new_guy wrote:
Marco S Hyman wrote:
Brad Tilley writes:
performed from the OpenBSD 4.2 install CD. I'll send it to the one
'ISO Certified' company that agreed to examine it. If they cannot
You keep throwing around the 'ISO Certified' tag as if it had some
special meaning.
2008/1/6, Eric Furman [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
On Sat, 5 Jan 2008 14:25:37 +1100, Sunnz [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Just create a file and filling it with /dev/zero until it takes up all
the free spaces, then rm -P that file.
But from his original post he wants to make sure everything is cleanly
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Jon [EMAIL PROTECTED], OpenBSD Misc misc@openbsd.org
Subject: Re: delete deleted data
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 21:13:42 +1100
Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2008/1/6, Eric Furman [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
On Sat, 5 Jan 2008 14:25:37 +1100, Sunnz [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Just create
2008/1/6, scott [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Notwithstanding the mentioned 5% issue, in context and for the purposes
of secure wipes, is it not better to use
/dev/arandom (or /dev/srandom) vs. /dev/zero
as in
dd if=/dev/arandom ...
/S
Well rm -P is going to overwrite the file 3 times anyway
Are you willing to share the names of those programs ?
Kind regards
Kasper
L wrote:
Just FYI about security of deleted data..
I purchase used computers for parts every so often. Many of them have
working hard drives in them.
For fun, I analyze the hard drive out and see what I can find..
On 04/01/2008, at 8:19 AM, Brad Tilley wrote:
One pass from /dev/zero is more than enough for all cases.
I agree that after a single pass of zeroes, getting anything but
zeroes from a fully working, unaltered drive is not going to happen.
But if you remove the digital logic which masks
On 04/01/2008, at 12:21 PM, Harpalus a Como wrote:
Myth? Why are you so upset about this? It's not myth.
The techniques involved in recovering data in the manner Marco and
the NSA,
DoD, and many others describe isn't a matter of running a simple
software
tool. It's a long, slow, annoying
Okay, someone touched on this so I'll follow it a little further.
Say you pull the platter(s) out of the drive and now start analysing the
data as analog voltage levels and not highs/lows with threshold. Also,
get the data off the platter(s) by driving a head across it in different
It was shareware/trialware and I am looking for the name of it...
usually it is right on my Wiki when I make notes.. but I can't find it
there yet.
L505
Kasper Revsbech wrote:
Are you willing to share the names of those programs ?
Kind regards
Kasper
L wrote:
One thing I found was that
On 06/01/2008, at 1:57 AM, Diana Eichert wrote:
Any EE worth their weight in salt understands signal processing. I
do believe a lot of younger engineers have grown up in the 1 0
digital world and forget about analog.
I think the first computers I witnessed in a work place, were actually
On Sun, 6 Jan 2008, Shane J Pearson wrote:
SNIP
Where a mix of humans, transistors, valves, gears and three-phase
motors/sensors, got the job done.;-)
Shane
No coal and steam?
I had to say it.
diana
On Jan 5, 2008, at 8:06 AM, Shane J Pearson wrote:
I think the first computers I witnessed in a work place, were
actually analog computers (Navy).
Where a mix of humans, transistors, valves, gears and three-phase
motors/sensors, got the job done.;-)
They're still in use as of the
On Saturday 05 January 2008 09:57:54 Diana Eichert wrote:
Okay, someone touched on this so I'll follow it a little further.
Say you pull the platter(s) out of the drive and now start analysing the
data as analog voltage levels and not highs/lows with threshold. Also,
get the data off the
Unix Fan wrote:
L wrote:
Restoring files from FAT partitions is easy.. I use fatback(http://sf.net/projects/fatback)...
I will check that one out..
But either way, no such utility exists to restore data that has been overwritten..
regardless of the algorithms used.
Unless
L wrote:
Unix Fan wrote:
But either way, no such utility exists to restore data that has been
overwritten.. regardless of the algorithms used.
Unless there was a magnetic offline hardware utility of some sort that
scanned magnetic fields?
On Sat, Jan 05, 2008 at 12:09:08PM -0700, Diana Eichert wrote:
On Sun, 6 Jan 2008, Shane J Pearson wrote:
SNIP
Where a mix of humans, transistors, valves, gears and three-phase
motors/sensors, got the job done.;-)
Shane
No coal and steam?
I had to say it.
What do you think
On Sat, 5 Jan 2008 14:25:37 +1100, Sunnz [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
2008/1/5, Jon [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
rm -P wont work... I looking to clean up deleted data ... not securely
delete a file.
Just create a file and filling it with /dev/zero until it takes up all
the free spaces, then rm -P
In gmane.os.openbsd.misc, you wrote:
I'll put up a website with all the details and pictures... I'll call
it 'Put Up Or Shut Up' Anyone who wants a crack at recovering data
from the drive may do so (as long as they pay the shipping charges
both ways). If they can name one file that
On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 02:56:12AM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In gmane.os.openbsd.misc, you wrote:
I'll put up a website with all the details and pictures... I'll call
it 'Put Up Or Shut Up' Anyone who wants a crack at recovering data
from the drive may do so (as long as they
On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 20:35:11 -0500, Douglas A. Tutty
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 04:08:08PM -0800, Marco S Hyman wrote:
As for disk destruction... I don't know nor pretend to know what can
and can not be recovered. Take a look at
On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 20:21:27 -0500, Harpalus a Como
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Myth? Why are you so upset about this? It's not myth.
The techniques involved in recovering data in the manner Marco and the
NSA,
DoD, and many others describe isn't a matter of running a simple software
tool. It's a
Just a little point. Sometimes precautions are taken
not so much for the sake of what can be done today but
what someone might figure out how to do in the future.
I am not an engineer, but the explanation that I have
heard of how data is read from a wiped drive sounds
plausable (if not possible)
Greg Thomas wrote:
Myth?
Have you read this:
http://www.nber.org/sys-admin/overwritten-data-guttman.html?
You still haven't convinced me as to why I should believe a tax
analyst's rebuttal to a data security analyst's paper. Feenberg has no
expertise in this area, and Gutmann does.
On 1/4/08 3:03 AM, Greg Thomas wrote:
On Jan 3, 2008 5:21 PM, Harpalus a Como [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Myth?
Have you read this:
http://www.nber.org/sys-admin/overwritten-data-guttman.html?
Why are you so upset about this?
Myth's that compel people to waste time and energy should be
On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 11:22:16AM +0100, Otto Moerbeek wrote:
I can do two more: . and ..
Damn. Split it with you 3 ways... :)
-Toby.
--
[100~Plax]sb16i0A2172656B63616820636420726568746F6E61207473754A[dZ1!=b]salax
If you never write cleartext, there is nothing to recover.
http://dlock.com.tw/
Kevin
(P.S. I might be a satisfied dLock customer, if only they'd make it
easier to buy their product!)
Just FYI about security of deleted data..
I purchase used computers for parts every so often. Many of them have
working hard drives in them.
For fun, I analyze the hard drive out and see what I can find.. just as
a little game of mine.
When I run my undelete/recovery tools on them I can
Ok.. well seeing how I got 2 usefull responses after some 30 emails
with most others just randomly emailing _crap_ I decided to search the
web based on the suggestions from Hannah. (the first responder)
I think I am going to try working with THC-SecureDelete
On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 03:55:41PM -0800, Jon wrote:
Ok.. well seeing how I got 2 usefull responses after some 30 emails
with most others just randomly emailing _crap_ I decided to search the
web based on the suggestions from Hannah. (the first responder)
I think I am going to try working
On Jan 4, 2008 3:55 PM, Jon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ok.. well seeing how I got 2 usefull responses after some 30 emails
with most others just randomly emailing _crap_ I decided to search the
web based on the suggestions from Hannah. (the first responder)
I think I am going to try working
rm -P wont work... I looking to clean up deleted data ... not securely
delete a file.
On Jan 4, 2008 5:45 PM, Ted Unangst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Jan 4, 2008 3:55 PM, Jon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ok.. well seeing how I got 2 usefull responses after some 30 emails
with most others just
2008/1/5, Jon [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
rm -P wont work... I looking to clean up deleted data ... not securely
delete a file.
Just create a file and filling it with /dev/zero until it takes up all
the free spaces, then rm -P that file.
Or just use an encrypted file system next time you set up an
On 1/4/08, Jon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
rm -P wont work... I looking to clean up deleted data ... not securely
delete a file.
i was curious how they do this, but it's nothing fancier than creating
a big file and filling it up. i notice that they are using the magic
guttman incantation. i am
Marco Peereboom wrote:
bullshit.
I decided to put my money where my mouth is :)
I bought a 80GB, Western Digital IDE hard drive. $60 USD. Attached it to a
Windows XP laptop (usb-ide bridge), initialized it, created one (1) primary
partition, formatted it NTFS and copied an older subversion
On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 11:55:16 -0800 (PST), new_guy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
said:
Marco Peereboom wrote:
bullshit.
I decided to put my money where my mouth is :)
I bought a 80GB, Western Digital IDE hard drive. $60 USD. Attached it to
a
Windows XP laptop (usb-ide bridge), initialized it,
I'm sorry Marco, but I think what you've said is bullshit, as well contacted
several so called data recovery organizations, after admitting to have
zeroed the drive contents - They said recovery wasn't possible..
While it might be possible to get miscellaneous data off of a drive, it would
It can't be done. it's an urban legend, AFAICT.
Yes I know. That's the whole point of this. It would have been better
to donate a 100 bucks to OpenBSD. I'm just fed-up with the stupid
drivel about needing to burn, grind, overwrite, and nuke drives... and
even after all of that there's still a
On Jan 3, 2008 3:35 PM, Marco Peereboom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Great. The companies I worked with charged $500 per megabyte. I am
sure you'll spend that to prove whatever point you are trying to make.
Free analysis. I pay shipping. The drive cost 60 bucks. I'll probably
have a total of 100
On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, Brad Tilley wrote:
SNIP
and nuking drives is *required*... it's silly and wasteful. One pass
from /dev/zero is more than enough for all cases.
HaHaHa, I wish my day job employer would let me take the drugs you're on.
diana
Marco S Hyman wrote:
Brad Tilley writes:
performed from the OpenBSD 4.2 install CD. I'll send it to the one
'ISO Certified' company that agreed to examine it. If they cannot
You keep throwing around the 'ISO Certified' tag as if it had some
special meaning. Certified to what
Myth? Why are you so upset about this? It's not myth.
The techniques involved in recovering data in the manner Marco and the NSA,
DoD, and many others describe isn't a matter of running a simple software
tool. It's a long, slow, annoying process that is also costly. But it is
possible. Not every
On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 04:08:08PM -0800, Marco S Hyman wrote:
As for disk destruction... I don't know nor pretend to know what can
and can not be recovered. Take a look at
On Jan 3, 2008 5:21 PM, Harpalus a Como [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Myth?
Have you read this:
http://www.nber.org/sys-admin/overwritten-data-guttman.html?
Why are you so upset about this?
Myth's that compel people to waste time and energy should be destroyed.
It's not myth.
Have you read this
new_guy wrote:
I'm working on putting a website up now where I'll fully disclose the
details. Lots of pictures and details. I will attribute the dd used to
OpenBSD (the best OS on the planet bar none... although the dd on the
install CD did not support the conv option... I would have liked
On 3 Jan 2008 18:55:14 -0800, Unix Fan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
(I like the Put Up or Shut Up slogan as well!!)
The problem is that none of us have the funds that the NSA has to
aquire an answer that will actually silence this thread.
The reality is: Who are you trying to protect it against?
On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, Mark Rolen wrote:
Diana Eichert wrote:
You can locate data from formatted and wiped hard drive, if you have the
resources behind you.
Can you point to an actual instance you know of where this has happened? I
don't mean that in an aggressive or challenging way, I'm
Eric Furman wrote:
It can't be done. it's an urban legend, AFAICT.
http://www.nber.org/sys-admin/overwritten-data-guttman.html
Which references Gutmann's paper which started all this...
Of course I'm sure a tax analyst (http://www.nber.org/vitae/vita184.htm)
knows more about data recovery
On 1/3/08, new_guy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm working on putting a website up now where I'll fully disclose the
details. Lots of pictures and details. I will attribute the dd used to
OpenBSD (the best OS on the planet bar none... although the dd on the
install CD did not support the conv
On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 12:25:02PM -0600, Marco Peereboom wrote:
On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 10:25:25AM -0800, Jon wrote:
hi
I see a lot of programs that are available to clean up the disks for
Windows OS. Not wipe a disk but clean up deleted files so they cannot be
recovered.
Is there
On Tue, Jan 01, 2008 at 02:14:53PM -0500, Christopher Linn wrote:
On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 12:25:02PM -0600, Marco Peereboom wrote:
On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 10:25:25AM -0800, Jon wrote:
I see a lot of programs that are available to clean up the disks for
Windows OS. Not wipe a disk but
Still recoverable. I have dealt with pretty badly burnt disks that we
recovered data off. Really the grinder is the way to go.
On Tue, Jan 01, 2008 at 02:14:53PM -0500, Christopher Linn wrote:
On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 12:25:02PM -0600, Marco Peereboom wrote:
On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 10:25:25AM
Hi!
On Tue, Jan 01, 2008 at 05:27:59PM -0600, Marco Peereboom wrote:
Still recoverable. I have dealt with pretty badly burnt disks that we
recovered data off. Really the grinder is the way to go.
Thermite should do the work too. Hot enough to bring the material out of
the ferromagnetic
Jon wrote:
(not looking to delete a file securly - but to wipe the disk clean of
deleted file with out affecting the OS)
What problem are you trying to solve?
Hi!
On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 10:25:25AM -0800, Jon wrote:
I see a lot of programs that are available to clean up the disks for
Windows OS. Not wipe a disk but clean up deleted files so they cannot be
recovered.
Is there any program for OpenBSD that will clean up the disks so that
deleted files
Grind them up. There is nothing else you can do to permanently wipe
disks. Residual magnetism is always there provided good enough
equipment. If your data is that sensitive there is nothing else but the
grinder.
On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 10:25:25AM -0800, Jon wrote:
hi
I see a lot of
But as a stopgap, look into rm -P (on OpenBSD). Linux has shred too.
On Dec 31, 2007 1:25 PM, Marco Peereboom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Grind them up. There is nothing else you can do to permanently wipe
disks. Residual magnetism is always there provided good enough
equipment. If your data
Jon-113 wrote:
Is there any program for OpenBSD that will clean up the disks so that
deleted files cannot be recovered.
/dev/zero or /dev/urandom either will work fine (the first being quicker
than the last)
--
View this message in context:
On Dec 31, 2007 10:25 AM, Marco Peereboom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Grind them up. There is nothing else you can do to permanently wipe
disks. Residual magnetism is always there provided good enough
equipment. If your data is that sensitive there is nothing else but the
grinder.
Someone
xSAPPYx wrote:
Someone linked me this article a couple calling into question the
ability to actually read overwritten data:
http://www.nber.org/sys-admin/overwritten-data-guttman.html
I'de love to read something from the other side, showing real examples
of getting usable data off of a
Marco Peereboom wrote:
Grind them up. There is nothing else you can do to permanently wipe
disks. Residual magnetism is always there provided good enough
equipment. If your data is that sensitive there is nothing else but the
grinder.
Be sure that you do this yourself or personally
rm -P would be what you're looking for..
But is it even required? It's not exactly an easy task to undelete a file
anyway... the process alone is an effecitve deterrent.
-Nix Fan.
Peereboom [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Jon [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: misc@openbsd.org
Subject: Re: delete deleted data
Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
References: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01)
X-Loop
On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 04:32:08PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Some geeks have had hard drive roast featuring thermite placed on top of hard
drives to melt them.
That sounds like a fun way to securely delete data given enough thermite.
nah, use one of these
bullshit.
On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 12:56:54PM -0800, new_guy wrote:
xSAPPYx wrote:
Someone linked me this article a couple calling into question the
ability to actually read overwritten data:
http://www.nber.org/sys-admin/overwritten-data-guttman.html
I'de love to read something
To expand on bullshit a little...
The longer you leave a 0 or 1 in a given place on a platter the more of
an impression it makes there. Writing over it with with random bits,
even several times, will not totally erase the deep magnetic impression
of the former bit. Forensics are more than good
hi
the problem is to clean up the un-used storage locations. When I delete
files / logs/ etc... I don't want any one to recover them. I am not asking
how to securly discard my disks...
The answers are (from the threads)
1. rm -P
2. fill up the disks with 0 and delete them when the disk
On Dec 31, 2007, at 11:19 PM, Jon wrote:
hi
the problem is to clean up the un-used storage locations. When I
delete
files / logs/ etc... I don't want any one to recover them. I am not
asking
how to securly discard my disks...
The answers are (from the threads)
1. rm -P
2. fill
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