[meteorite-list] More evidence of building blocks of DNA inmeteorites
G'day Sterling Yes, it's well established that amino acids, nucleobases and other such molecules are pretty much everywhere across the Universe. They're common, fairly simple compounds. When you say they're ready to be assembled and you can build your own ladder, are you talking about Brahman, Yahweh, Allah, what or whom is causing this stuff to organize, self-replicate and strangest of all, cross the line from non-living to living? Is it the Almighty God of Chance? What is this Ghost in the Machine? But that's a whole 'nother can of segmented annelids! My objection is to the propagandistic way they're releasing this new information to generate lurid headlines and goofy articles. Alien Life Form Found on Earth! New Evidence of Fossils Found in Mars Meteorites! NASA discovers DNA in meteorites! NASA Scientists Trace Heat Wave To Massive Star At Center Of Solar System! OK, that last one is from the Onion: http://www.theonion.com/articles/scientists-trace-heat-wave-to-massive-star-at-cent,21088/ Phil Whitmer Joshua Tree Earth Space Museum --- But the nucleobases found in the meteorite are of BOTH optical isomers -- right- and left- handed molecules -- or so the video says. if they were from terrestrial contamination, they would be only the Earthly orientation. The point is that not only amino acids are being produced in space a-biotically but so are common nucleobases, ready to be assembled. It's not like getting DNA from space --- it's like getting a box of pre-fitted ladder rungs so you can build your own ladder. Sterling K. Webb __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] More evidence of building blocks of DNA inmeteorites
Phil, Listees, I hate the Probability argument. The first fallacy of it is that everything has an equal chance of combining with everything. Nope. Think about cosmology. A new universe, all energy, cools and condenses into an incredible variety of particles, all with different properties. The neutrinos? They get the heck out of Dodge as soon as they form. The photons? They slam about the mosh pit until all their energy is gone. We end up with atoms, protons paired with electrons. Why don't we have atoms made out of the hundreds of other particles? Because those pairings don't work, can't last, or can't even take place. The same situation is true for the combination of molecular odds'n'ends in an organic soup as it is for a soup of particles. (Only particle soup is thinner and hotter.) There is no equal chance of simple molecules, broken molecules, elements, and such combining in equal shares with each other. Certain combinations are heavily favored. Others just don't happen. Like particle soup, there are likely certain energy requirements. Some likely combos may start a quick dash down a chain of 5-6 likely combos only to end as a hard inert goop stuck on rocks and to which nothing interesting will ever happen again, or end as something so fragile it breaks apart again. Most combinations go nowhere. Well, gee (you say), that's no way to get life! But if you eliminate much of the field with each round of combinations, you get down to the real candidates in very short order. It goes much faster than American Idol. If you build a quantum Big Bang fluctuation with every particle possible as it cools, you're going to end up with a universe of hydrogen atoms that rapidly condense by gravity into stars and space, and hey! you're on your way. The mathematical analogue of endless equal combinations does not model reality in the slightest. It is one of the silliest arguments of the won't-go-away class. Like the argument that evolution gave me a nose so I could wear eyeglasses... Build universes over and over again and you will end up with the same dam thing. Why? Because the outcome is determined by the properties of matter and its interactions --- it's BUILT-IN. Is there any reason to believe the combinatorics of atoms that end up on the planets that inevitably condense wherever possible and are made of the same dam minerals over and over again, dripping with the same dam solvent over and over again, won't we have pretty much the same dam result over and over again? INHERENCY. Doesn't mean it always happens. It's too cold; it's too hot; it's too wet; it's not wet enough; whine, whine, whine... Maybe every big body has a deep biosphere of slow-metabolizing, slow- reproducing cellular endolithic life that is just waiting for the neighborhood to improve before they get up on their hind legs and get going. I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised either way. I say the unusual habits of carbon-based molecules (writing sonnets, flying to the Moon) arise out of their basic physical properties, fundamental properties like the structure of carbon's electron states and their characteristic energies as inevitably as a universe of hydrogen stars and space arise out of a Big Bang. The Universe is like some Politics -- The Fix Is In. Sterling K. Webb -- - Original Message - From: JoshuaTreeMuseum joshuatreemus...@embarqmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 12:30 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] More evidence of building blocks of DNA inmeteorites One of the few things I recall from college Probability Theory class is that if something happened once, no matter how unlikly, it can happen again. For example, since the Chicago Cubs won back to back World Series championships in 1907 and 1908, theoretically, they could do it again. Meteorites containing peptides, amino acids, nucleobase isomers and other building blocks bombard a planet that already more than likely contains the same stuff, since it is composed of accreted asteroids, comets and meteorites. So we have these compounds in an oxidizing atmosphere with lots of lightning storms. Add in the hundreds of known constraints on the parameters for carbon-based life forms, (distance from the nearest star, perfect magneto-field, etc., etc.) What is the logical probability that these compounds will randomly assemble themselves into DNA and RNA molecules that will self-replicate and start using proteins to build living cells. The cells will then assemble into tissues and organs until a complex multi-cellular organism results. These organisms then sexually reproduce (Yy!) and diversify until they evolve into humans. The humans randomly develop consciousness, self-awareness and intelligence. Sure, this could happen again. And Ernie Banks could come out of retirement, suit up, and hit the game-winning home
Re: [meteorite-list] More evidence of building blocks of DNA inmeteorites
Dear Wile E, and List, The three lines of evidence leading to the conclusion that the nucleobases found in meteorites are endogenous can be found here in this NASA Goddard video: http://www.space.com/12578-evidence-space-created-dna.html What that shows is since that the ones they found are made in space, that's a proof that they can be made in space... because they were, but it's not likely they are the product of Acme technology.. No one doubts the excellence of the Acme product, however. I'm sure many fine life-bearing planets have been seeded the Acme Way. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: magbi...@lowcountry.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 12:58 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] More evidence of building blocks of DNA inmeteorites NASA Research Shows DNA Building Blocks Can Be Made in Space Something about the title of the PR seems strange. If they found some DNA/RNA nucleotide bases, then it's not can be made in space, it is are made in space. If they didn't find any, then we are still with the all the ingredients are present, something which was already shown. Is the question Did it happen here, under Miller-Urey type conditions?, or Was the meteorite delivered from the Acme Corporation in Fairfield, Mars, to Wile E. Coyote (Roadrunner cartoon character), unpack carefully, to replicate life, just add water - Acme Inc. e.g., http://home.roadrunner.com/~tuco/looney/acme/dehydrated.html Kindest wishes Doug -Original Message- From: Mal Bishop magbi...@lowcountry.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, Aug 8, 2011 9:15 pm Subject: [meteorite-list] More evidence of building blocks of DNA in meteorites Found this of interest: NASA Research Shows DNA Building Blocks Can Be Made in Space http://www.nasa.gov/centers/ames/news/releases/2011/11-60AR.html Mal __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] More evidence of building blocks of DNA inmeteorites
But the nucleobases found in the meteorite are of BOTH optical isomers -- right- and left- handed molecules -- or so the video says. if they were from terrestrial contamination, they would be only the Earthly orientation. The point is that not only amino acids are being produced in space a-biotically but so are common nucleobases, ready to be assembled. It's not like getting DNA from space --- it's like getting a box of pre-fitted ladder rungs so you can build your own ladder. Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: dorifry dori...@embarqmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 1:49 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] More evidence of building blocks of DNA inmeteorites Hello fellow Listerians: It's hype, just like the sketchy arsenic-based life forms and the imaginary Martian fossils. First off when you say DNA, most people think of a biotic double helix just like we have in the nuclei of our cells. Components of DNA is an entirely different thing, like maybe a little bit of a rung from the DNA ladder. And the same nucleobases plus some hypoxanthine and xanthine were found in the surrounding ice and soil samples near the other meteorites. Sounds a lot like terrestrial contamination. Maybe the analog compounds were present or created at impact, but it sure sounds like the other stuff seeped in while the meteorites lay there for how long? I mean c'mon the exact same compounds? What are the chances of that? They've got to stop crying wolf all the time, it's getting old. Phil Whitmer Joshua Tree Earth Space Museum __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
