Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-Bolide
Hi Elton all, It's funny but I've always been under the same impression as Elton in regards to the term bolide. I'm not sure why though! Basically I've always believed the following to be an approximate summary: Meteor - basically a generic term for all meteors and associated light phenomena. Fireball - exceptionally large and bright meteor at least as bright as Venus (i.e. -3 to -4 mag). Disintegrating body / sparks etc is still possible with a fireball. Bolide - basically a Fireball PLUS an audible report. I believe the term bolide originally stems from the Latin term bolis which roughly translates to a very large fiery meteor with some sources also referencing the associated audible phenomena. The earliest published reference I found online for bolis was Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) (n.) A meteor or brilliant shooting star, followed by a train of light or sparks; esp. one which explodes. I guess there are many variations and opinions. For the most part... they're probably all pretty much correct. Cheers, Jeff - Original Message - From: MEM mstrema...@yahoo.com To: Mark Bowling mina...@yahoo.com; metlist meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 8:56 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-Bolide We differ some Mark, in that a bolide is not just a fireball showing framentation-- such as we saw in the Peekskill fireball. IMO, historically and by traditional use: a bolide is not just a simple fragmentation but an explosive rupture which occurs at the practical end of incandescent flight--Like an upside down bottle rocket. Perhaps, it is somewhat subjective, and while it may occur out of ear shod, the explosive expansion part has a distinct sound/report different from a sonic boom. The term was adapted possibly from a discussion of military rocketry into early descriptions of meteor fireballs which exploded. Perhaps it is just me but I subscribe to these characteristics of a bolide because it describes a specific combination of conditions. The audible report component is most always associated with the early literature accounts describing a fireball as a bolide. In my bolide theory I believe there is an envelope of stress/shear as the meteoroid is undergoing, being dramatically slowed by the atmosphere. If the envelope is not violated the meator may fragment but it does not do so explosively. Around 5 miles above sea level the meteoroid encounters the boundary of that momentum /shear envelope which reflects maximum aerodynamic pressure at which the meteoroid can retain integrity. This transition is so abrupt for the meteoroid, that it literally shears along molecular bonds releasing a fair amount of heat and possibly rapid oxidation of iron particles, etc. Elton - Original Message From: Mark Bowling mina...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sun, January 16, 2011 12:11:03 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-Bolide Hi all, I have understood from my study that a bolide refers to a meteor that breaks up - not requiring the detection of an audible report because, if observed from a distance, the sound may not be heard. It is not a bright meteor or fireball or large impactor, but simply a meteor that breaks up. Right or wrong, that's the way I've been using the term when I report seeing one on the list. Has anybody else been using it that way? I've been lucky to have seen several dozen over the years (often colorful), but none up close like Elton (yet!). I would agree that the IAU should come up with a definition because the term has come to mean too many things and its use is not going to go away any time soon. In fact with the current explosion of public interest (no pun intended), more people are going to find the term and grab onto it. See you all soon! Mark B. Vail, AZ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-Bolide
Hi Jeff all, Though I'm not entirely clear on the details, I think I heard the term through discussion in the past (just not fresh in my memory the details of those discussion/lectures), but also through reading some old references. A few years ago, I spent some time rechecking my books when I started to hear bolide used more loosely (or better, I heard it used differently than what I understood it to mean). I was beginning to wonder if I had misunderstood and had been using the term incorrectly. I came to the conclusion that I was not mistaken, so continued to use it as before. I have read similar definitions as given by your reference, but I just haven't interpreted (rightly or wrongly) the last part (explodes) as indicating an audible report. But more of a visual indication - sometimes they are quite dramatic, even though you still don't hear them (you can imagine the violence of the occurrence). If you do hear them, that means it's fairly close by (and great to know and experience!). That's just the way I've interpreted very similar definitions - but that's just me. :) Looking forward to a more official definition (and hoping they change their mind about Pluto too ;-P). Clear skies, Mark P.S. Thanks Martin for the interesting history! - Original Message From: Jeff Kuyken i...@meteorites.com.au To: MEM mstrema...@yahoo.com; metlist meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Mon, January 17, 2011 4:26:05 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-Bolide Hi Elton all, It's funny but I've always been under the same impression as Elton in regards to the term bolide. I'm not sure why though! Basically I've always believed the following to be an approximate summary: Meteor - basically a generic term for all meteors and associated light phenomena. Fireball - exceptionally large and bright meteor at least as bright as Venus (i.e. -3 to -4 mag). Disintegrating body / sparks etc is still possible with a fireball. Bolide - basically a Fireball PLUS an audible report. I believe the term bolide originally stems from the Latin term bolis which roughly translates to a very large fiery meteor with some sources also referencing the associated audible phenomena. The earliest published reference I found online for bolis was Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) (n.) A meteor or brilliant shooting star, followed by a train of light or sparks; esp. one which explodes. I guess there are many variations and opinions. For the most part... they're probably all pretty much correct. Cheers, Jeff - Original Message - From: MEM mstrema...@yahoo.com To: Mark Bowling mina...@yahoo.com; metlist meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 8:56 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-Bolide We differ some Mark, in that a bolide is not just a fireball showing framentation-- such as we saw in the Peekskill fireball. IMO, historically and by traditional use: a bolide is not just a simple fragmentation but an explosive rupture which occurs at the practical end of incandescent flight--Like an upside down bottle rocket. Perhaps, it is somewhat subjective, and while it may occur out of ear shod, the explosive expansion part has a distinct sound/report different from a sonic boom. The term was adapted possibly from a discussion of military rocketry into early descriptions of meteor fireballs which exploded. Perhaps it is just me but I subscribe to these characteristics of a bolide because it describes a specific combination of conditions. The audible report component is most always associated with the early literature accounts describing a fireball as a bolide. In my bolide theory I believe there is an envelope of stress/shear as the meteoroid is undergoing, being dramatically slowed by the atmosphere. If the envelope is not violated the meator may fragment but it does not do so explosively. Around 5 miles above sea level the meteoroid encounters the boundary of that momentum /shear envelope which reflects maximum aerodynamic pressure at which the meteoroid can retain integrity. This transition is so abrupt for the meteoroid, that it literally shears along molecular bonds releasing a fair amount of heat and possibly rapid oxidation of iron particles, etc. Elton - Original Message From: Mark Bowling mina...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sun, January 16, 2011 12:11:03 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-Bolide Hi all, I have understood from my study that a bolide refers to a meteor that breaks up - not requiring the detection of an audible report because, if observed from a distance, the sound may not be heard. It is not a bright meteor or fireball or large impactor, but simply a meteor that breaks up. Right or wrong, that's the way I've been using the term when I report seeing one on the list. Has
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-Bolide
One last (?) comment regarding bolide; Yes it comes from the Latin, and is really a French word, used in France in relation to racing cars. And it really should be pronounced just like solid. Anne M. Black _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) _IMPACTIKA@aol.com_ (mailto:impact...@aol.com) President, I.M.C.A. Inc. _http://www.imca.cc/_ (http://www.imca.cc/) In a message dated 1/17/2011 4:26:23 AM Mountain Standard Time, i...@meteorites.com.au writes: Hi Elton all, It's funny but I've always been under the same impression as Elton in regards to the term bolide. I'm not sure why though! Basically I've always believed the following to be an approximate summary: Meteor - basically a generic term for all meteors and associated light phenomena. Fireball - exceptionally large and bright meteor at least as bright as Venus (i.e. -3 to -4 mag). Disintegrating body / sparks etc is still possible with a fireball. Bolide - basically a Fireball PLUS an audible report. I believe the term bolide originally stems from the Latin term bolis which roughly translates to a very large fiery meteor with some sources also referencing the associated audible phenomena. The earliest published reference I found online for bolis was Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) (n.) A meteor or brilliant shooting star, followed by a train of light or sparks; esp. one which explodes. I guess there are many variations and opinions. For the most part... they're probably all pretty much correct. Cheers, Jeff __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-Bolide
Just to reiterate, the term bolide is best avoided when precision is required- not because it is undefined, but because it is overdefined! It means one thing to (most) meteoriticists, something else to geologists, and yet something else to meteorologists. Like planet, it is a word best left without formal definition, and used only with qualification. AFAIK the IAU is not considering a definition for bolide. A couple of years ago they were considering revising the definition of meteor to include the body itself during its atmospheric passage (which most now use meteoroid for). I don't know where things are on that proposal. In any case, I hope they just leave bolide alone, since even with a formal definition applied to meteoritics, we aren't likely to get any less confusion. If you're talking casually, in a known context, use whatever terms seem reasonable. But if you want to make things clear, something like a 30-second fireball with extensive fragmentation and subsequent acoustic events is always going to be a better choice than an impressive bolide. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: MEM mstrema...@yahoo.com To: Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2011 2:47 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-Bolide I largely agree, Chris, and like the overuse of the term oriented, it seems everything has become a bolide-- minor fireballs and major impactors alike. The author on the work around the Chesapeake impactor adopted the term bolide in his works and I believe that was a bastardized usage-- not based in traditional usage. IMO a crater producing impactor is NOT a bolide unless it produces an explosive terminus at altitude. An asteroid which excavates an 8 mile deep crater likely doesn't bolide upon encountering maximum aerodynamic pressure, and no ground observer is likely to survive to tell us if there was one anyway! Tagish Lake was by all accounts a super bolide having both the magnitude and the report. I remember seeing the term bolide used in 19th century descriptions, of course areolite was also a term used back then but I think bolide --suitably defined has a use in literature, still. I think the IAU should probably adopt a definition for bolide which narrows the distinctions to reflect not just magnitude but disruption and audible report. Traditionally bolide was used to describe a fireball that terminated in a bright flash and /or explosive report. Having seen a traditional bolide up close and personal, I can attest that it is not your regular fireball class event. The explosive event is distinct from a sonic boom. In preparation for this reply, I revisited the wiki page and I have a lot of disagreement regarding the adequacy or magnitude alone being the distinction. If we are to abandon the term bolide then we need a convention to describe a fireball which terminates in an expanding/explosive disintegration with audible report. IMO. Elton __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-The Bolide and the Nuclear Bomb
Hi all, can some of you explain to me the similarities of an exploding meteor and a nuclear bomb? There seem to be a lot of references and explosive asteroid events are often measured in Hiroshima bombs to scare the hell out of people. I always asked myself the question why that is? Is there not a different process at work, that of nuclear fission (atom bomb) and fusion (hydrogen bomb)? But when considering Tunguska, the aftermath seems to be very similar. I would like to know more about this: There has been accelerated tree growth due to the radiation, have there been any cases of mutations or illnesses of animals? Is such a radiation as severe as that of a bomb? And what is the difference / similarity of Tektites and Trinitite? Regine --- Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu schrieb am Mo, 17.1.2011: Von: Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-Bolide An: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Datum: Montag, 17. Januar, 2011 21:54 Uhr Just to reiterate, the term bolide is best avoided when precision is required- not because it is undefined, but because it is overdefined! It means one thing to (most) meteoriticists, something else to geologists, and yet something else to meteorologists. Like planet, it is a word best left without formal definition, and used only with qualification. AFAIK the IAU is not considering a definition for bolide. A couple of years ago they were considering revising the definition of meteor to include the body itself during its atmospheric passage (which most now use meteoroid for). I don't know where things are on that proposal. In any case, I hope they just leave bolide alone, since even with a formal definition applied to meteoritics, we aren't likely to get any less confusion. If you're talking casually, in a known context, use whatever terms seem reasonable. But if you want to make things clear, something like a 30-second fireball with extensive fragmentation and subsequent acoustic events is always going to be a better choice than an impressive bolide. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: MEM mstrema...@yahoo.com To: Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2011 2:47 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-Bolide I largely agree, Chris, and like the overuse of the term oriented, it seems everything has become a bolide-- minor fireballs and major impactors alike. The author on the work around the Chesapeake impactor adopted the term bolide in his works and I believe that was a bastardized usage-- not based in traditional usage. IMO a crater producing impactor is NOT a bolide unless it produces an explosive terminus at altitude. An asteroid which excavates an 8 mile deep crater likely doesn't bolide upon encountering maximum aerodynamic pressure, and no ground observer is likely to survive to tell us if there was one anyway! Tagish Lake was by all accounts a super bolide having both the magnitude and the report. I remember seeing the term bolide used in 19th century descriptions, of course areolite was also a term used back then but I think bolide --suitably defined has a use in literature, still. I think the IAU should probably adopt a definition for bolide which narrows the distinctions to reflect not just magnitude but disruption and audible report. Traditionally bolide was used to describe a fireball that terminated in a bright flash and /or explosive report. Having seen a traditional bolide up close and personal, I can attest that it is not your regular fireball class event. The explosive event is distinct from a sonic boom. In preparation for this reply, I revisited the wiki page and I have a lot of disagreement regarding the adequacy or magnitude alone being the distinction. If we are to abandon the term bolide then we need a convention to describe a fireball which terminates in an expanding/explosive disintegration with audible report. IMO. Elton __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-The Bolide and the Nuclear Bomb
The comparison is nothing to do with (ionizing) radiation. It is simply a matter of using references that people are comfortable with. Meteors in the range of very bright fireballs to impact events happen to produce energy levels that are equivalent to nuclear bombs. Unlike nuclear bombs, however, the energy released by meteors and impacts is substantially non-ionizing. And the processes involved in the release of energy are completely different. As an aside, some meteors are detected by instruments that are designed to record nuclear blasts. Those instruments are normally calibrated with energy units in tons of TNT. Depending on whether energy data is presented in joules or in tons of TNT, you can sometimes guess what the monitoring agency was really looking for g. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Regine Petersen fips_br...@yahoo.de To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-The Bolide and the Nuclear Bomb Hi all, can some of you explain to me the similarities of an exploding meteor and a nuclear bomb? There seem to be a lot of references and explosive asteroid events are often measured in Hiroshima bombs to scare the hell out of people. I always asked myself the question why that is? Is there not a different process at work, that of nuclear fission (atom bomb) and fusion (hydrogen bomb)? But when considering Tunguska, the aftermath seems to be very similar. I would like to know more about this: There has been accelerated tree growth due to the radiation, have there been any cases of mutations or illnesses of animals? Is such a radiation as severe as that of a bomb? And what is the difference / similarity of Tektites and Trinitite? Regine __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-The Bolide and the Nuclear Bomb
Hi Regine, because the TNT-equivalent is the most common form to give the measure of energy released in an explosion. Big impacts of meteorites release a lot of energy due to the mighty kinetic energy the impactors have, while hitting. In fact there are no such natural events else, where punctually so much energy is released. Energy is energy, no matter how it's produced, whether by nuclear fission or by an impact of a meteorite. You could express the energy released in such an explosion also in Joule, but quite nobody would have an imagination, what let's say 120 Terajoule should be. Though if you say, that explosion was so hefty like 2 Hiroshima bombs, it's easier to imagine. Radiation plays no role in or after meteorite impacts. have there been any cases of mutations or illnesses of animals? Yes, once a dog in Egypt, a cow in Venezuela and a llama in Peru felt somewhat ill after a meteorite impact. Well and else... I wouldn't call meteorite collectors/dealers/researchers animals ;-) Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Regine Petersen Gesendet: Montag, 17. Januar 2011 22:39 An: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Chris Peterson Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-The Bolide and the Nuclear Bomb Hi all, can some of you explain to me the similarities of an exploding meteor and a nuclear bomb? There seem to be a lot of references and explosive asteroid events are often measured in Hiroshima bombs to scare the hell out of people. I always asked myself the question why that is? Is there not a different process at work, that of nuclear fission (atom bomb) and fusion (hydrogen bomb)? But when considering Tunguska, the aftermath seems to be very similar. I would like to know more about this: There has been accelerated tree growth due to the radiation, have there been any cases of mutations or illnesses of animals? Is such a radiation as severe as that of a bomb? And what is the difference / similarity of Tektites and Trinitite? Regine __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-The Bolide and the Nuclear Bomb
Thank you Chris and Martin, which brings me to the question, what exactly is energy? I am trying to put aside what I have learned about it and look at it with a second naivety. I find it hard to grasp (similar to the idea of gravity). But perhaps this is not so interesting for others. I've been trying to re-think basic concepts lately, everything I think I know, and when thinking about it I realize that I don't. But back to the topic: Reading your explanations the accelerated tree growth in the Tunguska area would therefore simply be a stress symptom? R. --- Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de schrieb am Mo, 17.1.2011: Von: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-The Bolide and the Nuclear Bomb An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Datum: Montag, 17. Januar, 2011 23:23 Uhr Hi Regine, because the TNT-equivalent is the most common form to give the measure of energy released in an explosion. Big impacts of meteorites release a lot of energy due to the mighty kinetic energy the impactors have, while hitting. In fact there are no such natural events else, where punctually so much energy is released. Energy is energy, no matter how it's produced, whether by nuclear fission or by an impact of a meteorite. You could express the energy released in such an explosion also in Joule, but quite nobody would have an imagination, what let's say 120 Terajoule should be. Though if you say, that explosion was so hefty like 2 Hiroshima bombs, it's easier to imagine. Radiation plays no role in or after meteorite impacts. have there been any cases of mutations or illnesses of animals? Yes, once a dog in Egypt, a cow in Venezuela and a llama in Peru felt somewhat ill after a meteorite impact. Well and else... I wouldn't call meteorite collectors/dealers/researchers animals ;-) Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Regine Petersen Gesendet: Montag, 17. Januar 2011 22:39 An: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Chris Peterson Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-The Bolide and the Nuclear Bomb Hi all, can some of you explain to me the similarities of an exploding meteor and a nuclear bomb? There seem to be a lot of references and explosive asteroid events are often measured in Hiroshima bombs to scare the hell out of people. I always asked myself the question why that is? Is there not a different process at work, that of nuclear fission (atom bomb) and fusion (hydrogen bomb)? But when considering Tunguska, the aftermath seems to be very similar. I would like to know more about this: There has been accelerated tree growth due to the radiation, have there been any cases of mutations or illnesses of animals? Is such a radiation as severe as that of a bomb? And what is the difference / similarity of Tektites and Trinitite? Regine __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-The Bolide and the Nuclear Bomb
Martin, Lest us not forget the Mailbox that promptly applied for disability and the Car whose insurance increased by 10 Terajoule's. John - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 5:23 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-The Bolide and the Nuclear Bomb Hi Regine, because the TNT-equivalent is the most common form to give the measure of energy released in an explosion. Big impacts of meteorites release a lot of energy due to the mighty kinetic energy the impactors have, while hitting. In fact there are no such natural events else, where punctually so much energy is released. Energy is energy, no matter how it's produced, whether by nuclear fission or by an impact of a meteorite. You could express the energy released in such an explosion also in Joule, but quite nobody would have an imagination, what let's say 120 Terajoule should be. Though if you say, that explosion was so hefty like 2 Hiroshima bombs, it's easier to imagine. Radiation plays no role in or after meteorite impacts. have there been any cases of mutations or illnesses of animals? Yes, once a dog in Egypt, a cow in Venezuela and a llama in Peru felt somewhat ill after a meteorite impact. Well and else... I wouldn't call meteorite collectors/dealers/researchers animals ;-) Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Regine Petersen Gesendet: Montag, 17. Januar 2011 22:39 An: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Chris Peterson Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-The Bolide and the Nuclear Bomb Hi all, can some of you explain to me the similarities of an exploding meteor and a nuclear bomb? There seem to be a lot of references and explosive asteroid events are often measured in Hiroshima bombs to scare the hell out of people. I always asked myself the question why that is? Is there not a different process at work, that of nuclear fission (atom bomb) and fusion (hydrogen bomb)? But when considering Tunguska, the aftermath seems to be very similar. I would like to know more about this: There has been accelerated tree growth due to the radiation, have there been any cases of mutations or illnesses of animals? Is such a radiation as severe as that of a bomb? And what is the difference / similarity of Tektites and Trinitite? Regine __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-The Bolide and the Nuclear Bomb
SIMPLY put; (excerpt and disected from ENCYCLOPEDIA OF PHYSICS) ENERGY is the ability to produce work. It is a certain abstract scalar quantity that an object is said to possess. It is NOT something that is directly observable. Some say it is a process of gravity. WORK is the transference of energy from one object to another by a force from one on the other when that second object is displaced by the force. FORCE is the release of energy to another object. As clear as the Mississippi River now huh? -Barrett -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Regine Petersen Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 4:08 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Martin Altmann Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-The Bolide and the Nuclear Bomb Thank you Chris and Martin, which brings me to the question, what exactly is energy? I am trying to put aside what I have learned about it and look at it with a second naivety. I find it hard to grasp (similar to the idea of gravity). But perhaps this is not so interesting for others. I've been trying to re-think basic concepts lately, everything I think I know, and when thinking about it I realize that I don't. But back to the topic: Reading your explanations the accelerated tree growth in the Tunguska area would therefore simply be a stress symptom? R. --- Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de schrieb am Mo, 17.1.2011: Von: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-The Bolide and the Nuclear Bomb An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Datum: Montag, 17. Januar, 2011 23:23 Uhr Hi Regine, because the TNT-equivalent is the most common form to give the measure of energy released in an explosion. Big impacts of meteorites release a lot of energy due to the mighty kinetic energy the impactors have, while hitting. In fact there are no such natural events else, where punctually so much energy is released. Energy is energy, no matter how it's produced, whether by nuclear fission or by an impact of a meteorite. You could express the energy released in such an explosion also in Joule, but quite nobody would have an imagination, what let's say 120 Terajoule should be. Though if you say, that explosion was so hefty like 2 Hiroshima bombs, it's easier to imagine. Radiation plays no role in or after meteorite impacts. have there been any cases of mutations or illnesses of animals? Yes, once a dog in Egypt, a cow in Venezuela and a llama in Peru felt somewhat ill after a meteorite impact. Well and else... I wouldn't call meteorite collectors/dealers/researchers animals ;-) Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Regine Petersen Gesendet: Montag, 17. Januar 2011 22:39 An: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Chris Peterson Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-The Bolide and the Nuclear Bomb Hi all, can some of you explain to me the similarities of an exploding meteor and a nuclear bomb? There seem to be a lot of references and explosive asteroid events are often measured in Hiroshima bombs to scare the hell out of people. I always asked myself the question why that is? Is there not a different process at work, that of nuclear fission (atom bomb) and fusion (hydrogen bomb)? But when considering Tunguska, the aftermath seems to be very similar. I would like to know more about this: There has been accelerated tree growth due to the radiation, have there been any cases of mutations or illnesses of animals? Is such a radiation as severe as that of a bomb? And what is the difference / similarity of Tektites and Trinitite? Regine __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-The Bolide and the Nuclear Bomb
Ha, exactly what I mean... *scratch head* --- Barrett barret...@comcast.net schrieb am Di, 18.1.2011: Von: Barrett barret...@comcast.net Betreff: RE: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-The Bolide and the Nuclear Bomb An: 'Regine Petersen' fips_br...@yahoo.de, Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Datum: Dienstag, 18. Januar, 2011 02:10 Uhr SIMPLY put; (excerpt and disected from ENCYCLOPEDIA OF PHYSICS) ENERGY is the ability to produce work. It is a certain abstract scalar quantity that an object is said to possess. It is NOT something that is directly observable. Some say it is a process of gravity. WORK is the transference of energy from one object to another by a force from one on the other when that second object is displaced by the force. FORCE is the release of energy to another object. As clear as the Mississippi River now huh? -Barrett -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Regine Petersen Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 4:08 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Martin Altmann Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-The Bolide and the Nuclear Bomb Thank you Chris and Martin, which brings me to the question, what exactly is energy? I am trying to put aside what I have learned about it and look at it with a second naivety. I find it hard to grasp (similar to the idea of gravity). But perhaps this is not so interesting for others. I've been trying to re-think basic concepts lately, everything I think I know, and when thinking about it I realize that I don't. But back to the topic: Reading your explanations the accelerated tree growth in the Tunguska area would therefore simply be a stress symptom? R. --- Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de schrieb am Mo, 17.1.2011: Von: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-The Bolide and the Nuclear Bomb An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Datum: Montag, 17. Januar, 2011 23:23 Uhr Hi Regine, because the TNT-equivalent is the most common form to give the measure of energy released in an explosion. Big impacts of meteorites release a lot of energy due to the mighty kinetic energy the impactors have, while hitting. In fact there are no such natural events else, where punctually so much energy is released. Energy is energy, no matter how it's produced, whether by nuclear fission or by an impact of a meteorite. You could express the energy released in such an explosion also in Joule, but quite nobody would have an imagination, what let's say 120 Terajoule should be. Though if you say, that explosion was so hefty like 2 Hiroshima bombs, it's easier to imagine. Radiation plays no role in or after meteorite impacts. have there been any cases of mutations or illnesses of animals? Yes, once a dog in Egypt, a cow in Venezuela and a llama in Peru felt somewhat ill after a meteorite impact. Well and else... I wouldn't call meteorite collectors/dealers/researchers animals ;-) Best! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Regine Petersen Gesendet: Montag, 17. Januar 2011 22:39 An: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Chris Peterson Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-The Bolide and the Nuclear Bomb Hi all, can some of you explain to me the similarities of an exploding meteor and a nuclear bomb? There seem to be a lot of references and explosive asteroid events are often measured in Hiroshima bombs to scare the hell out of people. I always asked myself the question why that is? Is there not a different process at work, that of nuclear fission (atom bomb) and fusion (hydrogen bomb)? But when considering Tunguska, the aftermath seems to be very similar. I would like to know more about this: There has been accelerated tree growth due to the radiation, have there been any cases of mutations or illnesses of animals? Is such a radiation as severe as that of a bomb? And what is the difference / similarity of Tektites and Trinitite? Regine __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-Bolide
I largely agree, Chris, and like the overuse of the term oriented, it seems everything has become a bolide-- minor fireballs and major impactors alike. The author on the work around the Chesapeake impactor adopted the term bolide in his works and I believe that was a bastardized usage-- not based in traditional usage. IMO a crater producing impactor is NOT a bolide unless it produces an explosive terminus at altitude. An asteroid which excavates an 8 mile deep crater likely doesn't bolide upon encountering maximum aerodynamic pressure, and no ground observer is likely to survive to tell us if there was one anyway! Tagish Lake was by all accounts a super bolide having both the magnitude and the report. I remember seeing the term bolide used in 19th century descriptions, of course areolite was also a term used back then but I think bolide --suitably defined has a use in literature, still. I think the IAU should probably adopt a definition for bolide which narrows the distinctions to reflect not just magnitude but disruption and audible report. Traditionally bolide was used to describe a fireball that terminated in a bright flash and /or explosive report. Having seen a traditional bolide up close and personal, I can attest that it is not your regular fireball class event. The explosive event is distinct from a sonic boom. In preparation for this reply, I revisited the wiki page and I have a lot of disagreement regarding the adequacy or magnitude alone being the distinction. If we are to abandon the term bolide then we need a convention to describe a fireball which terminates in an expanding/explosive disintegration with audible report. IMO. Elton - Original Message From: Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sat, January 15, 2011 7:53:49 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Bolide is a term that it's good to avoid. It doesn't mean anything... or rather, it means too many different things. Fireball unambiguously means a meteor of a specific apparent brightness. Bolide is simply confusing. Chris __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 (term: bolides)
Hi Sterling and Chris, Bolis, bolide ist he classical term for the FIERY ones among the four classes of meteors as atmospheric phenomena (would have to look, I guess, should be from Aristotle or maybe one could check Plinius for the term). Note, that Chladni's pioneering work was therefore also titled: Ueber FEUERmeteore About fiery meteors (and the masses, which fall with them). Thus, it's a scientific term and much longer in use, as one supposes. Denominating a special class among meteors, the fiery ones. The other three types of meteors according the four elements were the aqueous ones, those of the air (and earthy meteors. Today we're using meteor only for the fiery class and there in particular for the atmospheric light phenomen of falling rocks from space. Some older references, only as examples: From John Henry Alsted's famous encyclopedia (1630), there is given the definition of meteors and the synonyms. (Scientiarum omnium Encylopaediae, Vol I, p.31) 37. Meteora vera quotuplicia? Quatuor sunt classes ipsorum. In prima classe sunt meteora ignea, numero XIV videlicet, Fax, Ignis perpendicularis, BOLIS, Capra Saltans,... (37. How many true meteors are there? There are four classes of them. In the first class there are the fiery meteors, 16 as follows: Flame (or torch), hanging fire, bolide, jumping goat, ) Or another one from Jan Makowsky Opuscula philosophica omnia of 1660 (for my friend Andrzej, because Maccovius was born in Powiat Pilski): Volume II., chapter 5: De Speciebus Meteoris - about the types of meteors. III. In aere summo exoriuntur ista Meteora: flamma seu fax, trabs seu ignis perpendicularis, bolis. III. In the highest air originate these meteors: flame or torch, bar or hanging fire, bolide. (...) Bolis est sumus mediocriter longus; crastoribus partibus, aequaliter cum subtilioribus commixtis constans; qui accensus in summo aere, sursumque volans, teli ardensis, discurrentisque formam refert. Therefore I think, bolide has, historically seen at least, the prior rights, as it was a scientific term, much more precise than the more unspecific meteor, which was a hyperonym for all kinds of atmospheric phenomena. Btw. Bolis has a second, completely different technical meaning. It means also the lead, the plumb line, especially in nautics. Hence - as you already told, ballein - something which you throw or drop. Speaking of ballein, Remember that the Boss of Gods, Zeus Aegis, hurls flashes and throws thunderbolts towards us! (Bolt...Bolid uuuh kitchen-etymology... who knows) Best! Geeky Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Sterling K. Webb Gesendet: Sonntag, 16. Januar 2011 04:04 An: Chris Peterson; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Bolidc: The term was first used, in the French language, in 1834. The French is derived from classical Latin bolis (generally bolidis), fiery meteor, originally from the classical Greek, βολις, missile, arrow, or flash of lightning, akin to ballein, to throw. Definition: a brilliant meteor with a magnitude exceeding -4, especially one that explodes; a very bright fireball. Most dictionary definitions mention explosion or fragmentation. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 6:51 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Most researchers I know consider the body to be a meteoroid while it is in its meteor phase. The term meteoroid is used to specifically identify the body, and distinguish it from the meteor effect. It is also common, and IMO correct, to talk of a meteorite before it hits the ground. Once the meteor phase has ended, surviving material will become meteorites, and may quite acceptably be called such (as in discussing the dark flight phase of a meteorite). Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Walter Branch waltbra...@bellsouth.net To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 4:13 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Hello Everyone, The term meteor refers to the light phenomenon as an object from space enters the Earth's atmosphere. What is the proper term for the object itself? A meteoroid is an object in space. Is it still called a meteoroid when it enters the Earth's atmosphere? -Walter __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-Bolide
Hi all, I have understood from my study that a bolide refers to a meteor that breaks up - not requiring the detection of an audible report because, if observed from a distance, the sound may not be heard. It is not a bright meteor or fireball or large impactor, but simply a meteor that breaks up. Right or wrong, that's the way I've been using the term when I report seeing one on the list. Has anybody else been using it that way? I've been lucky to have seen several dozen over the years (often colorful), but none up close like Elton (yet!). I would agree that the IAU should come up with a definition because the term has come to mean too many things and its use is not going to go away any time soon. In fact with the current explosion of public interest (no pun intended), more people are going to find the term and grab onto it. See you all soon! Mark B. Vail, AZ - Original Message From: MEM mstrema...@yahoo.com To: Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sun, January 16, 2011 2:47:29 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-Bolide I largely agree, Chris, and like the overuse of the term oriented, it seems everything has become a bolide-- minor fireballs and major impactors alike. The author on the work around the Chesapeake impactor adopted the term bolide in his works and I believe that was a bastardized usage-- not based in traditional usage. IMO a crater producing impactor is NOT a bolide unless it produces an explosive terminus at altitude. An asteroid which excavates an 8 mile deep crater likely doesn't bolide upon encountering maximum aerodynamic pressure, and no ground observer is likely to survive to tell us if there was one anyway! Tagish Lake was by all accounts a super bolide having both the magnitude and the report. I remember seeing the term bolide used in 19th century descriptions, of course areolite was also a term used back then but I think bolide --suitably defined has a use in literature, still. I think the IAU should probably adopt a definition for bolide which narrows the distinctions to reflect not just magnitude but disruption and audible report. Traditionally bolide was used to describe a fireball that terminated in a bright flash and /or explosive report. Having seen a traditional bolide up close and personal, I can attest that it is not your regular fireball class event. The explosive event is distinct from a sonic boom. In preparation for this reply, I revisited the wiki page and I have a lot of disagreement regarding the adequacy or magnitude alone being the distinction. If we are to abandon the term bolide then we need a convention to describe a fireball which terminates in an expanding/explosive disintegration with audible report. IMO. Elton - Original Message From: Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sat, January 15, 2011 7:53:49 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Bolide is a term that it's good to avoid. It doesn't mean anything... or rather, it means too many different things. Fireball unambiguously means a meteor of a specific apparent brightness. Bolide is simply confusing. Chris __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-Bolide
We differ some Mark, in that a bolide is not just a fireball showing framentation-- such as we saw in the Peekskill fireball. IMO, historically and by traditional use: a bolide is not just a simple fragmentation but an explosive rupture which occurs at the practical end of incandescent flight--Like an upside down bottle rocket. Perhaps, it is somewhat subjective, and while it may occur out of ear shod, the explosive expansion part has a distinct sound/report different from a sonic boom. The term was adapted possibly from a discussion of military rocketry into early descriptions of meteor fireballs which exploded. Perhaps it is just me but I subscribe to these characteristics of a bolide because it describes a specific combination of conditions. The audible report component is most always associated with the early literature accounts describing a fireball as a bolide. In my bolide theory I believe there is an envelope of stress/shear as the meteoroid is undergoing, being dramatically slowed by the atmosphere. If the envelope is not violated the meator may fragment but it does not do so explosively. Around 5 miles above sea level the meteoroid encounters the boundary of that momentum /shear envelope which reflects maximum aerodynamic pressure at which the meteoroid can retain integrity. This transition is so abrupt for the meteoroid, that it literally shears along molecular bonds releasing a fair amount of heat and possibly rapid oxidation of iron particles, etc. Elton - Original Message From: Mark Bowling mina...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sun, January 16, 2011 12:11:03 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-Bolide Hi all, I have understood from my study that a bolide refers to a meteor that breaks up - not requiring the detection of an audible report because, if observed from a distance, the sound may not be heard. It is not a bright meteor or fireball or large impactor, but simply a meteor that breaks up. Right or wrong, that's the way I've been using the term when I report seeing one on the list. Has anybody else been using it that way? I've been lucky to have seen several dozen over the years (often colorful), but none up close like Elton (yet!). I would agree that the IAU should come up with a definition because the term has come to mean too many things and its use is not going to go away any time soon. In fact with the current explosion of public interest (no pun intended), more people are going to find the term and grab onto it. See you all soon! Mark B. Vail, AZ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-Bolide
Hi Mark and all, My definition of bolide which I used years before meteorite collecting, was a bright meteor that breaks up during the fall. I agree an offical definition would be good, although I disagree with the downsizing of Pluto and could only hope for an accurate one for bolide. Best to all. --AL Mitterling - Original Message - From: Mark Bowling mina...@yahoo.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2011 12:11 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-Bolide Hi all, I have understood from my study that a bolide refers to a meteor that breaks up - not requiring the detection of an audible report because, if observed from a distance, the sound may not be heard. It is not a bright meteor or fireball or large impactor, but simply a meteor that breaks up. Right or wrong, that's the way I've been using the term when I report seeing one on the list. Has anybody else been using it that way? I've been lucky to have seen several dozen over the years (often colorful), but none up close like Elton (yet!). I would agree that the IAU should come up with a definition because the term has come to mean too many things and its use is not going to go away any time soon. In fact with the current explosion of public interest (no pun intended), more people are going to find the term and grab onto it. See you all soon! Mark B. Vail, AZ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
Barrett, So is the Asteroid Belt actually; a Meteriod Belt, an Asteriod Belt, or a Satellite Belt ? ;~} Jonathan - Original Message - From: Barrett barret...@comcast.net To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 5:29 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 The definitive source WIKIPEDIA!! Says; MeteoroidThe current official definition of a meteoroid from the International Astronomical Union is a solid object moving in interplanetary space, of a size considerably smaller than an asteroid and considerably larger than an atom.[1][2] Beech and Steel, writing in Quarterly Journal of the Royal Astronomical Society, proposed a new definition where a meteoroid is between 100 µm and 10 m across.[3] The NEO definition includes larger objects, up to 50 m in diameter, in this category. Very small meteoroids are known as micrometeoroids (see also interplanetary dust). The composition of meteoroids can be determined as they pass through Earth's atmosphere from their trajectories and the light spectra of the resulting meteor. Their effects on radio signals also give information, especially useful for daytime meteors which are otherwise very difficult to observe. From these trajectory measurements, meteoroids have been found to have many different orbits, some clustering in streams (see Meteor showers) often associated with a parent comet, others apparently sporadic. Debris from meteoroid streams may eventually be scattered into other orbits. The light spectra, combined with trajectory and light curve measurements, have yielded various compositions and densities, ranging from fragile snowball-like objects with density about a quarter that of ice,[4] to nickel-iron rich dense rocks. Meteoroids travel around the Sun in a variety of orbits and at various velocities. The fastest ones move at about 26 miles per second (42 kilometers per second) through space in the vicinity of Earth's orbit. The Earth travels at about 18 miles per second (29 kilometers per second). Thus, when meteoroids meet the Earth's atmosphere head-on (which would only occur if the meteors were in a retrograde orbit), the combined speed may reach about 44 miles per second (71 kilometers per second). MeteorMeteor and Meteors redirect here. For other uses, see Meteor (disambiguation). See also Hydrometeor. Comet 17P/Holmes and GeminidA meteor is the visible path of a meteoroid that has entered the Earth's atmosphere. Meteors typically occur in the mesosphere, and most range in altitude from 75 km to 100 km.[5] Millions of meteors occur in the Earth's atmosphere every day. Most meteoroids that cause meteors are about the size of a pebble. They become visible between about 40 and 75 miles (65 and 120 kilometers) above the Earth. They disintegrate at altitudes of 30 to 60 miles (50 to 95 kilometers). Meteors have roughly a fifty percent chance of a daylight (or near daylight) collision with the Earth as the Earth orbits in the direction of roughly west at noon.[clarification needed] Most meteors are, however, observed at night as low light conditions allow fainter meteors to be observed. For bodies with a size scale larger than the atmospheric mean free path (10 cm to several metres)[clarification needed] the visibility is due to the atmospheric ram pressure (not friction) that heats the meteoroid so that it glows and creates a shining trail of gases and melted meteoroid particles. The gases include vaporized meteoroid material and atmospheric gases that heat up when the meteoroid passes through the atmosphere. Most meteors glow for about a second. A relatively small percentage of meteoroids hit the Earth's atmosphere and then pass out again: these are termed Earth-grazing fireballs (for example The Great Daylight 1972 Fireball). Meteors may occur in showers, which arise when the Earth passes through a trail of debris left by a comet, or as random or sporadic meteors, not associated with a specific single cause. A number of specific meteors have been observed, largely by members of the public and largely by accident, but with enough detail that orbits of the incoming meteors or meteorites have been calculated. All of them came from orbits from the vicinity of the asteroid belt.[6] FireballA fireball is a brighter-than-usual meteor. The International Astronomical Union defines a fireball as a meteor brighter than any of the planets (magnitude -4 or greater).[7] The International Meteor Organization (an amateur organization that studies meteors) has a more rigid definition. It defines a fireball as a meteor that would have a magnitude of -3 or brighter if seen at zenith. This definition corrects for the greater distance between an observer and a meteor near the horizon. For example, a meteor of magnitude -1 at 5 degrees above the horizon would be classified as a fireball because if the observer had been directly below the meteor
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
Jonathan: The mass of the region between Mars and Jupiter is dominated by the larger objects, so it is a belt of asteroids, an asteroid belt. Larry Barrett, So is the Asteroid Belt actually; a Meteriod Belt, an Asteriod Belt, or a Satellite Belt ? ;~} Jonathan - Original Message - From: Barrett barret...@comcast.net To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 5:29 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 The definitive source WIKIPEDIA!! Says; MeteoroidThe current official definition of a meteoroid from the International Astronomical Union is a solid object moving in interplanetary space, of a size considerably smaller than an asteroid and considerably larger than an atom.[1][2] Beech and Steel, writing in Quarterly Journal of the Royal Astronomical Society, proposed a new definition where a meteoroid is between 100 µm and 10 m across.[3] The NEO definition includes larger objects, up to 50 m in diameter, in this category. Very small meteoroids are known as micrometeoroids (see also interplanetary dust). The composition of meteoroids can be determined as they pass through Earth's atmosphere from their trajectories and the light spectra of the resulting meteor. Their effects on radio signals also give information, especially useful for daytime meteors which are otherwise very difficult to observe. From these trajectory measurements, meteoroids have been found to have many different orbits, some clustering in streams (see Meteor showers) often associated with a parent comet, others apparently sporadic. Debris from meteoroid streams may eventually be scattered into other orbits. The light spectra, combined with trajectory and light curve measurements, have yielded various compositions and densities, ranging from fragile snowball-like objects with density about a quarter that of ice,[4] to nickel-iron rich dense rocks. Meteoroids travel around the Sun in a variety of orbits and at various velocities. The fastest ones move at about 26 miles per second (42 kilometers per second) through space in the vicinity of Earth's orbit. The Earth travels at about 18 miles per second (29 kilometers per second). Thus, when meteoroids meet the Earth's atmosphere head-on (which would only occur if the meteors were in a retrograde orbit), the combined speed may reach about 44 miles per second (71 kilometers per second). MeteorMeteor and Meteors redirect here. For other uses, see Meteor (disambiguation). See also Hydrometeor. Comet 17P/Holmes and GeminidA meteor is the visible path of a meteoroid that has entered the Earth's atmosphere. Meteors typically occur in the mesosphere, and most range in altitude from 75 km to 100 km.[5] Millions of meteors occur in the Earth's atmosphere every day. Most meteoroids that cause meteors are about the size of a pebble. They become visible between about 40 and 75 miles (65 and 120 kilometers) above the Earth. They disintegrate at altitudes of 30 to 60 miles (50 to 95 kilometers). Meteors have roughly a fifty percent chance of a daylight (or near daylight) collision with the Earth as the Earth orbits in the direction of roughly west at noon.[clarification needed] Most meteors are, however, observed at night as low light conditions allow fainter meteors to be observed. For bodies with a size scale larger than the atmospheric mean free path (10 cm to several metres)[clarification needed] the visibility is due to the atmospheric ram pressure (not friction) that heats the meteoroid so that it glows and creates a shining trail of gases and melted meteoroid particles. The gases include vaporized meteoroid material and atmospheric gases that heat up when the meteoroid passes through the atmosphere. Most meteors glow for about a second. A relatively small percentage of meteoroids hit the Earth's atmosphere and then pass out again: these are termed Earth-grazing fireballs (for example The Great Daylight 1972 Fireball). Meteors may occur in showers, which arise when the Earth passes through a trail of debris left by a comet, or as random or sporadic meteors, not associated with a specific single cause. A number of specific meteors have been observed, largely by members of the public and largely by accident, but with enough detail that orbits of the incoming meteors or meteorites have been calculated. All of them came from orbits from the vicinity of the asteroid belt.[6] FireballA fireball is a brighter-than-usual meteor. The International Astronomical Union defines a fireball as a meteor brighter than any of the planets (magnitude -4 or greater).[7] The International Meteor Organization (an amateur organization that studies meteors) has a more rigid definition. It defines a fireball as a meteor that would have a magnitude of -3 or brighter if seen at zenith. This definition corrects for the greater distance between an observer and a meteor near
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-Bolide
Hi, I understood bolide sofar always simply as a bright meteor up to a fireball. And can't remember, whether I read it ever in a different use than that (despite racing cars). Meanwhile I was reading Pliny (AD 23-79), and Pliny says he has the term bolide from Hipparchus (190-120 BC). For looking up Aristotle (384-322 BC) I was too lazy, couldn't find a latin translation on web and Greek I can't. Should be some terms in the 1st book of his meteora or meteorologica, where he writes about meteorsthunderbolts. Best! Martin Pliny, Natural History 2.25 (Bostock translation) CHAP. 25.EXAMPLES FROM HISTORY OF CELESTIAL PRODIGIES; FACES, LAMPADES, AND BOLIDES. The faces shine brilliantly, but they are never seen excepting when they are falling one of these darted across the heavens, in the sight of all the people, at noon-day, when Germanicus Cæsar was exhibiting a show of gladiators. There are two kinds of them; those which are called lampades and those which are called BOLIDES, one of which latter was seen during the troubles at Mutina. They differ from each other in this respect, that the faces produce a long train of light, the fore-part only being on fire; while the bolides, being entirely in a state of combustion, leave a still longer track behind them. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mark Bowling Gesendet: Sonntag, 16. Januar 2011 18:11 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101-Bolide Hi all, I have understood from my study that a bolide refers to a meteor that breaks up - not requiring the detection of an audible report because, if observed from a distance, the sound may not be heard. It is not a bright meteor or fireball or large impactor, but simply a meteor that breaks up. Right or wrong, that's the way I've been using the term when I report seeing one on the list. Has anybody else been using it that way? I've been lucky to have seen several dozen over the years (often colorful), but none up close like Elton (yet!). I would agree that the IAU should come up with a definition because the term has come to mean too many things and its use is not going to go away any time soon. In fact with the current explosion of public interest (no pun intended), more people are going to find the term and grab onto it. See you all soon! Mark B. Vail, AZ __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 (term: bolides)
Hi, List I award Geekly Martin (his name for himself) the Palm for metoritic scholarship. All I did was look at dictionary definitions and took from the Merriam-Webster first known use: 1834 given by a synopsis of many dictionaries and encyclopedias: http://www.memidex.com/bolide Dictionary scholarship is no match for yours. Obviously, the term bolide has a long historical usage even if the IAU does not consider it a definable term. Big bright fragmenters or bursters would qualify as bolides and will likely still be called that for some time to come.. Thanks for the information! Sterling K. Webb - Original Message - From: Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2011 6:02 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 (term: bolides) Hi Sterling and Chris, Bolis, bolide ist he classical term for the FIERY ones among the four classes of meteors as atmospheric phenomena (would have to look, I guess, should be from Aristotle or maybe one could check Plinius for the term). Note, that Chladni's pioneering work was therefore also titled: Ueber FEUERmeteore About fiery meteors (and the masses, which fall with them). Thus, it's a scientific term and much longer in use, as one supposes. Denominating a special class among meteors, the fiery ones. The other three types of meteors according the four elements were the aqueous ones, those of the air (and earthy meteors. Today we're using meteor only for the fiery class and there in particular for the atmospheric light phenomen of falling rocks from space. Some older references, only as examples: From John Henry Alsted's famous encyclopedia (1630), there is given the definition of meteors and the synonyms. (Scientiarum omnium Encylopaediae, Vol I, p.31) 37. Meteora vera quotuplicia? Quatuor sunt classes ipsorum. In prima classe sunt meteora ignea, numero XIV videlicet, Fax, Ignis perpendicularis, BOLIS, Capra Saltans,... (37. How many true meteors are there? There are four classes of them. In the first class there are the fiery meteors, 16 as follows: Flame (or torch), hanging fire, bolide, jumping goat, ) Or another one from Jan Makowsky Opuscula philosophica omnia of 1660 (for my friend Andrzej, because Maccovius was born in Powiat Pilski): Volume II., chapter 5: De Speciebus Meteoris - about the types of meteors. III. In aere summo exoriuntur ista Meteora: flamma seu fax, trabs seu ignis perpendicularis, bolis. III. In the highest air originate these meteors: flame or torch, bar or hanging fire, bolide. (...) Bolis est sumus mediocriter longus; crastoribus partibus, aequaliter cum subtilioribus commixtis constans; qui accensus in summo aere, sursumque volans, teli ardensis, discurrentisque formam refert. Therefore I think, bolide has, historically seen at least, the prior rights, as it was a scientific term, much more precise than the more unspecific meteor, which was a hyperonym for all kinds of atmospheric phenomena. Btw. Bolis has a second, completely different technical meaning. It means also the lead, the plumb line, especially in nautics. Hence - as you already told, ballein - something which you throw or drop. Speaking of ballein, Remember that the Boss of Gods, Zeus Aegis, hurls flashes and throws thunderbolts towards us! (Bolt...Bolid uuuh kitchen-etymology... who knows) Best! Geeky Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Sterling K. Webb Gesendet: Sonntag, 16. Januar 2011 04:04 An: Chris Peterson; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Bolidc: The term was first used, in the French language, in 1834. The French is derived from classical Latin bolis (generally bolidis), fiery meteor, originally from the classical Greek, ß, missile, arrow, or flash of lightning, akin to ballein, to throw. Definition: a brilliant meteor with a magnitude exceeding -4, especially one that explodes; a very bright fireball. Most dictionary definitions mention explosion or fragmentation. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 6:51 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Most researchers I know consider the body to be a meteoroid while it is in its meteor phase. The term meteoroid is used to specifically identify the body, and distinguish it from the meteor effect. It is also common, and IMO correct, to talk of a meteorite before it hits the ground. Once the meteor phase has ended, surviving material will become
[meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
Hello Everyone, The term meteor refers to the light phenomenon as an object from space enters the Earth's atmosphere. What is the proper term for the object itself? A meteoroid is an object in space. Is it still called a meteoroid when it enters the Earth's atmosphere? -Walter __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
Fun question! In the office working on this Saturday evening and thankful for this distraction ;-) I'm going to go with what you've surmised: meteoroid until striking Earth's surface. all best / d On Jan 15, 2011, at 6:13 PM, Walter Branch wrote: Hello Everyone, The term meteor refers to the light phenomenon as an object from space enters the Earth's atmosphere. What is the proper term for the object itself? A meteoroid is an object in space. Is it still called a meteoroid when it enters the Earth's atmosphere? -Walter __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
Hi Walter and all, This may be the acceptable nomenclature METEOR (mt-r) 1. A bright trail or streak of light that appears in the night sky when a meteoroid enters the Earth's atmosphere. The friction with the air causes the rock to glow with heat. Also called shooting star. 2. A rocky body that produces such light. Most meteors burn up before reaching the Earth's surface. See Note at solar system. Usage The streaks of light we sometimes see in the night sky and call meteors were not identified as interplanetary rocks until the 19th century. Before then, the streaks of light were considered only one of a variety of atmospheric phenomena, all of which bore the name meteor. Rain was an aqueous meteor, winds and storms were airy meteors, and streaks of light in the sky were fiery meteors. This general use of meteor survives in our word meteorology, the study of the weather and atmospheric phenomena. Nowadays, astronomers use any of three words for rocks from interplanetary space, depending on their stage of descent to the Earth. A meteoroid is a rock in space that has the potential to collide with the Earth's atmosphere. Meteoroids range in size from a speck of dust to a chunk about 100 meters in diameter, though most are smaller than a pebble. When a meteoroid enters the atmosphere, it becomes a meteor. The light that it gives off when heated by friction with the atmosphere is also called a meteor. If the rock is not obliterated by the friction and lands on the ground, it is called a meteorite. For this term, scientists borrowed the -ite suffix used in the names of minerals like malachite and pyrite. The American Heritage® Science Dictionary Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. Best to all, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 MetSoc -Original Message- From: Walter Branch waltbra...@bellsouth.net Sent: Jan 15, 2011 3:13 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Hello Everyone, The term meteor refers to the light phenomenon as an object from space enters the Earth's atmosphere. What is the proper term for the object itself? A meteoroid is an object in space. Is it still called a meteoroid when it enters the Earth's atmosphere? -Walter __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
Hey Darryl, Working! On Saturday evening? In the words of Ebenezer Scrooge, Bah, humbug. My wife and daughter are out buying some new shoes and when asked if I wanted to come along, I politely replied, no. I pretended to begin ironing clothes but the moment they left I took out my telescopes for a night of observing - a much more pleasurable activity ;-). -Walter - Original Message - From: Darryl Pitt dar...@dof3.com To: Walter Branch waltbra...@bellsouth.net Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 6:27 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Fun question! In the office working on this Saturday evening and thankful for this distraction ;-) I'm going to go with what you've surmised: meteoroid until striking Earth's surface. all best / d On Jan 15, 2011, at 6:13 PM, Walter Branch wrote: Hello Everyone, The term meteor refers to the light phenomenon as an object from space enters the Earth's atmosphere. What is the proper term for the object itself? A meteoroid is an object in space. Is it still called a meteoroid when it enters the Earth's atmosphere? -Walter __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
Hello Count, Yes, many writers refer to the light phenomenon and the object itself as meteor but some make a distinction between the two. That definition does both, seemingly in the same breath! Also, does light originate from the glowing rock itself or the plasma (ionized gas) surrounding it? I thought from the plasma. -Walter - Original Message - From: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net To: Walter Branch waltbra...@bellsouth.net; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 6:30 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Hi Walter and all, This may be the acceptable nomenclature METEOR (mt-r) 1. A bright trail or streak of light that appears in the night sky when a meteoroid enters the Earth's atmosphere. The friction with the air causes the rock to glow with heat. Also called shooting star. 2. A rocky body that produces such light. Most meteors burn up before reaching the Earth's surface. See Note at solar system. Usage The streaks of light we sometimes see in the night sky and call meteors were not identified as interplanetary rocks until the 19th century. Before then, the streaks of light were considered only one of a variety of atmospheric phenomena, all of which bore the name meteor. Rain was an aqueous meteor, winds and storms were airy meteors, and streaks of light in the sky were fiery meteors. This general use of meteor survives in our word meteorology, the study of the weather and atmospheric phenomena. Nowadays, astronomers use any of three words for rocks from interplanetary space, depending on their stage of descent to the Earth. A meteoroid is a rock in space that has the potential to collide with the Earth's atmosphere. Meteoroids range in size from a speck of dust to a chunk about 100 meters in diameter, though most are smaller than a pebble. When a meteoroid enters the atmosphere, it becomes a meteor. The light that it gives off when heated by friction with the atmosphere is also called a meteor. If the rock is not obliterated by the friction and lands on the ground, it is called a meteorite. For this term, scientists borrowed the -ite suffix used in the names of minerals like malachite and pyrite. The American Heritage® Science Dictionary Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. Best to all, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 MetSoc -Original Message- From: Walter Branch waltbra...@bellsouth.net Sent: Jan 15, 2011 3:13 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Hello Everyone, The term meteor refers to the light phenomenon as an object from space enters the Earth's atmosphere. What is the proper term for the object itself? A meteoroid is an object in space. Is it still called a meteoroid when it enters the Earth's atmosphere? -Walter __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
Thanks for the definition. Let's see if I have this straight Meteoroid = in space Meteor = The act of the previous meteoroid entering the atmosphere and producing light. Meteorite = Meteoroid, now meteor, that landed and becomes a meteorite. Let me muddy the waters a bit more:-) Where does the term Bolide figure in as compared to a fireball? I haven't found a good description of the difference. Rod --- On Sat, 1/15/11, Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net wrote: From: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 To: Walter Branch waltbra...@bellsouth.net, Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Saturday, January 15, 2011, 6:30 PM Hi Walter and all, This may be the acceptable nomenclature METEOR (mt-r) 1. A bright trail or streak of light that appears in the night sky when a meteoroid enters the Earth's atmosphere. The friction with the air causes the rock to glow with heat. Also called shooting star. 2. A rocky body that produces such light. Most meteors burn up before reaching the Earth's surface. See Note at solar system. Usage The streaks of light we sometimes see in the night sky and call meteors were not identified as interplanetary rocks until the 19th century. Before then, the streaks of light were considered only one of a variety of atmospheric phenomena, all of which bore the name meteor. Rain was an aqueous meteor, winds and storms were airy meteors, and streaks of light in the sky were fiery meteors. This general use of meteor survives in our word meteorology, the study of the weather and atmospheric phenomena. Nowadays, astronomers use any of three words for rocks from interplanetary space, depending on their stage of descent to the Earth. A meteoroid is a rock in space that has the potential to collide with the Earth's atmosphere. Meteoroids range in size from a speck of dust to a chunk about 100 meters in diameter, though most are smaller than a pebble. When a meteoroid enters the atmosphere, it becomes a meteor. The light that it gives off when heated by friction with the atmosphere is also called a meteor. If the rock is not obliterated by the friction and lands on the ground, it is called a meteorite. For this term, scientists borrowed the -ite suffix used in the names of minerals like malachite and pyrite. The American Heritage® Science Dictionary Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. Best to all, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 MetSoc -Original Message- From: Walter Branch waltbra...@bellsouth.net Sent: Jan 15, 2011 3:13 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Hello Everyone, The term meteor refers to the light phenomenon as an object from space enters the Earth's atmosphere. What is the proper term for the object itself? A meteoroid is an object in space. Is it still called a meteoroid when it enters the Earth's atmosphere? -Walter __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
Hey Rod, Where does the term Bolide figure in as compared to a fireball? Yea, that one has always puzzled me as well. -Walter - Original Message - From: R. Chastain suen...@yahoo.com To: Walter Branch waltbra...@bellsouth.net; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Thanks for the definition. Let's see if I have this straight Meteoroid = in space Meteor = The act of the previous meteoroid entering the atmosphere and producing light. Meteorite = Meteoroid, now meteor, that landed and becomes a meteorite. Let me muddy the waters a bit more:-) Where does the term Bolide figure in as compared to a fireball? I haven't found a good description of the difference. Rod --- On Sat, 1/15/11, Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net wrote: From: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 To: Walter Branch waltbra...@bellsouth.net, Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Saturday, January 15, 2011, 6:30 PM Hi Walter and all, This may be the acceptable nomenclature METEOR (mt-r) 1. A bright trail or streak of light that appears in the night sky when a meteoroid enters the Earth's atmosphere. The friction with the air causes the rock to glow with heat. Also called shooting star. 2. A rocky body that produces such light. Most meteors burn up before reaching the Earth's surface. See Note at solar system. Usage The streaks of light we sometimes see in the night sky and call meteors were not identified as interplanetary rocks until the 19th century. Before then, the streaks of light were considered only one of a variety of atmospheric phenomena, all of which bore the name meteor. Rain was an aqueous meteor, winds and storms were airy meteors, and streaks of light in the sky were fiery meteors. This general use of meteor survives in our word meteorology, the study of the weather and atmospheric phenomena. Nowadays, astronomers use any of three words for rocks from interplanetary space, depending on their stage of descent to the Earth. A meteoroid is a rock in space that has the potential to collide with the Earth's atmosphere. Meteoroids range in size from a speck of dust to a chunk about 100 meters in diameter, though most are smaller than a pebble. When a meteoroid enters the atmosphere, it becomes a meteor. The light that it gives off when heated by friction with the atmosphere is also called a meteor. If the rock is not obliterated by the friction and lands on the ground, it is called a meteorite. For this term, scientists borrowed the -ite suffix used in the names of minerals like malachite and pyrite. The American Heritage® Science Dictionary Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. Best to all, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 MetSoc -Original Message- From: Walter Branch waltbra...@bellsouth.net Sent: Jan 15, 2011 3:13 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Hello Everyone, The term meteor refers to the light phenomenon as an object from space enters the Earth's atmosphere. What is the proper term for the object itself? A meteoroid is an object in space. Is it still called a meteoroid when it enters the Earth's atmosphere? -Walter __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
Most researchers I know consider the body to be a meteoroid while it is in its meteor phase. The term meteoroid is used to specifically identify the body, and distinguish it from the meteor effect. It is also common, and IMO correct, to talk of a meteorite before it hits the ground. Once the meteor phase has ended, surviving material will become meteorites, and may quite acceptably be called such (as in discussing the dark flight phase of a meteorite). Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Walter Branch waltbra...@bellsouth.net To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 4:13 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Hello Everyone, The term meteor refers to the light phenomenon as an object from space enters the Earth's atmosphere. What is the proper term for the object itself? A meteoroid is an object in space. Is it still called a meteoroid when it enters the Earth's atmosphere? -Walter __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
Meteor, meteorite, and meteoioid: In response to the American Heritage® Science Dictionary Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company, which is reported here to have stated that the object itself may be termed a meteor while in flight through the atmosphere, note that dictionaries are not the authoritative source for what an object is or is not. Dictionaries reflect only common (popular) usage, and if it is not a technical dictionary, more so. I remember being told as a student taking a graduate level course in the History and Development of the English language that dictionaries may be as much as 50 years behind the times in reflecting current usage. Within the informed scientific community, among those who are meteoriticists, a meteor refers to the light phenomena of the meteoroid while traversing through our atmosphere, and the object itself remains a meteoroid until it strikes the Earth or whatever other astronomical body it intercepts. Then it is referred to a meteorite. Note also the term micro-meteorites. Sometimes these terms are used incorrectly (and sloppily) in a popular, or non-technical sense, usually by the layman (or the news media). I don't think anyone has or will ever be burned at the stake for referring to a meteoroid as a meteor, unless they are of course one of my former students (joke)! But this is the way I have always seen these terms used when used correctly. This is the way I learned it as a student who received a degree in Astronomy from U.C.L.A. and who studied under one of the world's most respected meteoriticists, Dr. Frederick C.Leonard, who by the way was one of the founders of the Meteoritical Society. (Dr. Leonard was the first Editor of Meteoritics: the Journal of the Meteoritical Society. And, he was a perfectionist with the English Language.) I recall a number of discussions in class over these definitions, such as what would we call it if we were carrying a basket, and the meteoroid were to land in the basket, rather than hitting the Earth. Dr. Leonard, would it still be a meteoroid? (He would respond by clearing his throat with a faint growl, and ignore our question. But we knew he was fond of us!) Ron Hartman - Original Message - From: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net To: Walter Branch waltbra...@bellsouth.net; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 3:30 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Hi Walter and all, This may be the acceptable nomenclature METEOR (mt-r) 1. A bright trail or streak of light that appears in the night sky when a meteoroid enters the Earth's atmosphere. The friction with the air causes the rock to glow with heat. Also called shooting star. 2. A rocky body that produces such light. Most meteors burn up before reaching the Earth's surface. See Note at solar system. Usage The streaks of light we sometimes see in the night sky and call meteors were not identified as interplanetary rocks until the 19th century. Before then, the streaks of light were considered only one of a variety of atmospheric phenomena, all of which bore the name meteor. Rain was an aqueous meteor, winds and storms were airy meteors, and streaks of light in the sky were fiery meteors. This general use of meteor survives in our word meteorology, the study of the weather and atmospheric phenomena. Nowadays, astronomers use any of three words for rocks from interplanetary space, depending on their stage of descent to the Earth. A meteoroid is a rock in space that has the potential to collide with the Earth's atmosphere. Meteoroids range in size from a speck of dust to a chunk about 100 meters in diameter, though most are smaller than a pebble. When a meteoroid enters the atmosphere, it becomes a meteor. The light that it gives off when heated by friction with the atmosphere is also called a meteor. If the rock is not obliterated by the friction and lands on the ground, it is called a meteorite. For this term, scientists borrowed the -ite suffix used in the names of minerals like malachite and pyrite. The American Heritage® Science Dictionary Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. Best to all, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 MetSoc -Original Message- From: Walter Branch waltbra...@bellsouth.net Sent: Jan 15, 2011 3:13 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Hello Everyone, The term meteor refers to the light phenomenon as an object from space enters the Earth's atmosphere. What is the proper term for the object itself? A meteoroid is an object in space. Is it still called a meteoroid when it enters the Earth's atmosphere? -Walter __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
Bolide is a term that it's good to avoid. It doesn't mean anything... or rather, it means too many different things. Fireball unambiguously means a meteor of a specific apparent brightness. Bolide is simply confusing. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: R. Chastain suen...@yahoo.com To: Walter Branch waltbra...@bellsouth.net; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 5:12 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Thanks for the definition. Let's see if I have this straight Meteoroid = in space Meteor = The act of the previous meteoroid entering the atmosphere and producing light. Meteorite = Meteoroid, now meteor, that landed and becomes a meteorite. Let me muddy the waters a bit more:-) Where does the term Bolide figure in as compared to a fireball? I haven't found a good description of the difference. Rod __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
Bolide is a term that it's good to avoid. It doesn't mean anything... or rather, it means too many different things. Fireball unambiguously means a meteor of a specific apparent brightness. Bolide is simply confusing. I usually think of a fireball as a meteor with a magnitude brighter than -3. I also sometimes think of a Bolide as being a fireball that has produced a sonic boom as well. GeoZay __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
See I always thought bolide was a a large fireball that fragmented. Is it safe to say only bolides become meteorites? So the scale of bigness: meteor, fireball, bolide, super bolide. Super bolides are the ones shaking homes and =-24 magnitude. Great distraction after a terrible defeat by the squeelers. Congrats mike. On Jan 15, 2011, at 7:53 PM, Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu wrote: Bolide is a term that it's good to avoid. It doesn't mean anything... or rather, it means too many different things. Fireball unambiguously means a meteor of a specific apparent brightness. Bolide is simply confusing. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: R. Chastain suen...@yahoo.com To: Walter Branch waltbra...@bellsouth.net; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 5:12 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Thanks for the definition. Let's see if I have this straight Meteoroid = in space Meteor = The act of the previous meteoroid entering the atmosphere and producing light. Meteorite = Meteoroid, now meteor, that landed and becomes a meteorite. Let me muddy the waters a bit more:-) Where does the term Bolide figure in as compared to a fireball? I haven't found a good description of the difference. Rod __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
Hello Ron, Yes, that's it. A distinction between the light and the object itself. So, back to my original question. The object itself is still referred to as a meteoroid while it is traveling in the Earth's atmosphere. Your anecdote regarding Dr. Leonard reminded me of the Dorothy Norton cartoon which appeared in Meteorite a while back, the one about the boy catching the meteorite -Walter - Original Message - From: R N Hartman rhartma...@earthlink.net To: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net; Walter Branch waltbra...@bellsouth.net; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Meteorite1 meteori...@earthlink.net Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 7:54 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Meteor, meteorite, and meteoioid: In response to the American Heritage® Science Dictionary Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company, which is reported here to have stated that the object itself may be termed a meteor while in flight through the atmosphere, note that dictionaries are not the authoritative source for what an object is or is not. Dictionaries reflect only common (popular) usage, and if it is not a technical dictionary, more so. I remember being told as a student taking a graduate level course in the History and Development of the English language that dictionaries may be as much as 50 years behind the times in reflecting current usage. Within the informed scientific community, among those who are meteoriticists, a meteor refers to the light phenomena of the meteoroid while traversing through our atmosphere, and the object itself remains a meteoroid until it strikes the Earth or whatever other astronomical body it intercepts. Then it is referred to a meteorite. Note also the term micro-meteorites. Sometimes these terms are used incorrectly (and sloppily) in a popular, or non-technical sense, usually by the layman (or the news media). I don't think anyone has or will ever be burned at the stake for referring to a meteoroid as a meteor, unless they are of course one of my former students (joke)! But this is the way I have always seen these terms used when used correctly. This is the way I learned it as a student who received a degree in Astronomy from U.C.L.A. and who studied under one of the world's most respected meteoriticists, Dr. Frederick C.Leonard, who by the way was one of the founders of the Meteoritical Society. (Dr. Leonard was the first Editor of Meteoritics: the Journal of the Meteoritical Society. And, he was a perfectionist with the English Language.) I recall a number of discussions in class over these definitions, such as what would we call it if we were carrying a basket, and the meteoroid were to land in the basket, rather than hitting the Earth. Dr. Leonard, would it still be a meteoroid? (He would respond by clearing his throat with a faint growl, and ignore our question. But we knew he was fond of us!) Ron Hartman __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
No. In fact, there is good evidence to suggest that the great majority of meteorites are produced by rather small meteors, which not only don't fragment, but aren't even fireballs. The sense that meteorites are the product of big, spectacular, fragmenting fireballs is produced because those are the only sorts of events where we can correlate the meteor and the meteorite. Nobody notices the unimpressive meteors, or ever connects them to particular meteorites. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Mike Hankey mike.han...@gmail.com To: Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 6:18 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 See I always thought bolide was a a large fireball that fragmented. Is it safe to say only bolides become meteorites? So the scale of bigness: meteor, fireball, bolide, super bolide. Super bolides are the ones shaking homes and =-24 magnitude. Great distraction after a terrible defeat by the squeelers. Congrats mike. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
of bolide, and generally considers the term synonymous with fireball. The bolide term is generally used for fireballs reaching magnitude -14 or brighter.[9] Astronomers tend to use the term to mean an exceptionally bright fireball, particularly one that explodes (sometimes called a detonating fireball). In geology Geologists use the term bolide more often than astronomers do: in geology it indicates a very large impactor. For example, the USGS uses the term to mean a generic large crater-forming projectile to imply that we do not know the precise nature of the impacting body ... whether it is a rocky or metallic asteroid, or an icy comet, for example.[10] SuperbolideIf the magnitude of a bolide reaches -17 or brighter it is known as a superbolide.[9][11] MeteoriteMain article: meteorite A meteorite is a portion of a meteoroid or asteroid that survives its passage through the atmosphere and impact with the ground without being destroyed.[12] Meteorites are sometimes, but not always, found in association with hypervelocity impact craters; during energetic collisions, the entire impactor may be vaporized, leaving no meteorites. TektiteMain article: tektite Two tektitesMolten terrestrial material splashed from a meteorite impact crater can cool and solidify into an object known as a tektite. These are often mistaken for meteorites. Meteoric dustMost meteoroids burn up when they enter the atmosphere. The left-over debris is called meteoric dust or just meteor dust. Meteor dust particles can persist in the atmosphere for up to several months. These particles might affect climate, both by scattering electromagnetic radiation and by catalyzing chemical reactions in the upper atmosphere.[13] Does this help any? Seems about correct. -Barrett -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of geo...@aol.com Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 5:59 PM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Bolide is a term that it's good to avoid. It doesn't mean anything... or rather, it means too many different things. Fireball unambiguously means a meteor of a specific apparent brightness. Bolide is simply confusing. I usually think of a fireball as a meteor with a magnitude brighter than -3. I also sometimes think of a Bolide as being a fireball that has produced a sonic boom as well. GeoZay __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
The Lerner-Trigg Encyclopedia of Physics, pg.1137 doesn't help much. The ONLY thing they have to say is; Meteorites, which occasionally fall to earth, are thought to be mostly fragments of asteroids scattered into earth-orbit crossing trajectories by gravitational resonance interactions, and pieces of comets on other debris moving through the vicinity of Earth. Analyses of meteorites have provided important clues about the formation and early history of the solar system. NOTHING about the distinction of the three differentiations of this thread. So much for physics huh? :-) -Barrett -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of R N Hartman Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 5:54 PM To: Count Deiro; Walter Branch; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: Meteorite1 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Meteor, meteorite, and meteoioid: In response to the American Heritage® Science Dictionary Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company, which is reported here to have stated that the object itself may be termed a meteor while in flight through the atmosphere, note that dictionaries are not the authoritative source for what an object is or is not. Dictionaries reflect only common (popular) usage, and if it is not a technical dictionary, more so. I remember being told as a student taking a graduate level course in the History and Development of the English language that dictionaries may be as much as 50 years behind the times in reflecting current usage. Within the informed scientific community, among those who are meteoriticists, a meteor refers to the light phenomena of the meteoroid while traversing through our atmosphere, and the object itself remains a meteoroid until it strikes the Earth or whatever other astronomical body it intercepts. Then it is referred to a meteorite. Note also the term micro-meteorites. Sometimes these terms are used incorrectly (and sloppily) in a popular, or non-technical sense, usually by the layman (or the news media). I don't think anyone has or will ever be burned at the stake for referring to a meteoroid as a meteor, unless they are of course one of my former students (joke)! But this is the way I have always seen these terms used when used correctly. This is the way I learned it as a student who received a degree in Astronomy from U.C.L.A. and who studied under one of the world's most respected meteoriticists, Dr. Frederick C.Leonard, who by the way was one of the founders of the Meteoritical Society. (Dr. Leonard was the first Editor of Meteoritics: the Journal of the Meteoritical Society. And, he was a perfectionist with the English Language.) I recall a number of discussions in class over these definitions, such as what would we call it if we were carrying a basket, and the meteoroid were to land in the basket, rather than hitting the Earth. Dr. Leonard, would it still be a meteoroid? (He would respond by clearing his throat with a faint growl, and ignore our question. But we knew he was fond of us!) Ron Hartman - Original Message - From: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net To: Walter Branch waltbra...@bellsouth.net; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 3:30 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Hi Walter and all, This may be the acceptable nomenclature METEOR (mt-r) 1. A bright trail or streak of light that appears in the night sky when a meteoroid enters the Earth's atmosphere. The friction with the air causes the rock to glow with heat. Also called shooting star. 2. A rocky body that produces such light. Most meteors burn up before reaching the Earth's surface. See Note at solar system. Usage The streaks of light we sometimes see in the night sky and call meteors were not identified as interplanetary rocks until the 19th century. Before then, the streaks of light were considered only one of a variety of atmospheric phenomena, all of which bore the name meteor. Rain was an aqueous meteor, winds and storms were airy meteors, and streaks of light in the sky were fiery meteors. This general use of meteor survives in our word meteorology, the study of the weather and atmospheric phenomena. Nowadays, astronomers use any of three words for rocks from interplanetary space, depending on their stage of descent to the Earth. A meteoroid is a rock in space that has the potential to collide with the Earth's atmosphere. Meteoroids range in size from a speck of dust to a chunk about 100 meters in diameter, though most are smaller than a pebble. When a meteoroid enters the atmosphere, it becomes a meteor. The light that it gives off when heated by friction with the atmosphere is also called a meteor. If the rock is not obliterated by the friction and lands on the ground, it is called
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
Interesting...I did not know that. So why is it then that folks on the met list only care about the boomers that happen 3-5 times a year and write off the minor events that seem to happen daily. There seems to be a belief on the list that no boom = no meteorite. No bolide = no meteorite. You're saying this is not true? Then what are the factors that determine meteorite and how can we properly ID the producers? I also hope you arent talking about micro meteorites. Because statistically... PS did you catch last nights green fireball on your sky cam? It was reported from CO, WY, NV and CA On Jan 15, 2011, at 8:29 PM, Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu wrote: No. In fact, there is good evidence to suggest that the great majority of meteorites are produced by rather small meteors, which not only don't fragment, but aren't even fireballs. The sense that meteorites are the product of big, spectacular, fragmenting fireballs is produced because those are the only sorts of events where we can correlate the meteor and the meteorite. Nobody notices the unimpressive meteors, or ever connects them to particular meteorites. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Mike Hankey mike.han...@gmail.com To: Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 6:18 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 See I always thought bolide was a a large fireball that fragmented. Is it safe to say only bolides become meteorites? So the scale of bigness: meteor, fireball, bolide, super bolide. Super bolides are the ones shaking homes and =-24 magnitude. Great distraction after a terrible defeat by the squeelers. Congrats mike. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
Most meteorites are single entities. They probably result from non-fragmenting events- just a piece of rock that enters slow and shallow, stops burning, and the core hits the ground. Meteorites that are grouped and found in strewn fields come from larger, fragmenting events. Meteorite hunters don't pay so much attention to small meteors because there's usually not enough information to use. Most are not caught on any instruments and result in few if any witnesses. And since they usually only produce a single, small fragment, the likelihood of recovery is smaller. Fragmenting fireballs and sonic booms are good indicators of meteorite production. But their absence does not suggest the absence of meteorites. Even if most meteorites follow small meteors, there is a clear, logical basis to only chasing the big fireballs. The meteor you refer to was not on my camera. The cameras closer to Denver haven't reported in yet- probably on Monday. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Mike Hankey mike.han...@gmail.com To: Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu Cc: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Interesting...I did not know that. So why is it then that folks on the met list only care about the boomers that happen 3-5 times a year and write off the minor events that seem to happen daily. There seems to be a belief on the list that no boom = no meteorite. No bolide = no meteorite. You're saying this is not true? Then what are the factors that determine meteorite and how can we properly ID the producers? I also hope you arent talking about micro meteorites. Because statistically... PS did you catch last nights green fireball on your sky cam? It was reported from CO, WY, NV and CA __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
Bolidc: The term was first used, in the French language, in 1834. The French is derived from classical Latin bolis (generally bolidis), fiery meteor, originally from the classical Greek, βολις, missile, arrow, or flash of lightning, akin to ballein, to throw. Definition: a brilliant meteor with a magnitude exceeding -4, especially one that explodes; a very bright fireball. Most dictionary definitions mention explosion or fragmentation. Sterling K. Webb --- - Original Message - From: Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 6:51 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Most researchers I know consider the body to be a meteoroid while it is in its meteor phase. The term meteoroid is used to specifically identify the body, and distinguish it from the meteor effect. It is also common, and IMO correct, to talk of a meteorite before it hits the ground. Once the meteor phase has ended, surviving material will become meteorites, and may quite acceptably be called such (as in discussing the dark flight phase of a meteorite). Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Walter Branch waltbra...@bellsouth.net To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 4:13 PM Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Hello Everyone, The term meteor refers to the light phenomenon as an object from space enters the Earth's atmosphere. What is the proper term for the object itself? A meteoroid is an object in space. Is it still called a meteoroid when it enters the Earth's atmosphere? -Walter __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
So when does a meteoroid become an asteroid?? (or vice versa) -Original Message- From: Count Deiro Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 6:30 PM To: Walter Branch ; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Hi Walter and all, This may be the acceptable nomenclature METEOR (mt-r) 1. A bright trail or streak of light that appears in the night sky when a meteoroid enters the Earth's atmosphere. The friction with the air causes the rock to glow with heat. Also called shooting star. 2. A rocky body that produces such light. Most meteors burn up before reaching the Earth's surface. See Note at solar system. Usage The streaks of light we sometimes see in the night sky and call meteors were not identified as interplanetary rocks until the 19th century. Before then, the streaks of light were considered only one of a variety of atmospheric phenomena, all of which bore the name meteor. Rain was an aqueous meteor, winds and storms were airy meteors, and streaks of light in the sky were fiery meteors. This general use of meteor survives in our word meteorology, the study of the weather and atmospheric phenomena. Nowadays, astronomers use any of three words for rocks from interplanetary space, depending on their stage of descent to the Earth. A meteoroid is a rock in space that has the potential to collide with the Earth's atmosphere. Meteoroids range in size from a speck of dust to a chunk about 100 meters in diameter, though most are smaller than a pebble. When a meteoroid enters the atmosphere, it becomes a meteor. The light that it gives off when heated by friction with the atmosphere is also called a meteor. If the rock is not obliterated by the friction and lands on the ground, it is called a meteorite. For this term, scientists borrowed the -ite suffix used in the names of minerals like malachite and pyrite. The American Heritage® Science Dictionary Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. Best to all, Count Deiro IMCA 3536 MetSoc -Original Message- From: Walter Branch waltbra...@bellsouth.net Sent: Jan 15, 2011 3:13 PM To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Hello Everyone, The term meteor refers to the light phenomenon as an object from space enters the Earth's atmosphere. What is the proper term for the object itself? A meteoroid is an object in space. Is it still called a meteoroid when it enters the Earth's atmosphere? -Walter __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
10 meters is commonly cited. But realistically, the line is a blurry one. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Stuart McDaniel actionshoot...@carolina.rr.com To: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net; Walter Branch waltbra...@bellsouth.net; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 8:24 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 So when does a meteoroid become an asteroid?? (or vice versa) __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
Note, however, that the IAU defines fireball but is silent about bolide. So if the context demands some precision, bolide is best avoided. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb sterling_k_w...@sbcglobal.net To: Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 8:04 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Bolidc: The term was first used, in the French language, in 1834. The French is derived from classical Latin bolis (generally bolidis), fiery meteor, originally from the classical Greek, βολις, missile, arrow, or flash of lightning, akin to ballein, to throw. Definition: a brilliant meteor with a magnitude exceeding -4, especially one that explodes; a very bright fireball. Most dictionary definitions mention explosion or fragmentation. Sterling K. Webb __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
Hello Stuart: We have had this conversation before. Your second question(when does an asteroid become a meteoroid): There is no real minimum asteroid size or maximum meteoroid size. When it comes up as a question, I usually say 5 or 10 meters is the crossover. Also, if an asteroid gets hit by something else, it will make lots of meteoroids! Your second question (when does a meteoroid become an asteroid): any small object that is not a comet (or man-made) when it has been observed and an orbit around the Sun is determined (even poorly) is an asteroid. The Minor Planet Center gives designations to asteroids (minor planets), not meteoroids. So, this could mean that an object only a few meters in diameter can be given asteroid status. Larry __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
Chris: If it is blurry, it is called a comet! :-) Larry 10 meters is commonly cited. But realistically, the line is a blurry one. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Stuart McDaniel actionshoot...@carolina.rr.com To: Count Deiro countde...@earthlink.net; Walter Branch waltbra...@bellsouth.net; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 8:24 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 So when does a meteoroid become an asteroid?? (or vice versa) __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101
Last statement on this topic (to avoid more crossing emails). The definition I have seen is that a fireball is defined as something brighter than Venus (so yes, about -4). Yes, the term bolide is generally avoided, but it is still used: People who study cratering events will use the terms impactor or bolide for the thing tghat makes the hole in the ground. This avoids having to deal with the object being a big meteoroid, an asteroid, or a comet. Larry Note, however, that the IAU defines fireball but is silent about bolide. So if the context demands some precision, bolide is best avoided. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: Sterling K. Webb sterling_k_w...@sbcglobal.net To: Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu; Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2011 8:04 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorites 101 Bolidc: The term was first used, in the French language, in 1834. The French is derived from classical Latin bolis (generally bolidis), fiery meteor, originally from the classical Greek, βολιÏ, missile, arrow, or flash of lightning, akin to ballein, to throw. Definition: a brilliant meteor with a magnitude exceeding -4, especially one that explodes; a very bright fireball. Most dictionary definitions mention explosion or fragmentation. Sterling K. Webb __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
