-) /Göran MexicoDoug wrote: Hello Listees, again, ...today, I imagine several cheering their Cheshire grins and feeding their fattened guts...sitting on the sofa and still smacking the lips like the cat that swallowed little Tweety... Right or wrong, it's said there's something fulfilling for the man that can do three things before he dies: Have a Son, Write a book, and Plant a tree...(wheew - lot of work left to do) I'm sure I've missed more books than I've listed which are fictional novels relating somehow to meteorites, but here are two more (the second one is an online ditty) written by list member which have special reasons not to be left out, ADVENTURES OF DIANA: THE UNDERWORLD by Jim Balister Popular Action book off the presses recently which follows a plain-Jane girl named Diana loses her job, and while looking for a new one meets the love of her life, David, who happens to be a meteorite collector, among other things. At one point they spot a fireball and try to recover it. One day, in this sweet midwestern American boredom, the Earth takes a turn unexpectedly and quake hits, followed by every extraterrestrial, governmental plague and monsterous vermin that can be thrown at its inhabitants, including Diana. With the help of a geologist, Diana goes down a pit where they find a flying saucer that kidnaps them, one mishap and incredible recovery takes place after another, the upper and lower worlds, with almost all their monsters and creatures facing destruction. But then Diana meets someone important and she yearns to reestablish her life and settle down with David... STAR MONEY by the Bros. Altmann (jeje) A short fable summarized by our very favorite Germans, based on the original which was probably much older than the 1803 L'Aigle fall itself. Gives great insight to cultural fantasies of the significance of meteorites in the deep recesses of human thought. Interestingly, in an odd twist, it personifies what we all yearn in meteorite hunting in one form or another...READ THE ENGLISH translation free here, no need to buy the book, compiled by the namsake of Chladni's heirs: Story featured in Nation Geographic: http://www.nationalgeographic.com/grimm/star_money2.html Best wishes, Doug - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 4:30 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] List of Meteorite novels for gifts Hola Listees, Thanks very kindly for the meteorite fictional book ideas many of you kindly sent in response to my post the other day. I thought I would post a summary in case anyone else was looking for gift ideas for friends family or loved ones. First, I'll tell you the book I decided to get for a special person (just received today!!!), followed by a list of other books (for which I owe thanks to everyone who helped me out on and off list): Winner: STARDUST, (Spanish Title: Lluvia de Estrellas = Meteor Shower-) by Neil Gaiman This is a romantic fantasy about the faeries and struck ones in the nicest sense. While it seems like it is written for children, the naughty author has the meteorite curse after her painful atmospheric entry, and there is a bit of steamy sex to whet some folks appetites... Two cultures somewhere in the English countryside are divided by a wall every day except one in 9 years. An adventurous young man with an interesting birthright is with the prettiest girl in the nondescript human village inside the stone wall. Victoria owns his heart, but, she doesn't care much for Tristran. They gaze into the sky when witnessing the ground shaking and thunder accompanying a shooting star. It begins as a small light, but quickly outshines the Moon and brilliantly falls somewhere on the other side of the wall, where there are enchanted meadows, trees and their inhabitants. The young man Tristran is so blinded by love that he somehow becomes obsessed with the labor to recover the fallen star and bring it to her to win her heart and live happily ever after. Only, he has lots of
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
Hi, Doug, Martin, List, Operating on the principle that the longer I talk, the more likely my chance to really annoy someone becomes, I snipped a lot of sentences out of what I originally wrote. The history of the USA up until 1900-1910 is best described as a kind of ongoing conflict, somewhat short of formal war. I was going to say that, so no disagreement there. In fact, the history of most nations can be so described with some accuracy. Even with Martin's addition of a few hundred more wars for Europe, there's a background of conflict that generates them. The Serbian obsession with Kosovo, its ancient homeland, dates from a conquest late in the first millennium AD of the people who still live there, the Illyrians, or rather their descendents, who were there before the first millennium BC, which makes the Serbian historical claim look a little silly. But these ethnic histories solve nothing; one has only to look at the Middle East to have that demonstrated. Such arguments over who is exclusively entitled to the land are endless, unending, and productive of nothing but carnage, even between folks as completely and totally indistinguishable as two Irishmen. United Statesians (so as to avoid the over-broad usage of Americans) mostly have what is so often called a naive view: Why doesn't everybody just forget about settling the score for the past and try to work on solving the problems that exist NOW? The scorn of the sophisticated not withstanding, there is a another name for this: SANITY. If the price of this mental health is to be achieved by, say, modern Europeans, acting as if THEY never had a war, being morally superior to those so backward as to get stuck in conflicts, well, sanity is worth that. That IS the idea -- to dump the past. History, said James Joyce a century ago, is a nightmare I'm trying to wake up from. does Europe have a Battle of Little Bighorn, which... was the fight leading to the demise of a race of people? Duh. Yeah! And the Sioux (and all the other tribes that participated in an INDIAN victory there) still exist, no thanks to General Custer, just as Jews still exist, no thanks to... We weren't going to drag up the past, were we? if the Indians had caught on quicker... American natives caught on right away. They each and all sat in council about what to do about the odd newcomers from the very year they first showed up! Every strategy you can imagine was tried. It's common- place to present these centuries of native statecraft as if they all sat there like idiots until the late 1800's, but that notion is what is really demeaning. A delay of a potential annihilation for centuries is a major achievement; there are innumerable spots around the globe where indigenous peoples have been destroyed in a decade or three. As for uniting scores, even hundreds, of nations with no common language, belief, or culture, ask Tecumseh about how that worked out... The real war was epidemiological. The Black Death made its way into North America ahead of the Europeans, in the 15th century, and was followed shortly by a flood of new European diseases in the next century. Europeans, in person, were entering devastated and de-populated lands everywhere in the New World, north and south. Not that they weren't trying to kill the locals, just that their efforts were puny compared to what the microbes (whose existence both sides were unaware of) accomplished. It's hard to slow down an invasion when your own population is reduced by up to 90%! I'm sorry you were so upset by General Oglethorpe and the Battle of Bloody Marsh, Doug, but I will remind you that it took place after Jerkins carted his ear-in-a-jar up to the British Parliment and got Walpole to declare the Ear War. Had the fortunes of war fallen differently, why, you would be walking the picturesque calles de Neuvo Atlanta, capitol of Las Floridas del Norte, while avoiding the camera-toting USian tourists in their garish shirts and plastic flip-flops... I would love to kick around the causes of the five-day Football War with you, Doug, but I think that it breaks the tenuous chain that links Jenkins' ear to a wet meteorite in a moat surrounded by mocking Frenchmen! Sterling K. Webb -- And Bill just summed it up in three sentences better than either of us, I think... -- - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 8:56 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Sterling wrote: 1739-1740 War of Jenkins' Ear And [the USA's] certainly never managed to have a war as magnificently named as The War of Jenkins' Ear! Now, that's how to name a war! Clear, concise, and everybody knows exactly what it's all about. Hey
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
Hi Doug, so flagrant is my commercialism not. Yes, I do have a slice of Elbogen left for sale, but I guess, if you'd ask Dieter Heinlein, you would pay 10$ less per gram. For the spelling of uncle Alois I always find two variants: Widmanstätten (with a single n and the German letter for the diphthong, the a with the 2 dots above) or Beck-Widmannstetter. Which one was more in use? I don't know. We have to ask the list-members from Austria to look in the specific biographical lexika. There still exists several descendants today, they spell themselves Beckh-Widmannstetter. Ehm, Doug, the story with the font is different. It's the most famous and incredible meteorite legend in history. Be prepared! There was a prophecy about the Burggraf-Klumpen. It said, whenever it will be let down into the font of Loket castle, it will come up again. Well, so once it was let down in the font, and after a while, they tore him out gain. Spooky, isn't it Doug? I forgot where I read that story and also why the chunk was hidden at which opportunity. Whether it was in the Napoleonic wars, or whether Wallenstein wanted to found bullets out of it, whether some Hussites were hiding it... There were always wars, wars, wars...funny enough, people now ranting about the European Union always forget, in what for a privileged situation they're living. 60 years without greater wars. Buckleboo! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von MexicoDoug Gesendet: Freitag, 24. November 2006 22:32 An: Martin Altmann Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II OK, Martin, Nice post, I'm convinced that, if I can ever possess a specimen of Elbogen, I won't have any choice than to acquire it from one of Chladni's authentic airs.:-) You mentioned our Widmannstaetten: Alois Beck Edler von Widmannstetter I was very curious about the spelling you used, an alternate from that which we are accustomed...Can you tell us Teutonically challenged volks a little about the reason for this difference? Ahhh, and those kind and ever-so-considerate Frenchmen. Why do you suppose they would have mocked so cruelly their Bohemian hosts by spitefully lifting up the unliftable Elbogen iron meteorite and tossing it into a well to languish there for decades? Was it simply with the arrogance to say, Non, nous'sommes non so greed, louky, devons-nous procéder à toss your rrrevered Cloompain to zz bottom of z pit where he can hhhrrust avayoui oui , ou la l, Kaput et Voilà La Boheme!!No wonder the Austrians taught those savage beastly French a lesson in humility and kicked them out on their derrières shortly afterward... for which the French rewarded them later by overrunning Munich. Well being the Francophile I am, and still astonished this could happen, I must say in their defense that the French Secret Order of the Guardians of Ensisheim has brought back great honor and civility upon their countrymen after that fateful moment of the aggression of Elbogen... Best wishes, Doug PS nice post Matthias, too! - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'MexicoDoug' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 2:42 PM Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Hola Doug, yah and the Grimm brothers weren't only collectors of tales, but titans of linguistics in writing the first modern comprehensive German dictionary. Btw. Widmannstetter used Elbogen for his direct printing of his famous Thopmson structures. Goethe celebrated his 75th birthday on the castle of Elbogen (Loket), I'm not sure, whether he saw the Klumpen still there. Anyway, when ha was young and visited the stone of Ensisheim in the church, he made pubertal fooling about the people being so superstitious. Again, if once Vassiliev won't be so busy anymore, he has to found a meteorite fair on Loket castle. Nice counterpart to Ensisheim. Huh, I think I'm a capital sinner, I don't think, that I would be able to lift a Klumpen of more than 2 hundredweights... At least in the stories (there exist another version of the Burggraf metamorphosis) there are some slight meteoritical appeals: Thunder, Sounds, light, a pit... Buckleboo! Martin PS: There must be another story from that Klumpen, that it was hidden in the font of the castle - perhaps during the Napoleonic wars? -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: MexicoDoug [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Freitag, 24. November 2006 20:08 An: Martin Altmann Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Hi Martin, Thanks for the Buckleboo! It had become such a familiar part of the list, like an attention-getting favorite family member I started to miss it Now, whoever said German couldn't be a consonant language, hasn't read enough of Klumpen
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
Alois von Widmanstätten * 12. 7. 1754 Graz , ? 10. 6. 1849 Vienna Greetings from Graz Stefan Hi Doug, so flagrant is my commercialism not. Yes, I do have a slice of Elbogen left for sale, but I guess, if you'd ask Dieter Heinlein, you would pay 10$ less per gram. For the spelling of uncle Alois I always find two variants: Widmanstätten (with a single n and the German letter for the diphthong, the a with the 2 dots above) or Beck-Widmannstetter. Which one was more in use? I don't know. We have to ask the list-members from Austria to look in the specific biographical lexika. There still exists several descendants today, they spell themselves Beckh-Widmannstetter. Ehm, Doug, the story with the font is different. It's the most famous and incredible meteorite legend in history. Be prepared! There was a prophecy about the Burggraf-Klumpen. It said, whenever it will be let down into the font of Loket castle, it will come up again. Well, so once it was let down in the font, and after a while, they tore him out gain. Spooky, isn't it Doug? I forgot where I read that story and also why the chunk was hidden at which opportunity. Whether it was in the Napoleonic wars, or whether Wallenstein wanted to found bullets out of it, whether some Hussites were hiding it... There were always wars, wars, wars...funny enough, people now ranting about the European Union always forget, in what for a privileged situation they're living. 60 years without greater wars. Buckleboo! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von MexicoDoug Gesendet: Freitag, 24. November 2006 22:32 An: Martin Altmann Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II OK, Martin, Nice post, I'm convinced that, if I can ever possess a specimen of Elbogen, I won't have any choice than to acquire it from one of Chladni's authentic airs.:-) You mentioned our Widmannstaetten: Alois Beck Edler von Widmannstetter I was very curious about the spelling you used, an alternate from that which we are accustomed...Can you tell us Teutonically challenged volks a little about the reason for this difference? Ahhh, and those kind and ever-so-considerate Frenchmen. Why do you suppose they would have mocked so cruelly their Bohemian hosts by spitefully lifting up the unliftable Elbogen iron meteorite and tossing it into a well to languish there for decades? Was it simply with the arrogance to say, Non, nous'sommes non so greed, louky, devons-nous procéder à toss your rrrevered Cloompain to zz bottom of z pit where he can hhhrrust avayoui oui , ou la l, Kaput et Voilà La Boheme!!No wonder the Austrians taught those savage beastly French a lesson in humility and kicked them out on their derrières shortly afterward... for which the French rewarded them later by overrunning Munich. Well being the Francophile I am, and still astonished this could happen, I must say in their defense that the French Secret Order of the Guardians of Ensisheim has brought back great honor and civility upon their countrymen after that fateful moment of the aggression of Elbogen... Best wishes, Doug PS nice post Matthias, too! - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'MexicoDoug' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 2:42 PM Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Hola Doug, yah and the Grimm brothers weren't only collectors of tales, but titans of linguistics in writing the first modern comprehensive German dictionary. Btw. Widmannstetter used Elbogen for his direct printing of his famous Thopmson structures. Goethe celebrated his 75th birthday on the castle of Elbogen (Loket), I'm not sure, whether he saw the Klumpen still there. Anyway, when ha was young and visited the stone of Ensisheim in the church, he made pubertal fooling about the people being so superstitious. Again, if once Vassiliev won't be so busy anymore, he has to found a meteorite fair on Loket castle. Nice counterpart to Ensisheim. Huh, I think I'm a capital sinner, I don't think, that I would be able to lift a Klumpen of more than 2 hundredweights... At least in the stories (there exist another version of the Burggraf metamorphosis) there are some slight meteoritical appeals: Thunder, Sounds, light, a pit... Buckleboo! Martin PS: There must be another story from that Klumpen, that it was hidden in the font of the castle - perhaps during the Napoleonic wars? -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: MexicoDoug [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Freitag, 24. November 2006 20:08 An: Martin Altmann Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Hi Martin, Thanks for the Buckleboo! It had become such a familiar part of the list, like an attention-getting favorite family member I started to miss it Now, whoever
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
Hi Stefan, aeiou-encyclopedia on the page of TU Graz says: Widmanstätten (Beck-Widmannstetter), Alois von, b. Graz (Styria), July 12, 1754, d. Vienna, June 10, 1849, natural scientist. Inherited his family's printing firm, (founded in Graz in 1585); director of the spinning-mill at Pottendorf from 1804-1807; director of the Emperor Franz I's Cabinet for Manufactured Goods (Fabriksproduktenkabinett) from 1807-1815. I mean, that was still a time, where the spelling of names, wasn't fixed as strictly as today. Google for: Beckh-Widmannstetter And ask the persons, you'll get out with this name, how great-great-...-great-grampa wrote his name. Better we say Thompson structure... eee...Thomson? Martyn Böckelbuh -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von Stefan Brandes Gesendet: Samstag, 25. November 2006 20:49 An: Meteorite-list Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Alois von Widmanstätten * 12. 7. 1754 Graz , ? 10. 6. 1849 Vienna Greetings from Graz Stefan Hi Doug, so flagrant is my commercialism not. Yes, I do have a slice of Elbogen left for sale, but I guess, if you'd ask Dieter Heinlein, you would pay 10$ less per gram. For the spelling of uncle Alois I always find two variants: Widmanstätten (with a single n and the German letter for the diphthong, the a with the 2 dots above) or Beck-Widmannstetter. Which one was more in use? I don't know. We have to ask the list-members from Austria to look in the specific biographical lexika. There still exists several descendants today, they spell themselves Beckh-Widmannstetter. Ehm, Doug, the story with the font is different. It's the most famous and incredible meteorite legend in history. Be prepared! There was a prophecy about the Burggraf-Klumpen. It said, whenever it will be let down into the font of Loket castle, it will come up again. Well, so once it was let down in the font, and after a while, they tore him out gain. Spooky, isn't it Doug? I forgot where I read that story and also why the chunk was hidden at which opportunity. Whether it was in the Napoleonic wars, or whether Wallenstein wanted to found bullets out of it, whether some Hussites were hiding it... There were always wars, wars, wars...funny enough, people now ranting about the European Union always forget, in what for a privileged situation they're living. 60 years without greater wars. Buckleboo! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von MexicoDoug Gesendet: Freitag, 24. November 2006 22:32 An: Martin Altmann Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II OK, Martin, Nice post, I'm convinced that, if I can ever possess a specimen of Elbogen, I won't have any choice than to acquire it from one of Chladni's authentic airs.:-) You mentioned our Widmannstaetten: Alois Beck Edler von Widmannstetter I was very curious about the spelling you used, an alternate from that which we are accustomed...Can you tell us Teutonically challenged volks a little about the reason for this difference? Ahhh, and those kind and ever-so-considerate Frenchmen. Why do you suppose they would have mocked so cruelly their Bohemian hosts by spitefully lifting up the unliftable Elbogen iron meteorite and tossing it into a well to languish there for decades? Was it simply with the arrogance to say, Non, nous'sommes non so greed, louky, devons-nous procéder à toss your rrrevered Cloompain to zz bottom of z pit where he can hhhrrust avayoui oui , ou la l, Kaput et Voilà La Boheme!!No wonder the Austrians taught those savage beastly French a lesson in humility and kicked them out on their derrières shortly afterward... for which the French rewarded them later by overrunning Munich. Well being the Francophile I am, and still astonished this could happen, I must say in their defense that the French Secret Order of the Guardians of Ensisheim has brought back great honor and civility upon their countrymen after that fateful moment of the aggression of Elbogen... Best wishes, Doug PS nice post Matthias, too! - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'MexicoDoug' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 2:42 PM Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Hola Doug, yah and the Grimm brothers weren't only collectors of tales, but titans of linguistics in writing the first modern comprehensive German dictionary. Btw. Widmannstetter used Elbogen for his direct printing of his famous Thopmson structures. Goethe celebrated his 75th birthday on the castle of Elbogen (Loket), I'm not sure, whether he saw the Klumpen still there. Anyway, when ha was young and visited the stone of Ensisheim in the church, he made pubertal fooling about the people being so superstitious. Again, if once Vassiliev
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
Thank you Martin and Doug for all your efforts to let us know about certain literatures. And I hope you two will meet some day, or have you? I am sure you will enjoy each others company, you certainly make me smile when I read your posts to each other. Happy Saturday, Moni :-) PS. Just started to read Meteorites, Ice, and Antarctica, after that I will choose one of your choices. Thanks! _ Fixing up the home? Live Search can help http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improvelocale=en-USsource=hmemailtaglinenov06FORM=WLMTAG __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
Martin Altmann said: There were always wars, wars, wars... funny enough, people now ranting about the European Union always forget... 1337-1453 Hundred Years' War 1455-1485 Wars of the Roses 1496-1499 Russo-Swedish War of 1496-1499 1522-1559 Habsburg-Valois Wars 1554-1557 Russo-Swedish War of 1554-1557 1558-1583 Livonian War 1568-1648 Eighty Years' War 1590-1595 Russo-Swedish War of 1590-1595 1594-1603 Nine Years' War (Ireland) 1610-1617 Ingrian War 1618-1648 Thirty Years' War 1641-1649 Wars of Castro 1641-1653 Irish Confederate Wars 1642-1651 English Civil War 1644-1650 Scottish Civil War 1656-1658 Russo-Swedish War of 1656-1658 1667-1668 War of Devolution 1667-1683 Great Turkish War 1688-1691 Williamite War in Ireland 1700-1721 Great Northern War 1701-1713 War of the Spanish Succession 1733-1738 War of the Polish Succession 1739-1740 War of Jenkins' Ear 1740-1748 War of the Austrian Succession 1741-1743 Russo-Swedish War of 1741-1743 1756-1763 Seven Years' War 1788-1790 Russo-Swedish War of 1788-1790 1789-1799 French Revolution 1798 Irish Rebellion of 1798 1792-1815 Napoleonic Wars 1808-1809 Finnish War 1848-1866 Italian Independence wars 1848-1849 First Italian Independence War 1859 Second Italian Independence War 1866 Third Italian Independence War 1854-1856 Crimean War 1866-1866 Austro-Prussian War 1870-1871 Franco-Prussian War 1877-1878 Russo-Turkish War 1893-1896 Cod War of 1893 1897 First Greco-Turkish War 1912-1913 Balkan Wars 1914-1918 World War I 1916 Easter Rising 1917-1920 Estonian Liberation War 1918-1919 Czechoslovakia-Hungary War 1918 Finnish Civil War 1918-1920 Russian Civil War 1919-1921 Irish War of Independence 1922-1923 Irish Civil War 1936-1939 Spanish Civil War 1939-1940 Winter War 1939-1945 World War II 1958 First Cod War 1972-1973 Second Cod War 1974 Turkish Invasion of Cyprus 1975-1976 Third Cod War 1994-1996 First Chechen War 1991 War in Slovenia 1991-1995 Croatian War of Independence 1992-1995 War in Bosnia and Herzegovina 1996-1999 Kosovo War 1999-present Second Chechen War 2001 Conflict in Macedonia 2001 Conflict in Southern Serbia Only 63 wars in 500 years, or one every 7.94 years. Eleven wars in 33 years (1912-1945) is probably a world record. Doesn't count wars that Europeans participated in that didn't take place IN Europe (otherwise the list would be 120, 150, or 200 wars long). I feel totally abashed. The USA has only had 14 or 15 wars in 225 years, if you count our War for Independency, John Adams' undeclared naval war on France in 1798, two wars with Barbary pirates, the Whiskey Rebellion (whiskey lost, BTW), and all the wars we participated in that were outside the United States. We've never managed to have a war 100 years long or even 30 years long (although we seem to be trying to do that in Iraq). And we've certainly never managed to have a war as magnificently named as The War of Jenkins' Ear! Now, that's how to name a war! Clear, concise, and everybody knows exactly what it's all about. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'MexicoDoug' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Hi Doug, so flagrant is my commercialism not. Yes, I do have a slice of Elbogen left for sale, but I guess, if you'd ask Dieter Heinlein, you would pay 10$ less per gram. For the spelling of uncle Alois I always find two variants: Widmanstätten (with a single n and the German letter for the diphthong, the a with the 2 dots above) or Beck-Widmannstetter. Which one was more in use? I don't know. We have to ask the list-members from Austria to look in the specific biographical lexika. There still exists several descendants today, they spell themselves Beckh-Widmannstetter. Ehm, Doug, the story with the font is different. It's the most famous and incredible meteorite legend in history. Be prepared! There was a prophecy about the Burggraf-Klumpen. It said, whenever it will be let down into the font of Loket castle, it will come up again. Well, so once it was let down in the font, and after a while, they tore him out gain. Spooky, isn't it Doug? I forgot where I read that story and also why the chunk was hidden at which opportunity. Whether it was in the Napoleonic wars, or whether Wallenstein wanted to found bullets out of it, whether some Hussites were hiding it... There were always wars, wars, wars...funny enough, people now ranting about the European Union always forget, in what for a privileged situation they're living. 60 years without greater wars. Buckleboo! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im Auftrag von MexicoDoug Gesendet: Freitag, 24. November 2006 22:32 An: Martin Altmann Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
Sterling wrote: 1739-1740 War of Jenkins' Ear And [the USA's] certainly never managed to have a war as magnificently named as The War of Jenkins' Ear! Now, that's how to name a war! Clear, concise, and everybody knows exactly what it's all about. Hey Sterling, Hah! remember studies in Western Civ - between Physics and philosophy class :-) -, really, the USA has darn well so managed to have a war equally magnificient in name as the War of Jenkin's Ear. It was called The War of Jenkin's Ear; Same Jenkins - and it wasn't Jenkin's other ear. Don't forget that Jenkin's ear was supposedly severed in the Americas, and he was as English as George Washington at the time. So I'd Argue that not only did the Americans participate in that war - they also started it. Not to mention the USA started the funiest named war of all: The Quasi-War as thanks to the French right after the French supported the American Independence effort. That particular Jenkin's Ear war in the 1740's is actually the same war that was contracted by the European continent and spread to Bohemia and resulted in the French tossing the Elbogen Iron meteorite down the to the bottom of the Bohemian well where it rusted for 40 years. It was a small world back then, too. In the USA, in the great American State of Georgia, the military general who founded Georgia wasted no time to marshal his proud Savannah compatriots and adventurous Charlestonians out of South Carolina to pillage everything from Jacksonville, Florida to St. Augustine, and that was only openers. Oh the United States has had oogles more practically nameless wars than you give it credit for in those years. They don't Google easily out of a database like your nice European ones, but they were bloodier if Indians are men considered equal in the eyes of the Creator. You've got to consider that in Europe all those wars were spread among 20-30 countries. How many Indian real nations do you think the singular USA trounced in a religious ferver to achieve its destiny? The USA is a nation that was perpetually at war on its own and its extended frontiers. There are more Indian wars alone, than Indian nations that yielded in defeat against the cleansing of the continent from Atlantic to Pacific. Take Florida, which heaped war upon wars, genocide and forced relocation. Or maybe Missouri - if the Indians had caught on quicker, you might be living in a teepee today, or at least your neighbor :-) As for the lack of colorful names of wars in the USA even without considering who started the War of Jenkin's Ear, does Europe have a Battle of Little Bighorn, which is a battle the war easily can assume for the name, and really was the fight leading to the demise of a race of people? If that isn't enough, how about the Gipper's Star Wars, who has one of those programs besides George Lucas? And I am convinced that the US participated as a silent partner in the infamous Football War, as well... Best wishes, Doug (no slights to any nation, no offense; we are who we are and I can live with that just fine, until someone else tosses a spectacular iron in a well to fester. Guess the Evian was too depleted in minerals for their taste) - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'MexicoDoug' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 8:34 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Martin Altmann said: There were always wars, wars, wars... funny enough, people now ranting about the European Union always forget... 1337-1453 Hundred Years' War 1455-1485 Wars of the Roses 1496-1499 Russo-Swedish War of 1496-1499 1522-1559 Habsburg-Valois Wars 1554-1557 Russo-Swedish War of 1554-1557 1558-1583 Livonian War 1568-1648 Eighty Years' War 1590-1595 Russo-Swedish War of 1590-1595 1594-1603 Nine Years' War (Ireland) 1610-1617 Ingrian War 1618-1648 Thirty Years' War 1641-1649 Wars of Castro 1641-1653 Irish Confederate Wars 1642-1651 English Civil War 1644-1650 Scottish Civil War 1656-1658 Russo-Swedish War of 1656-1658 1667-1668 War of Devolution 1667-1683 Great Turkish War 1688-1691 Williamite War in Ireland 1700-1721 Great Northern War 1701-1713 War of the Spanish Succession 1733-1738 War of the Polish Succession 1739-1740 War of Jenkins' Ear 1740-1748 War of the Austrian Succession 1741-1743 Russo-Swedish War of 1741-1743 1756-1763 Seven Years' War 1788-1790 Russo-Swedish War of 1788-1790 1789-1799 French Revolution 1798 Irish Rebellion of 1798 1792-1815 Napoleonic Wars 1808-1809 Finnish War 1848-1866 Italian Independence wars 1848-1849 First Italian Independence War 1859 Second Italian Independence War 1866 Third Italian Independence War 1854-1856 Crimean War 1866-1866 Austro-Prussian War 1870-1871 Franco-Prussian War 1877-1878 Russo-Turkish War 1893-1896 Cod War of 1893 1897 First Greco
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 19:34:06 -0600, you wrote: do that in Iraq). And we've certainly never managed to have a war as magnificently named as The War of Jenkins' Ear! Well, now we have The War of He Tried To Kill My Daddy. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
Hi Doug, apropos Grimm bros. Did you know, that they mentioned a very famous meteorite in their collection of German folk tales (1816-1818)? Auch zeigt man auf dem Rathause zu Elbogen noch jetzt die verbannten ruchlosen und goldgeizigen Burggrafen in einem Klumpen klingenden Metall. Der Sage nach soll niemand, der mit einer Todsünde befleckt ist, diesen Klumpen in die Höhe heben können. Uuuh my poor English, a Matteo version could read like this: Also, in the townhall of Elbogen still today the banned heinous and gold-greedy burgraves are exhibited in a lump of clinking metal. Acording to legend nobody, who's imbrued by a capital sin, will be able to lift this lump. To translate the tale of the metamorphosis of the Burgrave into the meteorite, I leave to others (Peter, Bernd?): Der verwunschene Markgraf von Elbogen In grauer Vorzeit herrschte über Elbogen ein gar harter Mann, der Markgraf von Vohburg, der seine Untertanen und Diener, besonders die Bewohner der Robitsch einer Elbogener Gegend mit schwerem Frondienst bedrückte. Konnte einer den Willen des strengen Herren nicht nachkommen, wurde er sicherlich in den Turm geworfen und jämmerlich gezüchtigt. Über dem Haupttor der Burg ließ er eine Glocke befestigen, welche zur harten Arbeit rief. Zu Anfang ertönte sie wohl selten, später aber immer häufiger; denn der Markgraf wurde immer grausamer und habsüchtiger, das Mitleid schien gänzlich von ihm gewichen zu sein. Eines Sonntagmorgens stand er über dem Tor und beobachtete die in das nahe Gotteshaus wandelnden Scharen. Und es traf sich, dass eine arme Witwe ihm an diesem Tag eine Zahlung zu leisten hatte, sie hatte aber nichts, dass sie diese hätte entrichten können. Vielleicht, dachte sie, stimmt die heilige Sonntagsfeier den strengen Gebieter etwas zum Mitleid, und ging mit ihren unmündigen Kindern an der Hand, zu ihm hin und bat flehend um Nachsicht und Barmherzigkeit. Habet Erbarmen mit mir! Der Ernährer der Familie ist gestorben und die Arbeit meiner Hände reicht eben nur kümmerlich hin, mich und diese Waisen zu erhalten! Das Angesicht des Markgrafen verfinsterte sich bei der Rede wie der Himmel, der sich eben mit schweren Gewitterwolken umzog. Die arme Witwe bat nochmals und auch die Kleinen erhoben zu ihm ihre Hände. Doch das Herz des Herren blieb unbewegt und ließ sich durch den Jammer dieser Armen nicht erweichen. Zornesglut erfüllte sein Antlitz und seine Stimme donnerte auf sie herab: Hinweg aus meinen Augen! Zahle was Du schuldig bist, sonnst lasse ich Dich in den Turm werfen! Da raffte sich das Weib empor und rief, während das Donnern durch das Tal dröhnte, dem Fühllosen zu: Weh` Dir, Vohburg! In dieser Stunde noch wirst Du in Stein verwandelt werden. Ein Schrei scholl durch die Lüfte der Markgraf war verschwunden und dort, vor er stand, lag ein Klumpen der verwunschene Markgraf von Elbogen. from Stanilav Burachovic: Sagen der Karlsbader Landschaft Martin, on your special request: Buckleboo! --- STAR MONEY by the Bros. Altmann (jeje) A short fable summarized by our very favorite Germans, based on the original which was probably much older than the 1803 L'Aigle fall itself. Gives great insight to cultural fantasies of the significance of meteorites in the deep recesses of human thought. Interestingly, in an odd twist, it personifies what we all yearn in meteorite hunting in one form or another...READ THE ENGLISH translation free here, no need to buy the book, compiled by the namsake of Chladni's heirs: Story featured in Nation Geographic: http://www.nationalgeographic.com/grimm/star_money2.html Best wishes, Doug __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
Hi Martin, Thanks for the Buckleboo! It had become such a familiar part of the list, like an attention-getting favorite family member I started to miss it Now, whoever said German couldn't be a consonant language, hasn't read enough of Klumpen klingenden Metall and such. Those Grimm boys really provided a capsule of time, the scientists they were, so far ahead in educating toddling future meteoriticists. Thanks for the tale of the Bohemian iron Elbogen, the year assumed ca. 1400 witnessed fall that was recorded more as conversion of a greedy baron than a meteoritical tale. One wonders what Widmaenstatten was really out to discover when he stuck a slab of Elbogen in a Bunsen Burner to see what would happen. It must have been quite a BuckleBOO! for Widmaenstatten to see the steely Baron's jailbars and bones developing in the flame of that bewitching Klumpen of Metall. This relationship of meteorites to avariciousness and piousness illustrated here and in the Grimms' tale is pleasantly enlightening. One can see the original view of the of the Burggraf that Widmanstaetten saw courtesy of Jörn Koblitz here: http://www.metbase.de/printable/images/schreibers3_650.jpg And Chladni himself had an etched knife forged from Elbogen which is now at the Berlin Museum for any or all the motivated to see! http://euromin.w3sites.net/Nouveau_site/musees/berlin/Website-dt/Elbogen.html And another book to possibly add to the list: KNAGSTED by Gustev Wied Finally, here's another book you don't have to buy and can read online, Knagsted, by the Danish novelist Gustav Wied. That is, if you can at least read Rigsdansk... It was a satire published in 1902 and is based in part on the Elbogen legends... Excerpt: **Samt (hvad der er forbavsende interessant): Der verwünschte Burggraf (en ond og haard Borgherre, der in grauer Vorzeit paa Foranledning af sin Umenneskelighed og en fattig Kones indtrængende Bøn til Gud blev forvandlet til) ein ursprünglich 108 kg schwerer Meteorstein von der Gestalt eines Pferdekopfes. Gegenwürtig aber ist nur der kleinere etwa 22 kg schwere Theil desselben zu sehen, während sich der grÖssere im k. k. Hof-Naturaliencabinet in Wien befindet ...** complete Danish text (Lars, please help!): http://www.bjornetjenesten.dk/teksterdk/knagsted.htm Marty, You've really earned your Austral-Germaniac heiritage today... Congratulations !!! Notice of my special request is kindly appreciated, Buckleboo too, Dougy - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'MexicoDoug' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 4:43 AM Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Hi Doug, apropos Grimm bros. Did you know, that they mentioned a very famous meteorite in their collection of German folk tales (1816-1818)? Auch zeigt man auf dem Rathause zu Elbogen noch jetzt die verbannten ruchlosen und goldgeizigen Burggrafen in einem Klumpen klingenden Metall. Der Sage nach soll niemand, der mit einer Todsünde befleckt ist, diesen Klumpen in die Höhe heben können. Uuuh my poor English, a Matteo version could read like this: Also, in the townhall of Elbogen still today the banned heinous and gold-greedy burgraves are exhibited in a lump of clinking metal. Acording to legend nobody, who's imbrued by a capital sin, will be able to lift this lump. To translate the tale of the metamorphosis of the Burgrave into the meteorite, I leave to others (Peter, Bernd?): Der verwunschene Markgraf von Elbogen In grauer Vorzeit herrschte über Elbogen ein gar harter Mann, der Markgraf von Vohburg, der seine Untertanen und Diener, besonders die Bewohner der Robitsch - einer Elbogener Gegend - mit schwerem Frondienst bedrückte. Konnte einer den Willen des strengen Herren nicht nachkommen, wurde er sicherlich in den Turm geworfen und jämmerlich gezüchtigt. Über dem Haupttor der Burg ließ er eine Glocke befestigen, welche zur harten Arbeit rief. Zu Anfang ertönte sie wohl selten, später aber immer häufiger; denn der Markgraf wurde immer grausamer und habsüchtiger, das Mitleid schien gänzlich von ihm gewichen zu sein. Eines Sonntagmorgens stand er über dem Tor und beobachtete die in das nahe Gotteshaus wandelnden Scharen. Und es traf sich, dass eine arme Witwe ihm an diesem Tag eine Zahlung zu leisten hatte, sie hatte aber nichts, dass sie diese hätte entrichten können. Vielleicht, dachte sie, stimmt die heilige Sonntagsfeier den strengen Gebieter etwas zum Mitleid, und ging mit ihren unmündigen Kindern an der Hand, zu ihm hin und bat flehend um Nachsicht und Barmherzigkeit. Habet Erbarmen mit mir! Der Ernährer der Familie ist gestorben und die Arbeit meiner Hände reicht eben nur kümmerlich hin, mich und diese Waisen zu erhalten! Das Angesicht des Markgrafen verfinsterte sich bei der Rede wie der Himmel, der sich eben mit schweren Gewitterwolken umzog. Die arme Witwe bat nochmals und auch die Kleinen
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
Hola Doug, yah and the Grimm brothers weren't only collectors of tales, but titans of linguistics in writing the first modern comprehensive German dictionary. Btw. Widmannstetter used Elbogen for his direct printing of his famous Thopmson structures. Goethe celebrated his 75th birthday on the castle of Elbogen (Loket), I'm not sure, whether he saw the Klumpen still there. Anyway, when ha was young and visited the stone of Ensisheim in the church, he made pubertal fooling about the people being so superstitious. Again, if once Vassiliev won't be so busy anymore, he has to found a meteorite fair on Loket castle. Nice counterpart to Ensisheim. Huh, I think I'm a capital sinner, I don't think, that I would be able to lift a Klumpen of more than 2 hundredweights... At least in the stories (there exist another version of the Burggraf metamorphosis) there are some slight meteoritical appeals: Thunder, Sounds, light, a pit... Buckleboo! Martin PS: There must be another story from that Klumpen, that it was hidden in the font of the castle - perhaps during the Napoleonic wars? -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: MexicoDoug [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Freitag, 24. November 2006 20:08 An: Martin Altmann Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Hi Martin, Thanks for the Buckleboo! It had become such a familiar part of the list, like an attention-getting favorite family member I started to miss it Now, whoever said German couldn't be a consonant language, hasn't read enough of Klumpen klingenden Metall and such. Those Grimm boys really provided a capsule of time, the scientists they were, so far ahead in educating toddling future meteoriticists. Thanks for the tale of the Bohemian iron Elbogen, the year assumed ca. 1400 witnessed fall that was recorded more as conversion of a greedy baron than a meteoritical tale. One wonders what Widmaenstatten was really out to discover when he stuck a slab of Elbogen in a Bunsen Burner to see what would happen. It must have been quite a BuckleBOO! for Widmaenstatten to see the steely Baron's jailbars and bones developing in the flame of that bewitching Klumpen of Metall. This relationship of meteorites to avariciousness and piousness illustrated here and in the Grimms' tale is pleasantly enlightening. One can see the original view of the of the Burggraf that Widmanstaetten saw courtesy of Jörn Koblitz here: http://www.metbase.de/printable/images/schreibers3_650.jpg And Chladni himself had an etched knife forged from Elbogen which is now at the Berlin Museum for any or all the motivated to see! http://euromin.w3sites.net/Nouveau_site/musees/berlin/Website-dt/Elbogen.htm l And another book to possibly add to the list: KNAGSTED by Gustev Wied Finally, here's another book you don't have to buy and can read online, Knagsted, by the Danish novelist Gustav Wied. That is, if you can at least read Rigsdansk... It was a satire published in 1902 and is based in part on the Elbogen legends... Excerpt: **Samt (hvad der er forbavsende interessant): Der verwünschte Burggraf (en ond og haard Borgherre, der in grauer Vorzeit paa Foranledning af sin Umenneskelighed og en fattig Kones indtrængende Bøn til Gud blev forvandlet til) ein ursprünglich 108 kg schwerer Meteorstein von der Gestalt eines Pferdekopfes. Gegenwürtig aber ist nur der kleinere etwa 22 kg schwere Theil desselben zu sehen, während sich der grÖssere im k. k. Hof-Naturaliencabinet in Wien befindet ...** complete Danish text (Lars, please help!): http://www.bjornetjenesten.dk/teksterdk/knagsted.htm Marty, You've really earned your Austral-Germaniac heiritage today... Congratulations !!! Notice of my special request is kindly appreciated, Buckleboo too, Dougy - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'MexicoDoug' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 4:43 AM Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Hi Doug, apropos Grimm bros. Did you know, that they mentioned a very famous meteorite in their collection of German folk tales (1816-1818)? Auch zeigt man auf dem Rathause zu Elbogen noch jetzt die verbannten ruchlosen und goldgeizigen Burggrafen in einem Klumpen klingenden Metall. Der Sage nach soll niemand, der mit einer Todsünde befleckt ist, diesen Klumpen in die Höhe heben können. Uuuh my poor English, a Matteo version could read like this: Also, in the townhall of Elbogen still today the banned heinous and gold-greedy burgraves are exhibited in a lump of clinking metal. Acording to legend nobody, who's imbrued by a capital sin, will be able to lift this lump. To translate the tale of the metamorphosis of the Burgrave into the meteorite, I leave to others (Peter, Bernd?): Der verwunschene Markgraf von Elbogen In grauer Vorzeit herrschte über Elbogen ein gar harter Mann, der Markgraf von Vohburg, der
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
Dear Martin, Doug, list , - Goethe celebrated his 74th birthday 1823 at the castle of Elbogen (Loket), together with the 19 years young Ulrike von Levetzow (see Goethe's 'Marienbader Elegie'). So he didn't care so much about the meteorite, prefered to ask Ulrike to marry him - but she refused. Probably it would have been better to turn the eyes to eternity and to start collecting meteorites. But, well, you know ... All best, have a nice weekend - Matthias - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'MexicoDoug' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 8:42 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Hola Doug, yah and the Grimm brothers weren't only collectors of tales, but titans of linguistics in writing the first modern comprehensive German dictionary. Btw. Widmannstetter used Elbogen for his direct printing of his famous Thopmson structures. Goethe celebrated his 75th birthday on the castle of Elbogen (Loket), I'm not sure, whether he saw the Klumpen still there. Anyway, when ha was young and visited the stone of Ensisheim in the church, he made pubertal fooling about the people being so superstitious. Again, if once Vassiliev won't be so busy anymore, he has to found a meteorite fair on Loket castle. Nice counterpart to Ensisheim. Huh, I think I'm a capital sinner, I don't think, that I would be able to lift a Klumpen of more than 2 hundredweights... At least in the stories (there exist another version of the Burggraf metamorphosis) there are some slight meteoritical appeals: Thunder, Sounds, light, a pit... Buckleboo! Martin PS: There must be another story from that Klumpen, that it was hidden in the font of the castle - perhaps during the Napoleonic wars? -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: MexicoDoug [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Freitag, 24. November 2006 20:08 An: Martin Altmann Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Hi Martin, Thanks for the Buckleboo! It had become such a familiar part of the list, like an attention-getting favorite family member I started to miss it Now, whoever said German couldn't be a consonant language, hasn't read enough of Klumpen klingenden Metall and such. Those Grimm boys really provided a capsule of time, the scientists they were, so far ahead in educating toddling future meteoriticists. Thanks for the tale of the Bohemian iron Elbogen, the year assumed ca. 1400 witnessed fall that was recorded more as conversion of a greedy baron than a meteoritical tale. One wonders what Widmaenstatten was really out to discover when he stuck a slab of Elbogen in a Bunsen Burner to see what would happen. It must have been quite a BuckleBOO! for Widmaenstatten to see the steely Baron's jailbars and bones developing in the flame of that bewitching Klumpen of Metall. This relationship of meteorites to avariciousness and piousness illustrated here and in the Grimms' tale is pleasantly enlightening. One can see the original view of the of the Burggraf that Widmanstaetten saw courtesy of Jörn Koblitz here: http://www.metbase.de/printable/images/schreibers3_650.jpg And Chladni himself had an etched knife forged from Elbogen which is now at the Berlin Museum for any or all the motivated to see! http://euromin.w3sites.net/Nouveau_site/musees/berlin/Website-dt/Elbogen.htm l And another book to possibly add to the list: KNAGSTED by Gustev Wied Finally, here's another book you don't have to buy and can read online, Knagsted, by the Danish novelist Gustav Wied. That is, if you can at least read Rigsdansk... It was a satire published in 1902 and is based in part on the Elbogen legends... Excerpt: **Samt (hvad der er forbavsende interessant): Der verwünschte Burggraf (en ond og haard Borgherre, der in grauer Vorzeit paa Foranledning af sin Umenneskelighed og en fattig Kones indtrængende Bøn til Gud blev forvandlet til) ein ursprünglich 108 kg schwerer Meteorstein von der Gestalt eines Pferdekopfes. Gegenwürtig aber ist nur der kleinere etwa 22 kg schwere Theil desselben zu sehen, während sich der grÖssere im k. k. Hof-Naturaliencabinet in Wien befindet ...** complete Danish text (Lars, please help!): http://www.bjornetjenesten.dk/teksterdk/knagsted.htm Marty, You've really earned your Austral-Germaniac heiritage today... Congratulations !!! Notice of my special request is kindly appreciated, Buckleboo too, Dougy - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'MexicoDoug' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 4:43 AM Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Hi Doug, apropos Grimm bros. Did you know, that they mentioned a very famous meteorite in their collection of German folk tales (1816-1818)? Auch zeigt man auf dem Rathause zu Elbogen noch jetzt die verbannten ruchlosen und goldgeizigen Burggrafen
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
OK, Martin, Nice post, I'm convinced that, if I can ever possess a specimen of Elbogen, I won't have any choice than to acquire it from one of Chladni's authentic airs.:-) You mentioned our Widmannstaetten: Alois Beck Edler von Widmannstetter I was very curious about the spelling you used, an alternate from that which we are accustomed...Can you tell us Teutonically challenged volks a little about the reason for this difference? Ahhh, and those kind and ever-so-considerate Frenchmen. Why do you suppose they would have mocked so cruelly their Bohemian hosts by spitefully lifting up the unliftable Elbogen iron meteorite and tossing it into a well to languish there for decades? Was it simply with the arrogance to say, Non, nous'sommes non so greed, louky, devons-nous procéder à toss your rrrevered Cloompain to zz bottom of z pit where he can hhhrrust avayoui oui , ou la l, Kaput et Voilà La Boheme!!No wonder the Austrians taught those savage beastly French a lesson in humility and kicked them out on their derrières shortly afterward... for which the French rewarded them later by overrunning Munich. Well being the Francophile I am, and still astonished this could happen, I must say in their defense that the French Secret Order of the Guardians of Ensisheim has brought back great honor and civility upon their countrymen after that fateful moment of the aggression of Elbogen... Best wishes, Doug PS nice post Matthias, too! - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'MexicoDoug' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 2:42 PM Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Hola Doug, yah and the Grimm brothers weren't only collectors of tales, but titans of linguistics in writing the first modern comprehensive German dictionary. Btw. Widmannstetter used Elbogen for his direct printing of his famous Thopmson structures. Goethe celebrated his 75th birthday on the castle of Elbogen (Loket), I'm not sure, whether he saw the Klumpen still there. Anyway, when ha was young and visited the stone of Ensisheim in the church, he made pubertal fooling about the people being so superstitious. Again, if once Vassiliev won't be so busy anymore, he has to found a meteorite fair on Loket castle. Nice counterpart to Ensisheim. Huh, I think I'm a capital sinner, I don't think, that I would be able to lift a Klumpen of more than 2 hundredweights... At least in the stories (there exist another version of the Burggraf metamorphosis) there are some slight meteoritical appeals: Thunder, Sounds, light, a pit... Buckleboo! Martin PS: There must be another story from that Klumpen, that it was hidden in the font of the castle - perhaps during the Napoleonic wars? -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: MexicoDoug [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Freitag, 24. November 2006 20:08 An: Martin Altmann Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II Hi Martin, Thanks for the Buckleboo! It had become such a familiar part of the list, like an attention-getting favorite family member I started to miss it Now, whoever said German couldn't be a consonant language, hasn't read enough of Klumpen klingenden Metall and such. Those Grimm boys really provided a capsule of time, the scientists they were, so far ahead in educating toddling future meteoriticists. Thanks for the tale of the Bohemian iron Elbogen, the year assumed ca. 1400 witnessed fall that was recorded more as conversion of a greedy baron than a meteoritical tale. One wonders what Widmaenstatten was really out to discover when he stuck a slab of Elbogen in a Bunsen Burner to see what would happen. It must have been quite a BuckleBOO! for Widmaenstatten to see the steely Baron's jailbars and bones developing in the flame of that bewitching Klumpen of Metall. This relationship of meteorites to avariciousness and piousness illustrated here and in the Grimms' tale is pleasantly enlightening. One can see the original view of the of the Burggraf that Widmanstaetten saw courtesy of Jörn Koblitz here: http://www.metbase.de/printable/images/schreibers3_650.jpg And Chladni himself had an etched knife forged from Elbogen which is now at the Berlin Museum for any or all the motivated to see! http://euromin.w3sites.net/Nouveau_site/musees/berlin/Website-dt/Elbogen.htm l And another book to possibly add to the list: KNAGSTED by Gustev Wied Finally, here's another book you don't have to buy and can read online, Knagsted, by the Danish novelist Gustav Wied. That is, if you can at least read Rigsdansk... It was a satire published in 1902 and is based in part on the Elbogen legends... Excerpt: **Samt (hvad der er forbavsende interessant): Der verwünschte Burggraf (en ond og haard Borgherre, der in grauer Vorzeit paa Foranledning af sin Umenneskelighed og en fattig Kones indtrængende Bøn til
[meteorite-list] Meteorite novels -gifts II
Hello Listees, again, ...today, I imagine several cheering their Cheshire grins and feeding their fattened guts...sitting on the sofa and still smacking the lips like the cat that swallowed little Tweety... Right or wrong, it's said there's something fulfilling for the man that can do three things before he dies: Have a Son, Write a book, and Plant a tree...(wheew - lot of work left to do) I'm sure I've missed more books than I've listed which are fictional novels relating somehow to meteorites, but here are two more (the second one is an online ditty) written by list member which have special reasons not to be left out, ADVENTURES OF DIANA: THE UNDERWORLD by Jim Balister Popular Action book off the presses recently which follows a plain-Jane girl named Diana loses her job, and while looking for a new one meets the love of her life, David, who happens to be a meteorite collector, among other things. At one point they spot a fireball and try to recover it. One day, in this sweet midwestern American boredom, the Earth takes a turn unexpectedly and quake hits, followed by every extraterrestrial, governmental plague and monsterous vermin that can be thrown at its inhabitants, including Diana. With the help of a geologist, Diana goes down a pit where they find a flying saucer that kidnaps them, one mishap and incredible recovery takes place after another, the upper and lower worlds, with almost all their monsters and creatures facing destruction. But then Diana meets someone important and she yearns to reestablish her life and settle down with David... STAR MONEY by the Bros. Altmann (jeje) A short fable summarized by our very favorite Germans, based on the original which was probably much older than the 1803 L'Aigle fall itself. Gives great insight to cultural fantasies of the significance of meteorites in the deep recesses of human thought. Interestingly, in an odd twist, it personifies what we all yearn in meteorite hunting in one form or another...READ THE ENGLISH translation free here, no need to buy the book, compiled by the namsake of Chladni's heirs: Story featured in Nation Geographic: http://www.nationalgeographic.com/grimm/star_money2.html Best wishes, Doug - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 4:30 AM Subject: [meteorite-list] List of Meteorite novels for gifts Hola Listees, Thanks very kindly for the meteorite fictional book ideas many of you kindly sent in response to my post the other day. I thought I would post a summary in case anyone else was looking for gift ideas for friends family or loved ones. First, I'll tell you the book I decided to get for a special person (just received today!!!), followed by a list of other books (for which I owe thanks to everyone who helped me out on and off list): Winner: STARDUST, (Spanish Title: Lluvia de Estrellas = Meteor Shower-) by Neil Gaiman This is a romantic fantasy about the faeries and struck ones in the nicest sense. While it seems like it is written for children, the naughty author has the meteorite curse after her painful atmospheric entry, and there is a bit of steamy sex to whet some folks appetites... Two cultures somewhere in the English countryside are divided by a wall every day except one in 9 years. An adventurous young man with an interesting birthright is with the prettiest girl in the nondescript human village inside the stone wall. Victoria owns his heart, but, she doesn't care much for Tristran. They gaze into the sky when witnessing the ground shaking and thunder accompanying a shooting star. It begins as a small light, but quickly outshines the Moon and brilliantly falls somewhere on the other side of the wall, where there are enchanted meadows, trees and their inhabitants. The young man Tristran is so blinded by love that he somehow becomes obsessed with the labor to recover the fallen star and bring it to her to win her heart and live happily ever after. Only, he has lots of competition hunting on the other side of the wall ... where meteorites have more voluptuous properties than a few quartzy chondrules. Tristran learns that recovering a shooting star is very arduous task which forces one to meet and deal with all sorts of challenging characters during the quest. Finally he learns that the fallen star is nothing his imagination contemplated, but that the knowledge he has accumulated in his quest for it has changed his life and taught him more about himself than he dreamed were possible to know. The tale is fairly short in medium print, and I've skimmed it enough to highly recommend it to the Romantics, hopeless, and hopeful. Runner ups, THE ICE LIMIT (Mas Alla del Hielo) by Douglas Preston and Lincoln Child Popular novel, A rich meteorite collector decides to pillage Chile by hiring a crew to recover the world's
