Re: [meteorite-list] Triangulation
Greetings, Harvey Nininger who witnessed the November 9th 1923 super bright meteor fall at McPherson, College, made his eye witness notes and went on to contact newspapers, witnesses on each side of the fall. While this particular use of triangulation did not yield the actual meteorite from the fall withnessed, it did result in several other meteorites being found. Harvey used this method many times. He used it with the Norton County fall I believe and was able to locate that meteorite with triangulation. He was standing on the meteorite in it's pit when Lincoln Lapaz and his group walked over to the site. I'll have to look up and try to put together various meteorites that Nininger found using this method. Best! --AL Mitterling - Original Message - From: Doug Ross d...@dougross.net To: Meteorite List List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Triangulation Not until the 1970's? Really? I understand that we now have great modern advantages for accurate triangulation, with sky-cams, radar data, and the like. And granted, even with all of this technology, strewn fields are often difficult to pinpoint today. But it's hard to believe that it took over 150 years after general scientific acceptance of the fireball/meteorite connection for somebody to start accurately tracking these suckers. Perhaps I could refine the question to help narrow the possible contenders. Who was the first person to recover meteorites from a witnessed fall based on triangulation calcualtions *without the benefit of anecdotal information or finds by local residents (apart from fireball reports)*? -Tocayo d...@dougross.net __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list - Original Message - From: Doug Ross d...@dougross.net To: Meteorite List List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Triangulation Not until the 1970's? Really? I understand that we now have great modern advantages for accurate triangulation, with sky-cams, radar data, and the like. And granted, even with all of this technology, strewn fields are often difficult to pinpoint today. But it's hard to believe that it took over 150 years after general scientific acceptance of the fireball/meteorite connection for somebody to start accurately tracking these suckers. Perhaps I could refine the question to help narrow the possible contenders. Who was the first person to recover meteorites from a witnessed fall based on triangulation calcualtions *without the benefit of anecdotal information or finds by local residents (apart from fireball reports)*? -Tocayo d...@dougross.net __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Triangulation
Hi Al, But if Lapaz also arrived on the scene as shortly after Nininger as it sounds, unless Nininger invited him, it is because so local tipped off Lapaz which increases the liklihood the same was the case with Nininger. Is there any reference there as to whether the mass was found without any tips, as I believe the question was trying to identify which meteorite was recovered in the field first by the person doing the triangulation, a small fact which easily can be overlooked. I would expect some meteorites were recovered in a similar fashion in the end relying on tips from the locals with general triangulation information - even as Martin points out, Lost City and I would add Příbram years earlier, by local witnesses. The latter 1959 fall was called Příbram, but really found at the small population of Luhy. Perhaps if not for the triangulation this meteorite would still be in the museum with the official name of Luhy, had it not been for the triangulation exercise with the sky-cameras which only lead getting the general area of the fall, but not necessarily exactyly into the strewn field. Kindest wishes Doug (A fellow Nininger admirer who appreciates your capsules online about him and refers to them frequently) -Original Message- From: al mitt alm...@kconline.com To: Meteorite List List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wed, Oct 26, 2011 8:18 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Triangulation Greetings, Harvey Nininger who witnessed the November 9th 1923 super bright meteor fall at McPherson, College, made his eye witness notes and went on to contact newspapers, witnesses on each side of the fall. While this particular use of triangulation did not yield the actual meteorite from the fall withnessed, it did result in several other meteorites being found. Harvey used this method many times. He used it with the Norton County fall I believe and was able to locate that meteorite with triangulation. He was standing on the meteorite in it's pit when Lincoln Lapaz and his group walked over to the site. I'll have to look up and try to put together various meteorites that Nininger found using this method. Best! --AL Mitterling - Original Message - From: Doug Ross d...@dougross.net To: Meteorite List List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Triangulation Not until the 1970's? Really? I understand that we now have great modern advantages for accurate triangulation, with sky-cams, radar data, and the like. And granted, even with all of this technology, strewn fields are often difficult to pinpoint today. But it's hard to believe that it took over 150 years after general scientific acceptance of the fireball/meteorite connection for somebody to start accurately tracking these suckers. Perhaps I could refine the question to help narrow the possible contenders. Who was the first person to recover meteorites from a witnessed fall based on triangulation calcualtions *without the benefit of anecdotal information or finds by local residents (apart from fireball reports)*? -Tocayo d...@dougross.net __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list - Original Message - From: Doug Ross d...@dougross.net To: Meteorite List List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Triangulation Not until the 1970's? Really? I understand that we now have great modern advantages for accurate triangulation, with sky-cams, radar data, and the like. And granted, even with all of this technology, strewn fields are often difficult to pinpoint today. But it's hard to believe that it took over 150 years after general scientific acceptance of the fireball/meteorite connection for somebody to start accurately tracking these suckers. Perhaps I could refine the question to help narrow the possible contenders. Who was the first person to recover meteorites from a witnessed fall based on triangulation calcualtions *without the benefit of anecdotal information or finds by local residents (apart from fireball reports)*? -Tocayo d...@dougross.net __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Triangulation
Hi Al and Doug, Thanks for your interest in my question about meteorite recoveries based on triangulation. Harvey Nininger certainly seems to be a likely candidate for the first hunter to have pulled this off. Rocks from Space credits him as the first person to locate a meteorite from fireball reports, and includes an account of Nininger correctly tracking the 1933 Pasamonte fireball to a specific ranch in New Mexico (though when he got there, a ranch hand had already recovered stones). I fear the farther back we look into historic falls, the less certainty we can have that triangulation alone led to recovery, since most of the finders are no longer available to give detailed accounts of the recovery. Maybe a better question would be to what extent has the advent of triangulation enhanced the recovery rate for witnessed falls? Regardless of what other tips or assistance might have been employed, has the refinement of fireball trajectory calculations led to a significantly higher recovery rate for witnessed falls? I would assume so. But it would be interesting to compare, say, 19th century recovery rates vs. 20th century recovery rates. Of course, it's easy for me to pose these kinds of questions. Not so easy to come up with the answers! ;-) Doug Ross d...@dougross.net __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Triangulation (was ...Part II: American David Rittenhouse (Warning - Pre-Chladni))
That, Tocayo*, is a superb question that likely will be deliciously contentious. There is a fine line between saying you are triangulating and actually relying on triangulation to make the recovery. For example when Dima, Sergey and I used Radar information to discover the Ash Creek Bolide fragments two days after the sighting: our triangulation accurately put us as the first meteorite hunters inside the strewn field, but it was a tip from a local that actually gave us the further clue to make our first recoveries that day. Just because you are there doesn't guarantee anything! My guess is that Nininger had the same situation in most of his recoveries. Perhaps Lost City is actually the first truly triangulated find. But I hope there is a better example, perhaps Nininger's as you say. Kindest wishes Doug Tocayo = Mexican for namesake, but is an informal word enjoying widespread use -Original Message- From: Doug Ross d...@dougross.net To: Meteorite List List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:06 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Part II: American David Rittenhouse (Warning - Pre-Chladni) Thanks for the fascinating discussion, gentlemen! A great account of the rigorous, often slow process that revolutionary new scientific theories must go through before gaining widespread acceptance. I have a related question. Who was the first person to accurately calculate the trajectories of meteors, and successfully recover meteorites based on those calculations? I'm not talking about someone who witnessed a meteor, and was lucky enough to have stones landing nearby. In other words, who was the first systematic meteorite hunter? Was it Nininger? - (the other) Doug d...@dougross.net __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Triangulation
Not until the 1970's? Really? I understand that we now have great modern advantages for accurate triangulation, with sky-cams, radar data, and the like. And granted, even with all of this technology, strewn fields are often difficult to pinpoint today. But it's hard to believe that it took over 150 years after general scientific acceptance of the fireball/meteorite connection for somebody to start accurately tracking these suckers. Perhaps I could refine the question to help narrow the possible contenders. Who was the first person to recover meteorites from a witnessed fall based on triangulation calcualtions *without the benefit of anecdotal information or finds by local residents (apart from fireball reports)*? -Tocayo d...@dougross.net __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Triangulation (was ...Part II: American David Rittenhouse (Warning - Pre-Chladni))
Yes, it would have to be a first recovery to eliminate any dispute, I think. I am thinking of a situation where the fireball was witnessed and well documented, but no locals saw, heard, nor found any stones. I suppose if the triangulation hunter came along and defined the search area fairly narrowly to begin with, then recruiting locals to help search that area wouldn't necessarily disqualify a find. Basically, I'm wondering what's the first find that would probably not have occurred without accurate triangulation calculations? -DR On Oct 23, 2011, at 5:14 PM, MexicoDoug wrote: Hi Tocayo (that's what you'd call me, you probably would sign Doug, but still it isnt wrong use, just not as common use) Martin now says no to Lost City ... and There is more than this to it. How do you count a situation where a fireball is triangulated the hunter arrives at the strewn field and offers an incentive to them. The question needs to be further limited to the first recovery, I think? But what of the case where a local finds one and the triangulation hunter comes and without input finds a fragment at a later date. I am thinking that the US would be the most likely place and a tiny possibility of it being one of the few witnessed falls from about 1850 to date when triangulation became refined. But we get back to the same thing. Nininger set this sort of program up, but did he ever succeed in finding the first based on anecdotes and tips where no one had seen a stone but the phenomenon was observed and related to the hunter wh crunched that. I can't think of one offhand that Nininger found cold based on triangulation. There are Nininger gurus on the list that could say! Not me on this one... Kindest wsihes Doug -Original Message- From: Doug Ross d...@dougross.net To: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Sent: Sun, Oct 23, 2011 6:58 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Triangulation (was ...Part II: American David Rittenhouse (Warning - Pre-Chladni)) Not until the 1970's? Really? I understand that we now have great modern advantages for accurate triangulation, with sky-cams, radar data, and the like. And granted, even with all of this technology, strewn fields are often difficult to pinpoint today. But it's hard to believe that it took over 150 years after general scientific acceptance of the fireball/meteorite connection for somebody to start accurately tracking these suckers. Perhaps I could refine the question to help narrow the possible contenders. Who was the first person to recover meteorites from a witnessed fall based on triangulation calcualtions *without the benefit of anecdotal information or finds by local residents (apart from fireball reports)*? -Tocayo d...@dougross.net Doug Ross d...@dougross.net __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Triangulation method for determining Norwegian bolide burst/impac t point
Hi All, Seems like each time I take a short vacation, a bolide falls somewhere triggering an e-mail box full of messages! ;-) Marco wrote: I am curious to know whether the seismic data point to an airblast or a real impact (that is not yet clear to me). Not everything giving off strong sonic booms ends on the ground, you know. There is an interesting variation on triangulation that may be possible on this particular event. If I've read the message chain right and interpreted the Norwegian links correctly, two seismic stations detected this event. If they both measured a terminal burst (or both measured an actual ground impact), then the locus of points satisfying the delay in sonic arrival time between the two stations defines a 3-D, approximately hyperbolic surface. By itself, this surface isn't useful for determining the actual impact point. But a visual observation (photo) defines a plane of motion for the bolide. When you intersect this plane with the hyperboloid, you'll get a portion of a 2-D conic: most likely part of an ellipse, though a hyperbola, parabola or circle are all possible depending on the geometry. By constraining the altitude of the sonic event, you will greatly shrink the size of this conic segment. In the limit that you assume the burst occurred at ground level, the solution reduces to a single point (or under some geometries, two points). --Rob __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
