Re: Strange line in the routing table after carp failover?

2007-12-14 Thread Henning Brauer
* Charles Price [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007-12-13 23:46]: yes,that is the result of games carp plays with routes (which it shouldn not, imo, but anyway). it should finally work as advertised in -current even with unnumbered carpdevs. Hi Henning, Updating to -current did the trick. Thanks

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Gilles Chehade
On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 05:02:45AM +0530, Karthik Kumar wrote: Hey, we could all use the same arguments and call OpenBSD hypocritical: say no to blobs (it's even on the nvidia-wallpaper!) but say yes to libflashplayer.so (which is of course secure because it's obscure, but more than that

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread David H. Lynch Jr.
Theo de Raadt wrote: Theo de Raadt wrote: Hell, the OpenBSD ports tree should perhaps contain patches which REMOVE such commercial operating system support. That's a fork Richard would surely approve of. Richard, your pants are full of hypocritical poo. I have no

Re: Exclusion caused by SMALL_KERNEL

2007-12-14 Thread Henning Brauer
* Mats Erik Andersson [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007-12-13 02:28]: having spent most of the evening to understand why my kernel build suddenly aborted compilation with a pointer to a missing call rt_mpath_next, I found that the option SMALL_KERNEL clashes with pseudo-device pf 1, and that this was

Re: Getting envolved

2007-12-14 Thread Artur Grabowski
Mathieu Stumpf [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I disagree. A complex interface implies a lot of code. a lot of code leads to unreliablity, either through bugs or detracting valuable developer time from more important things A simple interface (well designed) imples less

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Richard Stallman
You said Real men don't attack straw men. Yet this is *EXACTLY* what you are now doing. You continue to repeatedly write that OpenBSD recommends the ports system to its users, *which it does not*. Let me say that once again: OpenBSD recommends that EVERYBODY USE PACKAGES, NOT

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread L
David H. Lynch Jr. wrote: Hell, the OpenBSD ports tree should perhaps contain patches which REMOVE such commercial operating system support. That's a fork Richard would surely approve of. Richard, your pants are full of hypocritical poo. I have no doubt that in some context

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Richard Stallman
It also seems silly to me this idea between tainted and clean oses, such as Open and gNewSense, respectively. Take for example a user that runs Ubuntu [GNU/]Linux but proscribes to your free-only philosophy. They don't have to install the adobe flash plugin (which I believe

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Gilles Chehade
Richard Stallman a icrit : I have no obligation to answer each and every message that people post, or address every issue anyone else raises. Some issues don't seem to need answers. There is a difference between I have no obligation to answer each and every message and I cannot find a

Re: : : no 4.2-stable package updates??

2007-12-14 Thread Raimo Niskanen
On Thu, Dec 13, 2007 at 04:10:39PM -0500, Jason Beaudoin wrote: On Dec 13, 2007 1:05 PM, Raimo Niskanen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Dec 13, 2007 at 01:07:17PM +, Jonathan Thornburg wrote: First, I'd like to thank those who provided useful responces to my query (which started this

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Tony Abernethy
Edd Barrett wrote: How do you browse the web? emacs?

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Edd Barrett
Hi Richard, On 14/12/2007, Richard Stallman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But I would also like you to answer my emails, especially this one: http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-miscm=119741909911558w=2 I have no obligation to answer each and every message that people post, or address every issue

swap encryption Re: Putting partition in RAM

2007-12-14 Thread knitti
Gilbert, Douglas, swap encryption on OpenBSD is done different than what you advise. just use a sysctl for vm.swapencrypt.enable. Much less maintenance headaches. an yes, don't complain about being reminded that this is not a netbsd / linux support list. --knitti

Re: swap encryption Re: Putting partition in RAM

2007-12-14 Thread Otto Moerbeek
On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 01:02:42PM +0100, knitti wrote: Gilbert, Douglas, swap encryption on OpenBSD is done different than what you advise. just use a sysctl for vm.swapencrypt.enable. Much less maintenance headaches. besides, since a few releases it has been enabled by default.

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Ray Percival
On Dec 13, 2007, at 11:18 PM, David H. Lynch Jr. wrote: snip It is completely irrelevant to Stallman whether the OS he endorses is actually useful. In his world view, his definition of free trumps functional. It is always possible to improve the quality of something, it is may not be

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread michael hamerski
On Dec 14, 2007 9:09 AM, David H. Lynch Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you have turrets or aspergers or some other reason why you are compelled to insult virtually everyone ? Wow, now we're taking potshots at the handicapped. There goes that fluffy PC do-gooder image then.

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Damien Miller
On Fri, 14 Dec 2007, Richard Stallman wrote: It also seems silly to me this idea between tainted and clean oses, such as Open and gNewSense, respectively. Take for example a user that runs Ubuntu [GNU/]Linux but proscribes to your free-only philosophy. They don't have to

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread michael hamerski
Sorry, back to list, public debate. On Dec 14, 2007 11:51 AM, David H. Lynch Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: michael hamerski wrote: In other words, a society in which non-free software more or less doesn't exist. And there you go denying non-free software, by your definition, the

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Michael Schmidt
michael hamerski schrieb: Nah, it's too much fun... seriously though, even though ultimately pointless, I think it's a worthy public debate. Let him expound his theories and ethics and let's dissect them layer by layer. For the record. Wise remark :-) -- Michael Schmidt MIRRORS:

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread marina
David: The OpenBSD position is best expressed in this rather rude statement: Shut up and code. RMS is a philosopher of the evangelical sort. Folks here are a bit more pragmatic and want to code. A lot of us are infuriated by this discussion. You suggested that Theo might have Asbergers. As

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Johan Mson Lindman
David H. Lynch Jr. wrote: I am not out to get you. Richard is not out to get you. The FSF is not out to get you. The world is not out to get you. But you appear to Again, Richard made foul and faulty comments about OpenBSD first. Richard then came to the OpenBSD mailing lists looking

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Eric Furman
On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 05:09:46 -0500, Richard Stallman [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: It also seems silly to me this idea between tainted and clean oses, such as Open and gNewSense, respectively. Take for example a user that runs Ubuntu [GNU/]Linux but proscribes to your free-only

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Marc Espie
On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 11:37:02PM +1100, Damien Miller wrote: This incredibly misguided. People won't switch to free software because of hectoring and hamfisted attempts to frustrate their choices, but they instantly switch when free software becomes a compelling replacement - look at Apache

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Damien Miller
On Fri, 14 Dec 2007, Richard Stallman wrote: You said Real men don't attack straw men. Yet this is *EXACTLY* what you are now doing. You continue to repeatedly write that OpenBSD recommends the ports system to its users, *which it does not*. Let me say that once again: OpenBSD

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread michael hamerski
Richard, you're being cc'ed because people speak in your name. On Dec 14, 2007 9:35 AM, David H. Lynch Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: michael hamerski wrote: I think it's a worthy public debate. Let him expound his theories and ethics and let's dissect them layer by layer. For the record.

Re: swap encryption

2007-12-14 Thread Nick Guenther
On Dec 14, 2007 10:45 AM, Lars Noodin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's not that clear if it is, at least on the version of OpenBSD 4.2 I have. It's very much a plain vanilla setup however, /etc/sysctl.conf says: #vm.swapencrypt.enable=0 # 0=Do not encrypt pages that go to swap To me that

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Han Boetes
Theo de Raadt wrote: Yet on Richard's side of this fence, emacs and gcc _directly include_ code which lets users use those two pieces of software on commercial operating systems. He facilitates using something good on something bad, which helps end users realize that open source products can

Re: : Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread overdrive openbsd
Why Stallman comes here? I am not going to all mailing of different operating systems that I don't like, saying you're shit, use my OS (ah, no, RMS didn't write a code in the last 12 years?). Anyway you're insulting us, telling what I should use or not, I don't need a mentor to tell me nothing

Re: Getting envolved

2007-12-14 Thread Joshua Smith
Users who can no invest the effort learn enough to use a simple interface do not deserve a reliable operating system. They deserve windows, and they deserve pop up buttong in their browsers that they click ok blindly for everything. I couldn't agree more, people expect that they will

Re: swap encryption

2007-12-14 Thread Otto Moerbeek
On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 05:45:11PM +0200, Lars Nood??n wrote: Otto Moerbeek wrote: On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 01:02:42PM +0100, knitti wrote: Gilbert, Douglas, swap encryption on OpenBSD is done different than what you advise. just use a sysctl for vm.swapencrypt.enable. Much less

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Karthik Kumar
If the confusion regarding whether such a flash player exists at all: http://www.undeadly.org/cgi?action=articlesid=20070907181228 -- Karthik http://guilt.bafsoft.net

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Marco Peereboom
How interesting,... *NOT* Flash is about the worst thing that has ever happened to the internet. I as a user do not use so what is your point again? Who cares that it is in ports? I certainly don't. Why would I care if someone wants to see ads shooting at them when they visit a site? Good for

Re: swap encryption

2007-12-14 Thread Lars Noodén
Otto Moerbeek wrote: On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 01:02:42PM +0100, knitti wrote: Gilbert, Douglas, swap encryption on OpenBSD is done different than what you advise. just use a sysctl for vm.swapencrypt.enable. Much less maintenance headaches. besides, since a few releases it has been

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Nick Guenther
On Dec 14, 2007 5:09 AM, Richard Stallman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But I would also like you to answer my emails, especially this one: http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-miscm=119741909911558w=2 However, because of your offer, I will send mail to try to find the message that URL refers to, and

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Gilles Chehade
Sorry Karthik but I prefer to keep misc@ cc-ed as it is archived and people will later be able to know that you are a troll when they do a lookup about you. The page you are refering to mentions three new ports. If you had spent your time doing something as productive as reading the faq instead

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Eric Furman
On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 21:35:57 +0530, Karthik Kumar [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: If the confusion regarding whether such a flash player exists at all: http://www.undeadly.org/cgi?action=articlesid=20070907181228 Yes, of course it exists. But you stated that OpenBSD includes it. It does not. It is not

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Michael Spratt
If OpenBSD is a force field/bubble and richard stallman entered into it.. The bubble would be contaminated and the whole biosphere would have to be shut down and re-built in a new clean environment that's why... Just because some asshole with a God complex No. Nothing begs the question of what

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Marco Peereboom
Who cares? Opera is also in pots, who cares? I am sure we have more of those things in there. It's exactly the same as having windows binaries for emacs. Not interesting. This is a non argument. Stop lying and we'll stop telling you that you are a hypocrite. On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at

Re: swap encryption

2007-12-14 Thread Lars Noodén
Bret Lambert wrote: ... The fact that you have to *change* a setting to get it to *not* encrypt swap should be a strong indicator that the default is to do so. Yes. That's what I wrote: according to sysctl, encryption is enabled by default. But the examples in /etc/sysctl.conf are set up the

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Breen Ouellette
- This is a reply to David's email to me. I have left out his original message since it was sent privately and without permission to repost to the list. - This is all I have left to say on the matter. How you take it from here is up to you. OpenBSD only endorses OpenBSD. I have

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Ted Unangst
On 12/14/07, Richard Stallman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Adobe flash plug-in is non-free software, and people should not install it, or suggest installing it, or even tell people it exists. so much for free speech.

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Woodchuck
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007, Theo de Raadt wrote: Richard, you are a total hypocrite. You are in here creating a fuss about our software, saying it is non-free, when you are doing exactly the same thing yourself. Put another way: The presence of an OpenBSD port entry for opera encourages

Re: KDE presents a distorted screen or quits in the middle of starting up

2007-12-14 Thread Rob Lytle
On 12 Dec 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, It takes me 3 or 4 startx's before I get a KDE screen that looks normal. When it looks bad, the terminal background is black and other contrast problems exist. Other times it simply locks up in the middle of starting up. Has any one else had

Re: no 4.2-stable package updates??

2007-12-14 Thread Unix Fan
I would like to apologize for my early post to this topic, I was extremely rude and disrespectful. Please disregard it. -Nix Fan.

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Byron Sonne
Orthodoxy is EVIL no matter what god it's in service of. Oh that's rich coming from OpenBSD land...

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Deanna Phillips
Karthik Kumar writes: If the confusion regarding whether such a flash player exists at all: http://www.undeadly.org/cgi?action=articlesid=20070907181228 The irony there is that I stopped working on Gnash (an official FSF project) for OpenBSD when they added a Windows developer as a project

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Paul de Weerd
Re-adding the original recipients. Please keep this on-list or out of my mailbox. On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 07:12:46AM -0500, David H. Lynch Jr. wrote: | Paul de Weerd wrote: | On Tue, Dec 11, 2007 at 06:56:57PM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote: | | I don't recommend Torvalds' version of Linux. The

Bind port for bind/dmz

2007-12-14 Thread Michael Spratt
I have a question, I'm trying to recompile a flavor of bind but I can't find the port because its part of the base install. Could you point me in the right direction on how I would do it ? I downloaded the bind source and compiled it but obviously the original version that ships on base should

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Marc Espie
On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 05:48:44PM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: http://www.openbsd.org/4.2_packages/i386/zangband-2.6.2p1.tgz-long.html According to Sourceforge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/zangband License: Other/Proprietary License Bullshit. If you had gone to the trouble of

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Erik Wikström
On 2007-12-14 18:48, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: On Thu, Dec 13, 2007 at 11:54:47AM -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote: Richard, your pants are full of hypocritical poo. You too. I still remember cheering when I read http://monkey.org/openbsd/archive/ports/0108/msg00460.html * From:

Re: Intel DQ35MP

2007-12-14 Thread Marcos Laufer
I'm sure i installed the install42.iso from december 6th , maybe there was something wrong on that image? I'll try burning the newest one Thanks! - Original Message - From: Jason George [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: misc@openbsd.org Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 8:42 PM Subject: Re: Intel

Re: Getting envolved

2007-12-14 Thread Bob Beck
* Douglas A. Tutty [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007-12-13 21:46]: On Thu, Dec 13, 2007 at 08:22:07PM -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote: When I read that, it sounded a lot to me like saying if you're not a skilled medical practitioner, you don't deserve decent health care. Seems to me one of the

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Michael Spratt
Yes you being coppied come quick and install your GNU licence on us before it escapes you. Come oh dilbert of gnu, stamp your licence upon all who code. Propegate your gnu legacy through the universe down to the plank scale. Install your agenda near and far. Come and spread the evangalistic word.

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Rui Miguel Silva Seabra
On Thu, Dec 13, 2007 at 11:54:47AM -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote: Richard, your pants are full of hypocritical poo. You too. I still remember cheering when I read http://monkey.org/openbsd/archive/ports/0108/msg00460.html * From: Theo de Raadt [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001

/dev/agp0, Do I need a new one?

2007-12-14 Thread Rob Lytle
People have been suggesting to me that I keep kernel and world in sync, and by all means MAKEDEV agp0.But I have always had /dev/agp0 and I assume it was regenerated when I MAKEDEV all a couple of days ago. I installed my snapshot right before the remake config warning, and been cvsup'ing

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Travers Buda
* Karthik Kumar [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007-12-14 21:35:57]: If the confusion regarding whether such a flash player exists at all: http://www.undeadly.org/cgi?action=articlesid=20070907181228 -- Karthik http://guilt.bafsoft.net What's your point? Of course it exists... this is Open BSD

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread michael hamerski
On Dec 14, 2007 5:43 PM, Breen Ouellette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - This is a reply to David's email to me. I have left out his original message since it was sent privately and without permission to repost to the list. - Yeah, I have a bunch of emails from him, which despite my best

Re: Getting envolved

2007-12-14 Thread Darren Spruell
On Dec 13, 2007 7:39 PM, Jeremy Huiskamp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Users who can no invest the effort learn enough to use a simple interface do not deserve a reliable operating system. They deserve windows, and they deserve pop up buttong in their browsers that they click ok blindly

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Breen Ouellette
Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: On Thu, Dec 13, 2007 at 11:54:47AM -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote: Richard, your pants are full of hypocritical poo. You too. I still remember cheering when I read http://monkey.org/openbsd/archive/ports/0108/msg00460.html * From: Theo de Raadt [EMAIL

Re: Bind port for bind/dmz

2007-12-14 Thread Unix Fan
Michael Spratt wrote: I have a question, I'm trying to recompile a flavor of bind but I can't find the port because its part of the base install. Could you point me in the right direction on how I would do it ? I downloaded the bind source and compiled it but obviously the original

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Unix Fan
Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: You too. I still remember cheering when I read http://monkey.org/openbsd/archive/ports/0108/msg00460.html * From: Theo de Raadt [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 12:11:00 -0600 * Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am just curious -

Developers: First Reply Gets My Copy Of /On Bullshit/

2007-12-14 Thread Breen Ouellette
OpenBSD developers, In recognition of all the bullshit flying around recently on misc@, I would like to offer to mail my copy of of the essay /On Bullshit/ by Harry Frankfurt as a gift to the first OpenBSD developer to request it. This essay is bound in a blue hardcover 4 x 6 (10cm x 15cm)

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Ted Unangst
On 12/14/07, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am just curious - why exactly were all the DJB ports dropped? Precisely because of what the commit message says: Removed qmail; license does not permit modification [camield 2001-08-14] Sadly you're too quick to

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Edward A. Gardner
Along with Godwin's law, there must be some rule of flame fests that people forget how it started or fail to note when they make ridiculous statements. Example, how it started. Some recent comments: RMS made statements first. RMS will pay for his lies. Nobody here asked for or WANTS his

Re: : no 4.2-stable package updates??

2007-12-14 Thread Jason Beaudoin
Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like security on a lot of systems is trying to play catch-up with the latest patches. I I have an enemy, that is exactly where I want him. Seems like long ago OBSD tended to have fixed the latest whatever about 6 months before everybody else woke up

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Ken Ismert
misc, Richard: As someone from a relatively outside perspective, I find this thread puzzling. My feelings have swung from one side to the other as the thread has surged on. I just don't know the players well enough to draw a firm conclusion. The nub of the perceived slight is this: RMS can't

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Aaron Glenn
On Dec 14, 2007 8:33 AM, Ted Unangst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/14/07, Richard Stallman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Adobe flash plug-in is non-free software, and people should not install it, or suggest installing it, or even tell people it exists. so much for free speech. I think

Re: Developers: First Reply Gets My Copy Of /On Bullshit/

2007-12-14 Thread Marcus Andree
Man, that's the best thing I've got on misc@ in the last two or three days. On 12/14/07, Breen Ouellette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip For everyone else, we are all lucky enough to be able to access the full text at the following link:

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Jason Beaudoin
I've been trying for a couple of years to get going a modified version of Firefox that won't offer to install any non-free plug-ins, but we don't have enough people to make this work very well. If you would like to help, please let me know. It is an important project. One last question..

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Marc Balmer
Aaron Glenn wrote: On Dec 14, 2007 8:33 AM, Ted Unangst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/14/07, Richard Stallman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Adobe flash plug-in is non-free software, and people should not install it, or suggest installing it, or even tell people it exists. so much for free

Re: Developers: First Reply Gets My Copy Of /On Bullshit/

2007-12-14 Thread Bob Beck
Me! Me! Ship it to my address: 51 Franklin Street, Fifth Floor Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA -Bob * Breen Ouellette [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007-12-14 13:02]: OpenBSD developers, In recognition of all the bullshit flying around recently on misc@, I would like to offer to mail my

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Harry Menegay
Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: On Thu, Dec 13, 2007 at 11:54:47AM -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote: Richard, your pants are full of hypocritical poo. You too. I still remember cheering when I read http://monkey.org/openbsd/archive/ports/0108/msg00460.html * From: Theo de Raadt [EMAIL

Re: Developers: First Reply Gets My Copy Of /On Bullshit/

2007-12-14 Thread Floor Terra
On Dec 14, 2007 8:16 PM, Breen Ouellette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OpenBSD developers, In recognition of all the bullshit flying around recently on misc@, I would like to offer to mail my copy of of the essay /On Bullshit/ by Harry Frankfurt as a gift to the first OpenBSD developer to request

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Richard Stallman
It's total BS. If you don't want to pay for software, fine don't, but don't go on some religious crusade trying to get me to believe it's unethical so I won't either. When you buy a copy of a non-free program, you pay with your money and with your freedom. You apparently don't assign

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Richard Stallman
An anthology contains the actual licensed material of the books. The ports tree only contains urls of these pieces of software you object to. You're right, but I don't think that difference matters for this issue. Giving just the URLs for non-free software is referring people to them.

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Richard Stallman
running non-GPL-covered software? Not I. I frequently run OpenSSH, whose license is not the GNU GPL, and is incompatible with the GPL (if my memory serves). Richard, please stop spreading lies (or looking like a fool) by not doing research. The license of OpenSSH is

Re: Developers: First Reply Gets My Copy Of /On Bullshit/

2007-12-14 Thread Breen Ouellette
It's yours Bob. Given the address you've posted, I imagine that you might want me to send it in care of someone with the initials RMS? Breeno Bob Beck wrote: Me! Me! Ship it to my address: 51 Franklin Street, Fifth Floor Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA -Bob * Breen Ouellette [EMAIL

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Richard Stallman
Since both emacs and gcc contain code inside them which permit them to compile and run on commercial operating systems which are non-free, you are a slimy hypocrite. I see you are being your usual friendly self ;-}. There is a big practical difference between making a free system

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Richard Stallman
If OpenBSD could spin off the ports system (perhaps people could put it on the Pirate Bay), and break off connection with it, then it would cease to convey any message from OpenBSD to the users. Then I could recommend OpenBSD while not recommending its ports system.

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Richard Stallman
Why is it so hard for you to answer that question... To answer the question was not hard. To answer it before I saw it would have been very hard. You failed to answer these several times already, When you said that, it was 21:00 here. At that time I had not even seen any of those

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Richard Stallman
However, if distribution D includes this easier way to install in its ports system, by doing so distribution D endorses it and takes on the ethical responsibility for it. We all know that the linux kernel (on which gNewSense is based) has an easy way to install binary blobs,

Re: Developers: First Reply Gets My Copy Of /On Bullshit/

2007-12-14 Thread Pierre Groulx
Nice one there Bob! On 12/14/07, Bob Beck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Me! Me! Ship it to my address: 51 Franklin Street, Fifth Floor Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA -Bob * Breen Ouellette [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007-12-14 13:02]: OpenBSD developers, In recognition of all the

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Richard Stallman
So have you sent these types of unrecommendations to other OS' mailing lists or just OpenBSD's? I generally don't raise the issue, and I did not raise it this time. I did not start this discussion. I posted on this list because people were making inaccurate statements about my views.

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Richard Stallman
In other words, a society in which non-free software more or less doesn't exist. And there you go denying non-free software, by your definition, the very right to exist. How free is that? It is much freer than a world in which non-free programs entice many people into

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Theo de Raadt
I should more precisely have said that the OpenBSD ports system includes instructions for fetching, building and installing specific non-free programs. Yes, that would be the truth. What you did say, however, is not the truth. What I said was the same thing, in

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Richard Stallman
I should more precisely have said that the OpenBSD ports system includes instructions for fetching, building and installing specific non-free programs. Yes, that would be the truth. What you did say, however, is not the truth. What I said was the same thing, in different

Re: : Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Richard Stallman
If he really hated what we do, he should stop using OpenSSH. He says he uses it. He should not. We are horrible people; he should not use our software. I don't hate what you do. I don't hate OpenBSD. I have a specific criticism of one point about OpenBSD, but that is not hatred.

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Richard Stallman
This philosophy disturbs me, and reminds me of the rationale for censorship in dictatorships and police states. Admitting the existence of something even referencing it does not give it legitimacy. Should we remove any reference to nazi germany from our history

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Eric Faurot
RMS wrote: I've been trying for a couple of years to get going a modified version of Firefox that won't offer to install any non-free plug-ins, but we don't have enough people to make this work very well. If you would like to help, please let me know. It is an important project. Hahaha!!!

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Richard Stallman
You *can't relicense* code under your choice without the author consent period! That BSD license gives permission for almost any kind of use, including distributing the code under other licenses. The only requirement is not to remove the BSD license statement itself. Another message

Re: Developers: First Reply Gets My Copy Of /On Bullshit/

2007-12-14 Thread Jim Razmus
* Bob Beck [EMAIL PROTECTED] [071214 15:51]: Me! Me! Ship it to my address: 51 Franklin Street, Fifth Floor Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA -Bob * Breen Ouellette [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007-12-14 13:02]: OpenBSD developers, In recognition of all the bullshit flying around

(Thread name objectionable as well) Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread marina
Oh, and by the way, I'm not a real man. Actually I'm not a man at all. Not all people who are in software are men. I've contributed in small ways to OpenBSD, FreeBSD, Linux and Plan9. --- Marina Brown On Fri, 14 Dec 2007, Richard Stallman wrote: An anthology contains the actual

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Eric Furman
On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 13:19:06 -0600, Ken Ismert [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: So, I ask you respectfully, Richard: what is your intent in making your original comments, and starting this thread? That would be the deciding factor for me. Self aggrandizement has been RMS's only agenda for a long time.

Re: Intel DQ35MP

2007-12-14 Thread Marcos Laufer
I think the newest install42.iso is also wrong. I open the .iso and the files inside have old dates (november 20 2007, and november 13 2007) I'll make my own .iso with the rest of the files from the i386 snapshot directory Regards, - Original Message - From: Marcos Laufer [EMAIL

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Richard Stallman
| I don't recommend Torvalds' version of Linux. The versions of Linux | in Ututo and gNewSense, which I recommend, do not have the blobs. Interesting, these linux distributions. They are GNU/Linux distributions. (See http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html.)

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Jason Beaudoin
What puzzles me is why you think this mistake was a lie, or that it might make me look like a fool. People normally don't call someone a liar, or a fool, because of a little (and tangential) mistake like this. Because someone in your position, with the influence you have, communicating these

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Richard Stallman
And for all those people who keep trying to say that OpenBSD doesn't support ports - we do. If we put it out, that's the support already. But - seriously, as a project, do we need the validation from FSF/Richard? OpenBSD certainly doesn't need my permission for anything. If

come, help me with something more productive

2007-12-14 Thread bofh
Heh. I think we're having far too much fun in the other threads. I have a serious question. I'm a mangler in a largish company. We have developers, and contractors. No coding standards and all that, so, things are... messy. I'm not in charge of development, but I want to help them develop

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Gregg Reynolds
On 12/14/07, Richard Stallman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... People already know about non-free systems such as Windows, so it is unlikely that the mention of them in a free package will tell them about a system and they will then switch to it. Also, switching operating systems is a big deal.

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2007-12-14 Thread Gilles Chehade
On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 03:50:41PM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote: Why is it so hard for you to answer that question... To answer the question was not hard. To answer it before I saw it would have been very hard. You failed to answer these several times already, When you said

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