[meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut
The alleged camera: http://www.collectspace.com/news/news-070411a.html Phil Whitmer __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut
If it is illegal now it was probably illegal then. It is just that it was a hay-day of sorts thirty years ago and no one thought more of it. I imagine now that NASA is coming down there is probably a lot of auditing going on. And the auditors are finding things missing. It is just a thought.. -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Mark Ford Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 10:20 AM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut Yes but why is it 'a legal one' now as opposed to 30 years ago? -Original Message- From: James Sleep [mailto:jsl...@provide.net] Sent: 04 July 2011 14:38 To: Mark Ford Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut I think the problem is a simple legal one. It is probably like the owner of a business using business stuff for personal use. It is illegal. It was probably illegal to give away the camera, and other stuff, because it is material that belongs to the business-NASA. NASA is probably determined by law to sue to retrieve the objects or value of the objects. Just like the owner of a trademark is legally obliged to sue someone who uses that trademark illegally or risk losing the trademark. Sometimes it is the law that requires you to sue James -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Mark Ford Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 9:06 AM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut Well spotted Hehe, (now who's rewriting history ;) lol. Seriously though I think the Astronauts should refuse to do any more PR work for Nasa over this, it's disgraceful. (Assuming the press reports are true of course). These Guys and girls put their lives on the line - Granted there's a potentially difference from cadging some scrap stuff from work and being officially awarded/given it in writing, but I can't help thinking this is more about 'recovering valuable items', rather than anything else Mark -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of geo...@aol.com Sent: 04 July 2011 13:52 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut >>They're at it again ... rewriting history and after 40 years of NASA's permission to take mementos from the Apollo era - now suing the sixth man to walk on the moon, Edgar Mitchell of Apollo 11, for trying to sell the camera they allowed him to have ... << Edgar Mitchell wasn't on Apollo 11Michael Collins, Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong were. GeoZay __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut
http://www.wpbf.com/news/28418418/detail.html Unfortunately this is not a case of media error. Here is a video you can see the American National Hero Ed Mitchell discussing his mementos and memorabilia and how things really were in the Apollo days. It is easy nowadays that fewer and fewer of these heroes are left to look at things with 2011 salivation. It is the selling that irked NASA, something that they were not concerned about 10, 20, 30 years ago. He notes that basically he took it back in as personal stuff as it was meant to be left as litter on the Moon. If I were asked, I think he should be awarded another medal for cleaning up the mess and bringing it back for a rare private contribution. Such obtainable things do a great deal to stimulate interest in space exploration and national pride (for the better or worse), and play an important role in public relations. Museums and Private collection can co-exist ;-) Why doesn't the judge just say that if NASA wants to go to the Moon and throw it's garbage back, Ed will be responsible for mission, court and legal costs so it can be disposed of properly? On US Independence Day, it would be great to have one of the dozens of flags in private possession that were carried with the astronauts to the Moon and back and have been sold. But, independent of all of this he says NASA gave it to him and I believe him. There are no conditions about garbage disposal and sales in Apollo contracts ... The man has no reason to lie and leave a bad legacy. The preponderance of evidence favors his version of the Apollo years. Things changed afterwards ... but that was afterwards ... Kindest regards Doug -Original Message- From: Elizabeth Warner To: Rich Jolly Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, Jul 4, 2011 1:51 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut On Mon, 4 Jul 2011, Rich Jolly wrote: I have not been following this thread in great detail, just skimming the messages. One thought comes to mind is that if he was trying to sell the item that while he may have gotten it as a gift, it was maybe under the understanding that he or his family would not sell it... ie, that the item would convey back to NASA for disposal or to be put into a museum... After all, in theory, all of that stuff belongs to the US citizens, so if he no longer wants it, it should be returned or at least we should get right of first refusal. Again, without knowing all of the details it's hard to know exactly what is happening. We do know how truthful/factual our media can be. Clear Skies! Elizabeth __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut
Not so if they got it as a gift. And as NASA wouldn't really have other problems right now. Here, they can buy a new camera, the firma still exist and I guess, they will have better ones now: http://www.hasselblad.de/ If that continues, I fear they will dry and stuff the bodies of the astronauts after their passing-away, because they were on the Moon, brought by the government there and hence property of the U.S.-people. Don't ask me, how many pencils were "stolen" by the members from the mission control center. Let's sue them too after 40 years. Maybe a media hoax, cause else it would be a scandal. Or do you over there have already forgotten about your astronauts? Moonfire... for the 40 years jubilee, they were good enough for NASA posing with them where NASA only could for publicity, but now less than 2 years later how ingrate! Best, Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Elizabeth Warner Gesendet: Montag, 4. Juli 2011 19:51 An: Rich Jolly Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut On Mon, 4 Jul 2011, Rich Jolly wrote: I have not been following this thread in great detail, just skimming the messages. One thought comes to mind is that if he was trying to sell the item that while he may have gotten it as a gift, it was maybe under the understanding that he or his family would not sell it... ie, that the item would convey back to NASA for disposal or to be put into a museum... After all, in theory, all of that stuff belongs to the US citizens, so if he no longer wants it, it should be returned or at least we should get right of first refusal. Again, without knowing all of the details it's hard to know exactly what is happening. We do know how truthful/factual our media can be. Clear Skies! Elizabeth __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut
On Mon, 4 Jul 2011, Rich Jolly wrote: I have not been following this thread in great detail, just skimming the messages. One thought comes to mind is that if he was trying to sell the item that while he may have gotten it as a gift, it was maybe under the understanding that he or his family would not sell it... ie, that the item would convey back to NASA for disposal or to be put into a museum... After all, in theory, all of that stuff belongs to the US citizens, so if he no longer wants it, it should be returned or at least we should get right of first refusal. Again, without knowing all of the details it's hard to know exactly what is happening. We do know how truthful/factual our media can be. Clear Skies! Elizabeth __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut
List, This action by the government deeply disturbs me and I couldn't agree more with Martin. I just used the 'email the president' web site (http://www.whitehouse.gov/CONTACT/) to send the note below to Mr. Obama. On this 4th of July, I urge all the Americans out there to use this, or some similar method to contact the government to let them know how you feel about this issue. Rich -- Mr. President, I'm dismayed to read that NASA is suing Edgar Mitchell. While I don't know all the facts of this situation, it is clear to me the government is seeing the trees, but missing the forest .Is this how America treats *true* heroes? It is certainly the message that is being sent to the world.This man risked his life on this mission, and risked dying a slow death on the moon should his LEM engine fail, for the good of our country. And this is how we repay that debt? Is there something you can do to bring some justice and sensibility to this situation? Respectfully, Richard Jolly -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Martin Altmann Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 6:18 AM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut Indeed it is not so much a legal question, it is a question of decency. Seems that a new generation was bred by NASA. How disrespectful and ungrateful can you still be for that by all means truly heroic deeds the astronauts did for NASA and the nation, to molest them now at their old-age with such a petty and greedy idiocy! I think, it's a question of reason and saving the face of that governmental spaceflight organization to remove these shameless rugrats, who had that brilliant idea, immediately from their jobs. NASA was scrooge enough to them with their Moon rocks. Meteorite people are different... Look, here Mitchell receives a piece of Moon via Tim Heitz: http://www.meteorman.org/Ed-Mitchell.htm Best, Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von MexicoDoug Gesendet: Montag, 4. Juli 2011 09:31 An: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/90053154?U.S.%20government%20sues%20former%20astronaut%20over%20lunar%20camera#ixzz1R7PMDp3p Dear list, This is a very relevant case to meteorites and should not be taken lightly. They're at it again ... rewriting history and after 40 years of NASA's permission to take mementos from the Apollo era - now suing the sixth man to walk on the moon, Edgar Mitchell of Apollo 11, for trying to sell the camera they allowed him to have ... the precedent, I suspect is the identical one to the dust on the tape, which didn't exist, but they are gunning for now. Again, we are faced with the erosion of sensible property rights, a violation of traditional English and Roman law regarding the importance of possession IMO, in an effort to legislation effort from the bench at its finest (sarcasm). The question at hand: Can we apply today's standards retroactively to say NASA was wrong to allow astronauts to have things that were of no use to NASA at the time and with the full knowledge of NASA allowed to be kept by those involved. After 40 years of knowledge that the astronaut possessed this camera and other sundry things, it becomes a precedent, and NASA is even painting an American hero with a scarlet letter of "T" for "Thief" From the article: "During the Apollo mission era, Mitchell said he and other astronauts got permission to take mementos from the spacecrafts. "We have dozens of pieces. All of us who flew to the moon," he said in a Palm Beach Post report. Mitchell’s lawyer, Donald Jacobson, said, "Objects from the lunar trips to the moon were ultimately mounted and then presented to the astronauts as a gift after they had helped NASA on a mission." The government is asking the court to order Mitchell to hand over the camera, and declare that it has "good, clean and exclusive title" to the piece of space history. Best wishes Doug __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritece
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut
Hmm Mark, for me that story sounds anyway too disgusting to be true, who knows? But I don't know, how that would in any way affect meteorites? Moon isn't Moon in terms of earthly laws. Relevant for the ownership question of the Apollo rocks, that they are indeed owned by the United States is the Space-Treaty and the Moon-Treaty - which grants them ownership, cause they went there and picked them up for research purposes. In no way are lunar meteorites or any other meteorites affected which found their way to Earth without help of NASA on a natural way. And else. At best the ownership of the Antarctic meteorites is still somewhat unclear and not yet fully solved. And as far as museum trades are concerned, in general there are zero problems, without the very few exceptions, where some countries gave to meteorites the legal status of a cultural heritage in the sense of the 1970er UNESCO convention by means of national legislation and in setting them on their national heritage lists. Because if they concede to meteorites such a status, the national collections become open for a flood of restitution claims for all meteorites, where they can't document from the pit they were once sitting in after the fall to the drawer in the depot, where they are sitting in, without gap the chain of legal changes of ownership. And in general almost no curator of the great historical collections can't proof that for the very most of his historical meteorites inventory, because until the very recent years nobody was even thinking about, that something like a meteorite could need a documentation like an artifact or a fossil. If they concede that status to a meteorite, UNIDROIT comes into play, and the possibility of restitution is in that convention indeed retrograde - would have to look - 75 years or so and in special cases unlimited. (Here in Germany we shall e.g. restitute diverse things like the Nefertiti, the Pergamon altar, the Priamos treasure - or remember China harassing museums around the world to restitute their dinosaurs). But there we don't have to worry, because of that, such countries like USA, Austria, France, Japan - never will set meteorites onto their national heritage lists, because then their famous national meteorite collections would be so endangered, that they would have in principle to be dissolved in the end. Because at best, they have the invoices left of the dealers, they bought their collections from the last 200 years over. That this is a relevant problem, you saw, when South Africa made a drama, when London traded out a piece of Cold Bokkeveld (which was handed over to London by old Sir Herschel lng time ago), that it would be cultural heritage of South Africa. To a huge problem that could become, for those countries where a longer while ago, due to the blind hysteria of the national curators towards the private sector meteorites were implemented into their heritage lists, Like Australia e.g. - there nowadays based on Unidroit convention any state, which finds there a meteorite in the catalogues of the Perth museum e.g. having found in this state, can claim it already now back. (Therefore I'm sometimes so excited in postulating, that the legislation has immediately to be changed there) (And worried I'm a little bit, if I look onto a known island with a very famous meteorite collection, where some people in a kind of a anticipatory obedience mix up the legal complexes and ask meanwhile procedures for their acquisitions, as in their country as well as in the countries of the origin the meteorites would be listed on the respective national heritage lists, which they aren't - there I fear that they naively could run into the UNIDROIT trap, so that the famous collection would have been to be dissolved in worst case. Quite a bear's service - as we say in Germany (from La Fontaine's fables)). But all in all. Meteorites are free and have to stay free. Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mark Ford Gesendet: Montag, 4. Juli 2011 17:57 An: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut Couldn't agree more and i'm not even American! (It saddens me to see the US slowly sliding ever downward, someone in the whitehouse really needs to take a good east). I never thought I would see the loss of US manned space flight in my lifetime, yet at the end of this week that will be it! Wonder if all the meteorite museum trades will be in question if they started chasing all ex Nasa/Government material - one wonders where it would end, which is why its lunacy, (and probably the result of Lawyers and pen pushers taking over from where intelligent scientists, engineers and good people once stood...) Mark -Original Message- From: meteorite-l
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut
First, a disclaimer, I could be completely wrong about this. However, when people who hold high positions within the government or its agencies speak outside the realm of what those agencies believe is acceptable, sometimes there are reprisals. Edgar Mitchell was one of the speakers at the "Disclosure Project's" National Press Club conference a few years ago. This was the conference where many former government employees and military personnel spoke about the evidence they had for extraterrestrial visitation. Whatever you might think about the positions taken at the conference, (Mitchell only spoke in support of the other speakers, having no first hand knowledge himself) annoying those at NASA and the military (Mitchell accused an Admiral of lying) could be enough for someone wanting to "get even". Again, I might be totally wrong and overly suspicious of the pettiness of the management at NASA and the military upper brass, but I think it explains why they would take such a ridiculous position. George __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut
Hi John - Thanks for the well placed 'humor' and getting me to wiki Moon seeds to find out what you were talking about ! One of those "Moon Seeds" is less than 50 miles from me. If I could, it'd be time for a picnic while the now nearly 30 year old sycamore is in seed itself, to gather up some second generation Moon seeds. Because it is at a public library, would I get in trouble if I packaged the seeds as Moon tree spawn and sold them on eBay for a starting price of $0.01 each but a reasonable shipping cost to reflect their odyssey? If not, how about waiting in the street for a few helicopter seeds to float my way? I guess it's ok, if this is any guide: http://www.historictrees.org/produ_ht/sk_moon.htm None on eBay I could find, at the moment ;-) Best wishes Doug -Original Message- From: John.L.Cabassi To: 'MexicoDoug' ; meteoritem...@gmail.com; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, Jul 4, 2011 12:27 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut I'm just wondering what it's going to take and where they are going to store them reference to Moon Trees. Cheers John Cabassi IMCA # 2125 -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of MexicoDoug Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 8:29 AM To: meteoritem...@gmail.com; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut Yes, Mike, the misplaced priorities given NASA's budget woes were not lost on me when thinking of the young lawyers working for or being retained by NASA to harass these true Human (and American) heroes, for the little perks enjoyed by the guys that were the common practice at the time among all astronauts, and just as well could have ended up in a garbage dumpster or some warehouse which was later auctioned off to the public for two cents per item if that. These are all violations of the Astronaut's rights under the US Constitution's Bill of Rights: Fourth, Fifth as well as Fourteenth amendments. As for the statute of limitations question, usually statutes of limitations doesn't apply to governments ;-), but that is predicated on the premise that they weren't allowed to have these mission scraps at the time and that they just as well couldn't have been thrown away or lost forever if not for the nostalgic instincts of these guys. (sound familiar?) Norm's comment on the shoulder patch was a good one. Lots of authentic patches out there now that the number of Astronauts are dwindling. Michael Collins flight suit was recently up for sale also. It was recovered from his old locker when they cleaned it out by his personal trainer at the time ... Best wishes Doug -Original Message- From: Michael Gilmer To: MexicoDoug Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, Jul 4, 2011 10:26 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut Hi Doug and List, Happy Fourth of July to our astronauts who are being harassed for having garage sales! What an absolute waste of taxpayer money and manpower (again). At what point did our government go an Syd Barrett acid trip and not come back? This kind of thing sickens me. It makes me ashamed to be associated in any way with our mentally-defective government. Has all common sense and decency gone out the window in this day of lawsuits and ignorance? The elites and their sycophants don't care that people are losing their homes, going hungry, and going without medical care in this country. But yet we can piss away vast sums of money to investigate, harass, and prosecute people for selling dusty swatches of tape and old obsolete cameras. It's friggin disgusting. I've been saying this for 20 years and now the people are finally catching up with what I have been saying - this government needs to be replaced from the ground up. It's broken, it's been co-opted by megalomaniac elitists, and the fed is being used as a tool to oppress the people. Our founding fathers are rolling over in their graves over 1000 things, and now this campaign of astronaut harassment makes it 1001 things. What message does this send to science-inspired youngsters who might pursue a career in the space program? ---> "Hey kids! You'll retire poor and your pension won't cover your basic expenses, so when you try to have a garage sale, you'll be harassed for it and threatened with criminal charges so we can prevent the spread of dirty tape and obsolete cameras! God Bless America!" I really need to stop reading or answering these posts before my coffee kicks in. Is my vitriol running too freely this morning? LOL Best regards and best of luck to our HERO astronauts, MikeG -- - Galactic Stone & I
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut
I'm just wondering what it's going to take and where they are going to store them reference to Moon Trees. Cheers John Cabassi IMCA # 2125 -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of MexicoDoug Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 8:29 AM To: meteoritem...@gmail.com; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut Yes, Mike, the misplaced priorities given NASA's budget woes were not lost on me when thinking of the young lawyers working for or being retained by NASA to harass these true Human (and American) heroes, for the little perks enjoyed by the guys that were the common practice at the time among all astronauts, and just as well could have ended up in a garbage dumpster or some warehouse which was later auctioned off to the public for two cents per item if that. These are all violations of the Astronaut's rights under the US Constitution's Bill of Rights: Fourth, Fifth as well as Fourteenth amendments. As for the statute of limitations question, usually statutes of limitations doesn't apply to governments ;-), but that is predicated on the premise that they weren't allowed to have these mission scraps at the time and that they just as well couldn't have been thrown away or lost forever if not for the nostalgic instincts of these guys. (sound familiar?) Norm's comment on the shoulder patch was a good one. Lots of authentic patches out there now that the number of Astronauts are dwindling. Michael Collins flight suit was recently up for sale also. It was recovered from his old locker when they cleaned it out by his personal trainer at the time ... Best wishes Doug -Original Message- From: Michael Gilmer To: MexicoDoug Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, Jul 4, 2011 10:26 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut Hi Doug and List, Happy Fourth of July to our astronauts who are being harassed for having garage sales! What an absolute waste of taxpayer money and manpower (again). At what point did our government go an Syd Barrett acid trip and not come back? This kind of thing sickens me. It makes me ashamed to be associated in any way with our mentally-defective government. Has all common sense and decency gone out the window in this day of lawsuits and ignorance? The elites and their sycophants don't care that people are losing their homes, going hungry, and going without medical care in this country. But yet we can piss away vast sums of money to investigate, harass, and prosecute people for selling dusty swatches of tape and old obsolete cameras. It's friggin disgusting. I've been saying this for 20 years and now the people are finally catching up with what I have been saying - this government needs to be replaced from the ground up. It's broken, it's been co-opted by megalomaniac elitists, and the fed is being used as a tool to oppress the people. Our founding fathers are rolling over in their graves over 1000 things, and now this campaign of astronaut harassment makes it 1001 things. What message does this send to science-inspired youngsters who might pursue a career in the space program? ---> "Hey kids! You'll retire poor and your pension won't cover your basic expenses, so when you try to have a garage sale, you'll be harassed for it and threatened with criminal charges so we can prevent the spread of dirty tape and obsolete cameras! God Bless America!" I really need to stop reading or answering these posts before my coffee kicks in. Is my vitriol running too freely this morning? LOL Best regards and best of luck to our HERO astronauts, MikeG -- - Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Meteorites & Amber (Michael Gilmer) Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 - On 7/4/11, MexicoDoug wrote: > http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/90053154?U.S.%20government%20sue s%20former%20astronaut%20over%20lunar%20camera#ixzz1R7PMDp3p > > Dear list, > > This is a very relevant case to meteorites and should not be taken > lightly. > > They're at it again ... rewriting history and after 40 years of NASA's > permission to take mementos from the Apollo era - now suing the sixth > man to walk on the moon, Edgar Mitchell of Apollo 11, for trying to > sell the camera they allowed him to have ... the precedent, I suspect > is the identical one to the dust on the tape,
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut
* someone in the whitehouse really needs to take a good look east). Opps typo -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Mark Ford Sent: 04 July 2011 16:57 To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut Couldn't agree more and i'm not even American! (It saddens me to see the US slowly sliding ever downward, someone in the whitehouse really needs to take a good east). I never thought I would see the loss of US manned space flight in my lifetime, yet at the end of this week that will be it! Wonder if all the meteorite museum trades will be in question if they started chasing all ex Nasa/Government material - one wonders where it would end, which is why its lunacy, (and probably the result of Lawyers and pen pushers taking over from where intelligent scientists, engineers and good people once stood...) Mark -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Michael Gilmer Sent: 04 July 2011 15:26 To: MexicoDoug Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut Hi Doug and List, Happy Fourth of July to our astronauts who are being harassed for having garage sales! What an absolute waste of taxpayer money and manpower (again). At what point did our government go an Syd Barrett acid trip and not come back? This kind of thing sickens me. It makes me ashamed to be associated in any way with our mentally-defective government. Has all common sense and decency gone out the window in this day of lawsuits and ignorance? The elites and their sycophants don't care that people are losing their homes, going hungry, and going without medical care in this country. But yet we can piss away vast sums of money to investigate, harass, and prosecute people for selling dusty swatches of tape and old obsolete cameras. It's friggin disgusting. I've been saying this for 20 years and now the people are finally catching up with what I have been saying - this government needs to be replaced from the ground up. It's broken, it's been co-opted by megalomaniac elitists, and the fed is being used as a tool to oppress the people. Our founding fathers are rolling over in their graves over 1000 things, and now this campaign of astronaut harassment makes it 1001 things. What message does this send to science-inspired youngsters who might pursue a career in the space program? ---> "Hey kids! You'll retire poor and your pension won't cover your basic expenses, so when you try to have a garage sale, you'll be harassed for it and threatened with criminal charges so we can prevent the spread of dirty tape and obsolete cameras! God Bless America!" I really need to stop reading or answering these posts before my coffee kicks in. Is my vitriol running too freely this morning? LOL Best regards and best of luck to our HERO astronauts, MikeG -- - Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Meteorites & Amber (Michael Gilmer) Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 - On 7/4/11, MexicoDoug wrote: > http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/90053154?U.S.%20government%20sues%20former%20astronaut%20over%20lunar%20camera#ixzz1R7PMDp3p > > Dear list, > > This is a very relevant case to meteorites and should not be taken > lightly. > > They're at it again ... rewriting history and after 40 years of NASA's > permission to take mementos from the Apollo era - now suing the sixth > man to walk on the moon, Edgar Mitchell of Apollo 11, for trying to > sell the camera they allowed him to have ... the precedent, I suspect > is the identical one to the dust on the tape, which didn't exist, but > they are gunning for now. > > Again, we are faced with the erosion of sensible property rights, a > violation of traditional English and Roman law regarding the importance > of possession IMO, in an effort to legislation effort from the bench at > its finest (sarcasm). The question at hand: Can we apply today's > standards retroactively to say NASA was wrong to allow astronauts to > have things that were of no use to NASA at the time and with the full > knowledge of NASA allowed to be kept by those involved. After 40 years > of knowledge that the astronaut possessed this camera and other sundry > things, it becomes a precedent, a
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut
Couldn't agree more and i'm not even American! (It saddens me to see the US slowly sliding ever downward, someone in the whitehouse really needs to take a good east). I never thought I would see the loss of US manned space flight in my lifetime, yet at the end of this week that will be it! Wonder if all the meteorite museum trades will be in question if they started chasing all ex Nasa/Government material - one wonders where it would end, which is why its lunacy, (and probably the result of Lawyers and pen pushers taking over from where intelligent scientists, engineers and good people once stood...) Mark -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Michael Gilmer Sent: 04 July 2011 15:26 To: MexicoDoug Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut Hi Doug and List, Happy Fourth of July to our astronauts who are being harassed for having garage sales! What an absolute waste of taxpayer money and manpower (again). At what point did our government go an Syd Barrett acid trip and not come back? This kind of thing sickens me. It makes me ashamed to be associated in any way with our mentally-defective government. Has all common sense and decency gone out the window in this day of lawsuits and ignorance? The elites and their sycophants don't care that people are losing their homes, going hungry, and going without medical care in this country. But yet we can piss away vast sums of money to investigate, harass, and prosecute people for selling dusty swatches of tape and old obsolete cameras. It's friggin disgusting. I've been saying this for 20 years and now the people are finally catching up with what I have been saying - this government needs to be replaced from the ground up. It's broken, it's been co-opted by megalomaniac elitists, and the fed is being used as a tool to oppress the people. Our founding fathers are rolling over in their graves over 1000 things, and now this campaign of astronaut harassment makes it 1001 things. What message does this send to science-inspired youngsters who might pursue a career in the space program? ---> "Hey kids! You'll retire poor and your pension won't cover your basic expenses, so when you try to have a garage sale, you'll be harassed for it and threatened with criminal charges so we can prevent the spread of dirty tape and obsolete cameras! God Bless America!" I really need to stop reading or answering these posts before my coffee kicks in. Is my vitriol running too freely this morning? LOL Best regards and best of luck to our HERO astronauts, MikeG -- - Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Meteorites & Amber (Michael Gilmer) Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 - On 7/4/11, MexicoDoug wrote: > http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/90053154?U.S.%20government%20sues%20former%20astronaut%20over%20lunar%20camera#ixzz1R7PMDp3p > > Dear list, > > This is a very relevant case to meteorites and should not be taken > lightly. > > They're at it again ... rewriting history and after 40 years of NASA's > permission to take mementos from the Apollo era - now suing the sixth > man to walk on the moon, Edgar Mitchell of Apollo 11, for trying to > sell the camera they allowed him to have ... the precedent, I suspect > is the identical one to the dust on the tape, which didn't exist, but > they are gunning for now. > > Again, we are faced with the erosion of sensible property rights, a > violation of traditional English and Roman law regarding the importance > of possession IMO, in an effort to legislation effort from the bench at > its finest (sarcasm). The question at hand: Can we apply today's > standards retroactively to say NASA was wrong to allow astronauts to > have things that were of no use to NASA at the time and with the full > knowledge of NASA allowed to be kept by those involved. After 40 years > of knowledge that the astronaut possessed this camera and other sundry > things, it becomes a precedent, and NASA is even painting an American > hero with a scarlet letter of "T" for "Thief" > > From the article: > > "During the Apollo mission era, Mitchell said he and other astronauts > got permission to take mementos from the spacecrafts. "We have dozens > of pieces. All of us who flew to the moon," he said
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut
Without knowing the U.S.-system, I suppose penologic yes, but by civil law? Anyway, to me it sounds rather like a disgusting publicity gag of a law firm. Or maybe caused by craving for attention, like that prosecutor in the dust-case recently. Hey, NASA can keep our stinky old V2-rockets btw. And anyway the Moon was conveyed by Frederick II. of Prussia on July 15 in 1756 to Mr. Aul Juergens. The document of the deed of gift still exists. So NASA shall give the Apollo rocks to Mr.Martin Juergens a legitimate heir of Aul Juergens. ;-? Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von geo...@aol.com Gesendet: Montag, 4. Juli 2011 16:26 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut >>Yes but why is it 'a legal one' now as opposed to 30 years ago?<< Would Statue of Limitations apply here? GeoZay __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut
I agreewhy does NASA now have to recover this camera after 30 years? There should be a "statute of limitations" or something against this action by NASA. Just can't see how "NASA is probably determined by law to sue to retrieve the objects." That is just bull!! Kirk.. - Original Message - From: "Mark Ford" To: Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 9:19 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut Yes but why is it 'a legal one' now as opposed to 30 years ago? -Original Message- From: James Sleep [mailto:jsl...@provide.net] Sent: 04 July 2011 14:38 To: Mark Ford Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut I think the problem is a simple legal one. It is probably like the owner of a business using business stuff for personal use. It is illegal. It was probably illegal to give away the camera, and other stuff, because it is material that belongs to the business-NASA. NASA is probably determined by law to sue to retrieve the objects or value of the objects. Just like the owner of a trademark is legally obliged to sue someone who uses that trademark illegally or risk losing the trademark. Sometimes it is the law that requires you to sue James -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Mark Ford Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 9:06 AM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut Well spotted Hehe, (now who's rewriting history ;) lol. Seriously though I think the Astronauts should refuse to do any more PR work for Nasa over this, it's disgraceful. (Assuming the press reports are true of course). These Guys and girls put their lives on the line - Granted there's a potentially difference from cadging some scrap stuff from work and being officially awarded/given it in writing, but I can't help thinking this is more about 'recovering valuable items', rather than anything else Mark -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of geo...@aol.com Sent: 04 July 2011 13:52 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut They're at it again ... rewriting history and after 40 years of NASA's permission to take mementos from the Apollo era - now suing the sixth man to walk on the moon, Edgar Mitchell of Apollo 11, for trying to sell the camera they allowed him to have ... << Edgar Mitchell wasn't on Apollo 11Michael Collins, Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong were. GeoZay __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut
Yes, Mike, the misplaced priorities given NASA's budget woes were not lost on me when thinking of the young lawyers working for or being retained by NASA to harass these true Human (and American) heroes, for the little perks enjoyed by the guys that were the common practice at the time among all astronauts, and just as well could have ended up in a garbage dumpster or some warehouse which was later auctioned off to the public for two cents per item if that. These are all violations of the Astronaut's rights under the US Constitution's Bill of Rights: Fourth, Fifth as well as Fourteenth amendments. As for the statute of limitations question, usually statutes of limitations doesn't apply to governments ;-), but that is predicated on the premise that they weren't allowed to have these mission scraps at the time and that they just as well couldn't have been thrown away or lost forever if not for the nostalgic instincts of these guys. (sound familiar?) Norm's comment on the shoulder patch was a good one. Lots of authentic patches out there now that the number of Astronauts are dwindling. Michael Collins flight suit was recently up for sale also. It was recovered from his old locker when they cleaned it out by his personal trainer at the time ... Best wishes Doug -Original Message- From: Michael Gilmer To: MexicoDoug Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, Jul 4, 2011 10:26 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut Hi Doug and List, Happy Fourth of July to our astronauts who are being harassed for having garage sales! What an absolute waste of taxpayer money and manpower (again). At what point did our government go an Syd Barrett acid trip and not come back? This kind of thing sickens me. It makes me ashamed to be associated in any way with our mentally-defective government. Has all common sense and decency gone out the window in this day of lawsuits and ignorance? The elites and their sycophants don't care that people are losing their homes, going hungry, and going without medical care in this country. But yet we can piss away vast sums of money to investigate, harass, and prosecute people for selling dusty swatches of tape and old obsolete cameras. It's friggin disgusting. I've been saying this for 20 years and now the people are finally catching up with what I have been saying - this government needs to be replaced from the ground up. It's broken, it's been co-opted by megalomaniac elitists, and the fed is being used as a tool to oppress the people. Our founding fathers are rolling over in their graves over 1000 things, and now this campaign of astronaut harassment makes it 1001 things. What message does this send to science-inspired youngsters who might pursue a career in the space program? ---> "Hey kids! You'll retire poor and your pension won't cover your basic expenses, so when you try to have a garage sale, you'll be harassed for it and threatened with criminal charges so we can prevent the spread of dirty tape and obsolete cameras! God Bless America!" I really need to stop reading or answering these posts before my coffee kicks in. Is my vitriol running too freely this morning? LOL Best regards and best of luck to our HERO astronauts, MikeG -- - Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Meteorites & Amber (Michael Gilmer) Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 - On 7/4/11, MexicoDoug wrote: http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/90053154?U.S.%20government%20sues%20former%20astronaut%20over%20lunar%20camera#ixzz1R7PMDp3p Dear list, This is a very relevant case to meteorites and should not be taken lightly. They're at it again ... rewriting history and after 40 years of NASA's permission to take mementos from the Apollo era - now suing the sixth man to walk on the moon, Edgar Mitchell of Apollo 11, for trying to sell the camera they allowed him to have ... the precedent, I suspect is the identical one to the dust on the tape, which didn't exist, but they are gunning for now. Again, we are faced with the erosion of sensible property rights, a violation of traditional English and Roman law regarding the importance of possession IMO, in an effort to legislation effort from the bench at its finest (sarcasm). The question at hand: Can we apply today's standards retroactively to say NASA was wrong to allow astronauts to have things that were of no use to NASA at the time and with the full knowledge of NASA allowed to be kept by those
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut
Edgar Mitchell is the only crew member of Apollo 14 still alive and was the pilot of the Lunar Module. Apollo 14 Commander - Alan (Al) B. Shepard, Jr.; Command Module Pilot - Stuart (Stu) A. Roosa; Lunar Module Pilot - Edgar (Ed) D. Mitchell) Speaking of the Apollo 14 Moon landing: It was standard practice around NASA to allow astronauts to have all kinds of keepsakes after their heroic and trailblazing deeds in space. In 2009, Bonham's unsuccessfully auctioned for Fred Haise (Apollo 13) the Apollo 14 dust brush that was used to remove all the bothersome Lunar dust from all the camera lenses they took to the Lunar surface, and this brush proved a valuble work item. Someone may know where this brush is today. It was one of the consolation gifts to Haise (dedicated: To Fred, from Al, Stu and Ed). Fred Haise would have been the sixth man to walk on the Moon but lost that title to Edgar Mitchell since Apollo 13 achieved Lunar orbit but aborted the landing. From the Bonham's 2009 catalog (which has all kinds of navigational charts and flags taken to the Moon and returned - an appropriate July 4 comment in itself): "We also offer a lunar surface dust brush directly from the collection of Apollo 13 Astronaut Fred Haise and prized for its time spent on the moon. It was used during two Extra Vehicular Activities (EVAs), or Moonwalks, of the Apollo 14 mission to remove moon dust from the lenses of film and TV cameras. Also expected to inspire fierce bidding is a flight vehicle attitude hand controller assembly unit that was part of the Apollo 15 Lunar Module. Considering that Lunar Modules were never designed to return to earth, this lot’s appearance on the market is extraordinarily" Best wishes Doug -Original Message- From: geo...@aol.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, Jul 4, 2011 8:51 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut They're at it again ... rewriting history and after 40 years of NASA's permission to take mementos from the Apollo era - now suing the sixth man to walk on the moon, Edgar Mitchell of Apollo 11, for trying to sell the camera they allowed him to have ... << Edgar Mitchell wasn't on Apollo 11Michael Collins, Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong were. GeoZay __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut
Hi Doug and List, Happy Fourth of July to our astronauts who are being harassed for having garage sales! What an absolute waste of taxpayer money and manpower (again). At what point did our government go an Syd Barrett acid trip and not come back? This kind of thing sickens me. It makes me ashamed to be associated in any way with our mentally-defective government. Has all common sense and decency gone out the window in this day of lawsuits and ignorance? The elites and their sycophants don't care that people are losing their homes, going hungry, and going without medical care in this country. But yet we can piss away vast sums of money to investigate, harass, and prosecute people for selling dusty swatches of tape and old obsolete cameras. It's friggin disgusting. I've been saying this for 20 years and now the people are finally catching up with what I have been saying - this government needs to be replaced from the ground up. It's broken, it's been co-opted by megalomaniac elitists, and the fed is being used as a tool to oppress the people. Our founding fathers are rolling over in their graves over 1000 things, and now this campaign of astronaut harassment makes it 1001 things. What message does this send to science-inspired youngsters who might pursue a career in the space program? ---> "Hey kids! You'll retire poor and your pension won't cover your basic expenses, so when you try to have a garage sale, you'll be harassed for it and threatened with criminal charges so we can prevent the spread of dirty tape and obsolete cameras! God Bless America!" I really need to stop reading or answering these posts before my coffee kicks in. Is my vitriol running too freely this morning? LOL Best regards and best of luck to our HERO astronauts, MikeG -- - Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Meteorites & Amber (Michael Gilmer) Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 - On 7/4/11, MexicoDoug wrote: > http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/90053154?U.S.%20government%20sues%20former%20astronaut%20over%20lunar%20camera#ixzz1R7PMDp3p > > Dear list, > > This is a very relevant case to meteorites and should not be taken > lightly. > > They're at it again ... rewriting history and after 40 years of NASA's > permission to take mementos from the Apollo era - now suing the sixth > man to walk on the moon, Edgar Mitchell of Apollo 11, for trying to > sell the camera they allowed him to have ... the precedent, I suspect > is the identical one to the dust on the tape, which didn't exist, but > they are gunning for now. > > Again, we are faced with the erosion of sensible property rights, a > violation of traditional English and Roman law regarding the importance > of possession IMO, in an effort to legislation effort from the bench at > its finest (sarcasm). The question at hand: Can we apply today's > standards retroactively to say NASA was wrong to allow astronauts to > have things that were of no use to NASA at the time and with the full > knowledge of NASA allowed to be kept by those involved. After 40 years > of knowledge that the astronaut possessed this camera and other sundry > things, it becomes a precedent, and NASA is even painting an American > hero with a scarlet letter of "T" for "Thief" > > From the article: > > "During the Apollo mission era, Mitchell said he and other astronauts > got permission to take mementos from the spacecrafts. "We have dozens > of pieces. All of us who flew to the moon," he said in a Palm Beach > Post report. > > Mitchell’s lawyer, Donald Jacobson, said, "Objects from the lunar trips > to the moon were ultimately mounted and then presented to the > astronauts as a gift after they had helped NASA on a mission." > > The government is asking the court to order Mitchell to hand over the > camera, and declare that it has "good, clean and exclusive title" to > the piece of space history. > > > Best wishes > Doug > __ > Visit the Archives at > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut
>>Yes but why is it 'a legal one' now as opposed to 30 years ago?<< Would Statue of Limitations apply here? GeoZay __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut
Yes but why is it 'a legal one' now as opposed to 30 years ago? -Original Message- From: James Sleep [mailto:jsl...@provide.net] Sent: 04 July 2011 14:38 To: Mark Ford Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut I think the problem is a simple legal one. It is probably like the owner of a business using business stuff for personal use. It is illegal. It was probably illegal to give away the camera, and other stuff, because it is material that belongs to the business-NASA. NASA is probably determined by law to sue to retrieve the objects or value of the objects. Just like the owner of a trademark is legally obliged to sue someone who uses that trademark illegally or risk losing the trademark. Sometimes it is the law that requires you to sue James -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Mark Ford Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 9:06 AM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut Well spotted Hehe, (now who's rewriting history ;) lol. Seriously though I think the Astronauts should refuse to do any more PR work for Nasa over this, it's disgraceful. (Assuming the press reports are true of course). These Guys and girls put their lives on the line - Granted there's a potentially difference from cadging some scrap stuff from work and being officially awarded/given it in writing, but I can't help thinking this is more about 'recovering valuable items', rather than anything else Mark -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of geo...@aol.com Sent: 04 July 2011 13:52 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut >>They're at it again ... rewriting history and after 40 years of NASA's permission to take mementos from the Apollo era - now suing the sixth man to walk on the moon, Edgar Mitchell of Apollo 11, for trying to sell the camera they allowed him to have ... << Edgar Mitchell wasn't on Apollo 11Michael Collins, Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong were. GeoZay __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut
List, This is getting totally out of hand. Did any of you catch this press release? “NASA officials are demanding the return of the mission shoulder patch that Bruce Willis sent back to Billy Bob Thornton in the 1998 film Armageddon. While acknowledging that this was just a film, NASA claims the shoulder patch is never-the-less a national treasure, and the actor that saved all mankind from certain destruction by an earth-smashing asteroid had no right to salvage and transfer ownership of the mission patch. “Although fictional, this mission is seen by many as a likely future event, and as such, all of the memorabilia from the film is being recovered and safeguarded for the day when they become sacred objects associated with the prophecy of NASA’s brightest moment” claimed inside sources who asked to keep their identities confidential. “Insofar as they used the NASA insignia, we have been advised to assert ownership now rather than after the portrayed event has taken place". " (source publication not disclosed) What next? Norm - Original Message From: Martin Altmann To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, July 4, 2011 4:17:37 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut Indeed it is not so much a legal question, it is a question of decency. Seems that a new generation was bred by NASA. How disrespectful and ungrateful can you still be for that by all means truly heroic deeds the astronauts did for NASA and the nation, to molest them now at their old-age with such a petty and greedy idiocy! I think, it's a question of reason and saving the face of that governmental spaceflight organization to remove these shameless rugrats, who had that brilliant idea, immediately from their jobs. NASA was scrooge enough to them with their Moon rocks. Meteorite people are different... Look, here Mitchell receives a piece of Moon via Tim Heitz: http://www.meteorman.org/Ed-Mitchell.htm Best, Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von MexicoDoug Gesendet: Montag, 4. Juli 2011 09:31 An: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/90053154?U.S.%20government%20sues%20former%20astronaut%20over%20lunar%20camera#ixzz1R7PMDp3p Dear list, This is a very relevant case to meteorites and should not be taken lightly. They're at it again ... rewriting history and after 40 years of NASA's permission to take mementos from the Apollo era - now suing the sixth man to walk on the moon, Edgar Mitchell of Apollo 11, for trying to sell the camera they allowed him to have ... the precedent, I suspect is the identical one to the dust on the tape, which didn't exist, but they are gunning for now. Again, we are faced with the erosion of sensible property rights, a violation of traditional English and Roman law regarding the importance of possession IMO, in an effort to legislation effort from the bench at its finest (sarcasm). The question at hand: Can we apply today's standards retroactively to say NASA was wrong to allow astronauts to have things that were of no use to NASA at the time and with the full knowledge of NASA allowed to be kept by those involved. After 40 years of knowledge that the astronaut possessed this camera and other sundry things, it becomes a precedent, and NASA is even painting an American hero with a scarlet letter of "T" for "Thief" From the article: "During the Apollo mission era, Mitchell said he and other astronauts got permission to take mementos from the spacecrafts. "We have dozens of pieces. All of us who flew to the moon," he said in a Palm Beach Post report. Mitchell’s lawyer, Donald Jacobson, said, "Objects from the lunar trips to the moon were ultimately mounted and then presented to the astronauts as a gift after they had helped NASA on a mission." The government is asking the court to order Mitchell to hand over the camera, and declare that it has "good, clean and exclusive title" to the piece of space history. Best wishes Doug __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut
I think the problem is a simple legal one. It is probably like the owner of a business using business stuff for personal use. It is illegal. It was probably illegal to give away the camera, and other stuff, because it is material that belongs to the business-NASA. NASA is probably determined by law to sue to retrieve the objects or value of the objects. Just like the owner of a trademark is legally obliged to sue someone who uses that trademark illegally or risk losing the trademark. Sometimes it is the law that requires you to sue James -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Mark Ford Sent: Monday, July 04, 2011 9:06 AM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut Well spotted Hehe, (now who's rewriting history ;) lol. Seriously though I think the Astronauts should refuse to do any more PR work for Nasa over this, it's disgraceful. (Assuming the press reports are true of course). These Guys and girls put their lives on the line - Granted there's a potentially difference from cadging some scrap stuff from work and being officially awarded/given it in writing, but I can't help thinking this is more about 'recovering valuable items', rather than anything else Mark -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of geo...@aol.com Sent: 04 July 2011 13:52 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut >>They're at it again ... rewriting history and after 40 years of NASA's permission to take mementos from the Apollo era - now suing the sixth man to walk on the moon, Edgar Mitchell of Apollo 11, for trying to sell the camera they allowed him to have ... << Edgar Mitchell wasn't on Apollo 11Michael Collins, Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong were. GeoZay __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut
Indeed it is not so much a legal question, it is a question of decency. Seems that a new generation was bred by NASA. How disrespectful and ungrateful can you still be for that by all means truly heroic deeds the astronauts did for NASA and the nation, to molest them now at their old-age with such a petty and greedy idiocy! I think, it's a question of reason and saving the face of that governmental spaceflight organization to remove these shameless rugrats, who had that brilliant idea, immediately from their jobs. NASA was scrooge enough to them with their Moon rocks. Meteorite people are different... Look, here Mitchell receives a piece of Moon via Tim Heitz: http://www.meteorman.org/Ed-Mitchell.htm Best, Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von MexicoDoug Gesendet: Montag, 4. Juli 2011 09:31 An: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/90053154?U.S.%20government%20sues%20former%20astronaut%20over%20lunar%20camera#ixzz1R7PMDp3p Dear list, This is a very relevant case to meteorites and should not be taken lightly. They're at it again ... rewriting history and after 40 years of NASA's permission to take mementos from the Apollo era - now suing the sixth man to walk on the moon, Edgar Mitchell of Apollo 11, for trying to sell the camera they allowed him to have ... the precedent, I suspect is the identical one to the dust on the tape, which didn't exist, but they are gunning for now. Again, we are faced with the erosion of sensible property rights, a violation of traditional English and Roman law regarding the importance of possession IMO, in an effort to legislation effort from the bench at its finest (sarcasm). The question at hand: Can we apply today's standards retroactively to say NASA was wrong to allow astronauts to have things that were of no use to NASA at the time and with the full knowledge of NASA allowed to be kept by those involved. After 40 years of knowledge that the astronaut possessed this camera and other sundry things, it becomes a precedent, and NASA is even painting an American hero with a scarlet letter of "T" for "Thief" From the article: "During the Apollo mission era, Mitchell said he and other astronauts got permission to take mementos from the spacecrafts. "We have dozens of pieces. All of us who flew to the moon," he said in a Palm Beach Post report. Mitchell’s lawyer, Donald Jacobson, said, "Objects from the lunar trips to the moon were ultimately mounted and then presented to the astronauts as a gift after they had helped NASA on a mission." The government is asking the court to order Mitchell to hand over the camera, and declare that it has "good, clean and exclusive title" to the piece of space history. Best wishes Doug __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut
Well spotted Hehe, (now who's rewriting history ;) lol. Seriously though I think the Astronauts should refuse to do any more PR work for Nasa over this, it's disgraceful. (Assuming the press reports are true of course). These Guys and girls put their lives on the line - Granted there's a potentially difference from cadging some scrap stuff from work and being officially awarded/given it in writing, but I can't help thinking this is more about 'recovering valuable items', rather than anything else Mark -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of geo...@aol.com Sent: 04 July 2011 13:52 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut >>They're at it again ... rewriting history and after 40 years of NASA's permission to take mementos from the Apollo era - now suing the sixth man to walk on the moon, Edgar Mitchell of Apollo 11, for trying to sell the camera they allowed him to have ... << Edgar Mitchell wasn't on Apollo 11Michael Collins, Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong were. GeoZay __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut
>>They're at it again ... rewriting history and after 40 years of NASA's permission to take mementos from the Apollo era - now suing the sixth man to walk on the moon, Edgar Mitchell of Apollo 11, for trying to sell the camera they allowed him to have ... << Edgar Mitchell wasn't on Apollo 11Michael Collins, Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong were. GeoZay __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] NASA sues Moonwalker Astronaut
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/90053154?U.S.%20government%20sues%20former%20astronaut%20over%20lunar%20camera#ixzz1R7PMDp3p Dear list, This is a very relevant case to meteorites and should not be taken lightly. They're at it again ... rewriting history and after 40 years of NASA's permission to take mementos from the Apollo era - now suing the sixth man to walk on the moon, Edgar Mitchell of Apollo 11, for trying to sell the camera they allowed him to have ... the precedent, I suspect is the identical one to the dust on the tape, which didn't exist, but they are gunning for now. Again, we are faced with the erosion of sensible property rights, a violation of traditional English and Roman law regarding the importance of possession IMO, in an effort to legislation effort from the bench at its finest (sarcasm). The question at hand: Can we apply today's standards retroactively to say NASA was wrong to allow astronauts to have things that were of no use to NASA at the time and with the full knowledge of NASA allowed to be kept by those involved. After 40 years of knowledge that the astronaut possessed this camera and other sundry things, it becomes a precedent, and NASA is even painting an American hero with a scarlet letter of "T" for "Thief" From the article: "During the Apollo mission era, Mitchell said he and other astronauts got permission to take mementos from the spacecrafts. "We have dozens of pieces. All of us who flew to the moon," he said in a Palm Beach Post report. Mitchell’s lawyer, Donald Jacobson, said, "Objects from the lunar trips to the moon were ultimately mounted and then presented to the astronauts as a gift after they had helped NASA on a mission." The government is asking the court to order Mitchell to hand over the camera, and declare that it has "good, clean and exclusive title" to the piece of space history. Best wishes Doug __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
