Re: [Bulk] Re: a half-baked analysis of the verification chicken-and-egg problem, and request

2014-08-13 Thread Kevin Chadwick
previously on this list Theo de Raadt contributed: source tree, Whose fingerprints are available on the website, many of which for years and are probably in googles cache available over ssl and many other corners of the web. on twitter or google, or anywhere else you like. Ask questions if

Re: [Bulk] Re: a half-baked analysis of the verification chicken-and-egg problem, and request

2014-08-13 Thread Eric Furman
On Wed, Aug 13, 2014, at 04:47 AM, Kevin Chadwick wrote: It has occurred to me that you have been very good in terms of not tying the keys in any way to the buying of cds for each release/snapshot. I donate what I can rather than buy cd's as it is more efficient but I guess the money goes to a

Re: a half-baked analysis of the verification chicken-and-egg problem, and request

2014-08-13 Thread Carlin Bingham
On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, at 11:38 AM, Theo de Raadt wrote: One suggestion/request, to make it even harder for the man-in-the-middle attack to be successfully employed, could the current checksums be posted in the announcement of the new version? http://www.openbsd.org/55.html

Re: a half-baked analysis of the verification chicken-and-egg problem, and request

2014-08-13 Thread Carlin Bingham
On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, at 11:38 AM, Theo de Raadt wrote: One suggestion/request, to make it even harder for the man-in-the-middle attack to be successfully employed, could the current checksums be posted in the announcement of the new version? http://www.openbsd.org/55.html

Re: a half-baked analysis of the verification chicken-and-egg problem, and request

2014-08-13 Thread Giancarlo Razzolini
On 13-08-2014 09:04, Carlin Bingham wrote: Are there plans to get openbsd.org serving over SSL? That would help a bit in trusting the keys posted to the website. No, it wouldn't. If we go down that path, DNSSEC, with all it's problems is better than SSL for this. You can get free ssl

Re: a half-baked analysis of the verification chicken-and-egg problem, and request

2014-08-13 Thread Carlin Bingham
On Thu, 14 Aug 2014, at 12:38 AM, Giancarlo Razzolini wrote: On 13-08-2014 09:04, Carlin Bingham wrote: Are there plans to get openbsd.org serving over SSL? That would help a bit in trusting the keys posted to the website. No, it wouldn't. If we go down that path, DNSSEC, with all it's

Re: a half-baked analysis of the verification chicken-and-egg problem, and request

2014-08-13 Thread Giancarlo Razzolini
On 13-08-2014 09:54, Carlin Bingham wrote: Of course, but doing all that in addition to getting the keys over SSL is better than doing all that and not getting the keys over SSL. I did sent this same e-mail you sent almost a year ago. We have signify now. Things have changed. There is always,

Re: a half-baked analysis of the verification chicken-and-egg problem, and request

2014-08-13 Thread Alexander Hall
On August 13, 2014 2:04:14 PM CEST, Carlin Bingham c...@viennan.net wrote: On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, at 11:38 AM, Theo de Raadt wrote: One suggestion/request, to make it even harder for the man-in-the-middle attack to be successfully employed, could the current checksums be posted in the announcement

Re: [Bulk] Re: a half-baked analysis of the verification chicken-and-egg problem, and request

2014-08-13 Thread Kevin Chadwick
previously on this list Giancarlo Razzolini contributed: Are there plans to get openbsd.org serving over SSL? That would help a bit in trusting the keys posted to the website. No, it wouldn't. If we go down that path, DNSSEC, with all it's problems is better than SSL for this. You can

Re: a half-baked analysis of the verification chicken-and-egg problem, and request

2014-08-13 Thread Giancarlo Razzolini
On 13-08-2014 11:36, Alexander Hall wrote: How did you download your browser? Can you trust all certs it uses? Etc etc...:-p It can't. Just see the Turktrust/Google case. So many chickens and eggs here. Since we are at this, how can you trust your operating system? Your hardware? Everyone need

Re: [Bulk] Re: a half-baked analysis of the verification chicken-and-egg problem, and request

2014-08-13 Thread Giancarlo Razzolini
On 13-08-2014 10:55, Kevin Chadwick wrote: Perhaps we should ask debian or arch to ask gnupg.orgs keyserver to use a CA signed cert but of course they wouldn't and offer a self-signed I guess for political reasons or not to trip up those who don't understand the issues and perhaps that is true

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: a half-baked analysis of the verification chicken-and-egg problem, and request

2014-08-13 Thread Kevin Chadwick
On Wed, 13 Aug 2014 12:19:40 -0300 Giancarlo Razzolini wrote: Today there is never a need for self-signed certs. You can get them for free, there's no excuse. Tell that to gnupg.org, as I say political... but useful going forward but there are only a few keyservers. Also if you have a secure

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: a half-baked analysis of the verification chicken-and-egg problem, and request

2014-08-13 Thread Theo de Raadt
On Wed, 13 Aug 2014 12:19:40 -0300 Giancarlo Razzolini wrote: Today there is never a need for self-signed certs. You can get them for free, there's no excuse. Tell that to gnupg.org, as I say political... but useful going forward but there are only a few keyservers. Also if you have

Re: a half-baked analysis of the verification chicken-and-egg problem, and request

2014-08-13 Thread Lars
On 13.08.2014 17:11, Giancarlo Razzolini wrote: On 13-08-2014 11:36, Alexander Hall wrote: How did you download your browser? Can you trust all certs it uses? Etc etc...:-p It can't. Just see the Turktrust/Google case. So many chickens and eggs here. Since we are at this, how can you trust

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: a half-baked analysis of the verification chicken-and-egg problem, and request

2014-08-13 Thread Kevin Chadwick
On Wed, 13 Aug 2014 11:12:21 -0600 Theo de Raadt wrote: Also if you have a secure method to share the fingerprint then self-signed are more secure. Personally I would like someone, perhaps a major browser to create a service where we can login and submit our fingerprint and oh, I

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: a half-baked analysis of the verification chicken-and-egg problem, and request

2014-08-13 Thread Theo de Raadt
Also if you have a secure method to share the fingerprint then self-signed are more secure. Personally I would like someone, perhaps a major browser to create a service where we can login and submit our fingerprint and oh, I suppose because everything is much safer better when

Re: [Bulk] Re: a half-baked analysis of the verification chicken-and-egg problem, and request

2014-08-13 Thread Worik Stanton
On 13/08/14 22:13, Eric Furman wrote: [snip] The most absolutely best way any one can contribute to OBSD is to BUY CD'S. Buy some cd's and then buy some more. Buy them for the stickers. Buy them because they fund OBSD. Without cd sales OBSD would cease to exist. It is as simple as that. So,

Re: [Bulk] Re: a half-baked analysis of the verification chicken-and-egg problem, and request

2014-08-13 Thread Eric Furman
On Wed, Aug 13, 2014, at 05:36 PM, Worik Stanton wrote: On 13/08/14 22:13, Eric Furman wrote: [snip] The most absolutely best way any one can contribute to OBSD is to BUY CD'S. Buy some cd's and then buy some more. Buy them for the stickers. Buy them because they fund OBSD. Without cd

Re: [Bulk] Re: a half-baked analysis of the verification chicken-and-egg problem, and request

2014-08-13 Thread Carl Trachte
On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 3:52 PM, Eric Furman ericfur...@fastmail.net wrote: On Wed, Aug 13, 2014, at 05:36 PM, Worik Stanton wrote: On 13/08/14 22:13, Eric Furman wrote: [snip] The most absolutely best way any one can contribute to OBSD is to BUY CD'S. Buy some cd's and then buy some more.

a half-baked analysis of the verification chicken-and-egg problem, and request

2014-08-12 Thread Joel Rees
My understanding of the problem: (Bear with me. I'm trying not to ramble too much here.) For catching simple data errors in the download, there is no problem, of course. The attacker is random chance, so downloading the SHA256 file and comparing the checksums should be sufficient. The

Re: a half-baked analysis of the verification chicken-and-egg problem, and request

2014-08-12 Thread Theo de Raadt
Checksums? SHA256 files? There are no SHA256 files. Now there are SHA256.sig files. You are at least 6 months behind the times. http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi/OpenBSD-current/man1/signify.1?query=signifyarch=i386 See the EXAMPLES section. You can visually verify the (very short)

Re: a half-baked analysis of the verification chicken-and-egg problem, and request

2014-08-12 Thread Theo de Raadt
One suggestion/request, to make it even harder for the man-in-the-middle attack to be successfully employed, could the current checksums be posted in the announcement of the new version? http://www.openbsd.org/55.html signify(1) pubkeys for this release: base: