Re: [uf-discuss] schema.org, microformats.org, hRecipe

2011-07-27 Thread Ted Drake
I just want to remind people that Thomas was an unsung hero that worked his
ass off to get the hrecipe format into a workable format. He collaborated
with the Food Network and together they were able to publish the
microformat.

I remember coming across an issue with the hreview on Yahoo! Tech around
2006. It wasn't specifically itemscope, rather the desire to reference
content from another section of the page. For example, we had various
hreviews on a product page, but we had trouble referencing the product name
without including it within each review's container.

Itemscope wasn't an option at that time and I don't think it would have
solved the issue. We tried to reference the product name but ended up adding
the product name to each review via a hidden element. It was an ugly
solution, but better than having thousands of reviews for anonymous
products. 

That being said, I do believe people would have used itemscope if it was
available from the beginning of microformats. But hindsight is 20/20.


Ted



On 7/1/11 2:14 PM, "thomas lörtsch"  wrote:

> Tantek,
> 
> since you already contributed to this thread, would you care to comment on my
> original question? Or can you point me to a wiki page where it is answered
> already? Besides browsing through the microformats.org site I also
> fulltext-searched it for "Google" but couldn't find anything relevant wrt my
> initial question (see the first mail in this thread). Which is odd.
> 
> Cheers
> Thomas
> 
> PS: And can you elaborate (or point me to a wiki page) how email archives on
> the web are "NOT" discoverable?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 30, 2011, at 8:51 PM, Tantek Çelik wrote:
> 
>> The point is to capture specific issues rather than have a "discussion" - a
>> discussion where nothing is recorded on the wiki is nearly worthless and may
>> as well have not happened.
>> 
>> If it doesn't get captured on a discoverable URL, it might as well not exist
>> (and no, email archives are NOT discoverable).
>> 
>> 
>> I don't remember anyone asking for anything like itemscope in microformats.
>> 
>> 
>> This list or IRC (preferably) is a good place to start with questions, but if
>> there is an answer it should be captured by the author in an FAQ either
>> specific to a microformat *-faq page, or in general on:
>> 
>> http://microformats.org/wiki/faq
>> 
>> 
>> If there is a specific known issue to report for a specific microformat, add
>> it to the *-issues page for that microformat.
>> 
>> 
>> If there is a specific known issue that applies to several microformats (eg
>> class microformats) add it to:
>> 
>> http://microformats.org/wiki/issues
>> 
>> 
>> The goal is to *minimize* thrash / going in circles on email (a common
>> problem in standards related communities), and instead to capture and grow
>> our collective knowledge and understanding on the wiki.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Tantek
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: thomas lörtsch 
>> Sender: microformats-discuss-boun...@microformats.org
>> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 16:24:40
>> To: Microformats Discuss
>> Reply-To: Microformats Discuss 
>> Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] schema.org, microformats.org, hRecipe
>> 
>> 
>> On Jun 29, 2011, at 5:05 PM, Stephen Paul Weber wrote:
>>> 
>>> I remember the itemscope thing coming up.  Consensus seemed to be that is
>>> solved by root class names, but that was so long ago I forget.  I assume
>>> that people created wiki pages documenting this?  If not, why not?
>>> Microformats.org is a wiki first, and the mailing lists and IRC just
>>> facilitate the wiki.  IMHO, if it's not documented on the wiki, then it's
>>> just a discussion.
>> 
>> Well, "just a discussion" wouldn't be a bad start. Or do you suggest that I
>> open a wiki page on my question?
>> 
>> Thomas
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> °|´ < in pursuit of the gestalt of it all />
>> ^^^
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> microformats-discuss mailing list
>> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
>> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
>> 
>> ___
>> microformats-discuss mailing list
>> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
>> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> °|´ < in pursuit of the gestalt of it all />
> ^^^
> 
> 
> ___
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


Re: [uf-discuss] schema.org, microformats.org, hRecipe

2011-07-06 Thread Tantek Çelik
2011/7/1 thomas lörtsch :
> Tantek,
>
> since you already contributed to this thread, would you care to comment on my 
> original question? Or can you point me to a wiki page where it is answered 
> already?

Ok will do.


> Besides browsing through the microformats.org site I also fulltext-searched 
> it for "Google" but couldn't find anything relevant wrt my initial question 
> (see the first mail in this thread). Which is odd.

Indeed.


> PS: And can you elaborate (or point me to a wiki page) how email archives on 
> the web are "NOT" discoverable?

See above where you wrote:

"fulltext-searched it for "Google" but couldn't find anything relevant
wrt my initial question (see the first mail in this thread). Which is
odd."

Your statement demonstrates my point about how email archives on the
web are "NOT" discoverable.


Now, as to your specific questions:

2011/6/29 thomas lörtsch :
> Hi all,
>
> I don't want to discuss the schema.org effort in general here, although there 
> surely is a lot to discuss about it.

I've got about a half-dozen or so blog posts in progress strongly
critiquing and debunking schema.org as an effort - there are so many
things wrong with it that it's taking me a while to collect / itemize
them all. I'm also trying to focus my longer analyses on what to do
right rather than what schema.org has done wrong. E.g.:

http://tantek.com/2011/168/b1/practices-good-open-web-standards-development

If you want to discuss/critique schema.org in particular, check out:

irc://irc.freenode.net/schema where the minutes for the SemTech meetup
were taken.


> My question is how collaboration between Google.com and microformats.org is 
> organized, where it's taking place,

In short: on the wiki, irc channel, and a little on the *-discuss and
*-new mailing lists, like with anybody else.


> who is involved.

The SemTech transcript mentioned both hReview-aggregate and hRecipe as
you quoted.

If you google for both of those:

hReview-aggregate - first result:

http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview-aggregate

which says right at the top:

"Editor
Kavi Goel, Google."

and:

"Authors/Contributers (alphabetical)
...
Othar Hansson, Google "


hRecipe - first result:

http://microformats.org/wiki/hrecipe

Searching that page for "Google" you quickly find:

Google. Launched 24th February, 2011, Recipe View search results from
Google are powered by hRecipe marked-up snippets.

where Recipe View links to:

http://www.google.com/landing/recipes/

which doesn't say who specifically is involved.


Googling for:

hrecipe google

3rd result is:

http://microformats.org/2011/02/24/google-launches-microformat-powered-recipe-search

wherein the 2nd link is:

http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/slice-and-dice-your-recipe-search.html

which if you read to the end of the post is:

"Posted by Kavi Goel, Product Manager"


> I'm sure there is and has always been some informal exchange,

Actually I personally try to minimize informal person-to-person
exchanges regarding microformats as they doesn't scale well for the
community.

Kavi has contacted me personally in the past and I've done my best to
direct him to ask his questions etc. on the IRC channel and document
his research / requirements / brainstorms publicly on the wiki,
emphasizing that it's ok to have incomplete/partial work on the wiki
while figuring things out.


> since people happen to know each other, meet at confernces or other events 
> etc,

Those are all true of course. However even in those cases, it's best
to have those discussion in open areas such as the IRC channel or the
wiki for everyone's benefit.


> and of course that's fine with me.

That's generous of you, however I do think it is reasonable to request
that folks in the microformats community prefer community forums (IRC,
wiki, mailing list if necessary) to private one-on-one or small group
interactions (with perhaps the one exception of just wanting to bounce
crazy/uncertain/raw ideas off of friends to sanity-check them before
sharing more widely/publicly).


> I was wondering though when I read the following statement in a transcript of 
> the Schema.org BOF at SemTech 2011 
> :
>
>> [...]
>> Kevin Marks: Microformats says have a discussion first. You did that with 
>> hRecipe, so I'm surprsed to see you didnt go through that here. That'a the 
>> difference in phsilophy
>> Tantek Çelik: Google (Kavi in particular!) successfully worked with the open 
>> community on both hReview-aggregate and hRecipe - openly.
>> [...]
>> Kevin Marks: hRecipe was a great example of how Google can do this.
>> [...]
>
>
> This sounds like quite some conversations, discussions and thorough work. Now 
> I wonder: how specifically did that "great" and "successfull" work "with the 
> open community" go? Where did it take place?

On the wiki (as documented above) and mailing lists.

A simple microformats.org site-specific search of Kavi Goel gives you plen

Re: [uf-discuss] schema.org, microformats.org, hRecipe

2011-07-01 Thread thomas lörtsch
Tantek,

since you already contributed to this thread, would you care to comment on my 
original question? Or can you point me to a wiki page where it is answered 
already? Besides browsing through the microformats.org site I also 
fulltext-searched it for "Google" but couldn't find anything relevant wrt my 
initial question (see the first mail in this thread). Which is odd.

Cheers
Thomas

PS: And can you elaborate (or point me to a wiki page) how email archives on 
the web are "NOT" discoverable?




On Jun 30, 2011, at 8:51 PM, Tantek Çelik wrote:

> The point is to capture specific issues rather than have a "discussion" - a 
> discussion where nothing is recorded on the wiki is nearly worthless and may 
> as well have not happened. 
> 
> If it doesn't get captured on a discoverable URL, it might as well not exist 
> (and no, email archives are NOT discoverable).
> 
> 
> I don't remember anyone asking for anything like itemscope in microformats.
> 
> 
> This list or IRC (preferably) is a good place to start with questions, but if 
> there is an answer it should be captured by the author in an FAQ either 
> specific to a microformat *-faq page, or in general on:
> 
> http://microformats.org/wiki/faq
> 
> 
> If there is a specific known issue to report for a specific microformat, add 
> it to the *-issues page for that microformat.
> 
> 
> If there is a specific known issue that applies to several microformats (eg 
> class microformats) add it to:
> 
> http://microformats.org/wiki/issues
> 
> 
> The goal is to *minimize* thrash / going in circles on email (a common 
> problem in standards related communities), and instead to capture and grow 
> our collective knowledge and understanding on the wiki.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Tantek
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: thomas lörtsch 
> Sender: microformats-discuss-boun...@microformats.org
> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 16:24:40 
> To: Microformats Discuss
> Reply-To: Microformats Discuss 
> Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] schema.org, microformats.org, hRecipe
> 
> 
> On Jun 29, 2011, at 5:05 PM, Stephen Paul Weber wrote:
>> 
>> I remember the itemscope thing coming up.  Consensus seemed to be that is 
>> solved by root class names, but that was so long ago I forget.  I assume 
>> that people created wiki pages documenting this?  If not, why not?  
>> Microformats.org is a wiki first, and the mailing lists and IRC just 
>> facilitate the wiki.  IMHO, if it's not documented on the wiki, then it's 
>> just a discussion.
> 
> Well, "just a discussion" wouldn't be a bad start. Or do you suggest that I 
> open a wiki page on my question? 
> 
> Thomas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> °|´ < in pursuit of the gestalt of it all />
> ^^^
> 
> 
> ___
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
> 
> ___
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss






°|´ < in pursuit of the gestalt of it all />
^^^


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


Document your work discoverably on the web or don't bother. Was Re: [uf-discuss] schema.org, microformats.org, hRecipe

2011-06-30 Thread Tantek Çelik
Derrick,

If something was "brought up on a regular basis by newcomers", provide the 
URLs, otherwise we are right to dismiss your assertion.

No one was "driven out". We've had to ban a few trolls for negative behaviors 
for fixed periods of time, but haven't had to do any such thing for over a year 
(maybe 2) now.

If you had "actual parsing uses-cases for such a feature as well as publishing 
use-cases", at what URL did you document them?

If you consider requiring documentation on the web/wiki and being rigorous as 
"elitism of uf.org" then, yes, you're not going to be very productive.

And you're right, developing microformats is not for everyone - only those that 
are willing to document their work and be scientific in their methods. If you 
consider "science" to be a cabal, then you're not going to find much sympathy 
and should take your name-calling elsewhere.

Document your work on discoverable URLs (preferably on the wiki) or don't 
bother complaining.

Tantek

-Original Message-
From: Derrick Pallas 
Sender: microformats-discuss-boun...@microformats.org
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 07:33:52 
To: Microformats Discuss
Reply-To: Microformats Discuss 
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] schema.org, microformats.org, hRecipe

Notice that they have an itemscope in HTML5, something many people 
talked about on microformats.org for years. A few years ago it was 
brought up on a regular basis by newcomers, about twice a year; said 
newcomers were then driven out of the community. So there was 
discussion, just not very nice nor very productive. When I worked for 
Alexa, I had actual parsing uses-cases for such a feature as well as 
publishing use-cases and I was one of those newcomers, not the first and 
not the last. Not everyone tried to follow the process but I did, to the 
same end. After everything, the elitism of uf.org turned me off to the 
whole effort. That's not to say uf.org isn't full of nice, intelligent 
people — it is — just that I decided not to waste my time trying to be 
in the cabal. And this email is not intended to beat a dead horse, just 
to share my own experiences. ~D


On 6/29/2011 2:55 AM, thomas lörtsch wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I don't want to discuss the schema.org effort in general here, although there 
> surely is a lot to discuss about it. My question is how collaboration between 
> Google.com and microformats.org is organized, where it's taking place, who is 
> involved. I'm sure there is and has always been some informal exchange, since 
> people happen to know each other, meet at confernces or other events etc, and 
> of course that's fine with me. I was wondering though when I read the 
> following statement in a transcript of the Schema.org BOF at SemTech 
> 2011<http://www.w3.org/2011/06/semtech-bof-notes.html>:
>
>> [...]
>> Kevin Marks: Microformats says have a discussion first. You did that with 
>> hRecipe, so I'm surprsed to see you didnt go through that here. That'a the 
>> difference in phsilophy
>> Tantek Çelik: Google (Kavi in particular!) successfully worked with the open 
>> community on both hReview-aggregate and hRecipe - openly.
>> [...]
>> Kevin Marks: hRecipe was a great example of how Google can do this.
>> [...]
>
> This sounds like quite some conversations, discussions and thorough work. Now 
> I wonder: how specifically did that "great" and "successfull" work "with the 
> open community" go? Where did it take place? Who was involved? And what 
> exactly was worked out?
> I won't hesitate to admit that I wasn't a very good editor of hRecipe since 
> summer 2009 but I still am the editor as indicated on the hRecipe wikipage. I 
> wasn't contacted by anyone regarding Rich Snippets, Schema.org or any other 
> Google activity. Also I couldn't find any mention on the mailinglists or on 
> the wiki. So, please: what's going on, what did I miss? Or how is this "open"?
>
> Since Schema.org now promotes a recipe vocabulary that is slightly different 
> from hRecipe and also more elaborated I would like to discuss what to do 
> about that: maybe analyze the differences, observe uptake, then align hRecipe 
> where appropriate etc. But before I start to work on that I'd like to 
> understand what happened until now.
>
> Cheers,
> Thomas Lörtsch
>
>
>
> °|´<  in pursuit of the gestalt of it all />
> ^^^
>
>
>___
> microformats-discuss mailing list
> microformats-discuss@microformats.org
> http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


Re: [uf-discuss] schema.org, microformats.org, hRecipe

2011-06-30 Thread Tantek Çelik
The point is to capture specific issues rather than have a "discussion" - a 
discussion where nothing is recorded on the wiki is nearly worthless and may as 
well have not happened. 

If it doesn't get captured on a discoverable URL, it might as well not exist 
(and no, email archives are NOT discoverable).


I don't remember anyone asking for anything like itemscope in microformats.


This list or IRC (preferably) is a good place to start with questions, but if 
there is an answer it should be captured by the author in an FAQ either 
specific to a microformat *-faq page, or in general on:

http://microformats.org/wiki/faq


If there is a specific known issue to report for a specific microformat, add it 
to the *-issues page for that microformat.


If there is a specific known issue that applies to several microformats (eg 
class microformats) add it to:

http://microformats.org/wiki/issues


The goal is to *minimize* thrash / going in circles on email (a common problem 
in standards related communities), and instead to capture and grow our 
collective knowledge and understanding on the wiki.

Thanks,

Tantek

-Original Message-
From: thomas lörtsch 
Sender: microformats-discuss-boun...@microformats.org
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 16:24:40 
To: Microformats Discuss
Reply-To: Microformats Discuss 
Subject: Re: [uf-discuss] schema.org, microformats.org, hRecipe


On Jun 29, 2011, at 5:05 PM, Stephen Paul Weber wrote:
> 
> I remember the itemscope thing coming up.  Consensus seemed to be that is 
> solved by root class names, but that was so long ago I forget.  I assume that 
> people created wiki pages documenting this?  If not, why not?  
> Microformats.org is a wiki first, and the mailing lists and IRC just 
> facilitate the wiki.  IMHO, if it's not documented on the wiki, then it's 
> just a discussion.

Well, "just a discussion" wouldn't be a bad start. Or do you suggest that I 
open a wiki page on my question? 

Thomas




°|´ < in pursuit of the gestalt of it all />
^^^


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss

___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


Re: [uf-discuss] schema.org, microformats.org, hRecipe

2011-06-30 Thread thomas lörtsch

On Jun 29, 2011, at 5:05 PM, Stephen Paul Weber wrote:
> 
> I remember the itemscope thing coming up.  Consensus seemed to be that is 
> solved by root class names, but that was so long ago I forget.  I assume that 
> people created wiki pages documenting this?  If not, why not?  
> Microformats.org is a wiki first, and the mailing lists and IRC just 
> facilitate the wiki.  IMHO, if it's not documented on the wiki, then it's 
> just a discussion.

Well, "just a discussion" wouldn't be a bad start. Or do you suggest that I 
open a wiki page on my question? 

Thomas




°|´ < in pursuit of the gestalt of it all />
^^^


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


Re: [uf-discuss] schema.org, microformats.org, hRecipe

2011-06-29 Thread Stephen Paul Weber

Somebody claiming to be Derrick Pallas wrote:
Notice that they have an itemscope in HTML5, something many people 
talked about on microformats.org for years. A few years ago it was 
brought up on a regular basis by newcomers, about twice a year; said 
newcomers were then driven out of the community.


You still seem to be here :)

I remember the itemscope thing coming up.  Consensus seemed to be that is 
solved by root class names, but that was so long ago I forget.  I assume 
that people created wiki pages documenting this?  If not, why not?  
Microformats.org is a wiki first, and the mailing lists and IRC just 
facilitate the wiki.  IMHO, if it's not documented on the wiki, then it's 
just a discussion.


Anyway :)

--
Stephen Paul Weber, @singpolyma
See  for how I prefer to be contacted
edition right joseph
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


Re: [uf-discuss] schema.org, microformats.org, hRecipe

2011-06-29 Thread Derrick Pallas
Notice that they have an itemscope in HTML5, something many people 
talked about on microformats.org for years. A few years ago it was 
brought up on a regular basis by newcomers, about twice a year; said 
newcomers were then driven out of the community. So there was 
discussion, just not very nice nor very productive. When I worked for 
Alexa, I had actual parsing uses-cases for such a feature as well as 
publishing use-cases and I was one of those newcomers, not the first and 
not the last. Not everyone tried to follow the process but I did, to the 
same end. After everything, the elitism of uf.org turned me off to the 
whole effort. That's not to say uf.org isn't full of nice, intelligent 
people — it is — just that I decided not to waste my time trying to be 
in the cabal. And this email is not intended to beat a dead horse, just 
to share my own experiences. ~D



On 6/29/2011 2:55 AM, thomas lörtsch wrote:

Hi all,

I don't want to discuss the schema.org effort in general here, although there surely 
is a lot to discuss about it. My question is how collaboration between Google.com and 
microformats.org is organized, where it's taking place, who is involved. I'm sure 
there is and has always been some informal exchange, since people happen to know each 
other, meet at confernces or other events etc, and of course that's fine with me. I 
was wondering though when I read the following statement in a transcript of the 
Schema.org BOF at SemTech 
2011:


[...]
Kevin Marks: Microformats says have a discussion first. You did that with 
hRecipe, so I'm surprsed to see you didnt go through that here. That'a the 
difference in phsilophy
Tantek Çelik: Google (Kavi in particular!) successfully worked with the open 
community on both hReview-aggregate and hRecipe - openly.
[...]
Kevin Marks: hRecipe was a great example of how Google can do this.
[...]


This sounds like quite some conversations, discussions and thorough work. Now I wonder: how specifically did 
that "great" and "successfull" work "with the open community" go? Where did it 
take place? Who was involved? And what exactly was worked out?
I won't hesitate to admit that I wasn't a very good editor of hRecipe since summer 2009 
but I still am the editor as indicated on the hRecipe wikipage. I wasn't contacted by 
anyone regarding Rich Snippets, Schema.org or any other Google activity. Also I couldn't 
find any mention on the mailinglists or on the wiki. So, please: what's going on, what 
did I miss? Or how is this "open"?

Since Schema.org now promotes a recipe vocabulary that is slightly different 
from hRecipe and also more elaborated I would like to discuss what to do about 
that: maybe analyze the differences, observe uptake, then align hRecipe where 
appropriate etc. But before I start to work on that I'd like to understand what 
happened until now.

Cheers,
Thomas Lörtsch



°|´<  in pursuit of the gestalt of it all />
^^^


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss


___
microformats-discuss mailing list
microformats-discuss@microformats.org
http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss