Re: Why are so many people running and writing about current snapshots

[Zeb Packard]

What's happening right now is OBSD-misc is doing in 6 months
what RH and MS do in ten years. Questions like this are
like hitting the stop button on a production line :D


Peter N.M. Hansteen is keen to answer questions like this.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/openbsd.newbies/

There's a regular "OpenBSD" group as well, but I wouldn't
mess with it if you can get Hansteen's attention. (you can)

If you don't like facebook there's the OBSD section on
daemonforums. As mentioned in Michael W. Lucas' book.
http://daemonforums.org/

Lucas doesn't answer questions per se, but if you follow
on fb you can get updates about the next book release.

It's funny, but OpenBSD has 5 star support on FB.

You're a smart kid zero, but this isn't a freshmen class.

Ask Hansteen

On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 11:49 PM, Z Ero  wrote:

> Is 6.3 release almost here? Is that why? If you are using your
> computer for production and are not actively developing / debugging
> OpenBSD why would you run a current snapshot rather than the stable
> release? Just curious.
>
>

Re: Why are so many people running and writing about current snapshots

[Patrick Harper]

Distros like RHEL have longer release cycles because the industry they service 
demands them. The fact that the kernel project maintains releases as far back 
as 2012 only re-enforces the business.

There's no need for 'puffangelism' on this subject as OBSD is by no means alone 
in six-month release cycles. Ubuntu is the obvious one.

-- 
  Patrick Harper
  paia...@fastmail.com

On Tue, 27 Mar 2018, at 07:09, Consus wrote:
> On 14:46 Tue 27 Mar, Niels Kobschaetzki wrote:
> > CentOS 5 is EOL since March 31st 2017 ;)
> > CentOS 6 should be on extended support now which is going EOL in
> > November 2020.
> 
> Yep. And Centos7 will be around until 2024. So 4/5 of Linux distros in
> production (e.g. Alpine is different in this regard) are affected by
> this awful megafreeze strategy when you're stuck with an old kernel and
> tools (not everything gets backported) for years.
> 
> That's why I love OpenBSD's 6 month release cycles so much :3
> 

Re: Why are so many people running and writing about current snapshots

[Consus]

On 14:46 Tue 27 Mar, Niels Kobschaetzki wrote:
> CentOS 5 is EOL since March 31st 2017 ;)
> CentOS 6 should be on extended support now which is going EOL in
> November 2020.

Yep. And Centos7 will be around until 2024. So 4/5 of Linux distros in
production (e.g. Alpine is different in this regard) are affected by
this awful megafreeze strategy when you're stuck with an old kernel and
tools (not everything gets backported) for years.

That's why I love OpenBSD's 6 month release cycles so much :3

Re: Why are so many people running and writing about current snapshots

[Niels Kobschaetzki]

On 03/27/2018 02:14 PM, Consus wrote:
> On 22:31 Mon 26 Mar, Z Ero wrote:
>> I just don't want OpenBSD to turn into Linux where the fixation is on
>> newest shiny thing rather than doing code right. Sometimes I think
>> people who are excessively interested in bleeding edge features more
>> want an OS for tinkering with than an OS for production / work. I want
>> something stable to use. But to each his own.
> 
> Err... how exactly megafreeze for several years is bleeding edge? I mean
> there still are CentOS 5 installations in production. And it was
> released in 2007.

CentOS 5 is EOL since March 31st 2017 ;)
CentOS 6 should be on extended support now which is going EOL in
November 2020.

Niels

Re: Why are so many people running and writing about current snapshots

[Consus]

On 22:31 Mon 26 Mar, Z Ero wrote:
> I just don't want OpenBSD to turn into Linux where the fixation is on
> newest shiny thing rather than doing code right. Sometimes I think
> people who are excessively interested in bleeding edge features more
> want an OS for tinkering with than an OS for production / work. I want
> something stable to use. But to each his own.

Err... how exactly megafreeze for several years is bleeding edge? I mean
there still are CentOS 5 installations in production. And it was
released in 2007.

Re: Why are so many people running and writing about current snapshots

[Stuart Henderson]

On 2018/03/26 22:31, Z Ero wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 3:49 AM, Stuart Henderson  
> wrote:
> > On 2018-03-25, Z Ero  wrote:
> >> Is 6.3 release almost here? Is that why? If you are using your
> >> computer for production and are not actively developing / debugging
> >> OpenBSD why would you run a current snapshot rather than the stable
> >> release? Just curious.
> >
> > - easy access to newer packages, at the cost of a bit more work updating.
> >
> > - maybe you want new features from -current, or bug fixes that haven't
> > been backported to -stable.
>
> I just don't want OpenBSD to turn into Linux where the fixation is on
> newest shiny thing rather than doing code right. Sometimes I think
> people who are excessively interested in bleeding edge features more
> want an OS for tinkering with than an OS for production / work. I want
> something stable to use. But to each his own.

I should have added another one:

- making sure things are in good shape for the next release.

Since OpenBSD has a single branch which is always expected to work,
running -current is nothing like running a development branch of some
other OS where new features are "matured" before bringing into mainline.

Re: Why are so many people running and writing about current snapshots

[Philip Guenther]

To answer your original question: yes, 6.3 is almost here.  We've been
running this schedule of twice a year releases for *decades*, so you as a
fan of stable OpenBSD releases should be familiar with the time frames by
now, no?

On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 8:31 PM, Z Ero  wrote:

> I just don't want OpenBSD to turn into Linux where the fixation is on
> newest shiny thing rather than doing code right.


*How* does that happen?  People test the builds _before_ release so that we
can iron out problems in the changes that happened over the previous six
months!  If no one tests, then it'll be a crap release and you'll be
wondering why the code wasn't done right.



> Sometimes I think
> people who are excessively interested in bleeding edge features more
> want an OS for tinkering with than an OS for production / work.


I want a box that lets me get stuff done too.  That's why when the Meltdown
issue hit the fan I tightened my belt and shoveled the shit to mitigate it
with mlar...@...and testing in snapshots was how we identified problems and
gained confidence it its stability.  Stability isn't something magical
gained just by sitting in the tree untested!  Things become stable when
people test them.  If the only people testing snapshots before release are
the developers, then the release will be stable on the developers' boxes
and not so stable on everyone else's.

I want something stable to use. But to each his own.
>

That's nice; I want my code to work on the first try.  Too bad both our
wishes require work.

If you're not testing snapshots then you're not contributing to that
stability.  Constraints in your life keep you from doing that?  Sure, fine,
but be aware that you're taking not giving, and instead of asking others
"why do you give?" you should ask yourself "how am I giving, here, in my
community, in my life, in the world?"


Philip Guenther

Re: Why are so many people running and writing about current snapshots

[Theo de Raadt]

Your specification and requirements are so clear.

But this isn't a pony shop.

Who cares what you want?  Really, noone.

> I just don't want OpenBSD to turn into Linux where the fixation is on
> newest shiny thing rather than doing code right. Sometimes I think
> people who are excessively interested in bleeding edge features more
> want an OS for tinkering with than an OS for production / work. I want
> something stable to use. But to each his own.
> 
> On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 3:49 AM, Stuart Henderson  
> wrote:
> > On 2018-03-25, Z Ero  wrote:
> >> Is 6.3 release almost here? Is that why? If you are using your
> >> computer for production and are not actively developing / debugging
> >> OpenBSD why would you run a current snapshot rather than the stable
> >> release? Just curious.
> >
> > - easy access to newer packages, at the cost of a bit more work updating.
> >
> > - maybe you want new features from -current, or bug fixes that haven't
> > been backported to -stable.
> >
> >
> >
> 

Re: Why are so many people running and writing about current snapshots

[Z Ero]

I just don't want OpenBSD to turn into Linux where the fixation is on
newest shiny thing rather than doing code right. Sometimes I think
people who are excessively interested in bleeding edge features more
want an OS for tinkering with than an OS for production / work. I want
something stable to use. But to each his own.

On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 3:49 AM, Stuart Henderson  wrote:
> On 2018-03-25, Z Ero  wrote:
>> Is 6.3 release almost here? Is that why? If you are using your
>> computer for production and are not actively developing / debugging
>> OpenBSD why would you run a current snapshot rather than the stable
>> release? Just curious.
>
> - easy access to newer packages, at the cost of a bit more work updating.
>
> - maybe you want new features from -current, or bug fixes that haven't
> been backported to -stable.
>
>
>

Re: Why are so many people running and writing about current snapshots

[Stuart Henderson]

On 2018-03-25, Z Ero  wrote:
> Is 6.3 release almost here? Is that why? If you are using your
> computer for production and are not actively developing / debugging
> OpenBSD why would you run a current snapshot rather than the stable
> release? Just curious.

- easy access to newer packages, at the cost of a bit more work updating.

- maybe you want new features from -current, or bug fixes that haven't
been backported to -stable.

Re: Why are so many people running and writing about current snapshots

[lists]

Sun, 25 Mar 2018 15:21:59 + Mike Burns 
> On 2018-03-25 01.49.52 -0500, Z Ero wrote:
> > Is 6.3 release almost here? Is that why? If you are using your
> > computer for production and are not actively developing / debugging
> > OpenBSD why would you run a current snapshot rather than the stable
> > release? Just curious.  
> 
> In additon to the good-willed reasons others have given: the most vocal
> people on the mailing lists are also people who are actively developing
> or debugging OpenBSD.
> 

Hi there,

Ports tree and respective packages are getting new versions in snapshots.
For some users running snapshots is the most logical choice to follow up.

https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq5.html#Flavors
https://www.openbsd.org/papers/asiabsdcon2009-release_engineering/
https://www.openbsd.org/papers/asiabsdcon2009-release_engineering/mgp00021.html

I personally am glad that many people are asking questions while testing.
Asking questions about asking questions is a question instead of answers.

Kind regards,
Anton Lazarov

Re: Why are so many people running and writing about current snapshots

[Mike Burns]

On 2018-03-25 01.49.52 -0500, Z Ero wrote:
> Is 6.3 release almost here? Is that why? If you are using your
> computer for production and are not actively developing / debugging
> OpenBSD why would you run a current snapshot rather than the stable
> release? Just curious.

In additon to the good-willed reasons others have given: the most vocal
people on the mailing lists are also people who are actively developing
or debugging OpenBSD.

Re: Why are so many people running and writing about current snapshots

[Ryan Mason]

On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 06:49:52AM +, Z Ero wrote:
> Is 6.3 release almost here? Is that why? If you are using your
> computer for production and are not actively developing / debugging
> OpenBSD why would you run a current snapshot rather than the stable
> release? Just curious.
>

To assist those who are developing/debugging OpenBSD by providing feedback on 
how the system/installed packages/etc run on a particular architecture and 
machine.

Re: Why are so many people running and writing about current snapshots

[Mark Carroll]

On 25 Mar 2018, Z. Ero wrote:

> Is 6.3 release almost here? Is that why? If you are using your
> computer for production and are not actively developing / debugging
> OpenBSD why would you run a current snapshot rather than the stable
> release? Just curious.

It's good to run a snapshot at least somewhere to help spot bugs and to
test fixes: then one can give the developers prompt feedback and save
them wondering if one's issue is still valid. Sometimes support gets
added, sometimes regressions get fixed: hence the many suggestions to
"try a current snapshot", often with reference to some commit in which a
problem was addressed. I'm sure it must help if new bug reports don't
all roll in at the last minute before a planned release.

Where the latest stable works fine for the production system, which it
typically does if one chooses the hardware with care, then yes I run the
stable version. I can still test on one of the similar systems I'd swap
in if production failed though.

-- Mark

Re: Why are so many people running and writing about current snapshots

[Philipp Buehler]

Am 25.03.2018 08:49 schrieb Z Ero:

Is 6.3 release almost here? Is that why? If you are using your
computer for production and are not actively developing / debugging
OpenBSD why would you run a current snapshot rather than the stable
release? Just curious.


Because with a "myriad" of snapshot testers the quality for the "only 
release"-users

would not be as good as it is.

--
pb

Why are so many people running and writing about current snapshots

[Z Ero]

Is 6.3 release almost here? Is that why? If you are using your
computer for production and are not actively developing / debugging
OpenBSD why would you run a current snapshot rather than the stable
release? Just curious.