[meteorite-list] Provenance
An example: If I would make a trade with a museum to obtain a piece from the former Chladni collection, then the value for the meteorite gain by its added historic meaning. If I ' m buying a meteorite from Haag, Hupe, Farmer etc. then last et least I pay the price I would agree with myself. Is it possible to get a better piece for the same price by an unknown dealer I would prefer to trade there. Names like Haag, Farmer, Hupe etc. or an NON historic provenance doesn't make the meteorite more valuable. Did you ever heard that any of the scientists (and they are observing what's going on on the market; also the list- be shure) starting up or sharing such discussions with you about prices like you do? They knowing where is the real value of meteorites. I think they dislike it. Dealers always for shure (greedily) and collectors often deep in their hearts let money comes first to leave one'smark on the meteorites. For them, the evaluation for a meteorite is a summary of a lot positions - in contrast for scientist only counts what the meteorite can tell by itself. Such discussions harms the value of collecting; therfore for scientist a good reason to demand that meteorites doesn't belong in every ones hand. Do you want to go on? Stephan Kambach __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Provenance
An example: If I would make a trade with a museum to obtain a piece from the former Chladni collection, then the value for the meteorite gain by its added historic meaning. If I ' m buying a meteorite from Haag, Hupe, Farmer etc. then last et least I pay the price I would agree with myself. Is it possible to get a better piece for the same price by an unknown dealer I would prefer to trade there. Names like Haag, Farmer, Hupe etc. or an NON historic provenance doesn't make the meteorite more valuable. Did you ever heard that any of the scientists (and they are observing what's going on on the market; also the list- be shure) starting up or sharing such discussions with you about prices like you do? They knowing where is the real value of meteorites. I think they dislike it. Dealers always for shure (greedily) and collectors often deep in their hearts let money comes first to leave one'smark on the meteorites. For them, the evaluation for a meteorite is a summary of a lot positions - in contrast for scientist only counts what the meteorite can tell by itself. Such discussions harms the value of collecting; therfore for scientist a good reason to demand that meteorites doesn't belong in every ones hand. Do you want to go on? Stephan Kambach __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance and the fickle mistress
Hi Stephan, The whole issue of COA's and provenance was accidental. This all started out with a post about a meteorite on a TV show. Discussions tend to wander into places not originally intended. I understand what you are saying and I agree in principle. But scientists and collectors have entirely different needs. Scientists care for what the meteorite can teach us. Collectors have hundreds of different reasons for collecting their stones. And collectors, like the market, can be fickle. Some care more about provenance than others. And some specimens don't profit much from provenance. Is a heavily-weathered unclassified NWA chondrite more valuable if it comes from Bob Haag or Joe Blow? Probably not. Is a nicely-prepared slice of Esquel more valuable if it comes from Bob Haag? To many collectors, yes. Best regards, MikeG -- --- Galactic Stone Ironworks - MikeG Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 --- On 3/23/12, Stephan Kambach stephan.kamb...@freenet.de wrote: An example: If I would make a trade with a museum to obtain a piece from the former Chladni collection, then the value for the meteorite gain by its added historic meaning. If I ' m buying a meteorite from Haag, Hupe, Farmer etc. then last et least I pay the price I would agree with myself. Is it possible to get a better piece for the same price by an unknown dealer I would prefer to trade there. Names like Haag, Farmer, Hupe etc. or an NON historic provenance doesn't make the meteorite more valuable. Did you ever heard that any of the scientists (and they are observing what's going on on the market; also the list- be shure) starting up or sharing such discussions with you about prices like you do? They knowing where is the real value of meteorites. I think they dislike it. Dealers always for shure (greedily) and collectors often deep in their hearts let money comes first to leave one'smark on the meteorites. For them, the evaluation for a meteorite is a summary of a lot positions - in contrast for scientist only counts what the meteorite can tell by itself. Such discussions harms the value of collecting; therfore for scientist a good reason to demand that meteorites doesn't belong in every ones hand. Do you want to go on? Stephan Kambach __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] provenance ( AD in the PS)
Thank you Doug. Meteorites has to be one of the toughest hobbies of hobbies because of so many uncontrollable variables, be it from a Sellers or a Collectors point of view. Sometimes I wonder if I should have put my energy and time into stock day trading rather then meteorites, since meteorite collecting and meteorite selling reminds me so much of Wall Street. lol Either way I think the results would be the same...I'd be broke! Have a great week and weekend ahead Doug and the rest of the List as well. Sincerely Don Merchant - Original Message - From: MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com To: dmerc...@rochester.rr.com; countde...@earthlink.net; jasonu...@gmail.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 1:43 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] provenance ( AD in the PS) Don wrote: I am sorry I even brought up provenance Hi Don. like I said, you had a few auctions I nearly jumped on and I definitely wasn't supposing anything about your high quality work. But when it gets hot in the kitchen the answer isn't to leave it; it's to make it better. My beef with this whole thing isn't with anyone in particular, you were just the messenger and everyone is in a different situation regarding what they know and what they are comfortable to disclose and people will do what that want. Depending on what someone is selling, the criteria of what constitutes Grade A Prime space rocks ''invariably change'. My beef is with the entire direction of the market and a feeling of powerlessness in it. How can I hide my feelings that if, for example today I want to accumulate my money for a large purchase rather than make several ones of lesser consequence, to stretch until it hurts and then some, just to have a choice piece in my collection, that I am forced to compete again others who have a completely different valuation procedure driving their decisions and effortlessly snatch it from my grasp since now in the meteorite world, killing the goose that lays the golden eggs actually works for them, but not me. Agh! The result is it is difficult to find these choice pieces even paying a premium, usually because I don't hear about them in time and they can't be sold and then are cut up, and I become frustrated. Keeping tabs on provenance is a great topic. the fact that it ruffles feathers only points toward it being a topic of extreme importance and I hope you aren't really too sorry about expressing your opinion - my only disagreement had nothing to do with the value of provenance, but rather ignoring other equally convincing factors regarding the dealing with authentic specimens in your personal purchase decisions to value it appropriately, since provenance isn't infallible either in the hands of some of the crooks on eBay we've seen. Maybe some day a magic tricorder will be pointed at meteorites, emit an eerie whirring sound and then have a readout of the meteorite's identification, like the keypad of a Meade Goto telescope, though calibration samples are guaranteed to be a beach ;-) When that day comes it will be a great day and I bet a lot of curators of museum collections will be among the first to line up to check their own provenances, just to be sure. Human error and neglect over the long haul is just as bad as dishonesty, and I am 100% with you on your strong opinion on the former. Good post, and please keep them coming. Kindest wishes Doug PS I'm going to try to sell a Wold Cottage Micro, 88 mg in a package deal with a 1787 King George III silver shilling (the shiny new coin that was used to gain admission to see the exhibit by Topham's curator on Picadilly, as the coins were not issued annually. If anyone wants to buy the coin/meteorite deal please contact me off list to save me a separate post which I haven't gotten around to doing for months. It has respectable provenance and the only reason I have it is because when I bought it it was written as 0.88 grams instead of 0.088 g (88 MG), which is below my collection threshold size). It may be 86 mg if I'm not recalling right but anyone interest I'll happily go find it and let you know! -Original Message- From: Don Merchant dmerc...@rochester.rr.com To: countdeiro countde...@earthlink.net; jasonutas jasonu...@gmail.com; meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Cc: Don Merchant dmerc...@rochester.rr.com Sent: Wed, Feb 15, 2012 12:49 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough Hi Doug and List. I appreciate your thoughts and opinions Doug. I would like to add several things though to help clarify any misconceptions either based on my statements or yours. First the whole idea of provenance is NOT used as a gimmick to sell. It is only an assurance to the potential buyer that what your buying is as best an honest description that I can provide that the specimen is the real McCoy. When I started collecting many years ago you could check out
Re: [meteorite-list] provenance
Martin, Respectfully, who made that rule? A meteorite is born, when it is published in the Bulletin. Jim Jim Wooddell http://k7wfr.us - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 6:54 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] provenance Hmm Don Doug, if you have such concerns about provenance, you could easily avoid the sorrows. A meteorite is born, when it is published in the Bulletin. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] provenance
Hi Doug, it was meant for fun, not for the silly discrimination which meteorites would be better than others. Though for an extreme purist of provenance and pedigree, those new finds could be indeed ideal. Cause he is then the founder of the pedigree, able to control the growth of the meteorite's family tree, that what he is missing so often with his historic specimens and their gaps from the day they once were picked up to the day he put it in his showcase. Do you remember still the times of the Dar al Ganis? There for the collector it was something new and something extremely thrilling, that you could become the owner of a complete find or a main mass and no matter whether it was an old OC. And that for the same reasons I tried to mention. Because in the post-Nininger-, post-Huss-, pre-desert-era with its only 2500 meteorites + Antarctics, that was really a difficult task. And if you remember those desert finds, they had a special prestige too, Lucky 13, Calcalong, DaG 400, NWA 032... That opened a new aspect and new possibilities in meteorite collecting. Well of course it's the individual habit and taste, which particular meteorites will make the individual collector happy. Collecting of, in a manner of speaking - vintage meteorites - sorry for the flat joke, all they have their 4.5 billion years - has without doubt also very satisfying and interesting aspects. Though I find also the idea fascinating and attractive, that - although one needs certainly some patience - that in 40, 50 years I can say - I lived and participated in the Golden Age of the Big Harvest, where so many of the today so prominent (and desirable) meteorites were recovered. Aura and patina - just some patience and they will come. Doug, wouldn't you love to jump in the time-machine to be there, when Shergotty was distributed, or to gather one of the first Krinov-Sikhotes - or to the year, where the now so popular Murchisons were sent for pennies around the globe? And I'm convinced, that they in their very beginning were as boring for the collectors like today for the historics fan a Tamdakht or a Bassikonou is boring. Huh funny thought, that then in 50, 100 years they could speak about the people we have here on the list, and it could be well possible, as we have an inflation of communication compared to then, that the collectors will speak about them like today about Foote or Ward and so on. Meteorites are the oldest matter we can grasp, we are getting old... If we allow us only a little longer interval on the time bar as a perspective, instead to pause in the here now, then, I tink, these new finds could develop a very thrilling attractiveness.. Best wishes! Martin PS: That's a new one on me! And Respectfully, who made that rule? A meteorite is born, when it is published in the Bulletin. The convention :-( Unpublished meteorites tend to get forgotten with time. And then they are just like those meteorites, which remained unfound. Note btw. also with the known meteorites and the tkws, especially the mass finds, that there in the end and quoted since, were always the weights, once published and overtaken in the Bulletins respectively in the first Catalogues. No matter how much was found later on after the first report in literature. Or take a more recent fall, like Lampyairie or what his name was. Hardly anyone remembers it after 10 years, and as it wasn't recorded in the Bulletin, I fear in another 20 years that fall will never have existed. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] provenance
meant for fun not ... silly ... meteorites ... better you love to jump in the time-machine to be there, when Shergotty was distributed Hi Martin, I'm overly senstitive to all the marketing gimmicks out there, so please excuse me if I missed the humor the first time through. Your meteorite born in the bulletin comment which I took seriously I guess then was in reply to my comment about meteorites not having birth certificates, ok, got it now, and have lightened up a bit for an awkward smile. Now as far as the time machine, I've beeen building one in the garage with this old manual I got on eBay, written by this authentic, nameless British scientist in the last 19th century who goes by the pseudonym Time Traveler; it's among the rest of my unfinished projects I trip over trying to take the car out to the market, but I finally realized that if I do get it built, if nothing else than to clear a walkway to the door, it would be a much more productive use just to go back and give myself slaps in the face when I was about to do a few stupid things - you know, like some old American TV show where two guys drive a semi and meet people along the road and act as their angels or another one of those where I just remember the introduction was inspirational music and a simulate floating in and above the clouds and some guy who was an angel who still hadn't finished his internship to be let in. Better yet, I'd build the time machine in reverse, so instead of putting old me back in a younger world, it would just fry my own DNA back to the way it was and have the whole rest of the world travel back to me, just the way it is today ;-) What's a few meteorites, you can get the most part of them, from reputable dealers and honest collectors today if you have a high frustration threshold, that would be such a waste for a time machine, you know, parts are more expensive than meteorites in the long run. Besides, how in the Dickens would I explain the provenance of a Shergotty I picked up while time traveling? Would I claim the Ghost of Christmas Past was paid me a visit and dropped it off, or would I just resubmit it to science for inclusion in the dense strewn fields of time the editors and committees of the Bulletin will have to work out before they are even sure they know what to do with the complex world we already have ;-) Kindest wishes Doug -Original Message- From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de To: meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wed, Feb 15, 2012 10:17 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] provenance Hi Doug, it was meant for fun, not for the silly discrimination which meteorites would be better than others. Though for an extreme purist of provenance and pedigree, those new finds could be indeed ideal. Cause he is then the founder of the pedigree, able to control the growth of the meteorite's family tree, that what he is missing so often with his historic specimens and their gaps from the day they once were picked up to the day he put it in his showcase. Do you remember still the times of the Dar al Ganis? There for the collector it was something new and something extremely thrilling, that you could become the owner of a complete find or a main mass and no matter whether it was an old OC. And that for the same reasons I tried to mention. Because in the post-Nininger-, post-Huss-, pre-desert-era with its only 2500 meteorites + Antarctics, that was really a difficult task. And if you remember those desert finds, they had a special prestige too, Lucky 13, Calcalong, DaG 400, NWA 032... That opened a new aspect and new possibilities in meteorite collecting. Well of course it's the individual habit and taste, which particular meteorites will make the individual collector happy. Collecting of, in a manner of speaking - vintage meteorites - sorry for the flat joke, all they have their 4.5 billion years - has without doubt also very satisfying and interesting aspects. Though I find also the idea fascinating and attractive, that - although one needs certainly some patience - that in 40, 50 years I can say - I lived and participated in the Golden Age of the Big Harvest, where so many of the today so prominent (and desirable) meteorites were recovered. Aura and patina - just some patience and they will come. Doug, wouldn't you love to jump in the time-machine to be there, when Shergotty was distributed, or to gather one of the first Krinov-Sikhotes - or to the year, where the now so popular Murchisons were sent for pennies around the globe? And I'm convinced, that they in their very beginning were as boring for the collectors like today for the historics fan a Tamdakht or a Bassikonou is boring. Huh funny thought, that then in 50, 100 years they could speak about the people we have here on the list, and it could be well possible, as we have an inflation of communication compared to then, that the collectors
Re: [meteorite-list] provenance
Hmm Don Doug, if you have such concerns about provenance, you could easily avoid the sorrows. A meteorite is born, when it is published in the Bulletin. So be the second link in the chain. Buy NWAs from the main mass holder given in the Bulletin and Oman and new U.S.-desert finds from the finders listed there. Provenance at its best. That's the true revolution in pedigree-specimens-collecting. Not possible to that degree for 200 years. Be for following generations the seed leaf in the family tree of a meteorite. Best, Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von MexicoDoug Gesendet: Mittwoch, 15. Februar 2012 02:26 An: dmerc...@rochester.rr.com; countde...@earthlink.net; jasonu...@gmail.com; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough Don M wrote: A provenance can be traced to the former owner and more questions can then be brought up on the specimens validity. Hi Don, Have you noticed lately we are seeing a number of dealers advertising spectacular falls in micro for weekl on the list? Every time I get excited just to see, Oh, another hammer job... not my cup of tea but delicious anyway. I noticed you had some very nice sub-gram material from Rob Elliot in your last advertised auctions on the list. Now, whenever someone buys a 3 gram specimen from poor Rob and takes the hammer to it, do we get included a free conversation with him that he gave a good deal on it to someone who then proceeded to smash it into a hundred pieces and now as the piece's grandpa has inherited the responsibility to take everyone by the hand, intelligent and not so much, to explain how the material was originally acquired from the BM? In my opinion, certainly not! The prime sources for this material can't be responsible for every atomic sized piece that falls off the end of a hammer when some buyer gets the idea he is going to be a meteorite speck dealer. I am not inferring you did the hammer maneuver, BTW, but even if you did, regardless of what I think about micros, it is a perfectly legal way to deal whether I like it or not and I have been tempted to bid on your auctions sometimes when they are larger. There can be a fine line between overdoing provenance as a marketing gimmick and using it, in the context of a dozen other factors to make an informed purchase. From your passion and enthusiasm, I suspect keeping provenance sacred is of prime importance. However, unfortunately the authorities to be still aren't issuing meteorite birth certificates, although some have come frightfully close as of late (frightfully, I say because this new strategy completely excludes me as a primary customer due to the price tag attached, all the while kilos are stockpiled for someone's self-directed retirement account. [Now, that I respect, but it strikes me as greedy - note to Doug: put this statement in the opinion section, you have no right to imply this is bad form until you, Doug, are faced with your own private Esquel]) I applaud your enthusiasm but do ask you to consider alternate situations which don't fit your concept of a meteorite passing from hand to hand in a neat little chain, since this is a very complicated can of sardines that doesn't lend itself to blanket statements. As we all know a chain is as strong as its weakest link, and if someone is dishonest it really becomes an issue for independent scientific verification - because then and only then - the stone must speak. No pile of papers unless photo documented in a Dewey decimal system is beyond a con artist's talent in this day and you must come to grips that sometimes asking to see the pier and stilt foundations of an old houseboat isn't going to happen, even while falling in love with the updated cabinetry in the kitchen! The bottom line is, the buyer has the right and obligation to his own wallet to make his own valuation and not lose his head in a speculative excitement. A set of provenance tags works in some cases, but in most cases it doesn't. That was intended to be more analytical than opinionated. Now let me give my opinion: Micros should *never* be purchased for a higher $/g rate than macro specimens. While I always wince when hearing how I must do something to guarantee the future of my children, if I could figure a way to do this, l would say the same thing. Maybe that's one of the non-scientific reasons I am so in love with the Tatahouine meteorite. When you break it - it's worth less, and it is refreshing to know that except for a few talented slicer folk out there experimenting with sections, most of the large pieces will be conserved for posterity, always convincingly recognizable, and this, because the market determined value the way *I said*. Ok, now I apologize, I understand I am lucky to be
Re: [meteorite-list] provenance
Martin wrote: you could easily avoid the sorrows ... Unfortunately, an NWA number is not the same as a named specimen to collectors that attach sentimental value to localities, there is no one size fits all rationale to valuing meteorites - it's a personal decision and your point is fine for those hot for NWAs but not to use gimmicks to say why one is better than the other ... the pendulum will swing the moment a marketeer can get a foot in the door to hock his jewels! Got any authentic French L'Aigle originals in that NWA series? Coordinates? Country? This is the first I've heard where someone feels an NWA number is better than a named locality when it comes from provenance, after all, the first owner is the earth who surrenders only to deserving beings, and then the rest is usually a bash that follows. A meteorite is born, when it is published in the Bulletin. That's a new one on me! So when we see the fall date, we can disregard that and just ask (Ed)ith, the Bulletin Meteorite mommy ;-) Just to be clear, you are of course right, as is Don, but sweeping statements of 'my meteorite is the best' are best held privately to avoid resurrecting Gavrilo Princip. Kindest wishes Doug __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] provenance
I noticed that the price of recent falls has plummeted. Some were overpriced at several hundred dollars a gram for ordinary chondrites to begin with. Collector confidence in recent falls seems to be at an all time low due to a handful of bad people placing questionable material on the market. From what I was told by several dealers, they were having a very difficult time selling any falls, with the exception of the recent Martian fall, at the Tucson show this year. I now avoid high-priced falls and will no longer stock any. Once my very limited inventory of them is exhausted, I will not replace them. To me, they no longer represent a sound investment due to a few casting doubt on the rest of the good material. I will however continue to offer very rare finds, planetary material and a few very inexpensive witnessed falls. One exception might be the new Martian Fall once the price settles in since it is unique looking and would be hard for somebody to substitute bogus material for. The gemstone, artifact and other collectable markets have already been through this. I was given an estimate by an authenticator that over 40% of the artifacts listed on auctions these days are fakes. They call the people who sell them artifakers. I have had several artifacts killed (fail to paper) with different authentication firms so I know what it feels like to be taken. I go after these people who sold me fakes with a vengeance and usually succeed in getting a refund. There is little more that can be done. I am getting pretty good at spotting fake artifacts since there a lot of things to look for. Meteorites are a completely different game since many are very similar in appearance. Fortunately for artifacts and gemstones, there are a lot of decent authentication services available at reasonable costs (~US $25.00/item). Unfortunately for meteorite collectors, it takes a laboratory with expensive equipment and a highly educated staff to paper them. This places the burden on meteorite dealer's reputations which are being questioned more and more due to few unethical a-holes who do not care about everybody else, only themselves!@ Here is hoping for more positive discussion like finding that first North American lunar meteorite. Kind Regards, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] provenance
buy your meteorites from respected dealers and collectors google any of the people on the wall of shame and you will find many problems. Avoid problem dealers and you will have no problems. Michael Farmer Sent from my iPad On Feb 14, 2012, at 9:03 PM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: I noticed that the price of recent falls has plummeted. Some were overpriced at several hundred dollars a gram for ordinary chondrites to begin with. Collector confidence in recent falls seems to be at an all time low due to a handful of bad people placing questionable material on the market. From what I was told by several dealers, they were having a very difficult time selling any falls, with the exception of the recent Martian fall, at the Tucson show this year. I now avoid high-priced falls and will no longer stock any. Once my very limited inventory of them is exhausted, I will not replace them. To me, they no longer represent a sound investment due to a few casting doubt on the rest of the good material. I will however continue to offer very rare finds, planetary material and a few very inexpensive witnessed falls. One exception might be the new Martian Fall once the price settles in since it is unique looking and would be hard for somebody to substitute bogus material for. The gemstone, artifact and other collectable markets have already been through this. I was given an estimate by an authenticator that over 40% of the artifacts listed on auctions these days are fakes. They call the people who sell them artifakers. I have had several artifacts killed (fail to paper) with different authentication firms so I know what it feels like to be taken. I go after these people who sold me fakes with a vengeance and usually succeed in getting a refund. There is little more that can be done. I am getting pretty good at spotting fake artifacts since there a lot of things to look for. Meteorites are a completely different game since many are very similar in appearance. Fortunately for artifacts and gemstones, there are a lot of decent authentication services available at reasonable costs (~US $25.00/item). Unfortunately for meteorite collectors, it takes a laboratory with expensive equipment and a highly educated staff to paper them. This places the burden on meteorite dealer's reputations which are being questioned more and more due to few unethical a-holes who do not care about everybody else, only themselves!@ Here is hoping for more positive discussion like finding that first North American lunar meteorite. Kind Regards, Adam __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] provenance ( AD in the PS)
Don wrote: I am sorry I even brought up provenance Hi Don. like I said, you had a few auctions I nearly jumped on and I definitely wasn't supposing anything about your high quality work. But when it gets hot in the kitchen the answer isn't to leave it; it's to make it better. My beef with this whole thing isn't with anyone in particular, you were just the messenger and everyone is in a different situation regarding what they know and what they are comfortable to disclose and people will do what that want. Depending on what someone is selling, the criteria of what constitutes Grade A Prime space rocks ''invariably change'. My beef is with the entire direction of the market and a feeling of powerlessness in it. How can I hide my feelings that if, for example today I want to accumulate my money for a large purchase rather than make several ones of lesser consequence, to stretch until it hurts and then some, just to have a choice piece in my collection, that I am forced to compete again others who have a completely different valuation procedure driving their decisions and effortlessly snatch it from my grasp since now in the meteorite world, killing the goose that lays the golden eggs actually works for them, but not me. Agh! The result is it is difficult to find these choice pieces even paying a premium, usually because I don't hear about them in time and they can't be sold and then are cut up, and I become frustrated. Keeping tabs on provenance is a great topic. the fact that it ruffles feathers only points toward it being a topic of extreme importance and I hope you aren't really too sorry about expressing your opinion - my only disagreement had nothing to do with the value of provenance, but rather ignoring other equally convincing factors regarding the dealing with authentic specimens in your personal purchase decisions to value it appropriately, since provenance isn't infallible either in the hands of some of the crooks on eBay we've seen. Maybe some day a magic tricorder will be pointed at meteorites, emit an eerie whirring sound and then have a readout of the meteorite's identification, like the keypad of a Meade Goto telescope, though calibration samples are guaranteed to be a beach ;-) When that day comes it will be a great day and I bet a lot of curators of museum collections will be among the first to line up to check their own provenances, just to be sure. Human error and neglect over the long haul is just as bad as dishonesty, and I am 100% with you on your strong opinion on the former. Good post, and please keep them coming. Kindest wishes Doug PS I'm going to try to sell a Wold Cottage Micro, 88 mg in a package deal with a 1787 King George III silver shilling (the shiny new coin that was used to gain admission to see the exhibit by Topham's curator on Picadilly, as the coins were not issued annually. If anyone wants to buy the coin/meteorite deal please contact me off list to save me a separate post which I haven't gotten around to doing for months. It has respectable provenance and the only reason I have it is because when I bought it it was written as 0.88 grams instead of 0.088 g (88 MG), which is below my collection threshold size). It may be 86 mg if I'm not recalling right but anyone interest I'll happily go find it and let you know! -Original Message- From: Don Merchant dmerc...@rochester.rr.com To: countdeiro countde...@earthlink.net; jasonutas jasonu...@gmail.com; meteorite-list meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com Cc: Don Merchant dmerc...@rochester.rr.com Sent: Wed, Feb 15, 2012 12:49 am Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ebay heads up - Tissint/Scarborough Hi Doug and List. I appreciate your thoughts and opinions Doug. I would like to add several things though to help clarify any misconceptions either based on my statements or yours. First the whole idea of provenance is NOT used as a gimmick to sell. It is only an assurance to the potential buyer that what your buying is as best an honest description that I can provide that the specimen is the real McCoy. When I started collecting many years ago you could check out all the meteorites for sale or up for auction on eBay in less then a half hour! Now at any one time there are over 6,000 meteorites available on eBay and they are not just from a hand full of Sellers/Dealers like the days of yore. Things have changed. The market has exploded due to the availability and awareness of a meteorites value. This in turn has increased the level of fraud to heights never before seen in this hobby. I am not saying a provenance is the answer that will 100% eliminate fraud or the misrepresentation of any meteorite or that the former owner should be held accountable if a particular meteorite is not what it was said to be. What I am saying is that a provenance can be used as a form of deterrent to those who commit fraud
Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of Universities' Material
I guess this means that the Smithsonian, AMNH (New York) and Natural History Museum (London) curators don't recognize rarity and value. Perhaps it's something else. The fact of the matter is that large institutional collections are, in general, rather lacking in NWAs, Libyan, and Omani meteorites. This is reflected in the scientific literature. Although there are some institutional collections with a lot of hot desert meteorites, I doubt your statement that the collections in institutions will soon be dominated by hot desert meteorites. Jeff On 1/17/2012 10:42 PM, Adam Hupe wrote: Most museums and institutions who recognize rarity and value now integrate world-class NWA specimens into their collections. The Royal Ontario Museum comes to mind who has an amazing collection. I think the ratio will favor hot-desert finds soon. Their beauty rarity and value cannot be ignored. A meteorite has no control where it lands. A meteorite is a still a meteorite once a meteoroid touches the Earth. We are fortunate that the Sahara desert preserves them well. Kind Regards, Adam __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of Universities' Material
Hello List I feel we have discussed this particular topic before on the list - and at some length. In common with the Smithsonian, the AMNH and the Natural History Museum London (and many other museums) we at the National Museums Scotland do appreciate rarity and value, but like our colleagues at these museums, we cannot purchase material from certain localities including those mentioned by Jeff. I also agree with Jeff that I cannot see collections at these institutions becoming dominated by this material in the near future. Hope to see you all at Tucson this year. I will be exhibiting at the Convention centre (Minerals from Bisbee, Arizona). Come and have a look if you can. Best Wishes Peter Davidson Curator of Minerals Department of Natural Sciences National Museums Collection Centre 242 West Granton Road Edinburgh EH5 1JA Scotland Tel: 00 44 131 247 4283 E-mail: p.david...@nms.ac.uk -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Grossman Sent: 18 January 2012 13:02 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of Universities' Material I guess this means that the Smithsonian, AMNH (New York) and Natural History Museum (London) curators don't recognize rarity and value. Perhaps it's something else. The fact of the matter is that large institutional collections are, in general, rather lacking in NWAs, Libyan, and Omani meteorites. This is reflected in the scientific literature. Although there are some institutional collections with a lot of hot desert meteorites, I doubt your statement that the collections in institutions will soon be dominated by hot desert meteorites. Jeff On 1/17/2012 10:42 PM, Adam Hupe wrote: Most museums and institutions who recognize rarity and value now integrate world-class NWA specimens into their collections. The Royal Ontario Museum comes to mind who has an amazing collection. I think the ratio will favor hot-desert finds soon. Their beauty rarity and value cannot be ignored. A meteorite has no control where it lands. A meteorite is a still a meteorite once a meteoroid touches the Earth. We are fortunate that the Sahara desert preserves them well. Kind Regards, Adam __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Fascinating Mummies - mummies as you've never seen them before. National Museum of Scotland, 11 Feb-27 May. www.nms.ac.uk/mummies National Museums Scotland, Scottish Charity, No. SC 011130 This communication is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the addressee please inform the sender and delete the email from your system. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of National Museums Scotland. This message is subject to the Data Protection Act 1998 and Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002. No liability is accepted for any harm that may be caused to your systems or data by this message. __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of Universities' Material
Hopefully the scientists and curators of the future will be more sample oriented. A meteorite from the asteroid belt, Mars,the Moon or any other yet to be proven locations doesn't care where it lands. A hundred years from now, future stewards of the stones may ask what the hell were they thinking back then? Best Regards, Adam __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of Universities' Material
They might ask what were we thinking but sure will be glad we saved them! Cheers Steve --- On Wed, 1/18/12, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of Universities' Material To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Wednesday, January 18, 2012, 3:28 PM Hopefully the scientists and curators of the future will be more sample oriented. A meteorite from the asteroid belt, Mars,the Moon or any other yet to be proven locations doesn't care where it lands. A hundred years from now, future stewards of the stones may ask what the hell were they thinking back then? Best Regards, Adam __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of Universities' Material
Adam, List, 100 years from now, we'll be de-orbiting asteroids and moving them into HEO (high Earth Orbit) to chew them up as a resource. 300 years from now, we be in the Zone, dismantling them there, surveying, sampling, coring, lasering... Contaminating. Every REALLY fresh meteorite currently found on Earth now should be curated en vacuo and handled in a reasonably sterile lab manner for the next half-millennium. Why? Because in 500 years, untouched asteroids will become contact-prohibited quarantined nature preserves. Of course, not going to happen... unless a university does it with select specimens. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 9:28 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of Universities' Material Hopefully the scientists and curators of the future will be more sample oriented. A meteorite from the asteroid belt, Mars,the Moon or any other yet to be proven locations doesn't care where it lands. A hundred years from now, future stewards of the stones may ask what the hell were they thinking back then? Best Regards, Adam __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of Universities' Material
Hey Sterling and Adam Why? Because in 500 years, untouched asteroids will become contact-prohibited quarantined nature preserves. If we buy a Golden Age Passport now, can we get a Grandfather clause both to visit and to collect a daily BLM-sized 25 pounds plus one large piece up to 250 pounds per year? BTW, it seems coins found on US managed public lands over 100 years old are now in the illegal to remove column. Golden Age Passport: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Age_Passport Kindest wishes Doug -Original Message- From: Sterling K. Webb sterling_k_w...@sbcglobal.net To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wed, Jan 18, 2012 2:59 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of Universities' Material Adam, List, 100 years from now, we'll be de-orbiting asteroids and moving them into HEO (high Earth Orbit) to chew them up as a resource. 300 years from now, we be in the Zone, dismantling them there, surveying, sampling, coring, lasering... Contaminating. Every REALLY fresh meteorite currently found on Earth now should be curated en vacuo and handled in a reasonably sterile lab manner for the next half-millennium. Why? Because in 500 years, untouched asteroids will become contact-prohibited quarantined nature preserves. Of course, not going to happen... unless a university does it with select specimens. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 9:28 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of Universities' Material Hopefully the scientists and curators of the future will be more sample oriented. A meteorite from the asteroid belt, Mars,the Moon or any other yet to be proven locations doesn't care where it lands. A hundred years from now, future stewards of the stones may ask what the hell were they thinking back then? Best Regards, Adam __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of Universities' Material
I wonder if it's a good idea to buy parent body real estate hehe Sent from my iPod On Jan 18, 2012, at 2:20 PM, MexicoDoug mexicod...@aim.com wrote: Hey Sterling and Adam Why? Because in 500 years, untouched asteroids will become contact-prohibited quarantined nature preserves. If we buy a Golden Age Passport now, can we get a Grandfather clause both to visit and to collect a daily BLM-sized 25 pounds plus one large piece up to 250 pounds per year? BTW, it seems coins found on US managed public lands over 100 years old are now in the illegal to remove column. Golden Age Passport: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Age_Passport Kindest wishes Doug -Original Message- From: Sterling K. Webb sterling_k_w...@sbcglobal.net To: Meteorite List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wed, Jan 18, 2012 2:59 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of Universities' Material Adam, List, 100 years from now, we'll be de-orbiting asteroids and moving them into HEO (high Earth Orbit) to chew them up as a resource. 300 years from now, we be in the Zone, dismantling them there, surveying, sampling, coring, lasering... Contaminating. Every REALLY fresh meteorite currently found on Earth now should be curated en vacuo and handled in a reasonably sterile lab manner for the next half-millennium. Why? Because in 500 years, untouched asteroids will become contact-prohibited quarantined nature preserves. Of course, not going to happen... unless a university does it with select specimens. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com To: Adam meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 9:28 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of Universities' Material Hopefully the scientists and curators of the future will be more sample oriented. A meteorite from the asteroid belt, Mars,the Moon or any other yet to be proven locations doesn't care where it lands. A hundred years from now, future stewards of the stones may ask what the hell were they thinking back then? Best Regards, Adam __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of Universities' Material
Hi Peter, Glad you are managing to get the Tucson...sad I can't make it too this year and share the experiencethe greatest show there is...I'm sure you will have a great time there...I'm very envious. Graham On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Peter Davidson p.david...@nms.ac.uk wrote: Hello List I feel we have discussed this particular topic before on the list - and at some length. In common with the Smithsonian, the AMNH and the Natural History Museum London (and many other museums) we at the National Museums Scotland do appreciate rarity and value, but like our colleagues at these museums, we cannot purchase material from certain localities including those mentioned by Jeff. I also agree with Jeff that I cannot see collections at these institutions becoming dominated by this material in the near future. Hope to see you all at Tucson this year. I will be exhibiting at the Convention centre (Minerals from Bisbee, Arizona). Come and have a look if you can. Best Wishes Peter Davidson Curator of Minerals Department of Natural Sciences National Museums Collection Centre 242 West Granton Road Edinburgh EH5 1JA Scotland Tel: 00 44 131 247 4283 E-mail: p.david...@nms.ac.uk -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Grossman Sent: 18 January 2012 13:02 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of Universities' Material I guess this means that the Smithsonian, AMNH (New York) and Natural History Museum (London) curators don't recognize rarity and value. Perhaps it's something else. The fact of the matter is that large institutional collections are, in general, rather lacking in NWAs, Libyan, and Omani meteorites. This is reflected in the scientific literature. Although there are some institutional collections with a lot of hot desert meteorites, I doubt your statement that the collections in institutions will soon be dominated by hot desert meteorites. Jeff On 1/17/2012 10:42 PM, Adam Hupe wrote: Most museums and institutions who recognize rarity and value now integrate world-class NWA specimens into their collections. The Royal Ontario Museum comes to mind who has an amazing collection. I think the ratio will favor hot-desert finds soon. Their beauty rarity and value cannot be ignored. A meteorite has no control where it lands. A meteorite is a still a meteorite once a meteoroid touches the Earth. We are fortunate that the Sahara desert preserves them well. Kind Regards, Adam __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Fascinating Mummies - mummies as you've never seen them before. National Museum of Scotland, 11 Feb-27 May. www.nms.ac.uk/mummies National Museums Scotland, Scottish Charity, No. SC 011130 This communication is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the addressee please inform the sender and delete the email from your system. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of National Museums Scotland. This message is subject to the Data Protection Act 1998 and Freedom of Information (Scotland) Act 2002. No liability is accepted for any harm that may be caused to your systems or data by this message. __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Provenance of Universities' Material
Hello List again, I was pondering the posts from University Experience and the very exciting posts on the new lunar material along with an announcement from ASU's School of Space Exploration's new acquisition of the 349g main mass from the Tissint fall today. This brings up an interesting question to my mind; What percentage of acquired material Universities and museums around the world posses have been recovered by private hunters. (not by government or university or museum field groups or Antarctican hunts.) Surely the percentage must be within 98-99% [Erik] Sent from my iPod __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of Universities' Material
Erik, This would be a nearly impossible exercise to do. What I can say is this: There are 29050 classified Antarctic meteorites in the world's colletions, and 12664 classified non-Antarctic meteorites. If we assume that all of the Antarctics are government-collected and most of the non-Antarctics are privately collected, then by number of named meteorites, ~30% were privately collected. If you do it by mass, it is all dominated by the large irons, and then you have to worry about who collected each one. If you do it by numbers of individual specimens, I have no idea... this tends to bias the answer toward observed large showers like Holbrook. Tens of thousands of desert meteorites, especially NWAs, are unclassified, and will not be classified any time soon. But these tend not to be acquired material [in] universities and museums. So we probably don't have to count all of them (even if we could). But there are nearly 9000 unclassified Antarctic meteorites in institutional collections which might be counted. Jeff On 1/17/2012 3:59 PM, Erik Fisler wrote: Hello List again, I was pondering the posts from University Experience and the very exciting posts on the new lunar material along with an announcement from ASU's School of Space Exploration's new acquisition of the 349g main mass from the Tissint fall today. This brings up an interesting question to my mind; What percentage of acquired material Universities and museums around the world posses have been recovered by private hunters. (not by government or university or museum field groups or Antarctican hunts.) Surely the percentage must be within 98-99% [Erik] Sent from my iPod __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of Universities' Material
29,050 Antarctic meteorites divided by 5 pairings each since every fragment is counted equals 5,810. If every fragment were counted from Northwest Africa, the total meteorites found would easily exceed 1,000,000. NWA is the number one producer of meteorites by weight, number and rare finds, all accomplished in less than two decades. - Original Message - From: Jeff Grossman jngross...@gmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 3:56 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of Universities' Material Erik, This would be a nearly impossible exercise to do. What I can say is this: There are 29050 classified Antarctic meteorites in the world's colletions, and 12664 classified non-Antarctic meteorites. If we assume that all of the Antarctics are government-collected and most of the non-Antarctics are privately collected, then by number of named meteorites, ~30% were privately collected. If you do it by mass, it is all dominated by the large irons, and then you have to worry about who collected each one. If you do it by numbers of individual specimens, I have no idea... this tends to bias the answer toward observed large showers like Holbrook. Tens of thousands of desert meteorites, especially NWAs, are unclassified, and will not be classified any time soon. But these tend not to be acquired material [in] universities and museums. So we probably don't have to count all of them (even if we could). But there are nearly 9000 unclassified Antarctic meteorites in institutional collections which might be counted. Jeff On 1/17/2012 3:59 PM, Erik Fisler wrote: Hello List again, I was pondering the posts from University Experience and the very exciting posts on the new lunar material along with an announcement from ASU's School of Space Exploration's new acquisition of the 349g main mass from the Tissint fall today. This brings up an interesting question to my mind; What percentage of acquired material Universities and museums around the world posses have been recovered by private hunters. (not by government or university or museum field groups or Antarctican hunts.) Surely the percentage must be within 98-99% [Erik] Sent from my iPod __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of Universities' Material
The question was in universities and museums. This means accessioned specimens. So the vast amount of NWA debris, some of which I've seen in Marvin Killgore's collection, is mostly not relevant. -jeff On 1/17/2012 7:44 PM, Adam Hupe wrote: 29,050 Antarctic meteorites divided by 5 pairings each since every fragment is counted equals 5,810. If every fragment were counted from Northwest Africa, the total meteorites found would easily exceed 1,000,000. NWA is the number one producer of meteorites by weight, number and rare finds, all accomplished in less than two decades. - Original Message - From: Jeff Grossmanjngross...@gmail.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 3:56 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of Universities' Material Erik, This would be a nearly impossible exercise to do. What I can say is this: There are 29050 classified Antarctic meteorites in the world's colletions, and 12664 classified non-Antarctic meteorites. If we assume that all of the Antarctics are government-collected and most of the non-Antarctics are privately collected, then by number of named meteorites, ~30% were privately collected. If you do it by mass, it is all dominated by the large irons, and then you have to worry about who collected each one. If you do it by numbers of individual specimens, I have no idea... this tends to bias the answer toward observed large showers like Holbrook. Tens of thousands of desert meteorites, especially NWAs, are unclassified, and will not be classified any time soon. But these tend not to be acquired material [in] universities and museums. So we probably don't have to count all of them (even if we could). But there are nearly 9000 unclassified Antarctic meteorites in institutional collections which might be counted. Jeff On 1/17/2012 3:59 PM, Erik Fisler wrote: Hello List again, I was pondering the posts from University Experience and the very exciting posts on the new lunar material along with an announcement from ASU's School of Space Exploration's new acquisition of the 349g main mass from the Tissint fall today. This brings up an interesting question to my mind; What percentage of acquired material Universities and museums around the world posses have been recovered by private hunters. (not by government or university or museum field groups or Antarctican hunts.) Surely the percentage must be within 98-99% [Erik] Sent from my iPod __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of Universities' Material
Most museums and institutions who recognize rarity and value now integrate world-class NWA specimens into their collections. The Royal Ontario Museum comes to mind who has an amazing collection. I think the ratio will favor hot-desert finds soon. Their beauty rarity and value cannot be ignored. A meteorite has no control where it lands. A meteorite is a still a meteorite once a meteoroid touches the Earth. We are fortunate that the Sahara desert preserves them well. Kind Regards, Adam __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of Universities' Material
My apologies, I meant classifications/parings not individuals. [Erik] Sent from my iPod On Jan 17, 2012, at 8:42 PM, Adam Hupe raremeteori...@yahoo.com wrote: Most museums and institutions who recognize rarity and value now integrate world-class NWA specimens into their collections. The Royal Ontario Museum comes to mind who has an amazing collection. I think the ratio will favor hot-desert finds soon. Their beauty rarity and value cannot be ignored. A meteorite has no control where it lands. A meteorite is a still a meteorite once a meteoroid touches the Earth. We are fortunate that the Sahara desert preserves them well. Kind Regards, Adam __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ HAPPY HOLIDAYS!! Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Provenance
Looking at some of the big prices for small chips of rock from the auctions makes me wonder-- how much provenance do you bidders look for before you bid on a high-dollar item? Do you look for a chain of possession stretching back to the fall (or when the piece was cut from the fall) or is a collection card from an established collection enough, even if that card is years past the fall/cutting date? I ask because I, personally, would always wonder in the back of my mind if what is supposed to be X actually was X if there were gaps in it's history, at least for meteorites not distinctive enough to be visually recognizable as being the real deal. __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Provenance of NWA 733?
Just wondering if it passed through the hands of anyone here, and if any of it will become available for private collectors? __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of NWA 773?
I meant 773, the new lunar, sorry. On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 16:24:54 -0500, Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just wondering if it passed through the hands of anyone here, and if any of it will become available for private collectors? __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of NWA 773?
Darren, Contact Marvin Killgore: http://www.meteorite-lab.com/ John Kashuba Ontario, California - Original Message - From: Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Provenance of NWA 773? I meant 773, the new lunar, sorry. On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 16:24:54 -0500, Darren Garrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just wondering if it passed through the hands of anyone here, and if any of it will become available for private collectors? __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
