Re: European orders - Thank you Theo and your team, some of us appreciate you!
Steve Fairhead wrote: snip Second, you mentioned embedded work, which is my main work area. Yes, embedded stuff needs to be stable long-term - but the Internet isn't: threats change, and OpenBSD evolves. A classic solution to that (which I've used) is to simply accept that the legacy embedded stuff should not be directly connected to the Internet, and to use a current (or at least regularly maintained) OpenBSD machine as a gateway. Or, to put it another way: use the right tools for the job. Hey Steve, long time no chat I've not been reading c.a.e. for awhile. I finally got Novell NFS 3.0 working, thanks to a melange of code from patches (thanks for your initial participation). I agree online threats change; my argument is for a stable core o/s, with patches made for threat mitigation and stable API and ABI and configuration within a major release number, to make life easier for small shops that can't afford to shoot at moving targets all the time. I need to run on old hardware, and reading the commits and changes scares me no end that performance issues would cripple my systems if I continually 'upgraded'. Managing threats requires resources, and it should be up to the user to understand and choose the solutions to threat management within the scope of the hardware resources available to him. Performance data is often lacking, so I take a conservative approach and backport what I need and then test for stability and performance on my hardware. This approach isn't much in evidence within obsd development, as Theo stated, it doesn't 'excite' the developers, and of course mature hardware is often no longer available to developers so support is dropped. I had argued for a 'tiered' release structure, e.g. major releases which are expected to run well on a certain class of hardware over a long term, and minor releases which address bugs and online threats. No one expects MS Windows XP to run at all on a 486/33 with 16MB RAM, but they do expect Win98SE to do so, and indeed that o/s is still a viable product to many people. Telling them they can only have 'Vista' is of benefit only to MS, which relies on forced migration increasingly as a business model. Telling folks, 'hardware is cheap, buy something newer', doesn't address the user of dedicated systems which employ certain architectural constraints but rather targets mainly members of that vast set of commodity computer users, or suggests costly upgrades in the dedicated spaces. Some time ago I had posed performance questions in the openbsd-sparc lists in hopes that I could get performance and resource data that could direct my decisions regarding 'upgrades' on older sparc architectures; replies were essentially along the lines of 'try it', which I guess in an open source environment is a fair expectation, however on a rapid-release cycle, I just cannot manage this. Having profiling data on system calls, library functions, facilities like 'pf', etc. for various architectures, updated on each release, would go a long way towards permitting an objective analysis for upgrade decisions. Certainly, when a release drops support for my hardware, that is a show stopper right there and everything else is moot. I recently ported ucos-ii to a twenty year old mcu, because for me it was the right tool for the job, and the advantages of the architecture outweighed pressures to use a newer part; layering comm stacks, interpreters and mini-guis on top of that produced a framework for a large number of projects that leveraged investment in ICE and development systems, and was the only cost-effective solution for various projects. Newer isn't always better, and in tough economic times, and even for 'green' reasons, I would argue for more attention to optimization for mature hardware. Regards, Michael
Re: European orders - Thank you Theo and your team, some of us appreciate you!
* Michael Grigoni michael.grig...@cybertheque.org [2009-04-30 19:51]: I agree online threats change; my argument is for a stable core o/s, with patches made for threat mitigation and stable API and ABI and configuration within a major release number, to make life easier for small shops that can't afford to shoot at moving targets all the time. I need to run on old hardware, and reading the commits and changes scares me no end that performance issues would cripple my systems if I continually 'upgraded'. if you followed releases you would notice that APIs and even ABIs on OpenBSD are pretty damn stable. Exceptions exist, of course, but they are kinda rare. And as for performance... you'd notice old machines do not suddenly get slower over time. In a 10 year's scope, perhaps, when we accept more memory usage for performance, but not really on shorter terms. Managing threats requires resources, and it should be up to the user to understand and choose the solutions to threat management within the scope of the hardware resources available to him. Performance data is often lacking, so I take a conservative approach and backport what I need and then test for stability and performance on my hardware. This approach isn't much in evidence within obsd development, as Theo stated, it doesn't 'excite' the developers, and of course mature hardware is often no longer available to developers so support is dropped. we do not tend to drop support for hardware. happens for really really ancient stuff (10years) from time to time, but even that seldom. if you spent your energy used for backporting and performance testing and whatnot on testing recent releases on your hardware you'd save a LOT of time and get a lot of goodies back in the process. I had argued for a 'tiered' release structure, e.g. major releases which are expected to run well on a certain class of hardware over a long term, our releases do that. and minor releases which address bugs and online threats. No one expects MS Windows XP to run at all on a 486/33 with 16MB RAM, but they do expect but OpenBSD does. even 4.5. might run into a little trouble with 16MB RAM, but even that is doable (might require a custom kernel) Win98SE to do so, and indeed that o/s is still a viable product to many people. and shouldn't be. Some time ago I had posed performance questions in the openbsd-sparc lists in hopes that I could get performance and resource data that could direct my decisions regarding 'upgrades' on older sparc architectures; replies were essentially along the lines of 'try it', which I guess in an open source environment is a fair expectation, however on a rapid-release cycle, I just cannot manage this. but you can manage backporting? hilarious. Having profiling data on system calls, library functions, facilities like 'pf', etc. for various architectures, updated on each release, would go a long way towards permitting an objective analysis for upgrade decisions. nobody is stopping you from doing this really... Certainly, when a release drops support for my hardware, that is a show stopper right there and everything else is moot. you keep talking about dropping hardware support. what the hell are you referring to? Newer isn't always better, and in tough economic times, and even for 'green' reasons, I would argue for more attention to optimization for mature hardware. balony. I run OpenBSD 4.5 just fine on ancient hardware (and lots of more current hardware, of course) -- Henning Brauer, h...@bsws.de, henn...@openbsd.org BS Web Services, http://bsws.de Full-Service ISP - Secure Hosting, Mail and DNS Services Dedicated Servers, Rootservers, Application Hosting - Hamburg Amsterdam
Re: European orders - Thank you Theo and your team, some of us appreciate you!
Henning Brauer wrote: * Michael Grigoni michael.grig...@cybertheque.org [2009-04-30 19:51]: snip we do not tend to drop support for hardware. happens for really really ancient stuff (10years) from time to time, but even that seldom. In the context of this discussion, the hardware is about 17 years old. if you spent your energy used for backporting and performance testing and whatnot on testing recent releases on your hardware you'd save a LOT of time and get a lot of goodies back in the process. I certainly would like to do so; I hope circumstances permit it in the near term for me. snip Some time ago I had posed performance questions in the openbsd-sparc lists in hopes that I could get performance and resource data that could direct my decisions regarding 'upgrades' on older sparc architectures; replies were essentially along the lines of 'try it', which I guess in an open source environment is a fair expectation, however on a rapid-release cycle, I just cannot manage this. but you can manage backporting? hilarious. For those facilities I require in my application, yes (kernel and pf). I don't really want to have to reinstall an entire set of configs, utilities, libraries etc. to get the benefit of a single (or few) changes, when I am constrained by filesystem sizes, media types, and the performance considerations of utilities which got changed but had nothing to do with the changes I sought in the kernel or pf. In this context I don't need a general-purpose platform (like FreeBSD, etc.) but a very tightly-coded, lean, mean kernel for use in certain custom applications ;) For the same reasons, I would strip down MS-Windows, OS/2, various SVR4, etc. and have often resorted to enhancing an RTOS for my applications. Certainly there are commercial O/Ses which offer small footprints, well-documented profiling, mature architecture support, etc., but again, cost is a large factor. 'MicroBSD' was obviously an attempt to do this publicly but sadly didn't succeed. Regards, Michael
Re: European orders - Thank you Theo and your team, some of us appreciate you!
* Michael Grigoni michael.grig...@cybertheque.org [2009-04-30 21:42]: Henning Brauer wrote: * Michael Grigoni michael.grig...@cybertheque.org [2009-04-30 19:51]: snip we do not tend to drop support for hardware. happens for really really ancient stuff (10years) from time to time, but even that seldom. In the context of this discussion, the hardware is about 17 years old. so put 4.5 on it. chances are high it still just works. Some time ago I had posed performance questions in the openbsd-sparc lists in hopes that I could get performance and resource data that could direct my decisions regarding 'upgrades' on older sparc architectures; replies were essentially along the lines of 'try it', which I guess in an open source environment is a fair expectation, however on a rapid-release cycle, I just cannot manage this. but you can manage backporting? hilarious. For those facilities I require in my application, yes (kernel and pf). I don't really want to have to reinstall an entire set of configs, utilities, libraries etc. to get the benefit of a single (or few) changes, when I am constrained by filesystem sizes, media types, and the performance considerations of utilities which got changed but had nothing to do with the changes I sought in the kernel or pf. oh cut the crap. just try it. openbsd version upgrades are way smoother than minor version updates for most other OSes. In this context I don't need a general-purpose platform (like FreeBSD, etc.) but a very tightly-coded, lean, mean kernel for use in certain custom applications ;) and OpenBSD 4.5 is much better in that than 3.5. mature architecture support, etc., but again, cost is a large factor. 'MicroBSD' was obviously an attempt to do this publicly but sadly didn't succeed. MicroBSD was a joke. Don't get me started. banner microbsd, anyone? -- Henning Brauer, h...@bsws.de, henn...@openbsd.org BS Web Services, http://bsws.de Full-Service ISP - Secure Hosting, Mail and DNS Services Dedicated Servers, Rootservers, Application Hosting - Hamburg Amsterdam
Re: European orders - Thank you Theo and your team,some of us appreciate you!
And can I ask you Michael what any of this has to do with my original post? Look at the subject. Why not start your own thread instead of hi-jacking someone else's? Bill - William J. Chivers Lecturer in Information Technology School of DCIT Faculty of Science and Information Technology University of Newcastle---Ourimbah Campus PO Box 127, Ourimbah, NSW 2259 Australia CRICOS Provider Number: 00109J phone: +61 2 4349 4473 fax: +61 2 4349 4565 email: william.chiv...@newcastle.edu.au - Michael Grigoni michael.grig...@cybertheque.org 05/01/09 3:13 AM Steve Fairhead wrote: snip Second, you mentioned embedded work, which is my main work area. Yes, embedded stuff needs to be stable long-term - but the Internet isn't: threats change, and OpenBSD evolves. A classic solution to that (which I've used) is to simply accept that the legacy embedded stuff should not be directly connected to the Internet, and to use a current (or at least regularly maintained) OpenBSD machine as a gateway. Or, to put it another way: use the right tools for the job. Hey Steve, long time no chat I've not been reading c.a.e. for awhile. I finally got Novell NFS 3.0 working, thanks to a melange of code from patches (thanks for your initial participation). I agree online threats change; my argument is for a stable core o/s, with patches made for threat mitigation and stable API and ABI and configuration within a major release number, to make life easier for small shops that can't afford to shoot at moving targets all the time. I need to run on old hardware, and reading the commits and changes scares me no end that performance issues would cripple my systems if I continually 'upgraded'. Managing threats requires resources, and it should be up to the user to understand and choose the solutions to threat management within the scope of the hardware resources available to him. Performance data is often lacking, so I take a conservative approach and backport what I need and then test for stability and performance on my hardware. This approach isn't much in evidence within obsd development, as Theo stated, it doesn't 'excite' the developers, and of course mature hardware is often no longer available to developers so support is dropped. I had argued for a 'tiered' release structure, e.g. major releases which are expected to run well on a certain class of hardware over a long term, and minor releases which address bugs and online threats. No one expects MS Windows XP to run at all on a 486/33 with 16MB RAM, but they do expect Win98SE to do so, and indeed that o/s is still a viable product to many people. Telling them they can only have 'Vista' is of benefit only to MS, which relies on forced migration increasingly as a business model. Telling folks, 'hardware is cheap, buy something newer', doesn't address the user of dedicated systems which employ certain architectural constraints but rather targets mainly members of that vast set of commodity computer users, or suggests costly upgrades in the dedicated spaces. Some time ago I had posed performance questions in the openbsd-sparc lists in hopes that I could get performance and resource data that could direct my decisions regarding 'upgrades' on older sparc architectures; replies were essentially along the lines of 'try it', which I guess in an open source environment is a fair expectation, however on a rapid-release cycle, I just cannot manage this. Having profiling data on system calls, library functions, facilities like 'pf', etc. for various architectures, updated on each release, would go a long way towards permitting an objective analysis for upgrade decisions. Certainly, when a release drops support for my hardware, that is a show stopper right there and everything else is moot. I recently ported ucos-ii to a twenty year old mcu, because for me it was the right tool for the job, and the advantages of the architecture outweighed pressures to use a newer part; layering comm stacks, interpreters and mini-guis on top of that produced a framework for a large number of projects that leveraged investment in ICE and development systems, and was the only cost-effective solution for various projects. Newer isn't always better, and in tough economic times, and even for 'green' reasons, I would argue for more attention to optimization for mature hardware. Regards, Michael
Re: European orders - Thank you Theo and your team,some of us appreciate you!
William Chivers wrote: And can I ask you Michael what any of this has to do with my original post? Look at the subject. Why not start your own thread instead of hi-jacking someone else's? I was replying to Steve Fairhead's post of 04/12... Steve Fairhead wrote: Slightly late in responding to this, but hey: Michael Grigoni wrote: William Chivers wrote: Thank you Theo and your team of developers for OpenBSD. snip I also add my thanks to the discussion. I do have a fundamental question to pose however... snip First, let me add my thanks to Theo and the guys for the continued existence of OpenBSD. You and your work *are* appreciated. ...which was in reply to my post of 03/30, which began as follows: Michael Grigoni wrote: William Chivers wrote: Hello, Thank you Theo and your team of developers for OpenBSD. Some people responding to the European Orders thread seem to have lost sight of what OpenBSD is and who develops it. I am a bit of a newbie here (although I have been using computers in my career since 1972)... I also add my thanks to the discussion. I do have a fundamental question to pose however... Sorry for topic drift; I had intended to express thanks for the product and to ask some questions (and raise some points) that had been on my mind for a long time. Michael
Re: European orders - Thank you Theo and your team, some of us appreciate you!
Hello Michael, Apologies, I guess I was irritated that my original post, with the title above and written a few weeks ago, was immediately hijacked back then and my original point was lost. Even Theo responded, not to my point but to the hijack, which was a rather ignorant question. Such is life, others wrote similar emails to my original one so it in the grand scheme of things it does not matter... Bill - William J. Chivers Lecturer in Information Technology School of DCIT Faculty of Science and Information Technology University of Newcastle---Ourimbah Campus PO Box 127, Ourimbah, NSW 2259 Australia CRICOS Provider Number: 00109J phone: +61 2 4349 4473 fax: +61 2 4349 4565 email: william.chiv...@newcastle.edu.au - Michael Grigoni michael.grig...@cybertheque.org 05/01/09 9:55 AM William Chivers wrote: And can I ask you Michael what any of this has to do with my original post? Look at the subject. Why not start your own thread instead of hi-jacking someone else's? I was replying to Steve Fairhead's post of 04/12... Steve Fairhead wrote: Slightly late in responding to this, but hey: Michael Grigoni wrote: William Chivers wrote: Thank you Theo and your team of developers for OpenBSD. snip I also add my thanks to the discussion. I do have a fundamental question to pose however... snip First, let me add my thanks to Theo and the guys for the continued existence of OpenBSD. You and your work *are* appreciated. ...which was in reply to my post of 03/30, which began as follows: Michael Grigoni wrote: William Chivers wrote: Hello, Thank you Theo and your team of developers for OpenBSD. Some people responding to the European Orders thread seem to have lost sight of what OpenBSD is and who develops it. I am a bit of a newbie here (although I have been using computers in my career since 1972)... I also add my thanks to the discussion. I do have a fundamental question to pose however... Sorry for topic drift; I had intended to express thanks for the product and to ask some questions (and raise some points) that had been on my mind for a long time. Michael
Re: European orders(Sweden) - nohup.se
Maxim Bourmistrov wrote: Hello misc@, it has been almost a week since I sent an invoice for OpenBSD 4.5 CD/t-shirt to nohup.se. Did you really mean you sent an _invoice_ to them? Well, there is no answer so far and the webpage is outdated and promoting old releases. Any one from Sweden has ever successfully ordered anything from this site lately? Any other (successful) paths available? No idea about that though, sorry. My 4.5 was ordered via kd85. //maxim
Re: European orders(Sweden) - nohup.se
On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 4:34 PM, Maxim Bourmistrov maxim.bourmist...@unixconn.com wrote: Hello misc@, hi! it has been almost a week since I sent an invoice for OpenBSD 4.5 CD/t-shirt to nohup.se. Well, there is no answer so far and the webpage is outdated and promoting old releases. their webpage doesn't even load for me. have you paid them already? Any one from Sweden has ever successfully ordered anything from this site lately? Any other (successful) paths available? i received my obsd 4.5 set from http://www.openbsdeurope.com got good service from them. //maxim thanks --robert
European orders(Sweden) - nohup.se
Hello misc@, it has been almost a week since I sent an invoice for OpenBSD 4.5 CD/t- shirt to nohup.se. Well, there is no answer so far and the webpage is outdated and promoting old releases. Any one from Sweden has ever successfully ordered anything from this site lately? Any other (successful) paths available? //maxim
Re: European orders
OK then, can someone explain from the start to the end how this was set up ? Please include prices and discounts. I'm still confused about the method and reading again the thread is not helpful. Thanks On 4/18/09, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: I was comming late to the show since I was enjoying my holliday. Please confirm or deny the theory I got from the long thread. I got the ideea that Wim received the CDs from source with 40% from the real price. Then, Wim must return the 60% profit back to the store. no, no no no no. He was supposed to keep 40% for each CD. Instead, he kept 40% + 45%. How I see it is Wim has no profit from strictly CD selling only. To compensate this, Theo allowed Wim to use designs and art from OpenBSD in order to sell the tshirts and puppets. Wim could keep the entire profits from those, and can add soekris stuff. No. I gave him that on top of the 40% he was supposed to get as profit. We expected him to pay the rest back. The facts are simple, if I get it right: if the CD set is $100, Wim will pay $40 to it, sell it on $100 pay $40 to the store and return back $60 to the projects. One can verify quick and easy if Wim did what he agreed with Theo: multiply the number of shipped CDs with price and see if Wim returned the money. Is all this correct ? No. You have it wrong. Go back to reading school. As Theo said many times, do not mix here donations and other stuff. When I saw the picture of Wim for the first time ( http://www.kd85.com/images/Wim.jpg ) I said Oh, what a sale agent picture. This is more like a business than an open source stuff ! But I am not entitled to judge by picture. I'm very sad for this news. Can someone post a picture with Wim's news house. Just to see if it's a good match for the watch. Thanks
Re: European orders
It has already been explained in detail. OK then, can someone explain from the start to the end how this was set up ? Please include prices and discounts. I'm still confused about the method and reading again the thread is not helpful. Thanks On 4/18/09, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: I was comming late to the show since I was enjoying my holliday. Please confirm or deny the theory I got from the long thread. I got the ideea that Wim received the CDs from source with 40% from the real price. Then, Wim must return the 60% profit back to the store. no, no no no no. He was supposed to keep 40% for each CD. Instead, he kept 40% + 45%. How I see it is Wim has no profit from strictly CD selling only. To compensate this, Theo allowed Wim to use designs and art from OpenBSD in order to sell the tshirts and puppets. Wim could keep the entire profits from those, and can add soekris stuff. No. I gave him that on top of the 40% he was supposed to get as profit. We expected him to pay the rest back. The facts are simple, if I get it right: if the CD set is $100, Wim will pay $40 to it, sell it on $100 pay $40 to the store and return back $60 to the projects. One can verify quick and easy if Wim did what he agreed with Theo: multiply the number of shipped CDs with price and see if Wim returned the money. Is all this correct ? No. You have it wrong. Go back to reading school. As Theo said many times, do not mix here donations and other stuff. When I saw the picture of Wim for the first time ( http://www.kd85.com/images/Wim.jpg ) I said Oh, what a sale agent picture. This is more like a business than an open source stuff ! But I am not entitled to judge by picture. I'm very sad for this news. Can someone post a picture with Wim's news house. Just to see if it's a good match for the watch. Thanks
Re: European orders
On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 04:57:35PM +0300, Mihai Popescu B.S. wrote: Can someone post a picture with Wim's news house. Just to see if it's a good match for the watch. Stop picking on him already. Picking on him is childish and is not gonna solve the problem. If you want to do something constructive, then if you have made donations to OpenBSD that went through Wim, talk to Wim and make sure they have reached or will reach the project. That will help. Otherwise, I'd recommend to just stay ouf of this issue. Stefan
Re: European orders
I was comming late to the show since I was enjoying my holliday. Please confirm or deny the theory I got from the long thread. I got the ideea that Wim received the CDs from source with 40% from the real price. Then, Wim must return the 60% profit back to the store. no, no no no no. He was supposed to keep 40% for each CD. Instead, he kept 40% + 45%. How I see it is Wim has no profit from strictly CD selling only. To compensate this, Theo allowed Wim to use designs and art from OpenBSD in order to sell the tshirts and puppets. Wim could keep the entire profits from those, and can add soekris stuff. No. I gave him that on top of the 40% he was supposed to get as profit. We expected him to pay the rest back. The facts are simple, if I get it right: if the CD set is $100, Wim will pay $40 to it, sell it on $100 pay $40 to the store and return back $60 to the projects. One can verify quick and easy if Wim did what he agreed with Theo: multiply the number of shipped CDs with price and see if Wim returned the money. Is all this correct ? No. You have it wrong. Go back to reading school. As Theo said many times, do not mix here donations and other stuff. When I saw the picture of Wim for the first time ( http://www.kd85.com/images/Wim.jpg ) I said Oh, what a sale agent picture. This is more like a business than an open source stuff ! But I am not entitled to judge by picture. I'm very sad for this news. Can someone post a picture with Wim's news house. Just to see if it's a good match for the watch. Thanks
Re: European orders - Thank you Theo and your team, some of us appreciate you!
Because, you know, blind faith has such a solid track record and reputation. On 31/03/2009, David Schulz mailingli...@pg-sec.com wrote: For me, i cant even estimate the time and effort that goes into all the related work and issues for OpenBSD, and thus am more than thankful. OpenBSD sits in every important Corner for two Businesses i am involved in, I could not live without it. I purchase each CD that comes out, have all the Posters, Shirts and Stickers there are, and will continue to get all the new Stuff there is. Whatever Problem there is right now, while i think its a bad Idea to just spread all this in public, ill just blindly take Theo's Side without a doubt. Hopefully OpenBSD, the Project, can navigate this stormy Season without harm and continue to be the best OS there is. On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 12:30:06PM +1100, William Chivers wrote: Hello, Thank you Theo and your team of developers for OpenBSD. Some people responding to the European Orders thread seem to have lost sight of what OpenBSD is and who develops it. I am a bit of a newbie here (although I have been using computers in my career since 1972), but it seems to me that OpenBSD is developed by people who donate their own time and expertise to the project. Theo draws an income but few others do. OpenBSD is given away freely because of the good grace of Theo and the team. If you choose to pay for CDs then this is a donation, is it not? If you do not want to donate, Theo allows you to download for free. Who are these people who think that they can question the motivation, honesty and accounting procedures of the OpenBSD team who give people free access to their project? Here we have a team of people donating their own time to make this fantastic OS available for free and people think they have the right to flame them? Because they donated $50? Give us all a break... Have you heard the proverb about not biting the hand that feeds you? Theo and his team give this OS to us because they choose to do so, not because they have to. They do not have to give it away. Do you have any idea of the salary Theo and the other developers could command at Microsoft, Intel, IBM, Sun, HP, ... God forbid. I am an academic who also runs a consultancy. I intend to start making heavy use of OpenBSD in my teaching and consultancy over the next year or two, not sooner because of various unrelated reasons. Theo, when I make my first dollar using OpenBSD your project will get a percentage, and the same for as long as I use it, and what you choose to do with the money is your business. You can use it to buy food, shelter and even mountain bikes if you wish! As I said, I am new to OpenBSD and my first purchase will be the 4.5 CDs. Go to town, Theo, the $50 is all yours. Please keep doing what you are doing! Many of us appreciate you and what your team do for us. Bill Chivers - William J. Chivers Lecturer in Information Technology School of DCIT Faculty of Science and Information Technology University of Newcastle---Ourimbah Campus PO Box 127, Ourimbah, NSW 2259 Australia CRICOS Provider Number: 00109J phone: +61 2 4349 4473 fax: +61 2 4349 4565 email: william.chiv...@newcastle.edu.au
Re: European orders - Thank you Theo and your team, some of us appreciate you!
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 1:08 AM, Artur Grabowski a...@blahonga.org wrote: Is it troll-week on m...@? if only it could be confined to one week a year...
Re: European orders
On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 12:29:22AM +0930, David Walker wrote: [citation needed] http://bit.ly/3dMFBs Best message on this thread in days. Agreed. Several gems in a row. And probably the last one worth reading. Including this one. All are invited to join me in a nice hot cup of STFU. Subscribed to show my appreciation ... Thanks for the roflcopters. Now to unsubscribe. Don't unsubscribe from the list, just killfile the thread. ;-) Best wishes. CU, Sico. --
Re: European orders
On 13/04/2009, Sico Bruins o...@msh.xs4all.nl wrote: On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 12:29:22AM +0930, David Walker wrote: [citation needed] http://bit.ly/3dMFBs Best message on this thread in days. Agreed. Several gems in a row. And probably the last one worth reading. Including this one. All are invited to join me in a nice hot cup of STFU. Subscribed to show my appreciation ... Thanks for the roflcopters. Now to unsubscribe. Don't unsubscribe from the list, just killfile the thread. ;-) Best wishes. CU, Sico. -- I think I will unsubscribe. Information overload. I like the quiet life. Best wishes.
Re: European orders - Thank you Theo and your team, some of us appreciate you!
Slightly late in responding to this, but hey: Michael Grigoni wrote: William Chivers wrote: Thank you Theo and your team of developers for OpenBSD. Some people responding to the European Orders thread seem to have lost sight of what OpenBSD is and who develops it. I am a bit of a newbie here (although I have been using computers in my career since 1972)... I also add my thanks to the discussion. I do have a fundamental question to pose however. It seems that opensource culture for large projects is driven by featurism and the need to make massive changes incorporated into frequent releases. I come from a background of very long-term stability requirements for APIs and ABIs, performance figures on hardware over long life-cycles and stringent documentation. I do embedded work and expect to maintain a system for decades without massive overhaul. First, let me add my thanks to Theo and the guys for the continued existence of OpenBSD. You and your work *are* appreciated. Second, you mentioned embedded work, which is my main work area. Yes, embedded stuff needs to be stable long-term - but the Internet isn't: threats change, and OpenBSD evolves. A classic solution to that (which I've used) is to simply accept that the legacy embedded stuff should not be directly connected to the Internet, and to use a current (or at least regularly maintained) OpenBSD machine as a gateway. Or, to put it another way: use the right tools for the job. Steve -- http://www.fivetrees.com
Re: European orders
Lazarus Wasbeim lazarus.wasb...@googlemail.com writes: Surely I know something You perhaps don't. Says the guy whose only existence on the net is in this thread. Go away, astroturfer. It's very interesting when one side of the conflict is only supported by throwaway gmail accounts, don't you think? //art
Re: European orders
-Original Message- From: Damien Miller [mailto:d...@mindrot.org] Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 6:14 PM To: ropers Cc: Lazarus Wasbeim; Artur Grabowski; misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: European orders On Thu, 9 Apr 2009, ropers wrote: [citation needed] http://bit.ly/3dMFBs Best message on this thread in days. And probably the last one worth reading. Including this one. All are invited to join me in a nice hot cup of STFU. -- Ed Ahlsen-Girard
Re: European orders
[citation needed] http://bit.ly/3dMFBs Best message on this thread in days. Agreed. Several gems in a row. And probably the last one worth reading. Including this one. All are invited to join me in a nice hot cup of STFU. Subscribed to show my appreciation ... Thanks for the roflcopters. Now to unsubscribe. Best wishes.
Re: European orders
L'haim. It's quite amazing how low these who calls themselves developers can go at pouring dirt all over somebody they were shaking hands with just moments ago. Seemingly it is no problem turning backs and calling names as soon as somebody pulls a tiny little string and whispers a tiny little lie in their ear. But luckily there is the greate and awesome OpenBSD project that keeps these people occupied and away from the rest of the intarwebbs. Let us all pray for it and pitch a buck so that it continues to protect the all evil and hostile intarwebb from these so called individuals. ... and God bless my friends.
Re: European orders
Lazarus Wasbeim lazarus.wasb...@googlemail.com writes: L'haim. It's quite amazing how low these who calls themselves developers can go at pouring dirt all over somebody they were shaking hands with just moments ago. [...] ... and God bless my friends. Not everyone believes in turning the other cheek. //art
Re: European orders
On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Artur Grabowski a...@blahonga.org wrote: Lazarus Wasbeim lazarus.wasb...@googlemail.com writes: L'haim. It's quite amazing how low these who calls themselves developers can go at pouring dirt all over somebody they were shaking hands with just moments ago. [...] ... and God bless my friends. Not everyone believes in turning the other cheek. Perhaps you are not aware of the true meaning of that metaphore. It was a custom for romans to slap the jews with their left hand as to signify them being not worthy humane treatment as being hit with the right arm. Thus the saying turn the other chick as in if you going to hit me then hit me as a human equal to yourself.
Re: European orders
On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 04:13:37PM +0200, Lazarus Wasbeim wrote: | Perhaps you are not aware of the true meaning of that metaphore. | It was a custom for romans to slap the jews with their left hand | as to signify them being not worthy humane treatment as | being hit with the right arm. Thus the saying turn the other chick | as in if you going to hit me then hit me as a human equal to yourself. I would love it if you'd turn the other chick. Thanks! Paul 'WEiRD' de Weerd -- [++-]+++.+++[---].+++[+ +++-].++[-]+.--.[-] http://www.weirdnet.nl/
Re: European orders
This is a bit off topic IMHO and misc isn't a place to discuss history or fairytales or to bitch about stuff like this. We just went through a week of he said she said shit on the Wim/Eruopean Orders scandal, can we not start another one. We already have enough noobs on here asking how to mount and run gdm without this crap filling it up /noise -Original Message- From: owner-m...@openbsd.org [mailto:owner-m...@openbsd.org] On Behalf Of Lazarus Wasbeim Sent: 08 April 2009 15:14 To: Artur Grabowski; misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: European orders On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Artur Grabowski a...@blahonga.org wrote: Lazarus Wasbeim lazarus.wasb...@googlemail.com writes: L'haim. It's quite amazing how low these who calls themselves developers can go at pouring dirt all over somebody they were shaking hands with just moments ago. [...] ... and God bless my friends. Not everyone believes in turning the other cheek. Perhaps you are not aware of the true meaning of that metaphore. It was a custom for romans to slap the jews with their left hand as to signify them being not worthy humane treatment as being hit with the right arm. Thus the saying turn the other chick as in if you going to hit me then hit me as a human equal to yourself.
Re: European orders
Blah blah blah, who cares On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 04:13:37PM +0200, Lazarus Wasbeim wrote: On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Artur Grabowski a...@blahonga.org wrote: Lazarus Wasbeim lazarus.wasb...@googlemail.com writes: L'haim. It's quite amazing how low these who calls themselves developers can go at pouring dirt all over somebody they were shaking hands with just moments ago. [...] ... and God bless my friends. Not everyone believes in turning the other cheek. Perhaps you are not aware of the true meaning of that metaphore. It was a custom for romans to slap the jews with their left hand as to signify them being not worthy humane treatment as being hit with the right arm. Thus the saying turn the other chick as in if you going to hit me then hit me as a human equal to yourself.
Re: European orders
On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 4:27 PM, Lazarus Wasbeim lazarus.wasb...@googlemail.com wrote: L'haim. It's quite amazing how low these who calls themselves developers can go at pouring dirt all over somebody they were shaking hands with just moments ago. Well, you thought Cusamano was your friend. -- You live, you learn. The Sopranos. Seemingly it is no problem turning backs and calling names as soon as somebody pulls a tiny little string and whispers a tiny little lie in their ear. well, considering those mails that were revealed, i'd say some one could see that coming sooner or later. the things were just got named openly. But luckily there is the greate and awesome OpenBSD project that keeps these people occupied and away from the rest of the intarwebbs. Let us all pray for it and pitch a buck so that it continues to protect the all evil and hostile intarwebb from these so called individuals. are you directly involved? do you know all the details? if both answers are no, then what's with that rudeness in your comments? those sound sound quite hypocritical, since you go pouring dirt at people you don't seem to know that well, regarding a situation whose details you also don't know. i'd pray a bit to be free of receiving such comments from so called... erhm, how are you so called again? but of course, make those bucks coming :-)
Re: European orders
On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 6:01 PM, Denis Doroshenko denis.doroshe...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 4:27 PM, Lazarus Wasbeim lazarus.wasb...@googlemail.com wrote: L'haim. It's quite amazing how low these who calls themselves developers can go at pouring dirt all over somebody they were shaking hands with just moments ago. Well, you thought Cusamano was your friend. -- You live, you learn. The Sopranos. I would prefer a quote from Britney Spears please. Thank You very much. Seemingly it is no problem turning backs and calling names as soon as somebody pulls a tiny little string and whispers a tiny little lie in their ear. well, considering those mails that were revealed, i'd say some one could see that coming sooner or later. the things were just got named openly. What has been posted from the acqusing part is full of lies. It's a pity you can not read it. Tiny little lies are used to makemuch bigger half-truth look more plausible. Add to that a horde of screaming masses and what do you get? Propaganda. Can a sane person use propaganda as a basis for theirs opinion about and relationship with others? No. I would say No. But luckily there is the greate and awesome OpenBSD project that keeps these people occupied and away from the rest of the intarwebbs. Let us all pray for it and pitch a buck so that it continues to protect the all evil and hostile intarwebb from these so called individuals. are you directly involved? do you know all the details? Surely I know something You perhaps don't. More importantly I can see where the lies are. But on a positive note let's move on. Sorry folks I've gotten You all excited about it again. Just felt as perhaps maybe just a chance that this has gotten somebody doubt something.
Re: European orders
On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 06:24:26PM +0200, Lazarus Wasbeim wrote: On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 6:01 PM, Denis Doroshenko denis.doroshe...@gmail.com Well, you thought Cusamano was your friend. -- You live, you learn. The Sopranos. I would prefer a quote from Britney Spears please. Thank You very much. If you loan a friend $20 and you never see the friend again, it was worth it. oh, sorry, that's not Britney. It's Britney bitch! What has been posted from the acqusing part is full of lies. It's a pity you can not read it. care to elaborate? Surely I know something You perhaps don't. More importantly I can see where the lies are. But on a positive note let's move on. classic troll move. -- jake...@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
Re: European orders
On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 12:24 PM, Lazarus Wasbeim lazarus.wasb...@googlemail.com wrote: What has been posted from the acqusing part is full of lies. It's a pity you can not read it. Tiny little lies are used to makemuch bigger half-truth look more plausible. Add to that a horde of screaming masses and what do you get? Propaganda. Can a sane person use propaganda as a basis for theirs opinion about and relationship with others? No. I would say No. But luckily there is the greate and awesome OpenBSD project that keeps these people occupied and away from the rest of the intarwebbs. Let us all pray for it and pitch a buck so that it continues to protect the all evil and hostile intarwebb from these so called individuals. are you directly involved? do you know all the details? Surely I know something You perhaps don't. More importantly I can see where the lies are. And where are the lies? For those of us uninitiated in whatever you are, cite your science please. -Nick
Re: European orders
On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 7:24 PM, Lazarus Wasbeim lazarus.wasb...@googlemail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 6:01 PM, Denis Doroshenko denis.doroshe...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 4:27 PM, Lazarus Wasbeim lazarus.wasb...@googlemail.com wrote: L'haim. It's quite amazing how low these who calls themselves developers can go at pouring dirt all over somebody they were shaking hands with just moments ago. Well, you thought Cusamano was your friend. -- You live, you learn. The Sopranos. I would prefer a quote from Britney Spears please. Thank You very much. sorry to disappoint you, but there'll be none. makes me wonder though what BS could be quoted from BS... well, considering those mails that were revealed, i'd say some one could see that coming sooner or later. the things were just got named openly. What has been posted from the acqusing part is full of lies. It's a pity you can not read it. Tiny little lies are used to makemuch bigger half-truth look more plausible. Add to that a horde of screaming masses and what do you get? Propaganda. Can a sane person use propaganda as a basis for theirs opinion about and relationship with others? No. I would say No. those are some heavy claims. can you back it up with any evidence? considering your i know something coming below, i can say that it is your propaganda above. and oh so sorry, but your propaganda has next to none credibility comparing to Theo's one. are you directly involved? do you know all the details? Surely I know something You perhaps don't. so you know *something*. well the question was worded quite clearly and you fail to answer that simple question. the answers seem to be no. More importantly I can see where the lies are. huh, somewhere i've already heard that... I see through the lies of the Jedi. I do not fear the dark side, as you do. at the beginning the stuff from Theo might look as BS and Win even had setup a page with accounting info, which now seems to be accounting info. but the more details come out, the more it backs up what Theo said. the page still mentions that funeral money, which Wim himself agreed to have had nothing to do with donations whatsoever. and it's just one piece. But on a positive note let's move on. Sorry folks I've gotten You all excited about it again. Just felt as perhaps maybe just a chance that this has gotten somebody doubt something. since i don't have all the details at my hands, i decide by what is available up to date. it might change still, however with the current effort from Wim as it is, that seems very unlikely.
Re: European orders
2009/4/8 Lazarus Wasbeim lazarus.wasb...@googlemail.com: On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Artur Grabowski a...@blahonga.org wrote: Lazarus Wasbeim lazarus.wasb...@googlemail.com writes: L'haim. It's quite amazing how low these who calls themselves developers can go at pouring dirt all over somebody they were shaking hands with just moments ago. [...] ... and God bless my friends. Not everyone believes in turning the other cheek. Perhaps you are not aware of the true meaning of that metaphore. It was a custom for romans to slap the jews with their left hand as to signify them being not worthy humane treatment as being hit with the right arm. Thus the saying turn the other chick as in if you going to hit me then hit me as a human equal to yourself. [citation needed]
Re: European orders
2009/4/8 Lazarus Wasbeim lazarus.wasb...@googlemail.com: Surely I know something You perhaps don't. More importantly I can see where the lies are. But on a positive note let's move on. Sorry folks I've gotten You all excited about it again. Just felt as perhaps maybe just a chance that this has gotten somebody doubt something. At least you admit that you're just spreading FUD. Alright: Tell your father that if there's something he wants to tell your mother, he can come here tell her in person. You can also tell him that she's keeping her CD and art collections, because they're hers. regards, --ropers
Re: European orders
On Thu, 9 Apr 2009, ropers wrote: [citation needed] http://bit.ly/3dMFBs
Re: European orders
On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 09:14:03 +1000 (EST), Damien Miller wrote: On Thu, 9 Apr 2009, ropers wrote: [citation needed] http://bit.ly/3dMFBs Enough of the pix. Send me a real one! It's not far and I'm just a few km from BK. GRAD *** NOTE *** Please DO NOT CC me. I am subscribed to the list. Mail to the sender address that does not originate at the list server is tarpitted. The reply-to: address is provided for those who feel compelled to reply off list. Thankyou. Rod/ /earth: write failed, file system is full cp: /earth/creatures: No space left on device
Re: Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
On Thu, 2 Apr 2009, Bob Beck wrote: Others are trying to do it too, but they are just more quiet about it. And then there's the other catagory... the breeders... No, you're forgetting the third category - the titanium clipped, whose ungrateful spawn are now 18 and will soon be old enough to be capable of leaving the house... Quick marco.. snip 'em before it gets worse! Yeah, them damn breeders, I've been saying that for years, but then people always blamed it on radical feminism. :-) diana
Re: Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
Theo de Raadt wrote: When you buy a CD from the Computer shop, 100% ends up in the Computer Shop accounts. Which is an option likely to make most everyone all around happy, but maybe not so practical for outside of North America. Setting up a branch inside the Euro zone might be worth considering to reduce the entropy for donations/CD sales to AT, BE, CY, FI, FR, DE, GR, IE, IT, LU, MT, NL, PT, SK, SI, and ES. Even though the pound is weak, today 1 GBP = 1.09366 EUR, it does not officially accept Euro. Border areas in other countries often accept as well, though sometimes only unofficially. Regards, -Lars
Re: Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
On 2009-04-03, Lars Noodin larsnoo...@openoffice.org wrote: Theo de Raadt wrote: When you buy a CD from the Computer shop, 100% ends up in the Computer Shop accounts. Which is an option likely to make most everyone all around happy, but maybe not so practical for outside of North America. Setting up a branch inside the Euro zone might be worth considering to reduce the entropy for donations/CD sales to AT, BE, CY, FI, FR, DE, GR, IE, IT, LU, MT, NL, PT, SK, SI, and ES. Euro zone donations are best sent to Theo's bank account in Germany, http://www.openbsd.org/bank-donation.html For UK donations it's usually more sensible to use PayPal or credit cards, http://www.openbsd.org/donations.html, since UK to euro-zone bank transfers are so expensive (cheapest is probably #8 for tipanet transfers, other ways can be much more). For CD orders there are plenty of euro-zone resellers listed on http://www.openbsd.org/orders.html, and though openbsdeurope.com is in the UK the prices are in euros. Just like the Nabootique. (and since it's EU you won't get randomly hit by charges for import duty).
Re: Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
2009/4/3, Stuart Henderson s...@spacehopper.org: cards, http://www.openbsd.org/donations.html, since UK to euro-zone bank transfers are so expensive (cheapest is probably #8 for tipanet transfers, other ways can be much more). The UK is in pe, so -transfers to and from the UK should cost (next to) nothing; all the usual rules for the zone apply. Best Martin
Re: Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
On 2009-04-03, Martin Schrvder mar...@oneiros.de wrote: 2009/4/3, Stuart Henderson s...@spacehopper.org: cards, http://www.openbsd.org/donations.html, since UK to euro-zone bank transfers are so expensive (cheapest is probably #8 for tipanet transfers, other ways can be much more). The UK is in pe, so -transfers to and from the UK should cost (next to) nothing; all the usual rules for the zone apply. the rule is not about the actual cost, it's that SEPA transfers in euros should cost no more than domestic transfers in euros. I haven't checked, but I suppose the banks handle this by making a high charge for domestic transfers on their euro-denominated accounts (which almost nobody has, anyway)...
Re: European orders
I've not been to many OpenBSD events in Europe, but at most of the ones I attended, I've been behind Wim's booth, selling OpenBSD merchandise to help the project. The thing we sold most were T-shirts, and Wim made everyone believe that by buying T-shirts they would financially support the project. Now if you ever tried to have T-shirts printed in small quantities, you'll realise that a EUR 15,-- T-shirt won't make you much more profit than EUR 2,-- or so. But it's still some money and the design of the T-shirts is nice enough that people will actually wear them and promote OpenBSD that way... ...except that it turns out that the profits of the T-shirt never went to the project. Theo allowed distributors to sell the shirts for a profit to become strong distributors of CD's (that are much more profitable). Of course I paid for going to these events completely out of my own pocket, and even though the Netherlands is a small country, most events are further away from my home than Wim's, while Wim paid for his travel expenses out of OpenBSD (donation) money. I feel used. Other developers must feel even more used, especially those who helped packing CD's for distribution which now turn out to have contributed the project far less than they should have. Mark
Re: European orders
Of course I paid for going to these events completely out of my own pocket, and even though the Netherlands is a small country, most events are further away from my home than Wim's, while Wim paid for his travel expenses out of OpenBSD (donation) money. On his web page Wim sort of now claims that his travel expenses were paid out of donations. Except I never authorized for Wim to spend donations on his own travel expenses. He has no mails which authorize that, in fact I found some very early mails which specifically do not permit that. He was given tshirt and poster revenue to do his own business growth, and he decided to start going to events out of his pocket. I have mails saying he can connect donations for the project there. Wim has never been the project; KD85 has never been the project.
Re: Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
Hi! On Fri, Apr 03, 2009 at 10:18:30AM +, Stuart Henderson wrote: On 2009-04-03, Martin Schrvder mar...@oneiros.de wrote: 2009/4/3, Stuart Henderson s...@spacehopper.org: cards, http://www.openbsd.org/donations.html, since UK to euro-zone bank transfers are so expensive (cheapest is probably #8 for tipanet transfers, other ways can be much more). The UK is in pe, so -transfers to and from the UK should cost (next to) nothing; all the usual rules for the zone apply. the rule is not about the actual cost, it's that SEPA transfers in euros should cost no more than domestic transfers in euros. I haven't checked, but I suppose the banks handle this by making a high charge for domestic transfers on their euro-denominated accounts (which almost nobody has, anyway)... *nods* But IIRC it can be expensive between the UK and the Euro zone because the UK doesn't have the Euro. I've understood the rules in the way that the regulations apply only to transfers between countries that are both in the EU *and* that have the Euro. I.e. not for the Vatican, or for the UK. Kind regards, Hannah.
Re: Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
2009/4/4, Hannah Schroeter han...@schlund.de: But IIRC it can be expensive between the UK and the Euro zone because the UK doesn't have the Euro. I've understood the rules in the way that the regulations apply only to transfers between countries that are both in the EU *and* that have the Euro. I.e. not for the Vatican, or for the UK. No, they apply to the EU. Transfers to the UK in should cost only the currency conversion; same for outgoing transfers in . See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro#Payments_clearing.2C_electronic_funds_trans fer http://www.euro.gov.uk/crossborder.asp Best Martin
Re: Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
Theo, as far as i am concerned (and most likely the majority of OpenBSD users) there is no need for you to justify yourself (or any other developer) in public. The product (OpenBSD) speeks for itself. Alf P.S.: To me the sentence about hiking on Wim's page looks like a silly rethoric trick that gives the rest of his text an objectionable taste. On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 10:11:07PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: So what if it's founder lives a mountain biking/hiking lifestyle? There are people being misled that I pay for this extravagant lifestyle out of donations. Hah. Shame on those people who spread that rumour, and also shame on those who are so easily deceived. I hike near conferences that I am invited to; flights paid for. I hike near hackathons that I must attend with developers -- hackathons tend to be near hiking areas but I am not alone in preferring this (our hackathon locations are otherwise chosen for cheap accomodation with free internet2... perhaps internet2 usage is correleted to good terrain..). Once a year I pay with my hard earned salary for a trip to hike somewhere. Then one further time a year I use the reward points -- from all my other flights and hackathon hotel bills and developer flights paid with donation money -- to get to another hiking destination. Yes... I have to take time off to do this, but as many of you know when I get back from a trip I go through all the thousands of mails I received and the project moves on. And between hikes in a foreign country I find insecure ways to partially get in touch a bit and some developers really hate that. I work hard. When I don't hike, and especially during pre-release times, I sometimes don't get outside for days at a time except on forced 10km runs. Extravagant? No. Just a life choice. I have had people accuse me privately of this. I hope others are not so easily deceived. Trust me, with the OpenBSD donations are a loss. Just look at this page, and estimate the hotel bills: http://www.openbsd.org/hackathons.html After you estimate those numbers, where would I find money to spend on even a slurpee? Gimme a fucking break... Donations help a lot, but they are not the whole picture. That is why we are so eager -- as a project -- get the money that Wim has taken from us, because it will help OpenBSD run more hackathons. The systems code you are running, almost half of it came from hackathons. If I can give him that and he can continue to provide this wonderful product for free, I'm happy to help him live his lifestyle (even if he doesn't play well with others at times). It's a deal. It's too bad the project doesn't have greater financial backing to allow more development of the OS goodness we enjoy--and also allow more OpenBSD people to live a Theo-like lifestyle, if they so choose. Others are trying to do it too, but they are just more quiet about it. And then there's the other catagory... the breeders...
Re: Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
On 02.04-09:49, Alf Schlichting wrote: [ ... ] as far as i am concerned (and most likely the majority of OpenBSD users) there is no need for you to justify yourself (or any other developer) in public. The product (OpenBSD) speeks for itself. +1
Re: Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
+ 1 here Not only the product speaks for itself, but the fact that you develop it so openly and allow free downloads. Thanks Alf, that is what I tried to say in my long-winded message a couple of days ago. - William J. Chivers Lecturer in Information Technology School of DCIT Faculty of Science and Information Technology University of Newcastle---Ourimbah Campus PO Box 127, Ourimbah, NSW 2259 Australia CRICOS Provider Number: 00109J phone: +61 2 4349 4473 fax: +61 2 4349 4565 email: william.chiv...@newcastle.edu.au - Alf Schlichting a.schlicht...@lemarit.com 04/02/09 6:49 PM Theo, as far as i am concerned (and most likely the majority of OpenBSD users) there is no need for you to justify yourself (or any other developer) in public. The product (OpenBSD) speeks for itself. Alf P.S.: To me the sentence about hiking on Wim's page looks like a silly rethoric trick that gives the rest of his text an objectionable taste. On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 10:11:07PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: So what if it's founder lives a mountain biking/hiking lifestyle? There are people being misled that I pay for this extravagant lifestyle out of donations. Hah. Shame on those people who spread that rumour, and also shame on those who are so easily deceived. I hike near conferences that I am invited to; flights paid for. I hike near hackathons that I must attend with developers -- hackathons tend to be near hiking areas but I am not alone in preferring this (our hackathon locations are otherwise chosen for cheap accomodation with free internet2... perhaps internet2 usage is correleted to good terrain..). Once a year I pay with my hard earned salary for a trip to hike somewhere. Then one further time a year I use the reward points -- from all my other flights and hackathon hotel bills and developer flights paid with donation money -- to get to another hiking destination. Yes... I have to take time off to do this, but as many of you know when I get back from a trip I go through all the thousands of mails I received and the project moves on. And between hikes in a foreign country I find insecure ways to partially get in touch a bit and some developers really hate that. I work hard. When I don't hike, and especially during pre-release times, I sometimes don't get outside for days at a time except on forced 10km runs. Extravagant? No. Just a life choice. I have had people accuse me privately of this. I hope others are not so easily deceived. Trust me, with the OpenBSD donations are a loss. Just look at this page, and estimate the hotel bills: http://www.openbsd.org/hackathons.html After you estimate those numbers, where would I find money to spend on even a slurpee? Gimme a fucking break... Donations help a lot, but they are not the whole picture. That is why we are so eager -- as a project -- get the money that Wim has taken from us, because it will help OpenBSD run more hackathons. The systems code you are running, almost half of it came from hackathons. If I can give him that and he can continue to provide this wonderful product for free, I'm happy to help him live his lifestyle (even if he doesn't play well with others at times). It's a deal. It's too bad the project doesn't have greater financial backing to allow more development of the OS goodness we enjoy--and also allow more OpenBSD people to live a Theo-like lifestyle, if they so choose. Others are trying to do it too, but they are just more quiet about it. And then there's the other catagory... the breeders...
Re: Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
The product (OpenBSD) speeks for itself. +1 -- Thanks, Jordi Espasa Clofent
Re: Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
Others are trying to do it too, but they are just more quiet about it. And then there's the other catagory... the breeders... I swear it was by accident!!
Re: Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
Having some sort of Report once a year about Donation Money or even also the CD and Shirt Sales money and where it goes would help to shut up even the most ignorant. Reports possibly ala' FreeBSD Foundation; but if not, not; i personally have no doubt that you are the last Guy how would enrich himself on Money donated to OpenBSD, screw that. Out of donations received by me, a rough accounting. I am estimating parts of it because I cannot make time to dig through the file. c2k8 [the foundation paid for the hackspace/sleepspace] ~7 developers had their travel paid, $11,000 p2k8 11 developers paid their own travel 2 had their travel paid from donations - $1800 hotel - a bit less than $5000, if I recall h2k8 11 developers paid their own travel 5 had their travel paid from donations - $4000 hotel - a bit less than $8000 n2k9 16 developers paid their own travel 3 had their travel paid from donations - $3000 hotel - a bit more than $8000, if I recall right c2k9 [the foundation will pay for the hackspace/sleepspace] 6 developers flights already paid - $10,000 Anyone upset about their donations being spent that way? If you want to know how we all benefited from the spending donnation money on the hackathons please look at http://www.openbsd.org/plus.html and follow the release links at the top to; bracket the hackathons before the release, and you can guess what happened at a particular hackathon. I don't know how big people think the donations are, but sure, it is substantial. Yet it is not as much as these amounts above. The remaining is paid out of my salary, and yes, my salary is CD sales dependent. And yes, everyone including Nadine thinks that is a ridiculous situation, but so it is. As can be seen above, other expenses are handled by the OpenBSD Foundation, which is financially entirely independent of me. I have no say over what they do. Like you all, I can simply thank them for accepting contributions in the way they are fiscally permitted to, and then helping to pay for the things which they deem worthy. For instance, the big hackathons are run by them. Hopefully some smaller ones eventually, too. When you see me in another thread mentioning that Wim only transferring 1000+2402 EUR donation money to the project for the last 5 years or so, you can get a clearer picture. Since all the other things he bought for OpenBSD over the the last 5+ years have now been charged back to the Computer Shop, it is just not plausible that this is the sum of donations from Europe. Is Europe that cheap, or is there another explanation? A note -- this money is received as gifts. Then it is spent against project things, and each expenditure of course it generates a receipt. But that receipt cannot be written off against anyone's taxes. And it isn't. Doing so would be fraud. It isn't an expense since there is no income. It is a zero sum game, except for the Aeroplan points :)
Re: Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
On Wed, 01 Apr 2009 22:11:07 -0600 Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: I work hard. I know you do! -- I look at your work every day. As promised, I won't comment publicly on the situation but I hope you won't be offended if a no-code nobody like me gives you a reminder; You have absolutely no reason to let either the ignorance or malice of others troll you into divulging or defending any details of your personal life. Your private life is your own choice, and no one deserves to be told anything about it. What you decide to share about your life, is also your choice, but I *hate* seeing you provoked into both revealing your life to correct misinformation and trying to defend your life choices. Liars will lie, and fools think they're smart; publicly correcting their technical mistakes is one thing, but publicly correcting their mistakes regarding your personal life is a completely different matter. You do not owe anything to anyone, particularly about your personal life, so please don't let the fools and liars goad you into giving more than you already give. Kind Regards, J.C. Roberts
Re: Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
On Thu, 2 Apr 2009 10:16:31 -0700 J.C. Roberts list-...@designtools.org wrote: On Wed, 01 Apr 2009 22:11:07 -0600 Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: I work hard. I know you do! -- I look at your work every day. I use said work every day. The results I see and the work being put into this project is more than enough for me to want to donate. I don't care what the project does with my money; it was a gift, a thank you for your hard work (and a hope that it will continue). However, when I buy a CD-set it is not for the product (that's available online anyway) but in the belief that OpenBSD will benefit from my purchase. When that seems to have not been the case with KD85, I really appreciate Theo taking the time to explain the situation. He does not have to, but doing so is, IMO, being respectful and patient towards the people donating. At any rate, this whole thing does not change anything for me. I just feel sad for the OpenBSD project that they did not get what they expected from CD sales in Europe.
Re: Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
Does anybody here remember the sound and fury quite a few years back when Theo (or someone) posted a picture of his new bike shortly after a release -- I can't seem to find it in the archives. Anyhow, it's not all that important. The point is that suckers like me -- I've made a couple of paltry donations, but mostly I've just taken years of awesome code from Theo and the other developers -- really don't have any say in how the project operates. Giving money to OpenBSD doesn't put you on the board of directors -- hell, it doesn't even make you a share holder. You give your *donations* to Theo and expect -- in good faith -- that he'll spend them wisely to further OpenBSD development; this doesn't entitle you to demand reporting on exactly how they're spent. If you don't like it, then stop donating. When it comes to his *salary*, Theo is entitled to spend his money however he damned well pleases -- being an open source developer does not condemn one to a life of asceticism (not that hiking/backpacking/mountain biking is exactly an extravagant lifestyle anyhow). It's a shame that there's a rift between Wim and Theo -- I've never dealt with Wim on any level, but like pretty much everyone else here has had good impressions about him over the years. I could hope that this issue will be resolved to everyone's satisfaction, but I'm realistic about Theo's abrasive nature, so I'm not holding my breath ;) Regardless, the project will no doubt move forward, and beer-loving Europeans (and Americans)* will no doubt still be able to get the software one way or another and give their money to the project in some form or fashion. *Canadians apparently fall in this group too. On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 9:11 PM, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: So what if it's founder lives a mountain biking/hiking lifestyle? There are people being misled that I pay for this extravagant lifestyle out of donations. Hah. Shame on those people who spread that rumour, and also shame on those who are so easily deceived. I hike near conferences that I am invited to; flights paid for. I hike near hackathons that I must attend with developers -- hackathons tend to be near hiking areas but I am not alone in preferring this (our hackathon locations are otherwise chosen for cheap accomodation with free internet2... perhaps internet2 usage is correleted to good terrain..). Once a year I pay with my hard earned salary for a trip to hike somewhere. Then one further time a year I use the reward points -- from all my other flights and hackathon hotel bills and developer flights paid with donation money -- to get to another hiking destination. Yes... I have to take time off to do this, but as many of you know when I get back from a trip I go through all the thousands of mails I received and the project moves on. And between hikes in a foreign country I find insecure ways to partially get in touch a bit and some developers really hate that. I work hard. When I don't hike, and especially during pre-release times, I sometimes don't get outside for days at a time except on forced 10km runs. Extravagant? No. Just a life choice. I have had people accuse me privately of this. I hope others are not so easily deceived. Trust me, with the OpenBSD donations are a loss. Just look at this page, and estimate the hotel bills: http://www.openbsd.org/hackathons.html After you estimate those numbers, where would I find money to spend on even a slurpee? Gimme a fucking break... Donations help a lot, but they are not the whole picture. That is why we are so eager -- as a project -- get the money that Wim has taken from us, because it will help OpenBSD run more hackathons. The systems code you are running, almost half of it came from hackathons. If I can give him that and he can continue to provide this wonderful product for free, I'm happy to help him live his lifestyle (even if he doesn't play well with others at times). It's a deal. It's too bad the project doesn't have greater financial backing to allow more development of the OS goodness we enjoy--and also allow more OpenBSD people to live a Theo-like lifestyle, if they so choose. Others are trying to do it too, but they are just more quiet about it. And then there's the other catagory... the breeders... -- Systems Programmer, Principal Electrical Computer Engineering The University of Arizona ma...@arizona.edu
Re: Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
Others are trying to do it too, but they are just more quiet about it. And then there's the other catagory... the breeders... No, you're forgetting the third category - the titanium clipped, whose ungrateful spawn are now 18 and will soon be old enough to be capable of leaving the house... Quick marco.. snip 'em before it gets worse!
Re: Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
Work hard, play harder. Oh what, just because you are you, you dont get to have a life? Fuck that. No need to justify anything in that regard. +1, as others have done already. I regret not having been able to donate the last 18 months or so, maybe longer. But it's only because of my personal financial issues. Hopefully I'll get back to buying multiple sets and donating cash. On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 10:32 PM, David Schulz mailingli...@pg-sec.com wrote: Work hard, play harder. Oh what, just because you are you, you dont get to have a life? Fuck that. No need to justify anything in that regard. Hopefull even after all this you and other Devs still have all the motivation it takes to keep making the OpenBSD Project better and better; Having some sort of Report once a year about Donation Money or even also the CD and Shirt Sales money and where it goes would help to shut up even the most ignorant. Reports possibly ala' FreeBSD Foundation; but if not, not; i personally have no doubt that you are the last Guy how would enrich himself on Money donated to OpenBSD, screw that. regards, David On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 10:11:07PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: So what if it's founder lives a mountain biking/hiking lifestyle? There are people being misled that I pay for this extravagant lifestyle out of donations. Hah. Shame on those people who spread that rumour, and also shame on those who are so easily deceived. I hike near conferences that I am invited to; flights paid for. I hike near hackathons that I must attend with developers -- hackathons tend to be near hiking areas but I am not alone in preferring this (our hackathon locations are otherwise chosen for cheap accomodation with free internet2... perhaps internet2 usage is correleted to good terrain..). Once a year I pay with my hard earned salary for a trip to hike somewhere. Then one further time a year I use the reward points -- from all my other flights and hackathon hotel bills and developer flights paid with donation money -- to get to another hiking destination. Yes... I have to take time off to do this, but as many of you know when I get back from a trip I go through all the thousands of mails I received and the project moves on. And between hikes in a foreign country I find insecure ways to partially get in touch a bit and some developers really hate that. I work hard. When I don't hike, and especially during pre-release times, I sometimes don't get outside for days at a time except on forced 10km runs. Extravagant? No. Just a life choice. I have had people accuse me privately of this. I hope others are not so easily deceived. Trust me, with the OpenBSD donations are a loss. Just look at this page, and estimate the hotel bills: http://www.openbsd.org/hackathons.html After you estimate those numbers, where would I find money to spend on even a slurpee? Gimme a fucking break... Donations help a lot, but they are not the whole picture. That is why we are so eager -- as a project -- get the money that Wim has taken from us, because it will help OpenBSD run more hackathons. The systems code you are running, almost half of it came from hackathons. If I can give him that and he can continue to provide this wonderful product for free, I'm happy to help him live his lifestyle (even if he doesn't play well with others at times). It's a deal. It's too bad the project doesn't have greater financial backing to allow more development of the OS goodness we enjoy--and also allow more OpenBSD people to live a Theo-like lifestyle, if they so choose. Others are trying to do it too, but they are just more quiet about it. -- 2nd Annual R2 Poker Ride http://lodesertprotosites.org/sites.html Dethink to survive - Mclusky
Re: Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: I don't know how big people think the donations are, but sure, it is substantial. Yet it is not as much as these amounts above. The remaining is paid out of my salary, and yes, my salary is CD sales dependent. And yes, everyone including Nadine thinks that is a ridiculous situation, but so it is. OK, this gives me more impetus to buy CDs (I buy it off and on), but quick question - when we buy CDs, and we donate - does that go straight to you (ie, is part/whole of that your salary too, or is it pigeon holed for something else?) I work for a living, and would hate to see my income drop. I would much prefer to be able to help send things along the right way. Thanks. -- http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity. -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation. Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks factory where smoking on the job is permitted. -- Gene Spafford learn french: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1G-3laJJP0feature=related
Re: Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 9:21 PM, bofh goodb...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: I don't know how big people think the donations are, but sure, it is substantial. Yet it is not as much as these amounts above. The remaining is paid out of my salary, and yes, my salary is CD sales dependent. And yes, everyone including Nadine thinks that is a ridiculous situation, but so it is. OK, this gives me more impetus to buy CDs (I buy it off and on), but quick question - when we buy CDs, and we donate - does that go straight to you (ie, is part/whole of that your salary too, or is it pigeon holed for something else?) I work for a living, and would hate to see my income drop. I would much prefer to be able to help send things along the right way. Thanks. I think if you look through the 140 or so posts of this thread (i.e., the European orders thread) you'll find your answer, rather than asking Theo to divulge even more private info. -- http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity. -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation. Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks factory where smoking on the job is permitted. -- Gene Spafford learn french: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1G-3laJJP0feature=related -- www.nealhogan.net www.lambdaserver.com
Re: Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: I don't know how big people think the donations are, but sure, it is substantial. Yet it is not as much as these amounts above. The remaining is paid out of my salary, and yes, my salary is CD sales dependent. And yes, everyone including Nadine thinks that is a ridiculous situation, but so it is. OK, this gives me more impetus to buy CDs (I buy it off and on), but quick question - when we buy CDs, and we donate - does that go straight to you (ie, is part/whole of that your salary too, or is it pigeon holed for something else?) When you buy a CD from a reseller like Wim, we apparently lose a lot because his previous debt is still unserviced. When you buy a CD from a reseller serviced by Wim, we also used to lose, but more recently we don't lose, and it comes out to around 60%. When you buy a CD from any other reseller who buys direct from the Computer Shop, 60% goes to the Computer Shop. When you buy a CD from the Computer shop, 100% ends up in the Computer Shop accounts. OK, so what happens after that. The Computer Shop deducts the costs of making the production, which includes the artwork, music, the actual disk prodution cost, and other parts of the building the package. Then they subtract a service fee, shall we say, for fullfillment of orders and all that kind of stuff. After that, they pay me a salary, and I suppose, save a bit more in some other way for the rainy days when CD sales are lower. Or as they had to do over the last few years -- they pay extra from a previous rainy day fund because a distributor has not paid his bills on time. I work for a living, and would hate to see my income drop. I would much prefer to be able to help send things along the right way. Yup. Definately.
Re: European orders
Where do they come from? Suddenly there's this astroturfing campaign about... what? forcing Theo to do business with someone he has no intention of doing business with anymore? If you're really so butthurt, sue for defamation. Those fanboy mails from total nobodies are just retarded. //art Daniel Seuffert i...@praxis123.de writes: Theo de Raadt wrote: Mr. de Raadt, you are the guy that has accused Mr. Vandeputte in public. You are the guy that failed to put any evicence on the public table. Stop whining, show your evidence like Mr. Vandeputte has and is apparently preparing to show up in the very near future. I have respect for your contributions to Open Source, nothing more or less. Stop speculating if I have ever bought a t-shirt, a poster, a CD-set or anything else from Mr. Vandeputte or anybody else. That's none of your business. I don't care what you do for a living. If it's not enough get a job and work like anybody else. Daniel Seuffert
Re: European orders
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 05:00:34PM +0200, Alexander Bochmann wrote: Absolutely. From my point of view, Wim's constant presence and marketing activity was an important factor in the past success of the project, and he is to be commended for that. Correct me if I've misunderstood previous statements to misc@, but I've always thought the developers were the reason for the success of the project -- they do it because they want to do it, whether we as consumers like the end result or not. Tor
Re: European orders
WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE Mr. Grabowski? You can stop speculating who I am btw, I'm Daniel Seuffert. Where do they come from? Suddenly there's this astroturfing campaign about... what? forcing Theo to do business with someone he has no intention of doing business with anymore? If you're really so butthurt, sue for defamation. Those fanboy mails from total nobodies are just retarded. //art Daniel Seuffert i...@praxis123.de writes: Theo de Raadt wrote: Mr. de Raadt, you are the guy that has accused Mr. Vandeputte in public. You are the guy that failed to put any evicence on the public table. Stop whining, show your evidence like Mr. Vandeputte has and is apparently preparing to show up in the very near future. I have respect for your contributions to Open Source, nothing more or less. Stop speculating if I have ever bought a t-shirt, a poster, a CD-set or anything else from Mr. Vandeputte or anybody else. That's none of your business. I don't care what you do for a living. If it's not enough get a job and work like anybody else. Daniel Seuffert
Re: European orders
Hello, On Wed, 01.04.2009 at 08:58:40 +0200, Artur Grabowski a...@blahonga.org wrote: Where do they come from? Suddenly there's this astroturfing campaign about... what? forcing Theo to do business with someone he has no intention of doing business with anymore? this is a bit besides the issue, methinks. There are several issues being discussed, and alluded to, here: 1. Theo not wanting to do business with Wim anymore. 2. The reasons(s) given why Theo does not want to do business with Wim anymore. 3. Theo's handling of the case. 4. Wim's handling of the case. 5. People voicing opinions about the case. 6. Fairness [ Sidebar: ] While not strictly required by law, fairness in business is of utmost importance to me. I'm going to discuss mainly the second issue. If a business relationship breaks up for whatever reason, one mainly has two options: * Declare the relationship terminated, and give no reason. XOR... * declare the relationship terminated, and give a lengthy explanation. It is certainly Theo's prerogative to choose to do business with whomever he wants to (ignoring any potential contract issues for the moment), but if he gives a reason in the first place, the reason has to be sound and verifiable, like with any other statement, too. This is currently not the case. I can only see two statements on the table which (at least) I can't reconcile: Theo's statement that Wim hasn't paid for a very long time, and Wim's statement that he has paid in full, and in a timely manner (sometimes in advance, too). Wim has published his version of this story on his homepage, decorated with numbers, but I haven't seen anything comparable from Theo, except for these messages on this mailing list. Without having audited both side's paperwork, there is no way to say what actually happened, or should have happened, unless one declares one set of arguments void. I have no reason to believe that Theo or Wim have pulled their stories entirely out of thin air, and I also don't believe in both person's attempts to feed me their respective Fox News style opinion and demand exclusive truth for it, too. If I have missed something important, please point it out to me. I'd like to note that I don't want to take sides, but I am very interested in getting some sanity back into this discussion. So, I'd say that everyone interested reads through Wim's statement and then thinks about how much sense this all makes to him, or her. Leaving out most if not all of the moral discussion about how to use, or not use, the disputed money, and instead concentrate on contract and accounting issues would imho help. My current personal assessment is that this story is far from being as black and white as it's being painted by the protagonists, and some of the audience, too. And last but not least, please keep in mind that believing something is the opposite of knowing something. I'd rather know and not believe (because I have no way to know). Kind regards, --Toni++
Re: European orders
that's up to you. And just in case you are not clever enough to realize yourself: I'm not a fanboy of OpenBSD, Mr. de Raadt, Mr. Vandeputte or anybody else. I am Daniel Seuffert asking two questions. Daniel, if I may be off topic for a moment, if you are not a Fan of OpenBSD Why are you on this list? OpenBSD is a Great product, created by Great people, please respect everyone on this mailing list. Sam Fourman Jr.
Re: European orders
Daniel Seuffert d...@praxisvermittlung24.de writes: WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE Mr. Grabowski? Evidence of what? Of you being butthurt by some perceived injustice? It's right there in your mail. You can stop speculating who I am btw, I'm Daniel Seuffert. So, basically you're saying that you're a nobody here. Your point is? //art Where do they come from? Suddenly there's this astroturfing campaign about... what? forcing Theo to do business with someone he has no intention of doing business with anymore? If you're really so butthurt, sue for defamation. Those fanboy mails from total nobodies are just retarded. //art Daniel Seuffert i...@praxis123.de writes: Theo de Raadt wrote: Mr. de Raadt, you are the guy that has accused Mr. Vandeputte in public. You are the guy that failed to put any evicence on the public table. Stop whining, show your evidence like Mr. Vandeputte has and is apparently preparing to show up in the very near future. I have respect for your contributions to Open Source, nothing more or less. Stop speculating if I have ever bought a t-shirt, a poster, a CD-set or anything else from Mr. Vandeputte or anybody else. That's none of your business. I don't care what you do for a living. If it's not enough get a job and work like anybody else. Daniel Seuffert
Re: European orders
ropers wrote: Read up on IBAN/BIC payments and/or on SEPA payments. ... Been there, done that. At the bank(s) I have right now, things go well -- for now. I've seen all kinds of crap in the past so I'm not sure how many more years must pass before I consider such transactions reliable, though I've had no problems for a few years. Other nearby banks have problems, but I don't use them. A lot of service charges turn out to be a mistake and disappear when pointed out, but if you don't point them out, they will go on for years. I can tell you that fairly swift intra-European cross-border transactions with IBAN/BIC definitely do work, and they're as cheap as national transactions ... Yes. *now* they are. However, at the time the Internet and, later, the web and, still later, home computer use in Europe was taking off, it was not. The initial reputation takes a while to wear off. These are great links below, so the main reason for the reply is to get them in the archive again. regards, -Lars Relevancy links: http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/payments/crossborder/index_en.htm from there: Regulation (EC) No 2560/2001 on cross-border payments in euro eliminates the difference of price between cross-border and national payments. (...) The basic principle is that the charges have to be the same whether the payment is national or cross-border. IBAN/BIC, the current intra-European cross-border transaction system: - http://www.ipso.ie/index.php?option=com_contenttask=viewid=102Itemid=250 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBAN - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9362 SEPA, the new and upcoming intra-European transaction system: - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area - http://www.ecb.eu/paym/sepa/html/index.en.html - http://www.sepa.ie/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECB Ok, sorry now for this digression, but I couldn't resist. Thanks and regards, --ropers
Re: European orders
Artur Grabowski wrote: Daniel Seuffert d...@praxisvermittlung24.de writes: WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE Mr. Grabowski? Evidence of what? Of you being butthurt by some perceived injustice? It's right there in your mail. Evidence from Mr. de Raadt for his accusations. You and a lot of people here try hard to be off-topic. You will fail. I asked two questions and I'm still waiting for any decent answer. You can stop speculating who I am btw, I'm Daniel Seuffert. So, basically you're saying that you're a nobody here. Your point is? Stop whining Mr. Grabowski that somebody writes a mail to a public ML and asks two questions. Maybe you think you are something special on this ML, that's up to you. And just in case you are not clever enough to realize yourself: I'm not a fanboy of OpenBSD, Mr. de Raadt, Mr. Vandeputte or anybody else. I am Daniel Seuffert asking two questions. Where do they come from? Suddenly there's this astroturfing campaign about... what? forcing Theo to do business with someone he has no intention of doing business with anymore? If you're really so butthurt, sue for defamation. Those fanboy mails from total nobodies are just retarded. //art Daniel Seuffert i...@praxis123.de writes: Theo de Raadt wrote: Mr. de Raadt, you are the guy that has accused Mr. Vandeputte in public. You are the guy that failed to put any evicence on the public table. Stop whining, show your evidence like Mr. Vandeputte has and is apparently preparing to show up in the very near future. I have respect for your contributions to Open Source, nothing more or less. Stop speculating if I have ever bought a t-shirt, a poster, a CD-set or anything else from Mr. Vandeputte or anybody else. That's none of your business. I don't care what you do for a living. If it's not enough get a job and work like anybody else. Daniel Seuffert
Re: European orders
Daniel Seuffert d...@praxisvermittlung24.de writes: I am Daniel Seuffert asking two questions. And I am Dr. Mbeke Bulabula with a strictly confidential urgent none of your business proposal. //art
Re: European orders
Daniel Seuffert wrote: ... I don't care what you do for a living. If it's not enough get a job and work like anybody else. Rumor is, he'll be in the cube next to yours starting Monday... Nick. (doing his part to drum up donations to keep this from coming true)
Re: European orders
Toni Mueller openbsd-m...@oeko.net writes: 1. Theo not wanting to do business with Wim anymore. It's his choice and none of your business. 2. The reasons(s) given why Theo does not want to do business with Wim anymore. It's his reasons and none of your business. 3. Theo's handling of the case. It's his choice and none of your business. 4. Wim's handling of the case. It's his choice and none of your business. 5. People voicing opinions about the case. Do I need to say it? Their opinions don't matter because it's none of their business. 6. Fairness It, too, is none of your business. You're not a significant stakeholder here. but if he gives a reason in the first place, the reason has to be sound and verifiable, like with any other statement, too. No, it's none of your business. Theo is not accountable to you. The only people he might be remotely accountable to are the developers and the explainations we've been given both by Theo and Wim satisfied me and considering the lack of any outrage from other developers, I conclude that they either are satisfied too, or don't care enough. The intial announcement said as much as it needed to say. Then some people got butthurt and started going emo on the lists. This is currently not the case. None of your business. If I have missed something important, please point it out to me. The part where this is none of your business. I'd like to note that I don't want to take sides, but I am very interested in getting some sanity back into this discussion. I don't take sides either, I just declare that it's none of your business and the same thing applies to all the other people who have been spamming about this issue, it's none of their business. This is not a spectator game and cheerleaders are neither necessary nor desirable. The result of any discussion about this will be the same - Wim will not sell OpenBSD stuff. Regardless of who might be right or wrong here. If you can't accept the fact, there are legal possibilites to settle this, if it's your business, which it isn't. If you want an angle where you might have an interest in this, the question I suggest asking is: I bought X CDs and Y t-shirts for Z EUR. Where did that Z go? and then it will be someones choice to either explain or tell you to go to hell. But that's as far as you might have any legitimate questions here that are more than gathering gossip and inciting spam. //art
Re: European orders
* Artur Grabowski a...@blahonga.org [2009-04-01 12:53]: Daniel Seuffert d...@praxisvermittlung24.de writes: I am Daniel Seuffert asking two questions. And I am Dr. Mbeke Bulabula oh, you're a relative of the King! -- Henning Brauer, h...@bsws.de, henn...@openbsd.org BS Web Services, http://bsws.de Full-Service ISP - Secure Hosting, Mail and DNS Services Dedicated Servers, Rootservers, Application Hosting - Hamburg Amsterdam
Re: European orders
2009/4/1 Toni Mueller openbsd-m...@oeko.net: I'd like to note that I don't want to take sides, but I am very interested in getting some sanity back into this discussion. That's your problem right there. Sane people aren't even interested in having a public discussion about this on misc. You mentioned Fox News. The pundits who are given a platform there are paid for soapboxing on the Fox News Channel. You're not paid to do the same on misc, and please don't do it for free either. Because it's not helping. Because whatever happens, I can guarantee you that none of it is going to get decided in a court of public opinion on misc. There's no point in any one of us pretending to be judge or jury and trying to subpoena for information. And no offence to you or anyone, but why don't we all just STFU unless we happen to be able to announce substantial new information? regards, --ropers
Re: European orders
hmm, on Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 12:37:16PM +0200, Artur Grabowski said that It's his choice and none of your business. It's his reasons and none of your business. It's his choice and none of your business. It's his choice and none of your business. and a thousand more none of your business snipped how is it none of our business if the 2 sides are bickering about money _we_ sent? and it spilled on a public mailing list? did anyone really expect that we will just watch our toes and keep quiet? on m...@? you know better than that art. if wim says, yes, he sent the money i paid for the cd's to theo, and theo says no he didnt get anything, whom should i believe? nobody was accountable to me up to this point, but just like proving lost mail to a big isp with mail queue id's, it should be relatively easy to show paperwork where that money went. you know, i can't go on private chat with theo to confirm stuff, you can. it might seem absurd that people are willing to believe wim's side of the story when theo is the father of all this and has the greatest motivation to run a tight ship. it is so maybe because wim offered to publish all accounting info, while all theo seems to do is cry about how much money could have been made by selling t-shirts... btw. yes, i think that pulling the plug on wim exactly just as pre-orders were sent was the worst time possible. i even remember thinking i am glad i did not pre-ordered, god knows what will happen to those, because the commit did not deign to comment about that... if wim's flaws were kown for years than he should have been locked out of business right after a release, just when the biggest patches go in. i expect we will never know the whole truth, because it is none of our business. gentleman's agreements? it's not worth even a comment. the damage has been done. it sure is true that openbsd code quality is high, i can't imagine people hanging around for any other reason. this was the last place where i expected to find this kind of soap. sigh. as if openbsd's image wasn't tarnished enough. just what we needed to make our advocacy job easier, thanks everyone. and tony's mail was excellent btw. well done. -f -- this tagline is identical to the one you are reading.
Re: European orders
On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 11:50:57AM +0200, Toni Mueller wrote: this is a bit besides the issue, methinks. There are several issues being discussed, and alluded to, here: 1. Theo not wanting to do business with Wim anymore. That's between Theo and Wim. 2. The reasons(s) given why Theo does not want to do business with Wim anymore. That's between Theo and Wim. 3. Theo's handling of the case. 4. Wim's handling of the case. How either chooses to handle their affairs is their business. Both people brought it public but I don't recall either asking for opinions. 5. People voicing opinions about the case. If the developers get tired of whining and quit, am I to run my personal and work OpenBSD boxes and firewalls on opinions? Cool, can't wait for this: $ man pfctl [snip] -LO file Load the opinions contained in file. This option echos the opinions contained in file on the console but does nothing useful. It was the last option added to pfctl before OpenBSD 4.5, the final release of OpenBSD. [/snip] 6. Fairness Fair? The developers/Computer Shop/etc. actually make and sell the fucking stuff! Business relationships are generally win-win. When they become parasitical something has to change or the host suffers. Last opinion from me. Gord
Re: European orders
On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 02:36:55PM +0200, frantisek holop wrote: if wim says, yes, he sent the money i paid for the cd's to theo, and theo says no he didnt get anything, whom should i believe? That's up to you. And there's third option, since you don't necessarily have to believe anything anyone says on the internet. nobody was accountable to me up to this point, but just like proving lost mail to a big isp with mail queue id's, it should be relatively easy to show paperwork where that money went. So, you have given Wim money for a CD set, and you got a CD set. Where the money ends up eventually is not for you to decide, because a track-record of where the money ends up was not part of the deal you made. There is good reason to hope the money you spent will help the project, and if it does not, it means that there is a problem somewhere. But no one is accountable to you, because you got your CD set. Everything beyond the CD set is about personal expectations, trust, and acting in good faith. And money can't buy those. Friendships can. you know, i can't go on private chat with theo to confirm stuff, you can. Well, I guess you could figure out Theo's email address in no time. The question is rather whether it's worth wasting your time writing to him about this. it might seem absurd that people are willing to believe wim's side of the story when theo is the father of all this and has the greatest motivation to run a tight ship. it is so maybe because wim offered to publish all accounting info, while all theo seems to do is cry about how much money could have been made by selling t-shirts... Just because one side of the story has numbers in it does not make it more credible to me than the other. It all seems to boil down to misunderstandings about agreements not manifested in contracts. Kinda like when you break up with your girlfriend. No one expect the people directly involved can settle such issues, if at all. i expect we will never know the whole truth, because it is none of our business. gentleman's agreements? it's not worth even a comment. the damage has been done. Yes, damage is done, but venting here will not help to undo it. Stefan
Re: European orders
Sam Fourman Jr. wrote: that's up to you. And just in case you are not clever enough to realize yourself: I'm not a fanboy of OpenBSD, Mr. de Raadt, Mr. Vandeputte or anybody else. I am Daniel Seuffert asking two questions. Daniel, if I may be off topic for a moment, if you are not a Fan of OpenBSD Why are you on this list? Because Mr. de Raadt accuses Mr. Vandeputte in public for having done some bad things without any evidence yet. In contrast to a lot of people on this list reguarly I don't miss asking Mr. de Raadt where the evidence is, something Mr. Vandeputte's (former) fellows like Mr. Grabowski should have done. Even the guys having received money from Mr. Vandeputte like Mr. Peereboom fail to tell the public when, how much, for what and publish the details. Not wanting to do business with somebody is one thing. Accusing him like that in public is something completely different. That's a fact Mr. Dr. Mbeke Bulabula or whatever he likes to be called cannot handle. I know Mr. Vandeputte for years from dozens of events and he is not guilty until proven to the contrary. I would have stept up for any other guy, being from OpenBSD, another BSD or any other Open Source project. If there is no other guy or girl with enough guts? Ok, be it me. OpenBSD is a Great product, created by Great people, please respect everyone on this mailing list. I'm sorry Mr. Fourman, after reviewing my mails in this thread twice I cannot tell how or when I have not respected OpenBSD or the the great people here. I have asked two questions: 1. Where is the evidence? 2. Why doesn't anybody steps up from his former fellows and defends Mr. Vandeputte after all he has done for them and OpenBSD itself? As far as I can see I was absolutely calm, friendly, even formal. Can you give me a hint here or in private mail what you think was disrespective? Best regards, Daniel Seuffert
Re: European orders
2009/4/1, Stefan Sperling s...@stsp.name: Well, I guess you could figure out Theo's email address in no time. The question is rather whether it's worth wasting your time writing to him about this. No, the question is if its worth wasting Theo's time reading your mail. I trust Theo to be responsible and to know what he's doing. But I still feel sorry for Wim (and moreso for Theo). Now onwards: Who will sell 4.6 to Europe? Best Martin
Re: European orders
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 8:32 AM, Daniel Seuffert d...@praxisvermittlung24.dewrote: Sam Fourman Jr. wrote: that's up to you. And just in case you are not clever enough to realize yourself: I'm not a fanboy of OpenBSD, Mr. de Raadt, Mr. Vandeputte or anybody else. I am Daniel Seuffert asking two questions. Daniel, if I may be off topic for a moment, if you are not a Fan of OpenBSD Why are you on this list? Because Mr. de Raadt accuses Mr. Vandeputte in public for having done some bad things without any evidence yet. In contrast to a lot of people on this list reguarly I don't miss asking Mr. de Raadt where the evidence is, something Mr. Vandeputte's (former) fellows like Mr. Grabowski should have done. Even the guys having received money from Mr. Vandeputte like Mr. Peereboom fail to tell the public when, how much, for what and publish the details. Not wanting to do business with somebody is one thing. Accusing him like that in public is something completely different. That's a fact Mr. Dr. Mbeke Bulabula or whatever he likes to be called cannot handle. I know Mr. Vandeputte for years from dozens of events and he is not guilty until proven to the contrary. I would have stept up for any other guy, being from OpenBSD, another BSD or any other Open Source project. If there is no other guy or girl with enough guts? Ok, be it me. OpenBSD is a Great product, created by Great people, please respect everyone on this mailing list. I'm sorry Mr. Fourman, after reviewing my mails in this thread twice I cannot tell how or when I have not respected OpenBSD or the the great people here. I have asked two questions: 1. Where is the evidence? 2. Why doesn't anybody steps up from his former fellows and defends Mr. Vandeputte after all he has done for them and OpenBSD itself? As far as I can see I was absolutely calm, friendly, even formal. Can you give me a hint here or in private mail what you think was disrespective? Best regards, Daniel Seuffert OK!!! We get your point! Stop saying the same thing! -- www.nealhogan.net www.lambdaserver.com
Re: European orders
Daniel Seuffert d...@praxisvermittlung24.de writes: Because Mr. de Raadt accuses Mr. Vandeputte in public for having done some bad things without any evidence yet. No, he doesn't. Accusing him like that in public is something completely different. Where? I have asked two questions: 1. Where is the evidence? Of what? 2. Why doesn't anybody steps up from his former fellows and defends Mr. Vandeputte after all he has done for them and OpenBSD itself? Yes, ask yourself that question. //art
Re: European orders
On Wed, 1 Apr 2009, Daniel Seuffert wrote: WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE Mr. Grabowski? Evidence is immaterial - this is not any Court; the decision has been made and that's OK with us (if you don't like it, go cry in your beer). Can we ALL just shut and code, or just shut up? My delete key is getting worn off, and it isn't doing anyone any good. Lee
Re: European orders
On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 03:44:16PM +0200, Martin Schrvder wrote: 2009/4/1, Stefan Sperling s...@stsp.name: Well, I guess you could figure out Theo's email address in no time. The question is rather whether it's worth wasting your time writing to him about this. No, the question is if its worth wasting Theo's time reading your mail. Hair split. I was implying Theo wouldn't be wasting time reading it :) Stefan
Re: European orders
On Wed, 1 Apr 2009, frantisek holop wrote: SNIP sigh. as if openbsd's image wasn't tarnished enough. just what we needed to make our advocacy job easier, thanks everyone. Give me a break. Tarnished, yeah sure, that's why it gets used in a lot of commercial establishments. diana
Re: European orders
On Wed, 1 Apr 2009, Artur Grabowski wrote: And I am Dr. Mbeke Bulabula with a strictly confidential urgent none of your business proposal. //art Please, Please, Please contact me at your earliest convenience. I'd like to take part in the none of my business proposal. diana
Re: European orders
On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 03:44:16PM +0200, Martin Schrvder wrote: 2009/4/1, Stefan Sperling s...@stsp.name: Well, I guess you could figure out Theo's email address in no time. The question is rather whether it's worth wasting your time writing to him about this. No, the question is if its worth wasting Theo's time reading your mail. I trust Theo to be responsible and to know what he's doing. But I still feel sorry for Wim (and moreso for Theo). Now onwards: Who will sell 4.6 to Europe? Looking at http://www.openbsd.org/orders.html I'm pretty confident that 4.6 will be available in Europe. -- :wq Claudio
Re: European orders
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 5:20 AM, ropers rop...@gmail.com wrote: [SNIP] And no offence to you or anyone, but why don't we all just STFU unless we happen to be able to announce substantial new information? DELURK IJWTS that this is like the 20th variation on 'we should all be quiet now' that I've seen posted here. What it really means is: 'everyone should be quiet EXCEPT FOR ME, WHO HAS VERY IMPORTANT THINGS TO SAY SUCH AS BE QUIET'. I'm not saying, I'm just saying. LURK
Re: European orders
Congrats to those who created this latest public awareness effort. Along with the humor and drama I have again been challenged to find more cd orders. (Maybe I could stand beside the girl guides at the local walmart and hold up cd's). Suggestion for next event: Some kind of survival competition between Theo and those of a contrary nature. We could then vote on our favorites. Something like: 'Remember...to vote for Theo you must go to the OpenBSD web site and purchase a cd. There is no limit to the number of votes you can placeoperators are standing by and every vote counts!' Just thinking out loud here.
Re: European orders
2009/4/2 Daniel Seuffert d...@praxisvermittlung24.de: Why are you on this list? Because Mr. de Raadt accuses Mr. Vandeputte in public for having done some bad things without any evidence yet. Did you not think that this is an event in progress? It appears that neither side has finalized this matter. So involvement from outsiders can only interfere. If Theo felt he needed to stop shipments to Wim, then he had an obvious question to address. Which he has done. They should be allowed to sort this out privately.
Re: European orders
I'm sure everything will work out in the end. I'm in the US and I've bought CDs, t-shirts and made a few donations. I give the t-shirts to friends and family. Not much. I'm just one guy, but I like OpenBSD and I enjoy doing my small part (when I'm able) to keep it going. It is the gateway to my home network and I use it in my day job as an IT security analyst. I recommend it to others. I'll never forget the first time I installed it. It reminded me of the C64 I used when I was a child. It was so simple, so straight-forward. Anyone could use it. I just could not believe that no one had turned me on to OpenBSD sooner. OpenBSD is the *only* project I have ever given my hard-earned money to although I use other operating systems... I enjoy FreeBSD just as much, but I can't say it is as simple and elegant as OpenBSD. I plan to continue buying CDs on occasion. The software we all use, love and rely on just would not be the same were it not for OpenBSD! Keep up the good work guys. And I think it's a good thing that Theo and other OpenBSD devs are straight-forward and open. I know they take a lot of flak for that at times, but to me it's just like the OS they continually improve... what you see is what you get. They don't pull punches, pretend or try to make things into something they are not. They are open and honest and at times that offends folks, but it's the right thing to do. Just a 'user' in the US. -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/European-orders-tp22691694p22837499.html Sent from the openbsd user - misc mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: European orders
On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 03:32:42PM +0200, Daniel Seuffert wrote: Sam Fourman Jr. wrote: that's up to you. And just in case you are not clever enough to realize yourself: I'm not a fanboy of OpenBSD, Mr. de Raadt, Mr. Vandeputte or anybody else. I am Daniel Seuffert asking two questions. Daniel, if I may be off topic for a moment, if you are not a Fan of OpenBSD Why are you on this list? Because Mr. de Raadt accuses Mr. Vandeputte in public for having done some bad things without any evidence yet. In contrast to a lot of people on this list reguarly I don't miss asking Mr. de Raadt where the evidence is, something Mr. Vandeputte's (former) fellows like Mr. Grabowski should have done. Even the guys having received money from Mr. Vandeputte like Mr. Peereboom fail to tell the public when, how much, for what and publish the details. I do not wish to be pulled into this horseshit. I have received exactly 0 $CURRENCY. Every time I have run a donation run every single cent ends up in the appropriate account. There are plenty of sets of eyes on the stuff I have done, contrary to KD85 accounting. I find it more than unfortunate that I am being mentioned by name in Wim's diatribe. Not wanting to do business with somebody is one thing. Accusing him like that in public is something completely different. That's a fact Mr. Dr. Mbeke Bulabula or whatever he likes to be called cannot handle. I know Mr. Vandeputte for years from dozens of events and he is not guilty until proven to the contrary. That is what people say about the nice neighbor that is a serial killer or a child molester. I thought I knew Wim too but apparently I was wrong. I would have stept up for any other guy, being from OpenBSD, another BSD or any other Open Source project. If there is no other guy or girl with enough guts? Ok, be it me. OpenBSD is a Great product, created by Great people, please respect everyone on this mailing list. I'm sorry Mr. Fourman, after reviewing my mails in this thread twice I cannot tell how or when I have not respected OpenBSD or the the great people here. I have asked two questions: 1. Where is the evidence? Theo provided it; you didn't like it and took Wim's side because you have known him for years. Besides a website with some random bank statements isn't what I exactly call evidence. That whole story is contorted and makes no sense. 2. Why doesn't anybody steps up from his former fellows and defends Mr. Vandeputte after all he has done for them and OpenBSD itself? Maybe because people feel that their trust was fucked with. I for one pore hours of my time into OpenBSD for the total amount of $0; -$ with costs I incur for the project that unlike some other people I don't charge back to the project. Maybe as a developer it stings to hear that someone close to the project was less than honest. Maybe that felt like taking candy from a baby or stealing a purse from an elderly lady. For outsiders this is just some drama. For insiders this is a violation of trust and a slap to the face. As far as I can see I was absolutely calm, friendly, even formal. Can you give me a hint here or in private mail what you think was disrespective? Let me show you: 1. Where is the evidence?
Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 7:39 PM, new_guy byte8b...@gmail.com wrote: I'm in the US and I've bought CDs, t-shirts and made a few donations. OpenBSD is the *only* project I have ever given my hard-earned money to although I use other operating systems... I have a similar story. The sheer simplicity and forethought that goes into this beautiful OS is what made me personally purchase shirts, CDs and give cash as well. I have also persuaded businesses to contribute/purchase media where the software has been deployed. So what if it's founder lives a mountain biking/hiking lifestyle? If I can give him that and he can continue to provide this wonderful product for free, I'm happy to help him live his lifestyle (even if he doesn't play well with others at times). It's too bad the project doesn't have greater financial backing to allow more development of the OS goodness we enjoy--and also allow more OpenBSD people to live a Theo-like lifestyle, if they so choose. I do believe one day we will all rank a person's success not by their net worth, but by their impassioned contributions to humanity.
Re: Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
So what if it's founder lives a mountain biking/hiking lifestyle? There are people being misled that I pay for this extravagant lifestyle out of donations. Hah. Shame on those people who spread that rumour, and also shame on those who are so easily deceived. I hike near conferences that I am invited to; flights paid for. I hike near hackathons that I must attend with developers -- hackathons tend to be near hiking areas but I am not alone in preferring this (our hackathon locations are otherwise chosen for cheap accomodation with free internet2... perhaps internet2 usage is correleted to good terrain..). Once a year I pay with my hard earned salary for a trip to hike somewhere. Then one further time a year I use the reward points -- from all my other flights and hackathon hotel bills and developer flights paid with donation money -- to get to another hiking destination. Yes... I have to take time off to do this, but as many of you know when I get back from a trip I go through all the thousands of mails I received and the project moves on. And between hikes in a foreign country I find insecure ways to partially get in touch a bit and some developers really hate that. I work hard. When I don't hike, and especially during pre-release times, I sometimes don't get outside for days at a time except on forced 10km runs. Extravagant? No. Just a life choice. I have had people accuse me privately of this. I hope others are not so easily deceived. Trust me, with the OpenBSD donations are a loss. Just look at this page, and estimate the hotel bills: http://www.openbsd.org/hackathons.html After you estimate those numbers, where would I find money to spend on even a slurpee? Gimme a fucking break... Donations help a lot, but they are not the whole picture. That is why we are so eager -- as a project -- get the money that Wim has taken from us, because it will help OpenBSD run more hackathons. The systems code you are running, almost half of it came from hackathons. If I can give him that and he can continue to provide this wonderful product for free, I'm happy to help him live his lifestyle (even if he doesn't play well with others at times). It's a deal. It's too bad the project doesn't have greater financial backing to allow more development of the OS goodness we enjoy--and also allow more OpenBSD people to live a Theo-like lifestyle, if they so choose. Others are trying to do it too, but they are just more quiet about it. And then there's the other catagory... the breeders...
Re: Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
Work hard, play harder. Oh what, just because you are you, you dont get to have a life? Fuck that. No need to justify anything in that regard. Hopefull even after all this you and other Devs still have all the motivation it takes to keep making the OpenBSD Project better and better; Having some sort of Report once a year about Donation Money or even also the CD and Shirt Sales money and where it goes would help to shut up even the most ignorant. Reports possibly ala' FreeBSD Foundation; but if not, not; i personally have no doubt that you are the last Guy how would enrich himself on Money donated to OpenBSD, screw that. regards, David On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 10:11:07PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: So what if it's founder lives a mountain biking/hiking lifestyle? There are people being misled that I pay for this extravagant lifestyle out of donations. Hah. Shame on those people who spread that rumour, and also shame on those who are so easily deceived. I hike near conferences that I am invited to; flights paid for. I hike near hackathons that I must attend with developers -- hackathons tend to be near hiking areas but I am not alone in preferring this (our hackathon locations are otherwise chosen for cheap accomodation with free internet2... perhaps internet2 usage is correleted to good terrain..). Once a year I pay with my hard earned salary for a trip to hike somewhere. Then one further time a year I use the reward points -- from all my other flights and hackathon hotel bills and developer flights paid with donation money -- to get to another hiking destination. Yes... I have to take time off to do this, but as many of you know when I get back from a trip I go through all the thousands of mails I received and the project moves on. And between hikes in a foreign country I find insecure ways to partially get in touch a bit and some developers really hate that. I work hard. When I don't hike, and especially during pre-release times, I sometimes don't get outside for days at a time except on forced 10km runs. Extravagant? No. Just a life choice. I have had people accuse me privately of this. I hope others are not so easily deceived. Trust me, with the OpenBSD donations are a loss. Just look at this page, and estimate the hotel bills: http://www.openbsd.org/hackathons.html After you estimate those numbers, where would I find money to spend on even a slurpee? Gimme a fucking break... Donations help a lot, but they are not the whole picture. That is why we are so eager -- as a project -- get the money that Wim has taken from us, because it will help OpenBSD run more hackathons. The systems code you are running, almost half of it came from hackathons. If I can give him that and he can continue to provide this wonderful product for free, I'm happy to help him live his lifestyle (even if he doesn't play well with others at times). It's a deal. It's too bad the project doesn't have greater financial backing to allow more development of the OS goodness we enjoy--and also allow more OpenBSD people to live a Theo-like lifestyle, if they so choose. Others are trying to do it too, but they are just more quiet about it.
Re: European orders - Thank you Theo and your team, some of us appreciate you!
For me, i cant even estimate the time and effort that goes into all the related work and issues for OpenBSD, and thus am more than thankful. OpenBSD sits in every important Corner for two Businesses i am involved in, I could not live without it. I purchase each CD that comes out, have all the Posters, Shirts and Stickers there are, and will continue to get all the new Stuff there is. Whatever Problem there is right now, while i think its a bad Idea to just spread all this in public, ill just blindly take Theo's Side without a doubt. Hopefully OpenBSD, the Project, can navigate this stormy Season without harm and continue to be the best OS there is. On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 12:30:06PM +1100, William Chivers wrote: Hello, Thank you Theo and your team of developers for OpenBSD. Some people responding to the European Orders thread seem to have lost sight of what OpenBSD is and who develops it. I am a bit of a newbie here (although I have been using computers in my career since 1972), but it seems to me that OpenBSD is developed by people who donate their own time and expertise to the project. Theo draws an income but few others do. OpenBSD is given away freely because of the good grace of Theo and the team. If you choose to pay for CDs then this is a donation, is it not? If you do not want to donate, Theo allows you to download for free. Who are these people who think that they can question the motivation, honesty and accounting procedures of the OpenBSD team who give people free access to their project? Here we have a team of people donating their own time to make this fantastic OS available for free and people think they have the right to flame them? Because they donated $50? Give us all a break... Have you heard the proverb about not biting the hand that feeds you? Theo and his team give this OS to us because they choose to do so, not because they have to. They do not have to give it away. Do you have any idea of the salary Theo and the other developers could command at Microsoft, Intel, IBM, Sun, HP, ... God forbid. I am an academic who also runs a consultancy. I intend to start making heavy use of OpenBSD in my teaching and consultancy over the next year or two, not sooner because of various unrelated reasons. Theo, when I make my first dollar using OpenBSD your project will get a percentage, and the same for as long as I use it, and what you choose to do with the money is your business. You can use it to buy food, shelter and even mountain bikes if you wish! As I said, I am new to OpenBSD and my first purchase will be the 4.5 CDs. Go to town, Theo, the $50 is all yours. Please keep doing what you are doing! Many of us appreciate you and what your team do for us. Bill Chivers - William J. Chivers Lecturer in Information Technology School of DCIT Faculty of Science and Information Technology University of Newcastle---Ourimbah Campus PO Box 127, Ourimbah, NSW 2259 Australia CRICOS Provider Number: 00109J phone: +61 2 4349 4473 fax: +61 2 4349 4565 email: william.chiv...@newcastle.edu.au
Re: European orders
Jeez i cant believe all this goes on on misc@ , truth be told the best would have been to setup a 2nd trustworthy distributor in Europe, and silently move over the European Order Sites control to the new Guy. Then, or at the same time, convince Wim in private to make a small announcement that he wont be continuing doing the Orders for some reason or another; while in the back you Guys could have worked out the proceedings regarding the outstanding cash. Instead, every bystander gets to throw in his own Oppinion; the Result clearly visible in that ass long E-Mail thread. On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 11:23:34PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: Enough CDs will be provided to kd85 to cover orders that were placed through the order site. Only that amount of CDs will be provided to kd85. No more. In providing kd85 with enough for the direct orders, we are simply trying to provide enough for the order requests which we feel we handed over. We will not supply CDs for the bulk orders that kd85 normally supplies to various resellers in Europe, ie. book stores and computer shops. Doing so would further enrich kd85 and further increase Wim's debt to the Computer Shop and in turn the project. Those European resellers who need bulk orders are requested to come talk to aus...@openbsd.org as soon as possible; and we are trying to find a bulk reseller in Europe to make the transition quick and easy. I am certain that the resellers will understand the reason why we are here; the middle man has fallen ridiculously far behind in A/R. And no, not because of the economy. It's taken years to get this far behind. Poster and tshirt art will not be supplied to kd85, so thus there will be no sales of tshirts from there, either. Sorry. As I previously very carefully said in the commit message: Disable future European orders since the distributor is way too far behind in reconciling payments to the project for past sales, and years of trying to resolve it have made very little progress. I refuse to further enrich a person who is that far behind in accounts receivables to the Computer Shop (and in turn, thus, the OpenBSD project). People were led to believe the CD sales money funded the project. From Europe in recent years, it has not worked out as we hoped; I share in the blame for having let it go this far wrong. We've had to ask for donations to buy hardware, when the CD sales money should have been enough. --
Re: European orders - Thank you Theo and your team, some of us appreciate you!
David Schulz escribis: For me, i cant even estimate the time and effort that goes into all the related work and issues for OpenBSD, and thus am more than thankful. OpenBSD sits in every important Corner for two Businesses i am involved in, I could not live without it. I purchase each CD that comes out, have all the Posters, Shirts and Stickers there are, and will continue to get all the new Stuff there is. Whatever Problem there is right now, while i think its a bad Idea to just spread all this in public, ill just blindly take Theo's Side without a doubt. Hopefully OpenBSD, the Project, can navigate this stormy Season without harm and continue to be the best OS there is. On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 12:30:06PM +1100, William Chivers wrote: Hello, Thank you Theo and your team of developers for OpenBSD. Some people responding to the European Orders thread seem to have lost sight of what OpenBSD is and who develops it. I am a bit of a newbie here (although I have been using computers in my career since 1972), but it seems to me that OpenBSD is developed by people who donate their own time and expertise to the project. Theo draws an income but few others do. OpenBSD is given away freely because of the good grace of Theo and the team. If you choose to pay for CDs then this is a donation, is it not? If you do not want to donate, Theo allows you to download for free. Who are these people who think that they can question the motivation, honesty and accounting procedures of the OpenBSD team who give people free access to their project? Here we have a team of people donating their own time to make this fantastic OS available for free and people think they have the right to flame them? Because they donated $50? Give us all a break... Have you heard the proverb about not biting the hand that feeds you? Theo and his team give this OS to us because they choose to do so, not because they have to. They do not have to give it away. Do you have any idea of the salary Theo and the other developers could command at Microsoft, Intel, IBM, Sun, HP, ... God forbid. I am an academic who also runs a consultancy. I intend to start making heavy use of OpenBSD in my teaching and consultancy over the next year or two, not sooner because of various unrelated reasons. Theo, when I make my first dollar using OpenBSD your project will get a percentage, and the same for as long as I use it, and what you choose to do with the money is your business. You can use it to buy food, shelter and even mountain bikes if you wish! As I said, I am new to OpenBSD and my first purchase will be the 4.5 CDs. Go to town, Theo, the $50 is all yours. Please keep doing what you are doing! Many of us appreciate you and what your team do for us. Bill Chivers - William J. Chivers Lecturer in Information Technology School of DCIT Faculty of Science and Information Technology University of Newcastle---Ourimbah Campus PO Box 127, Ourimbah, NSW 2259 Australia CRICOS Provider Number: 00109J phone: +61 2 4349 4473 fax: +61 2 4349 4565 email: william.chiv...@newcastle.edu.au +1 here
Re: European orders
On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 01:37:29AM +0200, Richard Ben Aleya wrote: We cannot accept a such behaviour. Who is we? European people is offended when they read such things. I'm from Europe, and i don't feel offended. Please don't speak up in my name. Ciao, Kili
Re: European orders
I agree. Should one take care about this at the moment I guess I have no time at all to start this activity. Le mardi 31 mars 2009 C 13:33 +0800, David Schulz a C)crit : Jeez i cant believe all this goes on on misc@ , truth be told the best would have been to setup a 2nd trustworthy distributor in Europe, and silently move over the European Order Sites control to the new Guy. Then, or at the same time, convince Wim in private to make a small announcement that he wont be continuing doing the Orders for some reason or another; while in the back you Guys could have worked out the proceedings regarding the outstanding cash. Instead, every bystander gets to throw in his own Oppinion; the Result clearly visible in that ass long E-Mail thread. On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 11:23:34PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: Enough CDs will be provided to kd85 to cover orders that were placed through the order site. Only that amount of CDs will be provided to kd85. No more. In providing kd85 with enough for the direct orders, we are simply trying to provide enough for the order requests which we feel we handed over. We will not supply CDs for the bulk orders that kd85 normally supplies to various resellers in Europe, ie. book stores and computer shops. Doing so would further enrich kd85 and further increase Wim's debt to the Computer Shop and in turn the project. Those European resellers who need bulk orders are requested to come talk to aus...@openbsd.org as soon as possible; and we are trying to find a bulk reseller in Europe to make the transition quick and easy. I am certain that the resellers will understand the reason why we are here; the middle man has fallen ridiculously far behind in A/R. And no, not because of the economy. It's taken years to get this far behind. Poster and tshirt art will not be supplied to kd85, so thus there will be no sales of tshirts from there, either. Sorry. As I previously very carefully said in the commit message: Disable future European orders since the distributor is way too far behind in reconciling payments to the project for past sales, and years of trying to resolve it have made very little progress. I refuse to further enrich a person who is that far behind in accounts receivables to the Computer Shop (and in turn, thus, the OpenBSD project). People were led to believe the CD sales money funded the project. From Europe in recent years, it has not worked out as we hoped; I share in the blame for having let it go this far wrong. We've had to ask for donations to buy hardware, when the CD sales money should have been enough.
Re: European orders
Richard Ben Aleya richard.benal...@gmail.com writes: But this conflict does not give you the rights in any manner to insult the Europeans and their culture (you reference to the beer). We cannot accept a such behaviour. European people is offended when they read such things. Obvious troll. Trolls should be more subtle, please practice and come back. We do not want to purchase CDs to pay the salary of an American guy who does not respect European citizens. Now we know the man you are. Then don't. We do not need an OpenBSD project leader, working with all the developers day after day to get changes into the source tree, and making releases every 6 months at the price of being offended. Then don't. //art
Re: European orders - Thank you Theo and your team, some of us appreciate you!
Michael Grigoni michael.grig...@cybertheque.org writes: I also add my thanks to the discussion. I do have a fundamental question to pose however. It seems that opensource culture for large projects is driven by featurism and the need to make massive changes incorporated into frequent releases. I come from a background of very long-term stability requirements for APIs and ABIs, performance figures on hardware over long life-cycles and stringent documentation. [... wall of text continues ...] Is it troll-week on m...@? //art
