[uf-new] Re: hTurtle: A GRDDL-Compatible Microformat for Turtle-in-HTML

2007-11-04 Thread Sean B. Palmer
Tantek Çelik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 1. Invisible data.  The data in comments is invisible.

Oh dear. You should tell that to whoever wrote this section:

http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/scripts.html#h-18.3.2

It's not invisible to the XML Infoset, or the DOM, or SAX parsers, or
XSLT, or regular expressions, or so on, which is how hTurtle is able
to meet its requirements.

hTurtle's requirements mightn't align with those stated in The
Process, of course. See my message to Scott for more about that.

(I've been told that data is a plural, incidentally!)

 2. Comment hack.  Comments and their contents aren't markup.

What about QNames in attribute values? If I'd been using an SGML
NOTATION section or something then I'd understand your concern—or The
Process's concern.

Masahide Kanzaki has one of my favourite examples of exploiting the
joy of comments:

http://www.kanzaki.com/parts/xsltdoc.xsl

I agree that it's a crap way to do it in HTML, but then that's
grafting arms onto the HTML hamburger for you.

 3. Violating DRY.

Okay, this is a point that I utterly concede. It's absolutely stupid
to have to repeat the information, and that's a poor demonstration of
hTurtle. I couldn't think of anything else that was as simple and yet
shows clearly what it does.

In actual use one might be providing a machine readable form of say
prose describing the model of an RDF Schema. Of course you can go from
the RDF to the HTML rather than embedding the RDF in the HTML, but I'm
not saying that hTurtle is an especially good idea as a format. It
does, speaking from an engineering point of view, work, however. You
get triples from it.

 4. Premature naming. DO NOT start with even labeling your
 effort hXYZ. This is a very common mistake.

I think I addressed this in my reply to Scott. Please let me know if I didn't.

When someone pointed out that I'd got replies on microformats-new,
they did it by saying you've awoken the Tantek!, which I think is
coded speak for you've elicited a rare reply from a supreme honcho. I
still owe you a big one for your forgiveness after I tore the design
of your weblog a new ass when in fact you were just adapting common
designs to be standards compliant.

So now I owe you two big ones.

-- 
Sean B. Palmer, http://inamidst.com/sbp/

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Re: [uf-new] Re: hTurtle: A GRDDL-Compatible Microformat for Turtle-in-HTML

2007-11-04 Thread Scott Reynen

On Nov 4, 2007, at 2:41 PM, Sean B. Palmer wrote:


1. Invisible data.  The data in comments is invisible.


It's not invisible to the XML Infoset, or the DOM, or SAX parsers, or
XSLT, or regular expressions, or so on, which is how hTurtle is able
to meet its requirements.


No, it's invisible to people, and focusing on data that's *visible* to  
people is a (maybe *the*) distinguishing characteristic of  
microformats.  That's what people in this community mean when we say  
microformat, so coming here and using that term meaning something  
completely different is like going to China and speaking to everyone  
in English.  There's little to be gained from this, and much to be lost.


--
Scott Reynen
MakeDataMakeSense.com


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Re: [uf-new] Re: hTurtle: A GRDDL-Compatible Microformat for Turtle-in-HTML

2007-11-04 Thread Manu Sporny
André Luís wrote:
 From what Sean is describing, if people wanted to display the
 information in the turtle/rdf format to normal users, they would have
 to write it twice in different languages. POSH and then hTurtle. See?
 Just there, I wasn't able to put hturtle and POSH in the same sack...
 
 Now, I don't mean to say there's no point in hTurtle. There is, I'm
 just not sure it fits in the microformats group. Can't we have
 something in between ufs and pure rdf?

There already is something between uFs and pure RDF:

RDFa
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-rdfa-primer/

Although, marking up Turtle using RDFa is a bit pedantic... :)

Just curious... why didn't you use RDFa to do this, Sean? Scott and the
rest on this thread are correct - what you have isn't a microformat as
this community understands the term, it's something else... for what
that's worth.

What exactly is the use case behind hTurtle? What are you attempting to
accomplish? There are so few in this world that understand the concept
of N3, triples and RDF that I wonder how many people have the need for
hTurtle?

curiously,

-- manu

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