Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Jul 05 03:36:30, Peter Laufenberg wrote: On 2012-06-27 19:25, Peter Laufenberg wrote: On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Peter Laufenberg open...@laufenberg.ch wrote: I'm willing to indirectly donate to OpenBSD by paying a professional graphic designer to redo parts of OpenBSD's visual design. His portfolio: that would be cool to presence as a bystander No te entiendo tío! pay the dude regardless of what anybody says, and have him send the patches to a public mailing list Maybe if this community wasn't so resistant to change (justified or not). I can't even see half of his website since it prompts me to download additional software (plugins). It's a /portfolio/ that includes video production. If you don't understand the concept of a portfolio, look it up. It might be nice to have a prettier website, with nicer colors, etc. But most of the people who'd manage to do that, would also want to add JS/CSS/flash, and other thing that would break current features (the ability to see the website in lynx, for example). Most being a number out of your statistically-relevant experience? A designer doesn't decide what technologies can be used -- whoever mandates him does. Web design is a piece of cake compared to tv broadcasting requirements. Now that's an idea: an OpenBSD FAQ TV Broadcast! Please mandate your multimedia friends to make that happen.
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On 2012-06-27 19:25, Peter Laufenberg wrote: On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Peter Laufenberg open...@laufenberg.ch wrote: I'm willing to indirectly donate to OpenBSD by paying a professional graphic designer to redo parts of OpenBSD's visual design. His portfolio: that would be cool to presence as a bystander No te entiendo tío! pay the dude regardless of what anybody says, and have him send the patches to a public mailing list Maybe if this community wasn't so resistant to change (justified or not). I can't even see half of his website since it prompts me to download additional software (plugins). It might be nice to have a prettier website, with nicer colors, etc. But most of the people who'd manage to do that, would also want to add JS/CSS/flash, and other thing that would break current features (the ability to see the website in lynx, for example). Other thing interfiere with the devs' abilities to keep everything up-to-date. Change should not include breaking things, and that's what usually happens when you accept changes right away without considering it twice. would've been even more interesting if you told nobody that he was getting payed for the patches Truth is simpler. -- p -- Hugo Osvaldo Barrera
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On 2012-06-27 19:25, Peter Laufenberg wrote: On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Peter Laufenberg open...@laufenberg.ch wrote: I'm willing to indirectly donate to OpenBSD by paying a professional graphic designer to redo parts of OpenBSD's visual design. His portfolio: that would be cool to presence as a bystander No te entiendo tío! pay the dude regardless of what anybody says, and have him send the patches to a public mailing list Maybe if this community wasn't so resistant to change (justified or not). I can't even see half of his website since it prompts me to download additional software (plugins). It's a /portfolio/ that includes video production. If you don't understand the concept of a portfolio, look it up. It might be nice to have a prettier website, with nicer colors, etc. But most of the people who'd manage to do that, would also want to add JS/CSS/flash, and other thing that would break current features (the ability to see the website in lynx, for example). Most being a number out of your statistically-relevant experience? A designer doesn't decide what technologies can be used -- whoever mandates him does. Web design is a piece of cake compared to tv broadcasting requirements. -- p
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 7:20 PM, Eric Furman ericfur...@fastmail.net wrote: I beg all true @misc followers Search the archives for this shit eating moron's posts. Funny, the only ones showing up when I search for useless posts are yours. Cheers, Lars
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 6:40 AM, Nick Holland n...@holland-consulting.net wrote: Other than boring, no one has actually STATED a problem of the OpenBSD website. That's because there is no problem with it. Sure, it doesn't look like the latest whizz-bang sites (I have nothing against such sites, btw) but neither does it look like an amateur hackjob. In other words, it looks pleasant enough and it is functional. Folks, as Ted has stated repeatedly, if you want to help with site there's plenty of actual content to improve. Cheers, Lars
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On 2012-06-28, Tim Howe th...@bendtel.net wrote: On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 11:09:37 -0700 patrick keshishian pkesh...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Tim Howe th...@bendtel.net wrote: On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 10:26:52 +0200 Marc Espie es...@nerim.net wrote: If you guys are serious about anything, go look at ports-readmes. It does extract information from the ports tree, and creates readmes for all ports. Currently, it's a static port. It could very well be a dynamic application. You can experiment with css, you can experiment with nginx. Preferably, don't add large dependencies (python or ruby out of the question), write it as a perl fcgi or something, you can use Plack or Catalyst or whatever. Or hey, at least tweak the templates to be nicer. Perl FTW. I think the site could easily be built with ttree. You will have easy to manage templates and content that anyone with some html knowledge can edit as easily as before; plus you will have static html output. Parts that should be templated can be in a flexible and easy to decipher/learn way. Little or no knowledge of Template::Toolkit would be required for most changes to be made. It's pretty easy to bootstrap with your existing layout and content. The build process could be managed with an easy make script. Template Toolkit is in the ports tree. http://www.devshed.com/c/a/Perl/Building-a-Complete-Website-using-the-Templa te-Toolkit/ from the page you referenced: | Although HTML is simple, it does tend to be rather | verbose. It's all too easy for the core content of | the page to be obscured by the extra markup | required around it Then, the next link on that page takes you to: http://www.devshed.com/c/a/Perl/Building-a-Complete-Website-using-the-Templat e-Toolkit/1/ Yes, that *IS* much, /much/ better than the initial HTML. --patrick It is, but their spelling of names of fictional planets is atrocious ;) 90-something percent of the files would only contain the html content and a tag that references what wrapper is used for it. Editing content would not require knowing or working around any TT markup, which was the main point I was trying to make. --TimH The only way I can see this really working whilst keeping things in CVS is if the generated HTML is removed from the CVS web tree, otherwise it's likely to get edited directly and we have a mess where changes have to be merged back to the source files as already happens with the existing templated pages on occasion. So IMO the whole site would need to be generated automatically from templates either on the web server and mirrors, or on some other trusted machine generating pages to feed out to these. As such, whatever templating system is used is going to have to be acceptable to people running the website and mirrors (or at least a trusted central machine) to run *automatically*. The existing mirrors will need to change how they sync, and the people working on website (including translation) would need to adapt tools and working methods. I do see advantages from switching to something like this, e.g.: easier way to do manpage references, automatically generating tables of contents, single system for building everything, having an easier way to template translations of the common generated parts (ftp.html, groups.html etc). But OTOH these aren't *all* that fiddly/annoying to do anyway and the areas that really benefit from templating already have it (albeit hand-rolled and maybe not quite as nice as TT). So even before considering what's involved in moving the site content across, there'd need to be a decent improvement and saving of ongoing work to be worth the effort to change existing infrastructure ... worth it? maybe, but if it's at the expense of time spent on improving the content (and there are areas which could _really_ use work to catch up with changes in the last 5+ years *cough*networking*cough*), then I'm not so sure...
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
hmm, on Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 01:19:47PM +1000, Sunnz Yiu said that On Jun 29, 2012 6:56 AM, frantisek holop min...@obiit.org wrote: hmm, on Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 04:15:56PM -0400, Dave Anderson said that For dynamic content it's even simpler -- the program producing the content should also provide the corresponding header information. and it does so inside the head of the page. a perfectly normal and accepted practice. it'll do it in the http header if the developer for the dynamic page knows what they are doing. still, it is not the webserver doing it. -f -- even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat.
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
frantisek holop is a shit eating moron who should be ignored by anyone who is not a shit eating moron... FUCK YOU holop. FUCK YOU holop. Please SHUT THE FUCK UP you stupid moron, frantisek holop. I beg all true @misc followers Search the archives for this shit eating moron's posts. He is nothing but a shit eating moron troll. On Fri, Jun 29, 2012, at 01:19 PM, Sunnz Yiu wrote: On Jun 29, 2012 6:56 AM, frantisek holop min...@obiit.org wrote: hmm, on Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 04:15:56PM -0400, Dave Anderson said that For dynamic content it's even simpler -- the program producing the content should also provide the corresponding header information. and it does so inside the head of the page. a perfectly normal and accepted practice. it'll do it in the http header if the developer for the dynamic page knows what they are doing.
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
what kind of shit are we talking about here? Scheisster baby eat my caviar turds or sinewy shrimp intestines you have to swallow wholesale lest being called a fag? Don't leave this up for interpretation or commentators unaware of Tourette syndrome tax deductions will /again/ quote out of context and label OpenBSD a psychopath hangout. Btw I read Theo was probably going Reiser-loco, that's fucking hilarious. I left OpenBSD to become a murder profiler. -- p frantisek holop is a shit eating moron who should be ignored by anyone who is not a shit eating moron... FUCK YOU holop. FUCK YOU holop. Please SHUT THE FUCK UP you stupid moron, frantisek holop. I beg all true @misc followers Search the archives for this shit eating moron's posts. He is nothing but a shit eating moron troll. On Fri, Jun 29, 2012, at 01:19 PM, Sunnz Yiu wrote: On Jun 29, 2012 6:56 AM, frantisek holop min...@obiit.org wrote: hmm, on Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 04:15:56PM -0400, Dave Anderson said that For dynamic content it's even simpler -- the program producing the content should also provide the corresponding header information. and it does so inside the head of the page. a perfectly normal and accepted practice. it'll do it in the http header if the developer for the dynamic page knows what they are doing.
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Wed 27/06/12 08:32, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 3:24 PM, richardtoo...@paradise.net.nz wrote: I'd prefer the (small) team of developers to work on the code. Well, that's a false dichotomy: not all OpenBSD committers work on the code. A handful work primarily on maintaining the website and/or documentation, because that's an important job too. Fair enough, I am not a developer, so it was entirely my 2c. I'm sure there are a lot of people who pop up and offer to do stuff but when the going gets tough and not much fun, they melt away like snowflakes. I've seen it in a number of organisations - lots of ideas, not enough implementers (if there's such a word.) Yeah. I get mails like that. We can make this much prettier using php. bullshit, we can make it prettier using javascript/node ;^)
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
oi, fur-for-brains-man you said you will never see an email from me ever because i go directly to /dev/null. your mama's so fat you cannot even set up procmail. hmm, on Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 07:20:29AM -0400, Eric Furman said that frantisek holop is a shit eating moron who should be ignored by anyone who is not a shit eating moron... FUCK YOU holop. FUCK YOU holop. Please SHUT THE FUCK UP you stupid moron, frantisek holop. I beg all true @misc followers Search the archives for this shit eating moron's posts. He is nothing but a shit eating moron troll. On Fri, Jun 29, 2012, at 01:19 PM, Sunnz Yiu wrote: On Jun 29, 2012 6:56 AM, frantisek holop min...@obiit.org wrote: hmm, on Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 04:15:56PM -0400, Dave Anderson said that For dynamic content it's even simpler -- the program producing the content should also provide the corresponding header information. and it does so inside the head of the page. a perfectly normal and accepted practice. it'll do it in the http header if the developer for the dynamic page knows what they are doing. -- don't /usr/bin/talk to strangers
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
If you guys are serious about anything, go look at ports-readmes. It does extract information from the ports tree, and creates readmes for all ports. Currently, it's a static port. It could very well be a dynamic application. You can experiment with css, you can experiment with nginx. Preferably, don't add large dependencies (python or ruby out of the question), write it as a perl fcgi or something, you can use Plack or Catalyst or whatever. Or hey, at least tweak the templates to be nicer.
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 03:46:12PM -0700, Chris Cappuccio wrote: IIRC, Theo did the current design himself after everyone else failed to come up with something good. Well, Theo had some rather fun constraints, like making a web site that works with antiquated browsers, like no css. If that constraint gets lifted (Theo ? is your browser still stuck in 1990 ?), then it would probably be possible to have something that looks the same / looks better and less painful to change...
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
Talk ajax to me, baby. On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Marc Espie es...@nerim.net wrote: On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 03:46:12PM -0700, Chris Cappuccio wrote: IIRC, Theo did the current design himself after everyone else failed to come up with something good. Well, Theo had some rather fun constraints, like making a web site that works with antiquated browsers, like no css. If that constraint gets lifted (Theo ? is your browser still stuck in 1990 ?), then it would probably be possible to have something that looks the same / looks better and less painful to change...
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On 06/28/2012 01:26 AM, Marc Espie wrote: If you guys are serious about anything, go look at ports-readmes. It does extract information from the ports tree, and creates readmes for all ports. Currently, it's a static port. It could very well be a dynamic application. You can experiment with css, you can experiment with nginx. Preferably, don't add large dependencies (python or ruby out of the question), write it as a perl fcgi or something, you can use Plack or Catalyst or whatever. Or hey, at least tweak the templates to be nicer. . no no no, keep it static - afaik all *nix systems and grep just fine w/o dynamic - just shoot changes the changes in static form - and grep it out
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 02:55:53AM -0700, Timmy L Steve wrote: On 06/28/2012 01:26 AM, Marc Espie wrote: If you guys are serious about anything, go look at ports-readmes. It does extract information from the ports tree, and creates readmes for all ports. Currently, it's a static port. It could very well be a dynamic application. You can experiment with css, you can experiment with nginx. Preferably, don't add large dependencies (python or ruby out of the question), write it as a perl fcgi or something, you can use Plack or Catalyst or whatever. Or hey, at least tweak the templates to be nicer. Seriously, a dynamic app would mean you could get a few more indices and search. The information is already in db form anyways.
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On 2012-06-28, ropers rop...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 June 2012 01:17, Andres Perera andre...@zoho.com wrote: http://www.openbsd.org/papers/bsdcan11-mandoc-openbsd.html that page is encoded iso 8859-1, doesn't state so anywhere, breaks with browsers configured to default to utf8 in the absence of encoding qualifiers $ telnet www.openbsd.org 80 Trying 142.244.12.42... Connected to www.openbsd.org. Escape character is '^]'. GET /papers/bsdcan11-mandoc-openbsd.html HTTP/1.1 Host: www.openbsd.org HTTP/1.1 200 OK Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 23:59:19 GMT Server: Apache Last-Modified: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:11:28 GMT ETag: 65f60c9352dee7ec594696cdfb681e86316269ef Accept-Ranges: bytes Content-Length: 32754 Content-Type: text/html HTML BODY ... Okay, this could transmit Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 but doesn't, but that's ok, we can do this on a page-by-page basis with a META tag, which ought to be ignored by browsers that don't understand it: IMO if it's worth doing this at all, it needs doing to *all* pages that need it, in one go, consistently. Anything else is likely to be way too much pain for the translators.
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 10:31, Marc Espie wrote: On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 03:46:12PM -0700, Chris Cappuccio wrote: IIRC, Theo did the current design himself after everyone else failed to come up with something good. Well, Theo had some rather fun constraints, like making a web site that works with antiquated browsers, like no css. If that constraint gets lifted (Theo ? is your browser still stuck in 1990 ?), then it would probably be possible to have something that looks the same / looks better and less painful to change... CSS should fall back gracefully. It works well enough with lynx anyway, where graphical positioning is useless. Is netscape 4 still something we need to support?
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Thu, 28 Jun 2012, Stuart Henderson wrote: On 2012-06-28, ropers rop...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 June 2012 01:17, Andres Perera andre...@zoho.com wrote: A http://www.openbsd.org/papers/bsdcan11-mandoc-openbsd.html that page is encoded iso 8859-1, doesn't state so anywhere, breaks with browsers configured to default to utf8 in the absence of encoding qualifiers $ telnet www.openbsd.org 80 Trying 142.244.12.42... Connected to www.openbsd.org. Escape character is '^]'. GET /papers/bsdcan11-mandoc-openbsd.html HTTP/1.1 Host: www.openbsd.org HTTP/1.1 200 OK Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 23:59:19 GMT Server: Apache Last-Modified: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:11:28 GMT ETag: 65f60c9352dee7ec594696cdfb681e86316269ef Accept-Ranges: bytes Content-Length: 32754 Content-Type: text/html HTML BODY ... Okay, this could transmit Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 but doesn't, but that's ok, we can do this on a page-by-page basis with a META tag, which ought to be ignored by browsers that don't understand it: IMO if it's worth doing this at all, it needs doing to *all* pages that need it, in one go, consistently. Anything else is likely to be way too much pain for the translators. Using META is _ugly_, especially for specifying a charset (since the page will be read up through the META element using the charset specified in the real header or assumed by the browser -- and that charset could be incompatible with the actual encoding.) Why not just use the AddDefaultCharset directive to ensure that a charset is specified in the real header for all pages? Or is this known to break some browsers that are still in use? Dave -- Dave Anderson d...@daveanderson.com
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
imo the issue has more to do with one page using a completely different scheme than all the others. that happens when you copy-paste massive tags at the beginning of every doc instead of using your preferred flavor of #include. you could of course go another route and try to justify it by saying it's html1 unlike the rest, but that's just as useless as fixating on the charset On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Dave Anderson d...@daveanderson.com wrote: On Thu, 28 Jun 2012, Stuart Henderson wrote: On 2012-06-28, ropers rop...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 June 2012 01:17, Andres Perera andre...@zoho.com wrote: A http://www.openbsd.org/papers/bsdcan11-mandoc-openbsd.html that page is encoded iso 8859-1, doesn't state so anywhere, breaks with browsers configured to default to utf8 in the absence of encoding qualifiers $ telnet www.openbsd.org 80 Trying 142.244.12.42... Connected to www.openbsd.org. Escape character is '^]'. GET /papers/bsdcan11-mandoc-openbsd.html HTTP/1.1 Host: www.openbsd.org HTTP/1.1 200 OK Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 23:59:19 GMT Server: Apache Last-Modified: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:11:28 GMT ETag: 65f60c9352dee7ec594696cdfb681e86316269ef Accept-Ranges: bytes Content-Length: 32754 Content-Type: text/html HTML BODY ... Okay, this could transmit Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 but doesn't, but that's ok, we can do this on a page-by-page basis with a META tag, which ought to be ignored by browsers that don't understand it: IMO if it's worth doing this at all, it needs doing to *all* pages that need it, in one go, consistently. Anything else is likely to be way too much pain for the translators. Using META is _ugly_, especially for specifying a charset (since the page will be read up through the META element using the charset specified in the real header or assumed by the browser -- and that charset could be incompatible with the actual encoding.) Why not just use the AddDefaultCharset directive to ensure that a charset is specified in the real header for all pages? Or is this known to break some browsers that are still in use? Dave -- Dave Anderson d...@daveanderson.com
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
All the stuff under papers comes from wherever. It's not really part of the website proper. Consolidating all that content into a consistent style, any style, would be great. On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 12:00, Andres Perera wrote: imo the issue has more to do with one page using a completely different scheme than all the others. that happens when you copy-paste massive tags at the beginning of every doc instead of using your preferred flavor of #include. you could of course go another route and try to justify it by saying it's html1 unlike the rest, but that's just as useless as fixating on the charset On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Dave Anderson d...@daveanderson.com wrote: On Thu, 28 Jun 2012, Stuart Henderson wrote: On 2012-06-28, ropers rop...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 June 2012 01:17, Andres Perera andre...@zoho.com wrote: A http://www.openbsd.org/papers/bsdcan11-mandoc-openbsd.html that page is encoded iso 8859-1, doesn't state so anywhere, breaks with browsers configured to default to utf8 in the absence of encoding qualifiers $ telnet www.openbsd.org 80 Trying 142.244.12.42... Connected to www.openbsd.org. Escape character is '^]'. GET /papers/bsdcan11-mandoc-openbsd.html HTTP/1.1 Host: www.openbsd.org HTTP/1.1 200 OK Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 23:59:19 GMT Server: Apache Last-Modified: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:11:28 GMT ETag: 65f60c9352dee7ec594696cdfb681e86316269ef Accept-Ranges: bytes Content-Length: 32754 Content-Type: text/html HTML BODY ... Okay, this could transmit Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 but doesn't, but that's ok, we can do this on a page-by-page basis with a META tag, which ought to be ignored by browsers that don't understand it: IMO if it's worth doing this at all, it needs doing to *all* pages that need it, in one go, consistently. Anything else is likely to be way too much pain for the translators. Using META is _ugly_, especially for specifying a charset (since the page will be read up through the META element using the charset specified in the real header or assumed by the browser -- and that charset could be incompatible with the actual encoding.) Why not just use the AddDefaultCharset directive to ensure that a charset is specified in the real header for all pages? Or is this known to break some browsers that are still in use? Dave -- Dave Anderson d...@daveanderson.com
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
hmm, on Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 09:47:00AM -0400, Dave Anderson said that Using META is _ugly_, especially for specifying a charset (since the page will be read up through the META element using the charset specified in the real header or assumed by the browser -- and that charset could be incompatible with the actual encoding.) Why not just use the AddDefaultCharset directive to ensure that a charset is specified in the real header for all pages? Or is this known to break some browsers that are still in use? because AddDefaultCharset is a braindead concept. as the apache config file comment says (on debian): # In general, it is only a good idea if you know that all your files # have this encoding. It will override any encoding given in the files # in meta http-equiv or xml encoding tags. setting AddDefaultCharset is a sure way to break any content on your site that happens to be written in the non-default-charset, as the server setting overrides the explicit meta-tag. the webserver has no business telling the client what charset the content will be in. it cannot know. especially for dynamic content. the webserver simply shuffles bytes. sometimes it can give a hint with mime-types, sometimes not. -f -- good words cost no more than bad.
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
If you guys are serious about anything, go look at ports-readmes. It does extract information from the ports tree, and creates readmes for all ports. Currently, it's a static port. It could very well be a dynamic application. You can experiment with css, you can experiment with nginx. Preferably, don't add large dependencies (python or ruby out of the question), write it as a perl fcgi or something, you can use Plack or Catalyst or whatever. If you're considering dynamic pages (which I'm not advocating) you may want to consider Lua. It's tiny, fast, easy to sandbox security memory-wise, had stable syntax over-time and its manual is a KR-thin 100 pages. Unlike most languages it's meant to be embedded into existing code rather than run stand-alone; its 3rd party library is minuscule and optional. Wikipedia's switching to Lua for their templates, other famous users are nmap, wireshark, snort, openwrt, world of warcraft crysis. Obviously if maintainers' know-how is overwhelmingly perl then it's not worth it. /my 2 cents of a Peseta - no language flame war pls. -- p
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 10:26:52 +0200 Marc Espie es...@nerim.net wrote: If you guys are serious about anything, go look at ports-readmes. It does extract information from the ports tree, and creates readmes for all ports. Currently, it's a static port. It could very well be a dynamic application. You can experiment with css, you can experiment with nginx. Preferably, don't add large dependencies (python or ruby out of the question), write it as a perl fcgi or something, you can use Plack or Catalyst or whatever. Or hey, at least tweak the templates to be nicer. Perl FTW. I think the site could easily be built with ttree. You will have easy to manage templates and content that anyone with some html knowledge can edit as easily as before; plus you will have static html output. Parts that should be templated can be in a flexible and easy to decipher/learn way. Little or no knowledge of Template::Toolkit would be required for most changes to be made. It's pretty easy to bootstrap with your existing layout and content. The build process could be managed with an easy make script. Template Toolkit is in the ports tree. http://www.devshed.com/c/a/Perl/Building-a-Complete-Website-using-the-Template-Toolkit/ --TimH
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Tim Howe th...@bendtel.net wrote: On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 10:26:52 +0200 Marc Espie es...@nerim.net wrote: If you guys are serious about anything, go look at ports-readmes. It does extract information from the ports tree, and creates readmes for all ports. Currently, it's a static port. It could very well be a dynamic application. You can experiment with css, you can experiment with nginx. Preferably, don't add large dependencies (python or ruby out of the question), write it as a perl fcgi or something, you can use Plack or Catalyst or whatever. Or hey, at least tweak the templates to be nicer. Perl FTW. I think the site could easily be built with ttree. You will have easy to manage templates and content that anyone with some html knowledge can edit as easily as before; plus you will have static html output. Parts that should be templated can be in a flexible and easy to decipher/learn way. Little or no knowledge of Template::Toolkit would be required for most changes to be made. It's pretty easy to bootstrap with your existing layout and content. The build process could be managed with an easy make script. Template Toolkit is in the ports tree. http://www.devshed.com/c/a/Perl/Building-a-Complete-Website-using-the-Templa te-Toolkit/ from the page you referenced: | Although HTML is simple, it does tend to be rather | verbose. It's all too easy for the core content of | the page to be obscured by the extra markup | required around it Then, the next link on that page takes you to: http://www.devshed.com/c/a/Perl/Building-a-Complete-Website-using-the-Templat e-Toolkit/1/ Yes, that *IS* much, /much/ better than the initial HTML. --patrick
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 11:09:37 -0700 patrick keshishian pkesh...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Tim Howe th...@bendtel.net wrote: On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 10:26:52 +0200 Marc Espie es...@nerim.net wrote: If you guys are serious about anything, go look at ports-readmes. It does extract information from the ports tree, and creates readmes for all ports. Currently, it's a static port. It could very well be a dynamic application. You can experiment with css, you can experiment with nginx. Preferably, don't add large dependencies (python or ruby out of the question), write it as a perl fcgi or something, you can use Plack or Catalyst or whatever. Or hey, at least tweak the templates to be nicer. Perl FTW. I think the site could easily be built with ttree. You will have easy to manage templates and content that anyone with some html knowledge can edit as easily as before; plus you will have static html output. Parts that should be templated can be in a flexible and easy to decipher/learn way. Little or no knowledge of Template::Toolkit would be required for most changes to be made. It's pretty easy to bootstrap with your existing layout and content. The build process could be managed with an easy make script. Template Toolkit is in the ports tree. http://www.devshed.com/c/a/Perl/Building-a-Complete-Website-using-the-Templa te-Toolkit/ from the page you referenced: | Although HTML is simple, it does tend to be rather | verbose. It's all too easy for the core content of | the page to be obscured by the extra markup | required around it Then, the next link on that page takes you to: http://www.devshed.com/c/a/Perl/Building-a-Complete-Website-using-the-Templat e-Toolkit/1/ Yes, that *IS* much, /much/ better than the initial HTML. --patrick 90-something percent of the files would only contain the html content and a tag that references what wrapper is used for it. Editing content would not require knowing or working around any TT markup, which was the main point I was trying to make. --TimH
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Thu, 28 Jun 2012, frantisek holop wrote: hmm, on Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 09:47:00AM -0400, Dave Anderson said that Using META is _ugly_, especially for specifying a charset (since the page will be read up through the META element using the charset specified in the real header or assumed by the browser -- and that charset could be incompatible with the actual encoding.) Why not just use the AddDefaultCharset directive to ensure that a charset is specified in the real header for all pages? Or is this known to break some browsers that are still in use? because AddDefaultCharset is a braindead concept. No, just one that needs to be applied only when appropriate. The truly braindead idea is that of partially parsing a file in order to find out what charset you should have been using in doing that parsing. This only mostly works because, for the typical page content from the beginning through any META elements, the encoding specified by most charset values happens to match the encoding specified by 8859-1. as the apache config file comment says (on debian): # In general, it is only a good idea if you know that all your files # have this encoding. It will override any encoding given in the files # in meta http-equiv or xml encoding tags. Precisely. In the case under discussion (where, IIRC, the files in question were all 8859-1 but some of them did not get a charset specified in the real headers) it does exactly what is needed. In more complicated situations more configuration is needed and, if this is done properly, setting a default charset may not be appropriate. setting AddDefaultCharset is a sure way to break any content on your site that happens to be written in the non-default-charset, as the server setting overrides the explicit meta-tag. Not true at all. If you're using different charset values for different files, you need to set up a pattern in your file naming which encodes which charset value is appropriate for each type of file and tell the webserver about it; it then emits the appropriate header for each file. For dynamic content it's even simpler -- the program producing the content should also provide the corresponding header information. the webserver has no business telling the client what charset the content will be in. it cannot know. especially for dynamic content. the webserver simply shuffles bytes. sometimes it can give a hint with mime-types, sometimes not. Nonsense! Dave -- Dave Anderson d...@daveanderson.com
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 10:53:04AM -0700, Tim Howe wrote: On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 10:26:52 +0200 Marc Espie es...@nerim.net wrote: If you guys are serious about anything, go look at ports-readmes. It does extract information from the ports tree, and creates readmes for all ports. Currently, it's a static port. It could very well be a dynamic application. You can experiment with css, you can experiment with nginx. Preferably, don't add large dependencies (python or ruby out of the question), write it as a perl fcgi or something, you can use Plack or Catalyst or whatever. Or hey, at least tweak the templates to be nicer. Perl FTW. I think the site could easily be built with ttree. You will have easy to manage templates and content that anyone with some html knowledge can edit as easily as before; plus you will have static html output. Parts that should be templated can be in a flexible and easy to decipher/learn way. Little or no knowledge of Template::Toolkit would be required for most changes to be made. It's pretty easy to bootstrap with your existing layout and content. The build process could be managed with an easy make script. Template Toolkit is in the ports tree. http://www.devshed.com/c/a/Perl/Building-a-Complete-Website-using-the-Template-Toolkit/ Well, duh, have a look first. Ports-readmes is obviously built with TT... :) I'm more thinking of finishing turning it into a proper dynamic app, or heck, even designing nicer templates. I have enough shit to develop already, so I have spent zero time writing nice tt files or css. Please go ahead, do something nicer.
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Dave Anderson d...@daveanderson.com wrote: On Thu, 28 Jun 2012, frantisek holop wrote: hmm, on Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 09:47:00AM -0400, Dave Anderson said that Using META is _ugly_, especially for specifying a charset (since the page will be read up through the META element using the charset specified in the real header or assumed by the browser -- and that charset could be incompatible with the actual encoding.) Why not just use the AddDefaultCharset directive to ensure that a charset is specified in the real header for all pages? Or is this known to break some browsers that are still in use? because AddDefaultCharset is a braindead concept. No, just one that needs to be applied only when appropriate. The truly braindead idea is that of partially parsing a file in order to find out what charset you should have been using in doing that parsing. This only mostly works because, for the typical page content from the beginning through any META elements, the encoding specified by most charset values happens to match the encoding specified by 8859-1. [...] the cool thing about tags is that you can access; e.g., local man pages through file:// and have a properly decoded page. no need for a server most charsets coincide with the first 127 characters of ascii, so what's the problem anyway. yea some browsers will reread the whole html but it's a minimal cost if you place the meta tag at the beginning
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
hmm, on Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 04:15:56PM -0400, Dave Anderson said that because AddDefaultCharset is a braindead concept. No, just one that needs to be applied only when appropriate. The truly braindead idea is that of partially parsing a file in order to find out what charset you should have been using in doing that parsing. This only mostly works because, for the typical page content from the beginning through any META elements, the encoding specified by most charset values happens to match the encoding specified by 8859-1. the charset applies to the content and not the markup, which is always latin1. not mostly. # In general, it is only a good idea if you know that all your files # have this encoding. It will override any encoding given in the files # in meta http-equiv or xml encoding tags. Precisely. In the case under discussion (where, IIRC, the files in question were all 8859-1 but some of them did not get a charset specified in the real headers) it does exactly what is needed. In more complicated situations more configuration is needed and, if this is done properly, setting a default charset may not be appropriate. last time i looked there were numerous translation projects for the openbsd web site. setting AddDefaultCharset is a sure way to break any content on your site that happens to be written in the non-default-charset, as the server setting overrides the explicit meta-tag. Not true at all. If you're using different charset values for different files, you need to set up a pattern in your file naming which encodes which charset value is appropriate for each type of file and tell the webserver about it; it then emits the appropriate header for each file. more nonsense from the apache configuration crew. putting the charset in the names of files? oh please. pure masochism. and for what gain? none, whatsoever. For dynamic content it's even simpler -- the program producing the content should also provide the corresponding header information. and it does so inside the head of the page. a perfectly normal and accepted practice. btw. a content-type meta tag is _mandatory_ in most doctype's. go on, leave it out, cause it's ugly the webserver has no business telling the client what charset the content will be in. it cannot know. especially for dynamic content. the webserver simply shuffles bytes. sometimes it can give a hint with mime-types, sometimes not. Nonsense! double nonsense! :] i wouldnt let you close to any of my webservers, that's for sure. -f -- how can i miss you if you won't go away.
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
Other than boring, no one has actually STATED a problem of the OpenBSD website. It's not PINK enough. I want PINK everywhere. PINK PINK PINK. PINK text on a PINK background. Oh and BROWN. BROWN BROWN BROWN. Thinking about it, PINK text on a PINK background won't work will it. Grey, grey text on a pink background (may prevent tempest attacks too, so perfectly appropriate). seriously though a html5 transition which shows a prominent developer with red freebsd horns charge through the page and a moo sound when you CSS hover over puffy would be greatly appreciated. p.s. I might send patches one day If I can ever afford the time but importantly won't care if they are dropped on the floor either and I much prefer dynamic width sites with generous limits to prevent the rediculous like an A4s worth of text on one line. -- Sharpe: But all women like getting married PAT. Harper: A kno, bu why can they just do it and tell us about it after.
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 03:46:12PM -0700, Chris Cappuccio wrote: IIRC, Theo did the current design himself after everyone else failed to come up with something good. Well, Theo had some rather fun constraints, like making a web site that works with antiquated browsers, like no css. I suppose you mean worked for all users. Priorities right I would have thought. What works for all I guess is a moving target and is it worth checking what that is when cool factor isn't required. OpenBSD looks good even in IE6, for my sites I prefer looking good in most browsers and don't care about the look on IE6 as long as function isn't lost for IE6 users. If that constraint gets lifted (Theo ? is your browser still stuck in 1990 ?), then it would probably be possible to have something that looks the same / looks better and less painful to change... CSS should fall back gracefully. It works well enough with lynx anyway, where graphical positioning is useless. Is netscape 4 still something we need to support? CSS may not run on old Nokias for example and is only partially implemented by even the newest phones. It can still be used selectively without breaking anything as far as I am aware if desirable though. -- Why not do something good every day and install BOINC.
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
frantisek holop writes: For dynamic content it's even simpler -- the program producing the content should also provide the corresponding header information. and it does so inside the head of the page. a perfectly normal and accepted practice. btw. a content-type meta tag is _mandatory_ in most doctype's. go on, leave it out, cause it's ugly Not a single doctype requires a meta content-type tag. Although it's good practice to include one for servers that don't specify a charset in HTTP, the fact is that if for any reason the server specifies a different charset, it will override the one in the meta tag. This is historical practice (and probably correct according to RFC) and will never change.
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Jun 29, 2012 6:56 AM, frantisek holop min...@obiit.org wrote: hmm, on Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 04:15:56PM -0400, Dave Anderson said that For dynamic content it's even simpler -- the program producing the content should also provide the corresponding header information. and it does so inside the head of the page. a perfectly normal and accepted practice. it'll do it in the http header if the developer for the dynamic page knows what they are doing.
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
We are all anxiously awaiting your diffs... On Tue, Jun 26, 2012, at 07:52 PM, Alvaro Mantilla Gimenez wrote: Why is not possible to apply a new css style to the current site? That has nothing to do with joomla (and similar) and would keep the site fast and compatible with, let's saylynx or whatever browser do you want to try with the site. I mean, for me the site is ok but a new css style could be a great thing too. Same speed, same compatibility, new design. - Alvaro El 26/06/2012, a las 16:25, STeve Andre' escribió: On 06/26/12 17:57, Pablo Velasco Fernández wrote: I mean.. A modern style. El 26/06/2012 23:55, Miod Vallat m...@online.fr escribió: Hi. I was loolong the FreeBSD web page. And its a cool page with a cool desing. Maybe OpenBSD should change their own page to a most visual web page. ( Its only my opinion ) What do you think? Last time I checked, you could use eyes to browse the OpenBSD website. Why do you consider it non-visual? Miod OK, a modern style. But why? Why is it that a web site that does what web sites should do--convey information--have to be redesigned in order to keep up with other sites? I see this all the time, at work where people seem to think that things like Joomlacough are a good thing. I shouldn't say just work, as I see it everywhere. The OpenBSD site is simple and fast. I keep it in /usr/www which consumes 291M as of today. It's a great web site as it is. --STeve Andre' [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
ohh, just had a sleep and missed great propagated, essential improvements. No one cares 'bout design. No one wants to sell something with eyecandy. No one wants to do the work For what? Worldpeace? Annoying, bored L1nux users with limited reading selfreflection capabilities? In fact of telling people what THEY should/could do better: Do it or... There are enough people in the world who have great visions for other people. btw, openbsd.org look much more cooler, straighter than freebsd.org. At least in lynx(1). André
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On 2012-06-26 18:46, Pablo Velasco Fernández wrote: Hi. I was loolong the FreeBSD web page. And its a cool page with a cool desing. Maybe OpenBSD should change their own page to a most visual web page. ( Its only my opinion ) What do you think? The FreeBSD website seems optimized for really low resolution, and I've over 50% of my monitor covered in white margins. The OpenBSD website fills my monitor with lots of information. The idea of a large monitor, is, to be able to see more stuff on screen. Yet, on the other hand, it'll still work fine on lynx. I don't see how FreeBSD's is an improvement. -- Hugo Osvaldo Barrera
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
Op Wed, 27 Jun 2012 10:54:11 +0200 schreef Hugo Osvaldo Barrera h...@osvaldobarrera.com.ar: On 2012-06-26 18:46, Pablo Velasco Fernández wrote: Hi. I was loolong the FreeBSD web page. And its a cool page with a cool desing. Maybe OpenBSD should change their own page to a most visual web page. ( Its only my opinion ) What do you think? The FreeBSD website seems optimized for really low resolution, and I've over 50% of my monitor covered in white margins. The OpenBSD website fills my monitor with lots of information. The idea of a large monitor, is, to be able to see more stuff on screen. Yet, on the other hand, it'll still work fine on lynx. I don't see how FreeBSD's is an improvement. Smaller columns make speed reading easier. My browser windows don't all take up the whole width of my screen, and some of my browser tabs don't take up the whole width of the browser window it is in. -- Gemaakt met Opera's revolutionaire e-mailprogramma: http://www.opera.com/mail/ (Remove the obvious prefix to reply privately.)
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
Chris Cappuccio ch...@nmedia.net writes: Duh, this is OpenBSD. We use banner `ftp -o - http://www.openbsd.org/` You mean: banner `lynx -dump http://www.openbsd.org/` -- Manuel Giraud
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 05:30:18PM -0500, Chris Bennett wrote: banner `wget http://www.openbsd.org/ -O -` That's nice, but it would be nice if someone could take some responsibility and make banner css-aware. Imagine being able to specify a cool font face with anti-aliased edges and true transparency! -- Cheers, Erling
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
Really? Can we do that? Seems, by this thread and previous about this subject, that nobody is waiting for any diffs regarding this - Alvaro El 27/06/2012, a las 02:12, Eric Furman escribió: We are all anxiously awaiting your diffs... On Tue, Jun 26, 2012, at 07:52 PM, Alvaro Mantilla Gimenez wrote: Why is not possible to apply a new css style to the current site? That has nothing to do with joomla (and similar) and would keep the site fast and compatible with, let's saylynx or whatever browser do you want to try with the site. I mean, for me the site is ok but a new css style could be a great thing too. Same speed, same compatibility, new design. - Alvaro El 26/06/2012, a las 16:25, STeve Andre' escribió: On 06/26/12 17:57, Pablo Velasco Fernández wrote: I mean.. A modern style. El 26/06/2012 23:55, Miod Vallat m...@online.fr escribió: Hi. I was loolong the FreeBSD web page. And its a cool page with a cool desing. Maybe OpenBSD should change their own page to a most visual web page. ( Its only my opinion ) What do you think? Last time I checked, you could use eyes to browse the OpenBSD website. Why do you consider it non-visual? Miod OK, a modern style. But why? Why is it that a web site that does what web sites should do--convey information--have to be redesigned in order to keep up with other sites? I see this all the time, at work where people seem to think that things like Joomlacough are a good thing. I shouldn't say just work, as I see it everywhere. The OpenBSD site is simple and fast. I keep it in /usr/www which consumes 291M as of today. It's a great web site as it is. --STeve Andre' [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 3:24 PM, richardtoo...@paradise.net.nz wrote: I'd prefer the (small) team of developers to work on the code. Well, that's a false dichotomy: not all OpenBSD committers work on the code. A handful work primarily on maintaining the website and/or documentation, because that's an important job too. Fair enough, I am not a developer, so it was entirely my 2c. I'm sure there are a lot of people who pop up and offer to do stuff but when the going gets tough and not much fun, they melt away like snowflakes. I've seen it in a number of organisations - lots of ideas, not enough implementers (if there's such a word.) Yeah. I get mails like that. We can make this much prettier using php. PHP is like s early 2000s. When's Python gonna go into base? /me ducks
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
PHP is like s early 2000s. When's Python gonna go into base? You're behind the times; python's been replaced by ruby running on top of mongodb
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Bret Lambert bret.lamb...@gmail.com wrote: PHP is like s early 2000s. When's Python gonna go into base? You're behind the times; python's been replaced by ruby running on top of mongodb ah crap! Off to buy a bunch of O'Reilly books about that. I guess that means migrating the mailing lists to Diaspora then?
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
That is a joke...right? Nothing is better than Django El 27/06/2012, a las 11:48, Bret Lambert escribió: PHP is like s early 2000s. When's Python gonna go into base? You're behind the times; python's been replaced by ruby running on top of mongodb [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 7:19 AM, Alvaro Mantilla Gimenez alv...@alvaromantilla.com wrote: Really? Can we do that? Yes. There's no filters in place on the mailing list to prevent people from submitting diffs, but there's also no guarantee that just because you send in a diff that it'll be committed either. If someone's serious about wanting to propose a website refresh, then go for it. Check out the www subdirectory from CVS, copy it to your own webserver, make the changes you had in mind, show it off, and be prepared for feedback. If it's just as functional as now and isn't any more work to maintain going forward, then it stands a chance to get committed. Seems, by this thread and previous about this subject, that nobody is waiting for any diffs regarding this Well, most of the comments on this thread are from people who don't have CVS commit access, so web site diffs wouldn't be terribly useful to them anyway. Speaking personally, I wouldn't mind if OpenBSD's website were updated. Just no one has volunteered yet to do the dirty work of actually coming up with a functional design and then updating the HTML. Talk is cheap.
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
Speaking personally, I wouldn't mind if OpenBSD's website were updated. Just no one has volunteered yet to do the dirty work of actually coming up with a functional design and then updating the HTML. Talk is cheap. Yes, talk is unbelievably cheap. On the other hand, if whatever anyone produces makes it harder (or even just new and different) for regular developers to change the ontent they do regularily change, they are going to fight you on it. And since they are developers, their no way will go a long way...
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
No hadoop and shards? Blasphemy! Sent from my iPhone 7 beta On Jun 27, 2012, at 2:10 PM, Alvaro Mantilla Gimenez alv...@alvaromantilla.com wrote: That is a joke...right? Nothing is better than Django El 27/06/2012, a las 11:48, Bret Lambert escribi¨®: PHP is like s early 2000s. When's Python gonna go into base? You're behind the times; python's been replaced by ruby running on top of mongodb [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On 06/27/2012 10:19 AM, Alvaro Mantilla Gimenez wrote: Really? Can we do that? Seems, by this thread and previous about this subject, that nobody is waiting for any diffs regarding this - Alvaro Of course, you can do anything you wish. No one is EXPECTING quality diffs, for our definition of quality, and therefore, waiting would be silly. But...if someone shows us something that is a REAL improvement and not just window dressing, or moving stuff for the sake of moving stuff, I'm sure we'd look at it. Most of what we've seen in the past has been AT BEST, shuffling things around to be more aesthetically pleasing to the one doing the shuffling, and indifferent to most of the rest of us. Maybe that says something about us, but have you actually LOOKED at any OpenBSD developers lately? Provinding visual pleasure is NOT our strong point! The ones that get our attention are the ones that say, here, I redesigned a few pages of your website, what do you think? We (obviously) haven't seen one that made us think, Wow, that's what we need to do!, but it shows someone cared enough to put some work behind their words. Others in this thread have described what would need to be maintained in any improvement. Let me add (as I don't think it was mentioned), static pages, managed by CVS, able to be mirrored by anyone, publicly or privately. Multiple rendering options would be nice. Oh, and we need to keep support for translations to other languages. Keep in mind, I don't think anyone in the project sees any major PROBLEMS with the current website desing, so you must not break anything that developers like right now. This will be difficult. The most interesting suggestion I've heard was to switch to mdoc-based source, then use that to generate html. Note the lack of any cool HTML buzzwords in that statement (and the end goal would be to end up with something that looks and feels very similar to the current site, so I'm sure the suggestions to improve the design would continue), but this might actually IMPROVE things for developers (saner layout language, known by virtually all the developers) hopefully leading to better consistency for readers, and a bunch of other wild ideas that I'm not ready to talk about publicly yet. Maybe one of those Lottery e-mails I keep getting will turn out to be true, allowing me to devote more time to this. :) Something about doing a .Xr cat 1 instead of the monstrosity which is a man page link currently is just SO bloomin' attractive to me... Nick. El 27/06/2012, a las 02:12, Eric Furman escribió: We are all anxiously awaiting your diffs... On Tue, Jun 26, 2012, at 07:52 PM, Alvaro Mantilla Gimenez wrote: Why is not possible to apply a new css style to the current site? That has nothing to do with joomla (and similar) and would keep the site fast and compatible with, let's saylynx or whatever browser do you want to try with the site. I mean, for me the site is ok but a new css style could be a great thing too. Same speed, same compatibility, new design. - Alvaro El 26/06/2012, a las 16:25, STeve Andre' escribió: On 06/26/12 17:57, Pablo Velasco Fernández wrote: I mean.. A modern style. El 26/06/2012 23:55, Miod Vallatm...@online.fr escribió: Hi. I was loolong the FreeBSD web page. And its a cool page with a cool desing. Maybe OpenBSD should change their own page to a most visual web page. ( Its only my opinion ) What do you think? Last time I checked, you could use eyes to browse the OpenBSD website. Why do you consider it non-visual? Miod OK, a modern style. But why? Why is it that a web site that does what web sites should do--convey information--have to be redesigned in order to keep up with other sites? I see this all the time, at work where people seem to think that things like Joomlacough are a good thing. I shouldn't say just work, as I see it everywhere. The OpenBSD site is simple and fast. I keep it in /usr/www which consumes 291M as of today. It's a great web site as it is. --STeve Andre' [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc] [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 08:19, Alvaro Mantilla Gimenez wrote: Really? Can we do that? Seems, by this thread and previous about this subject, that nobody is waiting for any diffs regarding this There's so much low hanging fruit that could be improved before somebody starts dicking about with the CSS. For instance, crypto.html is woefully out of date, to the point where it brags about using MD5. At least the page looks old so people will be forgiving. Slapping some rounded corners on it will only make things worse. I think better content is more important than better packaging, but so far we aren't getting many diffs for either.
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 07:48:46PM +0200, Bret Lambert wrote: PHP is like s early 2000s. ?When's Python gonna go into base? You're behind the times; python's been replaced by ruby running on top of mongodb I see each day more developers migrating their personal websites from php/python/ruby/whatever to static html. And well, it's impossible apply a patch to the content of a dynamic website. -- Juan Francisco Cantero Hurtado http://juanfra.info
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 08:19, Alvaro Mantilla Gimenez wrote: Really? Can we do that? Seems, by this thread and previous about this subject, that nobody is waiting for any diffs regarding this There's so much low hanging fruit that could be improved before somebody starts dicking about with the CSS. For instance, crypto.html is woefully out of date, to the point where it brags about using MD5. At least the page looks old so people will be forgiving. Slapping some rounded corners on it will only make things worse. I think better content is more important than better packaging, but so far we aren't getting many diffs for either. Ted, you are talking about 'content' of the web site, but noone else is talking about 'content'. They're talking about mark-up, about bling. The web pages could be full of the words 'shit shit shit', repeated over and over, as long as it has bling.
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 15:11, Nick Holland wrote: Others in this thread have described what would need to be maintained in any improvement. Let me add (as I don't think it was mentioned), static pages, managed by CVS, able to be mirrored by anyone, publicly or privately. Multiple rendering options would be nice. Oh, and we need to keep support for translations to other languages. Here's something I think would be a *major* improvement. Fix magicpoint to export slides in a format better than jpg. Some people's talks (hi henning!) take forever to load, the content is completely invisible to search engines, there's no way to fix typos, and on and on. My internet is kind of slow, so I doubt I could even download the 10th anniversary of pf talk in real time to follow along with an audio recording. I know Henning loves his fluffy pictures, but a basic html conversion of that info, minus the background images, would be awesome.
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Ted Unangst t...@tedunangst.com wrote: Here's something I think would be a *major* improvement. Fix magicpoint to export slides in a format better than jpg. Or extend mandoc to support Comic Sans so it can be used for presentation slide decks!
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 13:53, Matthew Dempsky wrote: On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Ted Unangst t...@tedunangst.com wrote: Here's something I think would be a *major* improvement. Fix magicpoint to export slides in a format better than jpg. Or extend mandoc to support Comic Sans so it can be used for presentation slide decks! Somebody didn't get the memo! http://5in5nyc.com/2012/05/31/dear-startups-lobster-is-the-new-comic-sans/
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
Speaking personally, I wouldn't mind if OpenBSD's website were updated. Just no one has volunteered yet to do the dirty work of actually coming up with a functional design and then updating the HTML. Talk is cheap. I'm willing to indirectly donate to OpenBSD by paying a professional graphic designer to redo parts of OpenBSD's visual design. His portfolio: www.flexstudio.ch Richard is a very good friend but still your typical starving artist with bills to pay. I did this before for other friends' businesses who loved it. No one is EXPECTING quality diffs, for our definition of quality, and therefore, waiting would be silly. But...if someone shows us something that is a REAL improvement and not just window dressing, or moving stuff for the sake of moving stuff, I'm sure we'd look at it. Graphic design is about communication, it's a means to an end, whatever gets in the way is a problem. Why you fail to get your message across doesn't matter -- OpenBSD's current anachronistic design or Wired-mag type sensory overload. Gimmicks like CSS, Javascript, Flash or whatever are a problem more often than not. Richard will argue that more than one color, in addition to black white, is a distraction (and that Vision Street Wear copied the Swastika). It took me _years_ to understand and respect that graphic design isn't all that subjective, that it's a craft, with harmonic rules similar to music, and that a programmer has as little credibility questioning his skill than him questioning mine. There's a ~5% window I can argue why something he did is counter-message but for the rest it takes me a few days to realize I'm wrong, he's right, a fucking genius in fact. I'm not going to argue the point with anyone; if you think beauty counters functionality I say iPod click-wheel or that opinions are like assholes; everybody has theirs then you're looking up your own :) -- p
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Peter Laufenberg open...@laufenberg.ch wrote: Speaking personally, I wouldn't mind if OpenBSD's website were updated. Just no one has volunteered yet to do the dirty work of actually coming up with a functional design and then updating the HTML. Talk is cheap. I'm willing to indirectly donate to OpenBSD by paying a professional graphic designer to redo parts of OpenBSD's visual design. His portfolio: that would be cool to presence as a bystander pay the dude regardless of what anybody says, and have him send the patches to a public mailing list would've been even more interesting if you told nobody that he was getting payed for the patches
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Peter Laufenberg open...@laufenberg.ch wrote: I'm willing to indirectly donate to OpenBSD by paying a professional graphic designer to redo parts of OpenBSD's visual design. His portfolio: that would be cool to presence as a bystander No te entiendo tío! pay the dude regardless of what anybody says, and have him send the patches to a public mailing list Maybe if this community wasn't so resistant to change (justified or not). would've been even more interesting if you told nobody that he was getting payed for the patches Truth is simpler. -- p
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
TLDR: It's not your place to tell others what they like. On 28 June 2012 07:59, Peter Laufenberg open...@laufenberg.ch wrote: It took me _years_ to understand and respect that graphic design isn't all that subjective, that it's a craft, with harmonic rules similar to music Maybe it does, but your comment sounds awfully like many other designer's wa-wa, emitted when people simply _don't like_ their creations A good example is the fixed-width websites that someone else mentioned earlier in the thread. Setting up sites like this takes away a user's choice for no obvious gain, except perhaps some laziness on the designer's part. Users might want their content wider for lots of reasons... such as, perhaps, displaying large text to aid the vision-impaired. Or they might be viewing it on a small screen, eg. smartphone... Do you think that if the reader finds reading to be optimal at a particular column width, that said reader may well adjust their browser window to suit? John
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:55 PM, Peter Laufenberg open...@laufenberg.ch wrote: On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Peter Laufenberg open...@laufenberg.ch wrote: I'm willing to indirectly donate to OpenBSD by paying a professional graphic designer to redo parts of OpenBSD's visual design. His portfolio: that would be cool to presence as a bystander No te entiendo tío! i rarely see people talking about the site layout on these lists, and i think it would be funny to see a typical designer dealing with; e.g., www/build/mirrors.pl it would be entertaining to follow the thread of patch submissions and developer reactions :) having said that, i think the site is ok
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On 06/27/12 17:58, Peter Laufenberg wrote: Speaking personally, I wouldn't mind if OpenBSD's website were updated. Just no one has volunteered yet to do the dirty work of actually coming up with a functional design and then updating the HTML. Talk is cheap. I'm willing to indirectly donate to OpenBSD by paying a professional graphic designer to redo parts of OpenBSD's visual design. ... No, this is the wrong direction. A good graphic designer is about as rare as a good programmer, but that's not what the website is about (and yes, a bad graphic designer is about as common as a bad programmer). However, I don't know any graphic designers who understand our goals and needs, and I can't imagine it...it's kinda like asking a concert pianist for advice on designing a chop saw. Technically, there's no reason a concert pianist couldn't be an expert on chop saws, but it is the kind of thing I'd kinda hope they would keep their hands really far away from, as it could really interfere with their primary occupation. OpenBSD is not trying to SELL anyone anything. IF you chose to come to OpenBSD, we wish to provide you information on using it, through many possible tools and mediums. If someone comes to the OpenBSD website and walks away because of its desing, that's good. If someone becomes an OpenBSD user BECAUSE of its desing, I really think that's bad. Graphic design is about communication, it's a means to an end, whatever gets in the way is a problem. Why you fail to get your message across doesn't matter -- OpenBSD's current anachronistic design or Wired-mag type sensory overload. Other than boring, no one has actually STATED a problem of the OpenBSD website. What message are we not getting across? If there is a PROBLEM you see that makes getting its information to you difficult, please state it and indicate what could be done better. i.e., saying, what you did to the faq/index.html page for this release makes no sense to me as I'm blind and using a screen reader would be constructive and useful (and I have no freaking idea what to do about it, and in fact, I've just made myself feel really guilty, as if someone WERE to say that to me, I don't want to undo it...) And really, if the website is about showing the product, what better could it be than boring? Exciting to install? nope. Rushes to do emergency upgrades because of yet another vulnerability? nope. Exciting website? nope. Fits, eh? :) Nick.
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
Peter Laufenberg [open...@laufenberg.ch] wrote: I'm willing to indirectly donate to OpenBSD by paying a professional graphic designer to redo parts of OpenBSD's visual design. His portfolio: www.flexstudio.ch Richard is a very good friend but still your typical starving artist with bills to pay. I did this before for other friends' businesses who loved it. As you can imagine, a project full of software developers isn't the best place to look for advancements in graphic design. Despite some of the rhetoric (comments) on the list about the suggestion, I'm sure a sharp design (with a clean implementation) would be appreciated. The problem is that opinions on what is appropriate will vary. IIRC, Theo did the current design himself after everyone else failed to come up with something good. And as many have said, there's plenty of actual improvements to be made that have nothing to do with graphic design. Yet, I have to agree the current design is showing its age. Chris
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
TLDR: It's not your place to tell others what they like. Am I? It's not about one individual likes, it's about whether your messages reaches a majority of your audience. Most of the filtering is subconscious and immune to fashion btw. On 28 June 2012 07:59, Peter Laufenberg open...@laufenberg.ch wrote: It took me _years_ to understand and respect that graphic design isn't all that subjective, that it's a craft, with harmonic rules similar to music Maybe it does, but your comment sounds awfully like many other designer's wa-wa, emitted when people simply _don't like_ their creations No it doesn't. However, your wahhh-wahhh comment sounds like you think it's all BS anyway. A good example is the fixed-width websites that someone else mentioned earlier in the thread. Setting up sites like this takes away a user's choice for no obvious gain, except perhaps some laziness on the designer's part. Users might want their content wider for lots of reasons... such as, perhaps, displaying large text to aid the vision-impaired. Or they might be viewing it on a small screen, eg. smartphone... Do you think that if the reader finds reading to be optimal at a particular column width, that said reader may well adjust their browser window to suit? I never spoke of fixed-width or any technical restrictions; those are set by whoever emits the message, not the designer. -- p
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 5:55 PM, john slee indig...@oldcorollas.org wrote: Do you think that if the reader finds reading to be optimal at a particular column width, that said reader may well adjust their browser window to suit? sorry but that's complete bs. you are essentially expecting users to re-size the window according to each site, since it's impossible for all sites to display optimally under fixed browser-window dimensions without conceding to capped text width... and that's a situation where worst case happens to match the usual case the 60-72 cap train took off ages ago. i don't read books like it's a chinese fortune string, nor do i subject my newspaper leisure ours to the same torture
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
Hi, Matthew Dempsky wrote on Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 01:53:09PM -0700: On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Ted Unangst t...@tedunangst.com wrote: Here's something I think would be a *major* improvement. Fix magicpoint to export slides in a format better than jpg. That's not the only thing that could be fixed about magicpoint; however, fixing magicpoint is not a job for the fainthearted. The only time i used it so far (ironically, to present about mandoc), i ended up publishing the slides in plain HTML, with heavy manual postprocessing: http://www.openbsd.org/papers/bsdcan11-mandoc-openbsd.html Or extend mandoc to support Comic Sans so it can be used for presentation slide decks! Actually, (g)roff is usable for preparing slides. As usual in the roff world, pick your favourite macro package. For example, here is one based on the mm macros: http://www.science.uva.nl/~bobd/useful/gpresent/ As much as i like mdoc(7) for formatting manuals, it's not an obvious choice for slides, and man(7) even less so. So you really need groff(1), mandoc(1) won't do. I'm not currently aware of any project to add mm(7) support to mandoc(1), let alone gpresent. In particular, it isn't on my TODO list at all. Yours, Ingo
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 6:10 PM, Nick Holland n...@holland-consulting.net wrote: Other than boring, no one has actually STATED a problem of the OpenBSD website. What message are we not getting across? If there is a PROBLEM you see that makes getting its information to you difficult, please state it and indicate what could be done better. i.e., saying, what you did to the faq/index.html page for this release makes no sense to me as I'm blind and using a screen reader would be constructive and useful (and I have no freaking idea what to do about it, and in fact, I've just made myself feel really guilty, as if someone WERE to say that to me, I don't want to undo it...) ok concretely, the man and webcvs pages do not have links back to openbsd.org good design would be to make the openbsd logo at the top left corner be the link that's a big nono in site layout. you should make the site as browseable as possible (see how you can talk about design without talking about aesthetics) another thing is, talking with a professional designer will reveal many problems like these, the difference being that you'll get information in meaningful chunks instead of little updates such as this mail
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
I agree 100%; the 1st question an artist would ask is what are you trying to accomplish? If you don't want more OpenBSD users/contributors and really the message is piss off, nothing to see here, we're fine as is, leave us alone, then the current web site as well as references to floppies and tapes in the docs are spot on. Seriously. -- p On 06/27/12 17:58, Peter Laufenberg wrote: Speaking personally, I wouldn't mind if OpenBSD's website were updated. Just no one has volunteered yet to do the dirty work of actually coming up with a functional design and then updating the HTML. Talk is cheap. I'm willing to indirectly donate to OpenBSD by paying a professional graphic designer to redo parts of OpenBSD's visual design. ... No, this is the wrong direction. A good graphic designer is about as rare as a good programmer, but that's not what the website is about (and yes, a bad graphic designer is about as common as a bad programmer). However, I don't know any graphic designers who understand our goals and needs, and I can't imagine it...it's kinda like asking a concert pianist for advice on designing a chop saw. Technically, there's no reason a concert pianist couldn't be an expert on chop saws, but it is the kind of thing I'd kinda hope they would keep their hands really far away from, as it could really interfere with their primary occupation. OpenBSD is not trying to SELL anyone anything. IF you chose to come to OpenBSD, we wish to provide you information on using it, through many possible tools and mediums. If someone comes to the OpenBSD website and walks away because of its desing, that's good. If someone becomes an OpenBSD user BECAUSE of its desing, I really think that's bad. Graphic design is about communication, it's a means to an end, whatever gets in the way is a problem. Why you fail to get your message across doesn't matter -- OpenBSD's current anachronistic design or Wired-mag type sensory overload. Other than boring, no one has actually STATED a problem of the OpenBSD website. What message are we not getting across? If there is a PROBLEM you see that makes getting its information to you difficult, please state it and indicate what could be done better. i.e., saying, what you did to the faq/index.html page for this release makes no sense to me as I'm blind and using a screen reader would be constructive and useful (and I have no freaking idea what to do about it, and in fact, I've just made myself feel really guilty, as if someone WERE to say that to me, I don't want to undo it...) And really, if the website is about showing the product, what better could it be than boring? Exciting to install? nope. Rushes to do emergency upgrades because of yet another vulnerability? nope. Exciting website? nope. Fits, eh? :) Nick.
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 6:18 PM, Ingo Schwarze schwa...@usta.de wrote: Hi, Matthew Dempsky wrote on Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 01:53:09PM -0700: On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Ted Unangst t...@tedunangst.com wrote: Here's something I think would be a *major* improvement. Fix magicpoint to export slides in a format better than jpg. That's not the only thing that could be fixed about magicpoint; however, fixing magicpoint is not a job for the fainthearted. The only time i used it so far (ironically, to present about mandoc), i ended up publishing the slides in plain HTML, with heavy manual postprocessing: http://www.openbsd.org/papers/bsdcan11-mandoc-openbsd.html that page is encoded iso 8859-1, doesn't state so anywhere, breaks with browsers configured to default to utf8 in the absence of encoding qualifiers all those little things add up, man
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Andres Perera andre...@zoho.com wrote: ... that page is encoded iso 8859-1, doesn't state so anywhere, breaks with browsers configured to default to utf8 in the absence of encoding qualifiers Those browsers are violating the HTTP/1.1 standard. RFC 2616, section 3.7.1, paragraph 4: The charset parameter is used with some media types to define the character set (section 3.4) of the data. When no explicit charset parameter is provided by the sender, media subtypes of the text type are defined to have a default charset value of ISO-8859-1 when received via HTTP. Data in character sets other than ISO-8859-1 or its subsets MUST be labeled with an appropriate charset value. See section 3.4.1 for compatibility problems. And then there's section 3.4.1: 3.4.1 Missing Charset Some HTTP/1.0 software has interpreted a Content-Type header without charset parameter incorrectly to mean recipient should guess. Senders wishing to defeat this behavior MAY include a charset parameter even when the charset is ISO-8859-1 and SHOULD do so when it is known that it will not confuse the recipient. Unfortunately, some older HTTP/1.0 clients did not deal properly with an explicit charset parameter. HTTP/1.1 recipients MUST respect the charset label provided by the sender; and those user agents that have a provision to guess a charset MUST use the charset from the content-type field if they support that charset, rather than the recipient's preference, when initially displaying a document. See section 3.7.1. Wait, was that a warning that an explicit charset parameter broke some older browsers? Huh... Philip Guenther
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 7:43 PM, Philip Guenther guent...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Andres Perera andre...@zoho.com wrote: ... that page is encoded iso 8859-1, doesn't state so anywhere, breaks with browsers configured to default to utf8 in the absence of encoding qualifiers Those browsers are violating the HTTP/1.1 standard. RFC 2616, section 3.7.1, paragraph 4: The charset parameter is used with some media types to define the character set (section 3.4) of the data. When no explicit charset parameter is provided by the sender, media subtypes of the text type are defined to have a default charset value of ISO-8859-1 when received via HTTP. Data in character sets other than ISO-8859-1 or its subsets MUST be labeled with an appropriate charset value. See section 3.4.1 for compatibility problems. firefox and ie are nice enough to assume iso-8859-1. that's not the case with management configured browsers, where RFCs don't mean a damn And then there's section 3.4.1: 3.4.1 Missing Charset Some HTTP/1.0 software has interpreted a Content-Type header without charset parameter incorrectly to mean recipient should guess. Senders wishing to defeat this behavior MAY include a charset parameter even when the charset is ISO-8859-1 and SHOULD do so when it is known that it will not confuse the recipient. Unfortunately, some older HTTP/1.0 clients did not deal properly with an explicit charset parameter. HTTP/1.1 recipients MUST respect the charset label provided by the sender; and those user agents that have a provision to guess a charset MUST use the charset from the content-type field if they support that charset, rather than the recipient's preference, when initially displaying a document. See section 3.7.1. Wait, was that a warning that an explicit charset parameter broke some older browsers? Huh... wtf? a charset parameter is present in www/index.html so i guess that particular page isn't catering to an unrealistic section of an rfc i sense some conflicting interests here Philip Guenther
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
Peter Laufenberg [open...@laufenberg.ch] wrote: I'm willing to indirectly donate to OpenBSD by paying a professional graphic designer to redo parts of OpenBSD's visual design. His portfolio: www.flexstudio.ch Richard is a very good friend but still your typical starving artist with bills to pay. I did this before for other friends' businesses who loved it. As you can imagine, a project full of software developers isn't the best place to look for advancements in graphic design. WipeOut on Playstation 1. In 1995 Psygnosis UK hired Designers Republic whose portfolio previously included crucifixes with barcodes for underground vinyl sleeves. It was a HUGE advancement for graphic design as well as music (Leftfield, Orbital). Apple is full of developers and getting more industrial design praise than Philippe Stark's lemon juicers. Sure you got your wannabe screwups like Ubuntu whatever and Windows 8, but software and art aren't antagonistic. Software architecture, elegant code, etc. -- p
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On 27/06/2012 22:53, Matthew Dempsky wrote: On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Ted Unangstt...@tedunangst.com wrote: Here's something I think would be a *major* improvement. Fix magicpoint to export slides in a format better than jpg. Or extend mandoc to support Comic Sans so it can be used for presentation slide decks! The following was brought to you by Dr. J. Beam, Esq.: http://mdocml.bsd.lv/foo.1.html (mandoc -Thtml -Ostyle=barf.css mandoc.1 foo.1.html)
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Jun 27, 2012 8:41 PM, Andres Perera andre...@zoho.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 7:43 PM, Philip Guenther guent...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Andres Perera andre...@zoho.com wrote: ... that page is encoded iso 8859-1, doesn't state so anywhere, breaks with browsers configured to default to utf8 in the absence of encoding qualifiers Those browsers are violating the HTTP/1.1 standard. RFC 2616, section 3.7.1, paragraph 4: The charset parameter is used with some media types to define the character set (section 3.4) of the data. When no explicit charset parameter is provided by the sender, media subtypes of the text type are defined to have a default charset value of ISO-8859-1 when received via HTTP. Data in character sets other than ISO-8859-1 or its subsets MUST be labeled with an appropriate charset value. See section 3.4.1 for compatibility problems. firefox and ie are nice enough to assume iso-8859-1. that's not the case with management configured browsers, where RFCs don't mean a damn And then there's section 3.4.1: 3.4.1 Missing Charset Some HTTP/1.0 software has interpreted a Content-Type header without charset parameter incorrectly to mean recipient should guess. Senders wishing to defeat this behavior MAY include a charset parameter even when the charset is ISO-8859-1 and SHOULD do so when it is known that it will not confuse the recipient. Unfortunately, some older HTTP/1.0 clients did not deal properly with an explicit charset parameter. HTTP/1.1 recipients MUST respect the charset label provided by the sender; and those user agents that have a provision to guess a charset MUST use the charset from the content-type field if they support that charset, rather than the recipient's preference, when initially displaying a document. See section 3.7.1. Wait, was that a warning that an explicit charset parameter broke some older browsers? Huh... wtf? a charset parameter is present in www/index.html so i guess that particular page isn't catering to an unrealistic section of an rfc i sense some conflicting interests here Philip Guenther I'm a user not developer. This is as when I go to the store to buy tawlet paper... The feel and usability is more important when used, Not how the plastic package looks. Cody
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On 28 June 2012 01:17, Andres Perera andre...@zoho.com wrote: http://www.openbsd.org/papers/bsdcan11-mandoc-openbsd.html that page is encoded iso 8859-1, doesn't state so anywhere, breaks with browsers configured to default to utf8 in the absence of encoding qualifiers $ telnet www.openbsd.org 80 Trying 142.244.12.42... Connected to www.openbsd.org. Escape character is '^]'. GET /papers/bsdcan11-mandoc-openbsd.html HTTP/1.1 Host: www.openbsd.org HTTP/1.1 200 OK Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 23:59:19 GMT Server: Apache Last-Modified: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:11:28 GMT ETag: 65f60c9352dee7ec594696cdfb681e86316269ef Accept-Ranges: bytes Content-Length: 32754 Content-Type: text/html HTML BODY ... Okay, this could transmit Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 but doesn't, but that's ok, we can do this on a page-by-page basis with a META tag, which ought to be ignored by browsers that don't understand it: $ diff -u 'bsdcan11-mandoc-openbsd.html' 'bsdcan11-mandoc-openbsd.html.new' --- bsdcan11-mandoc-openbsd.html2012-06-28 02:12:19.0 +0200 +++ bsdcan11-mandoc-openbsd.html.new2012-06-28 02:07:54.0 +0200 @@ -1,4 +1,7 @@ HTML +HEAD +META http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 / +HEAD/ BODY H1A HREF=http://www.bsdcan.org/2011/schedule/events/230.en.html;Mandoc in OpenBSD/A/H1 Generally speaking, I find that on misc@ the words you should make are taken far less seriously than even the most pitiful of diffs. regards, ropers
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
that patch is not a solution a good solution is use m4 or another macro language (maybe cpp since apparently line-based macro languages are liked by mandoc freaks) to add an include to all pages in the www/* repository also, a commit hook that ensures that newly added or modified pages meet a set of requirements On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 8:55 PM, ropers rop...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 June 2012 01:17, Andres Perera andre...@zoho.com wrote: http://www.openbsd.org/papers/bsdcan11-mandoc-openbsd.html that page is encoded iso 8859-1, doesn't state so anywhere, breaks with browsers configured to default to utf8 in the absence of encoding qualifiers $ telnet www.openbsd.org 80 Trying 142.244.12.42... Connected to www.openbsd.org. Escape character is '^]'. GET /papers/bsdcan11-mandoc-openbsd.html HTTP/1.1 Host: www.openbsd.org HTTP/1.1 200 OK Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2012 23:59:19 GMT Server: Apache Last-Modified: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:11:28 GMT ETag: 65f60c9352dee7ec594696cdfb681e86316269ef Accept-Ranges: bytes Content-Length: 32754 Content-Type: text/html HTML BODY ... Okay, this could transmit Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 but doesn't, but that's ok, we can do this on a page-by-page basis with a META tag, which ought to be ignored by browsers that don't understand it: $ diff -u 'bsdcan11-mandoc-openbsd.html' 'bsdcan11-mandoc-openbsd.html.new' --- bsdcan11-mandoc-openbsd.html 2012-06-28 02:12:19.0 +0200 +++ bsdcan11-mandoc-openbsd.html.new 2012-06-28 02:07:54.0 +0200 @@ -1,4 +1,7 @@ HTML +HEAD +META http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 / +HEAD/ BODY H1A HREF=http://www.bsdcan.org/2011/schedule/events/230.en.html;Mandoc in OpenBSD/A/H1 Generally speaking, I find that on misc@ the words you should make are taken far less seriously than even the most pitiful of diffs. regards, ropers
OpenBSD's webpage desing
Hi. I was loolong the FreeBSD web page. And its a cool page with a cool desing. Maybe OpenBSD should change their own page to a most visual web page. ( Its only my opinion ) What do you think?
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
Hi. I was loolong the FreeBSD web page. And its a cool page with a cool desing. Maybe OpenBSD should change their own page to a most visual web page. ( Its only my opinion ) What do you think? Last time I checked, you could use eyes to browse the OpenBSD website. Why do you consider it non-visual? Miod
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Pablo Velasco Fernández warlock...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. I was loolong the FreeBSD web page. And its a cool page with a cool desing. Maybe OpenBSD should change their own page to a most visual web page. ( Its only my opinion ) What do you think? I like coconut flavored ice-cream.
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On 26 June 2012 18:46, Pablo Velasco Fernández warlock...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. I was loolong the FreeBSD web page. And its a cool page with a cool desing. Maybe OpenBSD should change their own page to a most visual web page. ( Its only my opinion ) What do you think? Yeah, FreeBSD webpage is cool, until you need to actually use it, I always have trouble finding something in it. OpenBSD web page: - It's small - It's simple, just basic HTML, some cgi, nothing fancy, all very easy to maintain. - You find anything in less than 1 minute. - It looks nice, since that is how webpages should look like (IMHO). If you really wanna improve that, I'd suggest reworking the same webpage, but making it possible for people with vision impairment to use it more effectively, I've been told that there are a some ways to improve it.
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 11:46:36PM +0200, Pablo Velasco Fern?ndez wrote: Hi. I was loolong the FreeBSD web page. And its a cool page with a cool desing. Maybe OpenBSD should change their own page to a most visual web page. ( Its only my opinion ) What do you think? From FAQ: 8.23 - Why do the OpenBSD web pages not conform to HTML4/XHTML? The present web pages have been carefully crafted to work on a wide variety of actual browsers going back to browser versions 4.0 and later. We do not want to make these older pages conform to HTML4 or XHTML until we're sure that they will also work with older browsers; it's just not a priority. We welcome new contributors, but suggest you work on writing code, or on documenting new aspects of the system, not on tweaking the existing web pages to conform to newer standards. I often find that I need to access OpenBSD web pages from base console you get after login. wget elinks I find the actual information much more important than pretty sites. I am in Texas, all I need to do is look out a window to see pretty stuff. (that's a joke. Texas is ugly as hell!) Chris Bennett
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
I mean.. A modern style. El 26/06/2012 23:55, Miod Vallat m...@online.fr escribió: Hi. I was loolong the FreeBSD web page. And its a cool page with a cool desing. Maybe OpenBSD should change their own page to a most visual web page. ( Its only my opinion ) What do you think? Last time I checked, you could use eyes to browse the OpenBSD website. Why do you consider it non-visual? Miod
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Pablo Velasco Fernández warlock...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. I was loolong the FreeBSD web page. And its a cool page with a cool desing. Maybe OpenBSD should change their own page to a most visual web page. ( Its only my opinion ) What do you think? The FAQ could definitely use some +1 buttons!!
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
Miod Vallat wrote on Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 02:55:41PM MST: Last time I checked, you could use eyes to browse the OpenBSD website. Why do you consider it non-visual? It's non-visual because you can easily parse its HTML, without the cumbersome use of eyes. The best option, of course, it to infuse Javascript and make the entire site dynamically-loaded. Make sure to have the Javascript embedded in each generated page. This is the best way to make the webpages much harder to programmatically parse, and therefore more visual: you'll have to look at the generated page each time, as every true web user does, to know really what's going on. :-P
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Pablo Velasco Fernández warlock...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. I was loolong the FreeBSD web page. And its a cool page with a cool desing. Maybe OpenBSD should change their own page to a most visual web page. ( Its only my opinion ) What do you think? I'm on freebsd page with lynx and don't see what you're talking about. :) -B
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
Quoting Pablo Velasco Fernández warlock...@gmail.com: I mean.. A modern style. El 26/06/2012 23:55, Miod Vallat m...@online.fr escribió: Hi. I was loolong the FreeBSD web page. And its a cool page with a cool desing. Maybe OpenBSD should change their own page to a most visual web page. ( Its only my opinion ) What do you think? Last time I checked, you could use eyes to browse the OpenBSD website. Why do you consider it non-visual? Miod I'd prefer the (small) team of developers to work on the code.
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
From: Pablo Velasco Fernández warlock...@gmail.com Sent: Tue Jun 26 23:46:36 CEST 2012 To: misc@openbsd.org Subject: OpenBSD's webpage desing Hi. I was loolong the FreeBSD web page. And its a cool page with a cool desing. Maybe OpenBSD should change their own page to a most visual web page. ( Its only my opinion ) What do you think? It as to be fonctionnal easy browse, visual effects so are just useless waste of time website with animations, gadgets pop-ups are just shit
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 2:57 PM, Pablo Velasco Fernández warlock...@gmail.com wrote: I mean.. A modern style. Honestly, because it's just not a high priority. The OpenBSD website is very information dense and its maintained by people who care a lot about the information being accurate and useful and not as much about it looking fancy. That said, I really don't think they're mutually exclusive. If someone with good web design skills were to suggest (preferably in diff form) ways that OpenBSD's website could be improved without compromising its usefulness to older web browsers or making it any more difficult to maintain, I don't think anyone's going to argue against it.
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 06:59:28PM -0300, Christiano F. Haesbaert wrote: If you really wanna improve that, I'd suggest reworking the same webpage, but making it possible for people with vision impairment to use it more effectively, I've been told that there are a some ways to improve it. God man, people with visual problems just need to use basic tools like this: banner `wget http://www.openbsd.org/ -O -` Problem solved! Duh
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
We could add a few facebook 'i like' buttons here and there and have a m.openbsd.org for iphones and androis (no openbsd smartphone yet). After that we could kill lynx from the tree because it will be useless. -luis On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Matthew Dempsky matt...@dempsky.orgwrote: On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Pablo Velasco Fernández warlock...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. I was loolong the FreeBSD web page. And its a cool page with a cool desing. Maybe OpenBSD should change their own page to a most visual web page. ( Its only my opinion ) What do you think? The FAQ could definitely use some +1 buttons!!
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 3:24 PM, richardtoo...@paradise.net.nz wrote: I'd prefer the (small) team of developers to work on the code. Well, that's a false dichotomy: not all OpenBSD committers work on the code. A handful work primarily on maintaining the website and/or documentation, because that's an important job too.
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
Quoting Matthew Dempsky matt...@dempsky.org: On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 3:24 PM, richardtoo...@paradise.net.nz wrote: I'd prefer the (small) team of developers to work on the code. Well, that's a false dichotomy: not all OpenBSD committers work on the code. A handful work primarily on maintaining the website and/or documentation, because that's an important job too. Fair enough, I am not a developer, so it was entirely my 2c. I'm sure there are a lot of people who pop up and offer to do stuff but when the going gets tough and not much fun, they melt away like snowflakes. I've seen it in a number of organisations - lots of ideas, not enough implementers (if there's such a word.) I appreciate OpenBSD and the work that goes into it and I would like to contribute more than I do - but my time is short, and there are other things I'd like to do more ... choices, choices!
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On 06/26/12 17:57, Pablo Velasco Fernández wrote: I mean.. A modern style. El 26/06/2012 23:55, Miod Vallat m...@online.fr escribió: Hi. I was loolong the FreeBSD web page. And its a cool page with a cool desing. Maybe OpenBSD should change their own page to a most visual web page. ( Its only my opinion ) What do you think? Last time I checked, you could use eyes to browse the OpenBSD website. Why do you consider it non-visual? Miod OK, a modern style. But why? Why is it that a web site that does what web sites should do--convey information--have to be redesigned in order to keep up with other sites? I see this all the time, at work where people seem to think that things like Joomlacough are a good thing. I shouldn't say just work, as I see it everywhere. The OpenBSD site is simple and fast. I keep it in /usr/www which consumes 291M as of today. It's a great web site as it is. --STeve Andre'
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
Duh, this is OpenBSD. We use banner `ftp -o - http://www.openbsd.org/` Chris Bennett [ch...@bennettconstruction.us] wrote: On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 06:59:28PM -0300, Christiano F. Haesbaert wrote: If you really wanna improve that, I'd suggest reworking the same webpage, but making it possible for people with vision impairment to use it more effectively, I've been told that there are a some ways to improve it. God man, people with visual problems just need to use basic tools like this: banner `wget http://www.openbsd.org/ -O -` Problem solved! Duh -- Keep them laughing half the time, scared of you the other half. And always keep them guessing. -- Clair George
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
Chris Bennett ch...@bennettconstruction.us wrote: On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 06:59:28PM -0300, Christiano F. Haesbaert wrote: If you really wanna improve that, I'd suggest reworking the same webpage, but making it possible for people with vision impairment to use it more effectively, I've been told that there are a some ways to improve it. God man, people with visual problems just need to use basic tools like this: banner `wget http://www.openbsd.org/ -O -` Bah. wget isn't in base. Problem solved! Duh
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
Why is not possible to apply a new css style to the current site? That has nothing to do with joomla (and similar) and would keep the site fast and compatible with, let's saylynx or whatever browser do you want to try with the site. I mean, for me the site is ok but a new css style could be a great thing too. Same speed, same compatibility, new design. - Alvaro El 26/06/2012, a las 16:25, STeve Andre' escribió: On 06/26/12 17:57, Pablo Velasco Fernández wrote: I mean.. A modern style. El 26/06/2012 23:55, Miod Vallat m...@online.fr escribió: Hi. I was loolong the FreeBSD web page. And its a cool page with a cool desing. Maybe OpenBSD should change their own page to a most visual web page. ( Its only my opinion ) What do you think? Last time I checked, you could use eyes to browse the OpenBSD website. Why do you consider it non-visual? Miod OK, a modern style. But why? Why is it that a web site that does what web sites should do--convey information--have to be redesigned in order to keep up with other sites? I see this all the time, at work where people seem to think that things like Joomlacough are a good thing. I shouldn't say just work, as I see it everywhere. The OpenBSD site is simple and fast. I keep it in /usr/www which consumes 291M as of today. It's a great web site as it is. --STeve Andre' [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 3:24 PM, richardtoo...@paradise.net.nz wrote: I'd prefer the (small) team of developers to work on the code. Well, that's a false dichotomy: not all OpenBSD committers work on the code. A handful work primarily on maintaining the website and/or documentation, because that's an important job too. Fair enough, I am not a developer, so it was entirely my 2c. I'm sure there are a lot of people who pop up and offer to do stuff but when the going gets tough and not much fun, they melt away like snowflakes. I've seen it in a number of organisations - lots of ideas, not enough implementers (if there's such a word.) Yeah. I get mails like that. We can make this much prettier using php.
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
If the site is OK as it is, why add more fluff? Style sheets certainly aren't blotund like Jooma is, but why go there for the site? Guess I'm a minimalist. --STeve Andre' On 06/26/12 21:52, Alvaro Mantilla Gimenez wrote: Why is not possible to apply a new css style to the current site? That has nothing to do with joomla (and similar) and would keep the site fast and compatible with, let's saylynx or whatever browser do you want to try with the site. I mean, for me the site is ok but a new css style could be a great thing too. Same speed, same compatibility, new design. - Alvaro El 26/06/2012, a las 16:25, STeve Andre' escribió: On 06/26/12 17:57, Pablo Velasco Fernández wrote: I mean.. A modern style. El 26/06/2012 23:55, Miod Vallat m...@online.fr escribió: Hi. I was loolong the FreeBSD web page. And its a cool page with a cool desing. Maybe OpenBSD should change their own page to a most visual web page. ( Its only my opinion ) What do you think? Last time I checked, you could use eyes to browse the OpenBSD website. Why do you consider it non-visual? Miod OK, a modern style. But why? Why is it that a web site that does what web sites should do--convey information--have to be redesigned in order to keep up with other sites? I see this all the time, at work where people seem to think that things like Joomlacough are a good thing. I shouldn't say just work, as I see it everywhere. The OpenBSD site is simple and fast. I keep it in /usr/www which consumes 291M as of today. It's a great web site as it is. --STeve Andre'
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 11:46 PM, Pablo Velasco Fernández warlock...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. I was loolong the FreeBSD web page. And its a cool page with a cool desing. Maybe OpenBSD should change their own page to a most visual web page. ( Its only my opinion ) What do you think? Hate overusing of word 'cool'. BTW this is probably fine answer as well http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-miscm=125312023423457w=2
Re: OpenBSD's webpage desing
Ok. I understand. I forgot that the webpage desing allows you to use a lightweight browsers. Thanks :) El 27/06/2012 06:17, Tomas Bodzar tomas.bod...@gmail.com escribió: On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 11:46 PM, Pablo Velasco Fernández warlock...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. I was loolong the FreeBSD web page. And its a cool page with a cool desing. Maybe OpenBSD should change their own page to a most visual web page. ( Its only my opinion ) What do you think? Hate overusing of word 'cool'. BTW this is probably fine answer as well http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-miscm=125312023423457w=2
