Re: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel=me self to indicate an authoritative hCard
On Feb 2, 2007, at 2:57 PM, Ara Pehlivanian wrote: On 2/1/07, John Allsopp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: use case - sure - for example, at our conference sites, we markup speakers with hCard, and this often includes a link to their blog etc. In this case, a link to an authoritative (or perhaps, to be even less strict detailed) hCard may be somethign that is very useful. If I understand the spec correctly, since a rel=me is symmetric, shouldn't the hCard you're pointing to also be pointing back? If that's true, then the authoritative hCard will quickly get unmanageable since it will contain tens if not hundreds of reciprocal links to partial hCards (imagine if you're listed in several different locale directories marked up with hCard). You're right, rel=me requires symmetry in order to be trusted at all. For this reason, and others XFN is not the simplest way to do Authoritative hCards. -ryan -- Ryan King [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel=me self to indicate an authoritative hCard
On 2/7/07, Ryan King [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You're right, rel=me requires symmetry in order to be trusted at all. For this reason, and others XFN is not the simplest way to do Authoritative hCards. I guess the real question is, who will be creating the partial hCards that will be referring to the authoritative hCard? If the answer is, the owner of the authoritative hCard then the scenario is manageable and the owner can update the authoritative hCard at their leisure to reflect the partial ones created. However, if the answer is, anyone then the spec is impossible to support because the author of the authoritative hCard has absolutely no way of tracking all of the partial cards referring to the authoritative one. A prime example is if you're a speaker at a conf. and the organizers put together a simple hCard with your name in it and point to your authoritative hCard. Worse still, if a phone directory site marks up their results with hCard, how would you ever know to link to it? Which page would you link to (as results tend to have multiple views). The worst part of either scenario is the idea that your authoritative hCard will keep growing with all this unsightly references to lesser cards. It's a maintenance and aesthetic nightmare. I say we should find a better way of doing this. A. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel=me self to indicate an authoritative hCard
On 2/7/07, Ara Pehlivanian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/7/07, Ryan King [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You're right, rel=me requires symmetry in order to be trusted at all. For this reason, and others XFN is not the simplest way to do Authoritative hCards. I guess the real question is, who will be creating the partial hCards that will be referring to the authoritative hCard? If the answer is, the owner of the authoritative hCard then the scenario is manageable and the owner can update the authoritative hCard at their leisure to reflect the partial ones created. However, if the answer is, anyone then the spec is impossible to support because the author of the authoritative hCard has absolutely no way of tracking all of the partial cards referring to the authoritative one. A prime example is if you're a speaker at a conf. and the organizers put together a simple hCard with your name in it and point to your authoritative hCard. Worse still, if a phone directory site marks up their results with hCard, how would you ever know to link to it? Which page would you link to (as results tend to have multiple views). The worst part of either scenario is the idea that your authoritative hCard will keep growing with all this unsightly references to lesser cards. It's a maintenance and aesthetic nightmare. I think you're missing a stage: - fragment hcard (anywhere on the net by anybody) - points to home page, using class=url - home page, using class=something rel=something-else, points to authoritative hcard e.g. Ryan King hCards in the wild point to http://www.ryanking.com; http://www.ryanking.com (somehow) points to http://www.ryanking.com/contact/ which has his authoritative hCard. At most one back reference is required. Regard, etc... -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel=me self to indicate an authoritative hCard
On 2/7/07, David Janes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think you're missing a stage: - fragment hcard (anywhere on the net by anybody) - points to home page, using class=url - home page, using class=something rel=something-else, points to authoritative hcard e.g. Ryan King hCards in the wild point to http://www.ryanking.com; http://www.ryanking.com (somehow) points to http://www.ryanking.com/contact/ which has his authoritative hCard. At most one back reference is required. Is that the intended use though? Just managing the authoritative hCard within a domain? A. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel=me self to indicate an authoritative hCard
On 2/7/07, Ara Pehlivanian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/7/07, David Janes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think you're missing a stage: - fragment hcard (anywhere on the net by anybody) - points to home page, using class=url - home page, using class=something rel=something-else, points to authoritative hcard e.g. Ryan King hCards in the wild point to http://www.ryanking.com; http://www.ryanking.com (somehow) points to http://www.ryanking.com/contact/ which has his authoritative hCard. At most one back reference is required. Is that the intended use though? Just managing the authoritative hCard within a domain? No, Ryan King could have his authoritative hCard on LinkedIn (hypothetical example). He still, however, refers to himself in his hCards as url=http://www.ryanking.com (real example). -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel=me self to indicate an authoritative hCard
On Feb 7, 2007, Ryan King wrote: 2. We have prior art that is being ignored. Publishers are already using a class=url uid ../a to do this. However, UID is not a field that takes a URL for its value, just a string, so therefore: a class=url uid href=http://ryancannon.com/;Ryan/a Should be parsed as URL: http;//ryancannon.com/ UID: Ryan Right? So while UID seems like the right value to use, according to my reading of the spec, UID has to sit in visible text, and could be any sort of number--like an American social security number or a mobile phone number with country code--both of those are usually globally unique individual identifiers. -- Ryan Cannon Interactive Developer MSI Student, School of Information University of Michigan http://RyanCannon.com ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel=me self to indicate an authoritative hCard
On Feb 7, 2007, at 1:44 PM, Ryan Cannon wrote: On Feb 7, 2007, Ryan King wrote: 2. We have prior art that is being ignored. Publishers are already using a class=url uid ../a to do this. However, UID is not a field that takes a URL for its value, just a string, so therefore: a class=url uid href=http://ryancannon.com/;Ryan/a Should be parsed as URL: http;//ryancannon.com/ UID: Ryan Right? So while UID seems like the right value to use, according to my reading of the spec, UID has to sit in visible text, and could be any sort of number--like an American social security number or a mobile phone number with country code--both of those are usually globally unique individual identifiers. Indeed, in vcard UID is just a string, but my proposal is that we make it by default a URL. It's a simple change (which may already be implemented in X2V). -ryan -- Ryan King [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel=me self to indicate an authoritative hCard
On Feb 2, 2007, at 2:57 PM, Ara Pehlivanian wrote: On 2/1/07, John Allsopp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: use case - sure - for example, at our conference sites, we markup speakers with hCard, and this often includes a link to their blog etc. In this case, a link to an authoritative (or perhaps, to be even less strict detailed) hCard may be somethign that is very useful. If I understand the spec correctly, since a rel=me is symmetric, shouldn't the hCard you're pointing to also be pointing back? If that's true, then the authoritative hCard will quickly get unmanageable since it will contain tens if not hundreds of reciprocal links to partial hCards (imagine if you're listed in several different locale directories marked up with hCard). Indeed, it seems the me attribute from xfn may not be entirely desirable. Is it even needed for a master/authoritative hCards to recognize their children? -Colin ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel=me self to indicate an authoritative hCard
On 2/4/07, Colin Barrett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Indeed, it seems the me attribute from xfn may not be entirely desirable. Is it even needed for a master/authoritative hCards to recognize their children? -Colin I can see a use for it. For example, I'd like to primarily identify myself with a single URI [1]. From that starting point, I could (for example) point to my own hand constructed hCard elsewhere or I could use a professional service, such as LinkedIn. On the authorative hCard, I could then backlink to [1] and this would provide protection against one form (and I know there's many others) of identity hijacking. Regards, etc... [1] http://www.davidjanes.com -- David Janes Founder, BlogMatrix http://www.blogmatrix.com http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel=me self to indicate an authoritative hCard
On Feb 4, 2007, at 2:45 AM, David Janes wrote: On 2/4/07, Colin Barrett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Indeed, it seems the me attribute from xfn may not be entirely desirable. Is it even needed for a master/authoritative hCards to recognize their children? -Colin I can see a use for it. For example, I'd like to primarily identify myself with a single URI [1]. From that starting point, I could (for example) point to my own hand constructed hCard elsewhere or I could use a professional service, such as LinkedIn. On the authorative hCard, I could then backlink to [1] and this would provide protection against one form (and I know there's many others) of identity hijacking. Regards, etc... I should have reworded: Is it necessary for authoritative hCards to recognize ALL their children? It might also be semantically wrong to put rel=me on a link to an hCard that isn't on a site that's your own, anyway. -Colin ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel=me self to indicate an authoritative hCard
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Allsopp [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes me self can't be anything but tautological; nor is it appropriate when referring to third parties. so: in English, it is tautological. But restricting the words to their roles in XFN and Atom, they mean quite different things - so I'd respectfully argue that the construction isn't in this context tautological. for people first ? The third party issue (I take it to mean that you can't refer to an authoritative third party hCard for someone else using m, which is quite correct). I think that's a separate and more complex issue - how, if at all, can you link to an authoritative hCard for someone else. Is there a use case - sure - for example, at our conference sites, we markup speakers with hCard, and this often includes a link to their blog etc. In this case, a link to an authoritative (or perhaps, to be even less strict detailed) hCard may be somethign that is very useful. I think you just answered your own question. -- Andy Mabbett http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/ Welcome to the 30-day week! ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel=me self to indicate an authoritative hCard
Andy, (apologies for the tardiness, I'm in one of those old fashioned, unconnected airomoplanes) me self can't be anything but tautological; nor is it appropriate when referring to third parties. so: in English, it is tautological. But restricting the words to their roles in XFN and Atom, they mean quite different things - so I'd respectfully argue that the construction isn't in this context tautological. The third party issue (I take it to mean that you can't refer to an authoritative third party hCard for someone else using m, which is quite correct). I think that's a separate and more complex issue - how, if at all, can you link to an authoritative hCard for someone else. Is there a use case - sure - for example, at our conference sites, we markup speakers with hCard, and this often includes a link to their blog etc. In this case, a link to an authoritative (or perhaps, to be even less strict detailed) hCard may be somethign that is very useful. -1 but isn't this sort of voting better done on the wiki than in a mailing list? rough consensus - many more people see this mailing list regularly than visit the wiki frequently (I'd suggest) so for gaining a sense of rough consensus in a shortish timeframe (my original +1 was informal) the mailing list does seem to me to be an appropriate location for such straw polls. j ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] Vote on this: rel=me self to indicate an authoritative hCard
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ben Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I was initially going to argue that self me was tautological, but in fact, in this sense it is not, and indeed, the addition of bookmark is probably tautological. So, I'd probably +1 this suggestion, […] +1 from me as well. Can we gauge wider support for this addition? Any problems from anyone? me self can't be anything but tautological; nor is it appropriate when referring to third parties. so: -1 but isn't this sort of voting better done on the wiki than in a mailing list? -- Andy Mabbett http://www.pigsonthewing.org.uk/uFsig/ Welcome to the 28-day week! ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
