Re: [meteorite-list] BLM Law vs Type Sample
I hope you and Norm are right. The BLM should be providing a FAQ page at some point that can put some of the questions to rest. For the record, I'll comply with the rules. I've never sold or traded a meteorite I've found so far, so I'll never need a permit. These changed don't impact my past practices except now I can only collect 4% of the yearly limit I could before (not that I have been that lucky, but we know people who have, some who aren't considered dealers). My home is west of the Pecos, in a state that's about 88% publicly owned. Quite a few times I've been wrongly hassled by federal agents. They knew they were wrong and still intimidated me. But I have found that if you show some knowledge of the law and drop a name (like the district ranger) they will move on (even though they had claimed you're breaking the law and they have to dead to rights(!?). It's clear intimidation. How many others, doing no harm and wanting to be lawful, give in and go home? Now that's not most of the time. Agents are often very nice and will eagerly share their time and discuss their area of expertise if you show interest. But there are a significant percentage of crusaders out there too. Sure, the BLM will not staff up, or peak in your windows or lurk on this forum or check your auctions, but as budgets get tighter, they will look for revenue. As visitor density continues to increase at a fast pace, use permits will be seen as a good source revenue. As a minority, meteorite hunters will be squeezed, especially if a significant number of us see this as harmless or as not affecting them. If we fragment on this, and casual collection is eventually restricted, we will have lost momentum. And new limits will be seen as normal and nothing new. We will be vilified as grave robbers, and the majority of well-meaning citizens, who want to protect our resources, will see us as such. Government regulations never shrink but we can try to direct their focus. If we act now and try to open a dialogue about some minor changes, we could end up with a good system, which would help legitimize our activities and enhance meteorite recovery. I've known people fined by BLM USFS for doing things that were pretty tame and weren't commercial activity. And though they weren't fined to the breaking point, there are examples of Westerners financially ruined while proving they were in the right. So I'd rather not be faced with a situation like this and let my pack in/pack out, tread-lightly actions speak for me as they have over the last 30 years. It's funny, I've stumbled upon scores of places covered over by tons of trash and human excrement and no agency does anything to clean up these easy to find public health hazards. Problems which impact more land surface than our group will cover in a lifetime. If we do nothing, someone we know will be the first unlucky example. Is Battle Mountain on BLM land? Will that be the first place to see these rules played out? Clear skies, Mark From: Doug Ross d...@dougross.net To: Meteorite List List meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Cc: nlehr...@nvbell.net; Martin Altmann altm...@meteorite-martin.de Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 8:46 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM Law vs Type Sample Very amusing (and valid) points, Martin! Nobody likes to be subjected to new rules and restrictions, and it's easy to speculate about the potential pitfalls of the new BLM rules, but I tend to agree with Norm. If the Feds were really viewing meteorite hunters as public enemy number one, they could have already been citing us for any of these offenses (and more) before the new guidelines were even issued. I seriously doubt that the BLM secret police are going to be out in force, strip searching rock hounders on public land and conducting nickel tests on all rocks found in their possession. Let's not get too carried away here, folks. My guess is that this will all soon die down, the BLM will largely forget about us, and things will pretty much go back to the way they were. Of course, I could be wrong It seems to me the people most likely to suffer significant scrutiny and potentially serious consequences are the professional hunters, especially when hunting highly publicized witnessed falls. I don't know what the solution is for that, honestly. Glad I'm just an amateur hunter! Okay, I've donned my asbestos suit, so flame away! ;-) -Doug Ross So in any case, when you go on BLM land, in first instance you will be always collecting rocks there and not meteorites, Therefore these rules do not apply. Or do BLM or FED officers in the field exist, who could tell a chondrite apart from a terrestrial rock or who could identify an achondrite by visual inspection? Could be a field of job creation: Federal Meteorite Ranger! (Ehm... the first US lunar will have a weight
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM Law vs Type Sample
List, I approached the BLM for clarification on two specific points: 1) Casual trading of meteorites for other meteorites between individuals and institutions, and 2) Donation/trade of a type specimen for classification purposes. Please allow me to share the results of that inquiry. On item 1, casual trading, I was informed by Lucy Kuizon, BLM National Paleontologist, ...the BLM uses the definition of “barter” as formally described by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). There are several types of barter, some of which requires the filing of forms to report certain types of exchanges that are considered by the IRS to be reportable income by both parties in the exchange. Usually these parties are small businesses or sole proprietors. Here is an IRS link for reference: http://www.irs.gov/uac/Four-Facts-About-Bartering; Further, she stated [non-commercial trading was a term I used in my initial inquiry], ...“non-commercial trading of meteorites” where (1) it is a one-on-one trade or exchange, and (2) there is no IRS reporting requirement for tax purposes, this is appropriately part of casual or hobby collecting. This is considered personal non-commercial use. As casual collectors we can all continue to trade meteorites we find on public lands for other meteorites as part of the hobby we all enjoy. These trades can no longer include cash, as may be the case for commercial trades, otherwise a permit from the BLM would be required per 43 CFR 2920 regulations. With respect to item 2, type specimens, she wrote: Your description of “type specimen” is a type of “exchange” that is benefitting the science of meteorites. Let me address that concept in each of the type of collecting scenarios. First, under true casual collecting, that is, for non-commercial personal use and no exchange of cash or income-type services, that type of exchange is allowable, and may be considered a donation to the educational or scientific institution. Under the scientific collecting permit, this type of exchange is a little more complex and is not really acceptable. The institution that recovers the meteorite must certify that the meteorite will be curated in that institution in perpetuity. The meteorite is considered federal property under the federal property and accounting laws and regulations. The concept of removing a piece of the meteorite in payment for the services of the agent who recovers it is not a typical action we would allow for other scientifically important resources we issue permits for on public lands, such as cultural artifacts and paleontological resources. Lastly, under a commercial permit, yes, that type of exchange is acceptable, but probably would need to be factored into the fees and rental that would be calculated for the permit. It may possibly lower the amount of the rental being charged. But, that would be at the discretion of the state appraiser. The meteorite professional must communicate this type of exchange clearly to the BLM when applying for a commercial permit because of the influence on the estimate of the rental fees. I replied back that a type specimen would not really be applicable under a scientific collecting permit since the institution will be receiving 100% of the recovered meteorites for study and curation. So good news, we can still trade our meteorites and are still able to donate type specimens for classification purposes. I hope this helps keep a little piece of the sky from falling. Best, Michael in so. Cal. __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM Law vs Type Sample
Hi Greg and List (again), I hope we don't see BLM meteorites treated (by the scientific community) the same way meteorites from questionable countries are treated. In other words, I hope the next BLM find or fall does not become the next Breja. In Breja we had a new fall that scientists and institutions are scared to touch, because of the legal questions surrounding it. Who suffers and who gains in such a scenario? Will Breja ever be classified? Will it ever be officially studied or published? What if it has something important to contribute to science? We'll never know. Let us hope BLM meteorites do not get the Breja-treatment. Politics and regulations should not interfere with science, but we see it frequently in other areas of science - stem cell research comes to mind. And now meteorites are going to become another victim of bureaucracy. This is where the meteorite community really needs a powerful advocate who can gain access to the policy makers. I don't care if it's the IMCA, Met Soc, or an informal group such as a consortium of politically-active (and monied) collectors and hunters - somebody needs to be proactive and do something before this snowballs beyond our control, if it hasn't already. There are some members of our community who have access to the media (and television networks), and perhaps it's time for these members to step up to the plate and advocate on the behalf of the community. It will be risky, it will be largely thankless, and it might be futile, but it's worth trying. If we do nothing, we know what will eventually happen. We have foreseen the current situation, and it doesn't take a genius to see the next logical progession of policy in this area. Governments have a hunger for power and it is never sated. The more it gets, the more it craves. Best regards, MikeG -- - Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 - On 10/2/12, Greg Hupé gmh...@centurylink.net wrote: The more I digest all of the new and clear BLM regs concerning meteorites and their distribution/handling, the more I wonder how that effects those who get meteorites classified that are found on BLM land. As we know, a scientific type sample is REQUIRED in order to get any meteorite classified and approved by the NomCom. In a way, the type sample may be considered 'bartering' in order for the meteorite to be recognized by the meteorite community. There are many American meteorites that are found on BLM land that reside in museums, were they donated with a later tax write-off for the individual finder/donator? Did the museum trade for said meteorite, if so, that is a no-no!! These are just a couple of quick thoughts to provoke the intellectual minds of our scientist and museum curator friends to discuss. Since I serious doubt any BLM main office is going to give us lowly occasional hunters the time of day, maybe our community is better served by those professionals who work with bureaucrats on a daily basis so our thoughts and concerns can be addressed more clearly and not on an Internet forum such as here! The American Meteorite Community: Between a Rock and a Hard Place... Greg __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM Law vs Type Sample
to provoke the intellectual minds.. My intellect is anyway too small for these new rules. Wasn't it so in your country, That until now an Irving, a Bunch, a Wasson, a Garvie and so on... and nobody else, determined a rock to be a meteorite? So in any case, when you go on BLM land, in first instance you will be always collecting rocks there and not meteorites, Therefore these rules do not apply. Or do BLM or FED officers in the field exist, who could tell a chondrite apart from a terrestrial rock or who could identify an achondrite by visual inspection? Could be a field of job creation: Federal Meteorite Ranger! (Ehm... the first US lunar will have a weight of 76 kgs. Do I have to smash the stone in pieces, to harvest year by year the allowed weight limit? Also it's said, that the permit fees could be calculated as a percentage of a fair market value - WHEN will I be charged? Do I have a chance to organize a loan, or do I have to commit suicide, because I simply won't have the percentage of the value of the 76kgs US-lunar at hand? Can I invite laymen to go hunting with me, who don't need a permit, as they aren't commercial dealers? They could transfer ownership of the finds to me in giving the finds as a gift to me, which would be no bartering.) Seems a little bit callow, the whole affair. That the permit fee is a kind of an extra-tax, Phht...it's o.k. Say I, greeting from a country where the taxdues quote fairly exceeds 50%. ;-) Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Greg Hupé Gesendet: Dienstag, 2. Oktober 2012 20:03 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] BLM Law vs Type Sample The more I digest all of the new and clear BLM regs concerning meteorites and their distribution/handling, the more I wonder how that effects those who get meteorites classified that are found on BLM land. As we know, a scientific type sample is REQUIRED in order to get any meteorite classified and approved by the NomCom. In a way, the type sample may be considered 'bartering' in order for the meteorite to be recognized by the meteorite community. There are many American meteorites that are found on BLM land that reside in museums, were they donated with a later tax write-off for the individual finder/donator? Did the museum trade for said meteorite, if so, that is a no-no!! These are just a couple of quick thoughts to provoke the intellectual minds of our scientist and museum curator friends to discuss. Since I serious doubt any BLM main office is going to give us lowly occasional hunters the time of day, maybe our community is better served by those professionals who work with bureaucrats on a daily basis so our thoughts and concerns can be addressed more clearly and not on an Internet forum such as here! The American Meteorite Community: Between a Rock and a Hard Place... Greg __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] BLM Law vs Type Sample
Very amusing (and valid) points, Martin! Nobody likes to be subjected to new rules and restrictions, and it's easy to speculate about the potential pitfalls of the new BLM rules, but I tend to agree with Norm. If the Feds were really viewing meteorite hunters as public enemy number one, they could have already been citing us for any of these offenses (and more) before the new guidelines were even issued. I seriously doubt that the BLM secret police are going to be out in force, strip searching rock hounders on public land and conducting nickel tests on all rocks found in their possession. Let's not get too carried away here, folks. My guess is that this will all soon die down, the BLM will largely forget about us, and things will pretty much go back to the way they were. Of course, I could be wrong It seems to me the people most likely to suffer significant scrutiny and potentially serious consequences are the professional hunters, especially when hunting highly publicized witnessed falls. I don't know what the solution is for that, honestly. Glad I'm just an amateur hunter! Okay, I've donned my asbestos suit, so flame away! ;-) -Doug Ross So in any case, when you go on BLM land, in first instance you will be always collecting rocks there and not meteorites, Therefore these rules do not apply. Or do BLM or FED officers in the field exist, who could tell a chondrite apart from a terrestrial rock or who could identify an achondrite by visual inspection? Could be a field of job creation: Federal Meteorite Ranger! (Ehm... the first US lunar will have a weight of 76 kgs. Do I have to smash the stone in pieces, to harvest year by year the allowed weight limit? Also it's said, that the permit fees could be calculated as a percentage of a fair market value - WHEN will I be charged? Do I have a chance to organize a loan, or do I have to commit suicide, because I simply won't have the percentage of the value of the 76kgs US-lunar at hand? Can I invite laymen to go hunting with me, who don't need a permit, as they aren't commercial dealers? They could transfer ownership of the finds to me in giving the finds as a gift to me, which would be no bartering.) __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
