Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2020-01-02 Thread Strahil Nikolov
On January 1, 2020 2:14:03 PM GMT+02:00, Frank Beuth wrote: >On Wed, Jan 01, 2020 at 10:29:53AM +, e...@isdaq.com wrote: >>> But I don't want deeper point to get missed -- which is that if eecd >>> doesn't like the idea of regulating what the programmer can do, then >the >>> programmer has

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2020-01-01 Thread Marc Chantreux
hello, > Actually all the cool and useful ideas that perl6 had DID trickle down > into perl5 a few years ago. even if you load a lot of modules from CPAN (which i tried to do with https://metacpan.org/pod/Sympatic), this is not even close to be true! for example, raku has * PEGs are objects *

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2020-01-01 Thread Frank Beuth
On Wed, Jan 01, 2020 at 10:29:53AM +, e...@isdaq.com wrote: But I don't want deeper point to get missed -- which is that if eecd doesn't like the idea of regulating what the programmer can do, then the programmer has to have the skills to safely write unsafe code. no you're belying the

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2020-01-01 Thread Marc Espie
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 11:56:46PM -0700, Bob Beck wrote: > read fucking code. change fucking things. send some fucking diffs. get > fucking yelled at. learn from your fucking mistakes. show some fucking > passion. filter fucking misc@ and all this useless bleating into the > toilet. > > none

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2020-01-01 Thread Marc Espie
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 09:06:38PM +0100, Christer Solskogen wrote: > On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 5:50 PM Marc Espie wrote: > > > We did retire vax, and we no longer have any platform without dynamic > > libraries. > > > > > OT but: out of sheer curiosity, why didn't VAX support dynamic libraries?

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2020-01-01 Thread Marc Espie
On Wed, Jan 01, 2020 at 10:06:47AM +0100, Anders Andersson wrote: > On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 4:51 AM Stuart Longland > wrote: > > > Perl 6 will be a major change though, more disruptive than the Python2→3 > > mess was. So we may be in for some "fun" in the near future. > > Gotta stop this before

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2020-01-01 Thread Marc Espie
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 10:01:50PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 15:57:47 -0600 > Eric Zylstra wrote: > > > Proposing such a huge project without the ability to do it? I may > > have been a little disrespectful, but not the first one in the > > thread. And my point wasn’t to

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2020-01-01 Thread eecd
> where do I sign up for OpenBSD write-perfect-C-code programmer training bootcamp? here we go ladies and gents an unadulterated look at the manchild in the wild as he looks for something else to take responsibility for his work. after decades of being spoonfed it's lost the ability to fend

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2020-01-01 Thread Frank Beuth
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 11:56:46PM -0700, Bob Beck wrote: read fucking code. change fucking things. send some fucking diffs. get fucking yelled at. learn from your fucking mistakes. show some fucking passion. filter fucking misc@ and all this useless bleating into the toilet. none of us have

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2020-01-01 Thread Anders Andersson
On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 4:51 AM Stuart Longland wrote: > Perl 6 will be a major change though, more disruptive than the Python2→3 > mess was. So we may be in for some "fun" in the near future. Gotta stop this before it derails: perl 6 is not the next version of perl 5. It's not compatible, it's

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Bob Beck
read fucking code. change fucking things. send some fucking diffs. get fucking yelled at. learn from your fucking mistakes. show some fucking passion. filter fucking misc@ and all this useless bleating into the toilet. none of us have time to spoon feed you in some “boot camp” there are two

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Frank Beuth
On Wed, Jan 01, 2020 at 04:00:37AM +, e...@isdaq.com wrote: rather than the programmer being responsible for writing unsafe code we need to regulate what the programmer can do just like we need to regulate what the community can say, do, see, and think. where do I sign up for OpenBSD

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread eecd
> I like where this thread is headed. > > To expand on this idea, maybe we should demonstrate how diversity and > inclusiveness can work in an operating system via language choices. > Why stop at TCL and LUA? Or even scripting languages in general. Why > not Go, Rust, Haskell and Scala too? >

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Stuart Longland
On 1/1/20 6:06 am, Christer Solskogen wrote: > On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 5:50 PM Marc Espie wrote: > >> We did retire vax, and we no longer have any platform without dynamic >> libraries. >> >> > OT but: out of sheer curiosity, why didn't VAX support dynamic libraries? > Did vax have an MMU?

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Stuart Longland
On 1/1/20 3:13 am, danieljb...@icloud.com wrote: > I'm curious to know if there are any languages other than C and perl in > use in OpenBSD base. /bin/sh? *ducks* -- Stuart Longland (aka Redhatter, VK4MSL) I haven't lost my mind... ...it's backed up on a tape somewhere.

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Stuart Longland
On 31/12/19 10:57 pm, Daniel Boyd wrote: > As one of the few remaining people out there who considers perl to be their > favorite language—starting to wonder if it’s just me and Larry Wall at this > point—I’d like to say that perl should stay in base on its merits, all the > perl-based system

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Theo de Raadt
Steve Litt wrote: > On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 15:57:47 -0600 > Eric Zylstra wrote: > > > Proposing such a huge project without the ability to do it? I may > > have been a little disrespectful, but not the first one in the > > thread. And my point wasn’t to be disrespectful, but to point out > >

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Steve Litt
On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 15:57:47 -0600 Eric Zylstra wrote: > Proposing such a huge project without the ability to do it? I may > have been a little disrespectful, but not the first one in the > thread. And my point wasn’t to be disrespectful, but to point out > that most proposals unaccompanied by

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Daniel Boyd
We could always rewrite the entire operating system in Pascal. FreePascal and GNU Pascal are both GPL, so we’ll need to write a new compiler as well. Shouldn’t take too long. Who wants to go register openpascal.org? I’ll get a diff started program OpenBSD; begin { some code here } end. Sent

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Christopher Turkel
I am still waiting to this diff myself. On Tuesday, December 31, 2019, Theo de Raadt wrote: > I guess I'm saying in these trying times it is considered disrespectful > to dismiss completely labour-unsupported "ideas", obviously once we accept > the Great Idea the OP will sit down and do all the

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Theo de Raadt
I guess I'm saying in these trying times it is considered disrespectful to dismiss completely labour-unsupported "ideas", obviously once we accept the Great Idea the OP will sit down and do all the required work to prove the cast after the fact. Eric Zylstra wrote: > Proposing such a huge

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Eric Zylstra
Proposing such a huge project without the ability to do it? I may have been a little disrespectful, but not the first one in the thread. And my point wasn’t to be disrespectful, but to point out that most proposals unaccompanied by code and that don’t solve obvious problems don’t seem to be

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Theo de Raadt
Isn't it a bit disrespectful to assume someone on misc@ is going to write such a large diff? > Maybe the OP could just go ahead and replace all the Perl code with Lua and > then ask for feedback from the other devs? That is the OpenBSD way, right? > If it really is a great idea, they’d all be

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Eric Zylstra
Maybe the OP could just go ahead and replace all the Perl code with Lua and then ask for feedback from the other devs? That is the OpenBSD way, right? If it really is a great idea, they’d all be really excited. In any case, it would kill this thread. EZ Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 31,

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Christer Solskogen
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 5:50 PM Marc Espie wrote: > We did retire vax, and we no longer have any platform without dynamic > libraries. > > OT but: out of sheer curiosity, why didn't VAX support dynamic libraries?

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Luke A. Call
On 12-31 14:02, Raul Miller wrote: > On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 1:32 PM wrote: > > I'm curious to know if there are any languages other than C and perl in > > use in OpenBSD base. > It's pretty easy to download the sources for base, and then: > tar zxf src.tar.gz > find . -type f -name '*.*' | sed

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Daniel Corbe
I like where this thread is headed. To expand on this idea, maybe we should demonstrate how diversity and inclusiveness can work in an operating system via language choices. Why stop at TCL and LUA? Or even scripting languages in general. Why not Go, Rust, Haskell and Scala too? Hear me out.

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Paul Wisehart
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 02:02:47PM -0500, Raul Miller wrote: > tar zxf src.tar.gz > find . -type f -name '*.*' | sed 's/^.*\.//' | sort | uniq -c | sort > -n | tail -40 That was fun, I learned about the -n option :) Thanks! wise@hup:/usr/src$ find . -type f -name '*.*' | sed 's/^.*\.//' | sort |

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Raul Miller
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 1:32 PM wrote: > I'm curious to know if there are any languages other than C and perl in > use in OpenBSD base. It's pretty easy to download the sources for base, and then: tar zxf src.tar.gz find . -type f -name '*.*' | sed 's/^.*\.//' | sort | uniq -c | sort -n | tail

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread danieljboyd
Certainly, there are situations where perl isn't the best choice. And in those unfortunate situations, other languages may be considered, however begrudgingly. :) I'm curious to know if there are any languages other than C and perl in use in OpenBSD base. On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 05:39:03PM

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Roderick
On Tue, 31 Dec 2019, Theo de Raadt wrote: > Roderick wrote: >> I am curious to know why tcl, my fovourite scripting lanuage, would >> not be a candidate. [...] > Wow, it's a lot like you can't read. It is more an academic question. I wanted to know more objective critera than personal

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Theo de Raadt
Raul Miller wrote: > On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 11:46 AM Roderick wrote: > > I am curious to know why tcl, my fovourite scripting lanuage, would > > not be a candidate. > > If OpenLuaBSD would be a welcome fork, I don't see why OpenTCLBSD > would be any worse. > > Doesn't mean anyone wants to

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Raul Miller
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 11:46 AM Roderick wrote: > I am curious to know why tcl, my fovourite scripting lanuage, would > not be a candidate. If OpenLuaBSD would be a welcome fork, I don't see why OpenTCLBSD would be any worse. Doesn't mean anyone wants to write it. -- Raul

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Theo de Raadt
Roderick wrote: > > > On Tue, 31 Dec 2019, Marc Espie wrote: > > > lua would definitely NOT be appropriate for that. The only half valid > > candidate would be python. > > I am curious to know why tcl, my fovourite scripting lanuage, would > not be a candidate. > > I suspect, tcl is being

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Marc Espie
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 10:45:34PM +1000, Stuart Longland wrote: > On 31/12/19 3:54 pm, Marc Espie wrote: > > Contrary to what some people might think, the tools in question won't be > > easier to understand and manage if written in another language. > > I'm of the opinion that "if it ain't

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Roderick
On Tue, 31 Dec 2019, Marc Espie wrote: > lua would definitely NOT be appropriate for that. The only half valid > candidate would be python. I am curious to know why tcl, my fovourite scripting lanuage, would not be a candidate. I suspect, tcl is being underestimated, and the decission for one

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Marc Espie
On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 06:57:02AM -0600, Daniel Boyd wrote: > As one of the few remaining people out there who considers perl to be their > favorite language—starting to wonder if it’s just me and Larry Wall at this > point—I’d like to say that perl should stay in base on its merits, all the >

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Christopher Turkel
Perl is my favorite language, too. Perl can be gnarly but I love it. I have zero experience with Lua so I can’t judge it but I’d like Perl to stay in Base. On Tuesday, December 31, 2019, Daniel Boyd wrote: > As one of the few remaining people out there who considers perl to be > their favorite

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Daniel Boyd
As one of the few remaining people out there who considers perl to be their favorite language—starting to wonder if it’s just me and Larry Wall at this point—I’d like to say that perl should stay in base on its merits, all the perl-based system tools notwithstanding. I decided learn perl

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-31 Thread Stuart Longland
On 31/12/19 3:54 pm, Marc Espie wrote: > Contrary to what some people might think, the tools in question won't be > easier to understand and manage if written in another language. I'm of the opinion that "if it ain't broken, don't fix it". What is "broken" about Perl that we're trying to fix

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-30 Thread Theo de Raadt
Marc Espie wrote: > Removing perl from base would be very painful. > > I don't fancy rewriting all the perl tools in something else (specifically, > most of the ports and package infrastructure) > > lua would definitely NOT be appropriate for that. The only half valid > candidate would be

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-30 Thread Marc Espie
Removing perl from base would be very painful. I don't fancy rewriting all the perl tools in something else (specifically, most of the ports and package infrastructure) lua would definitely NOT be appropriate for that. The only half valid candidate would be python. Contrary to what some people

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-30 Thread Roderick
On Mon, 30 Dec 2019, Theo de Raadt wrote: > wrote: > > > A smaller base afforded to by Lua will reduce the > > attack surface and complexity of the OpenBSD project as a whole. > > 1) I think that is a baseless and irrelevant claim. > > 2) No. It is not about the claim, he is trying to sell

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-30 Thread Xiyue Deng
writes: > Hi, > > I'd like to bring up the following suggestion: > > Would it be desirable for the OpenBSD project to replace Perl with Lua > in the base system? A smaller base afforded to by Lua will reduce the > attack surface and complexity of the OpenBSD project as a whole. > >   The source

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-30 Thread Edgar Pettijohn
On 2019-12-30 18:07, ansim...@tutanota.com wrote: Hi, I'd like to bring up the following suggestion: Would it be desirable for the OpenBSD project to replace Perl with Lua in the base system? A smaller base afforded to by Lua will reduce the attack surface and complexity of the OpenBSD

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-30 Thread ansimita
Hi Theo, Noted. Thanks for the consideration, ansimita Dec 31, 2019, 00:15 by dera...@openbsd.org: > wrote: > >> A smaller base afforded to by Lua will reduce the >> attack surface and complexity of the OpenBSD project as a whole. >> > > 1) I think that is a baseless and irrelevant claim. > >

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-30 Thread Theo de Raadt
wrote: > A smaller base afforded to by Lua will reduce the > attack surface and complexity of the OpenBSD project as a whole. 1) I think that is a baseless and irrelevant claim. 2) No.

Re: Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-30 Thread Martin Schröder
Am Di., 31. Dez. 2019 um 01:08 Uhr schrieb : > Would it be desirable for the OpenBSD project to replace Perl with Lua > in the base system? A smaller base afforded to by Lua will reduce the IMNSHO no. You are welcome to fork your OpenLuaBSD project, though. Looking forward to your first

Suggestion: Replace Perl with Lua in the OpenBSD Base System

2019-12-30 Thread ansimita
Hi, I'd like to bring up the following suggestion: Would it be desirable for the OpenBSD project to replace Perl with Lua in the base system? A smaller base afforded to by Lua will reduce the attack surface and complexity of the OpenBSD project as a whole.   The source contains around 24000