Re: FAQ gone?

2018-12-20 Thread Gilles Chehade
On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 10:13:11AM +0100, Aham Brahmasmi wrote:
> Hi Gilles,
> 

Hi,


> Thank you for your elaborate response.
> 
> > if someone steps up to do the work, I will happily welcome the FAQ again
> > but it needs to be someone who commits to that work, not someone that'll
> > write the pages dump them once and disappear.
> 
> From what I understand, the primary requirement for a -current FAQ is
> consistent maintenance of the FAQ. A secondary requirement is to
> constantly evaluate the need of / interaction with external software
> components viz. spamd, dkim-proxy, dovecot et al.
> 

You understood primary requirement well.

The secondary requirement isn't really to constantly evaluate all of the
external software OpenSMTPD can possibly interact with, but to make sure
that if the FAQ provides example of interaction with third-party project
then these examples are maintained up-to-date.

This isn't too hard really, we could setup a repository for the FAQ, the
maintainer would do most of the work to maintain it up to date, then the
community can push pull requests when there's need to fix it.

What I don't want is that someone dumps a first version then disappears,
and I get to keep updating the FAQ whenever I update a man page, I don't
want to do the same work twice.


> Currently I am not in a position to pick up the FAQ maintainership or
> contribute in a meaningful way. I am sorry for that.
> 

No worries, I can understand, I'm not in a position to do that myself.


> Having said that, just in case someone thinks they could take up the FAQ
> maintainership, would it be possible for you to please share the outline
> of the expectations from an FAQ maintainer?
> 

Sure.

0- come up with an initial version of the FAQ.

1- the FAQ _on the website_ should only document the last stable release

2- the FAQ _in development_ should document features being committed, in
   preparation for the next stable release

3- every six months, prior to the OpenSMTPD release, the development FAQ
   is evaluated to make sure it is accurate

4- in between, keep improving the FAQ with relevant information and make
   sure that issues reported by the community are fixed


That's about all, it's not tricky but it requires commitment.
It could be a joint effort between multiple people.

-- 
Gilles Chehade @poolpOrg

https://www.poolp.org tip me: https://paypal.me/poolpOrg

-- 
You received this mail because you are subscribed to misc@opensmtpd.org
To unsubscribe, send a mail to: misc+unsubscr...@opensmtpd.org



Re: FAQ gone?

2018-12-20 Thread Aham Brahmasmi
Hi Gilles,

Thank you for your elaborate response.

> if someone steps up to do the work, I will happily welcome the FAQ again
> but it needs to be someone who commits to that work, not someone that'll
> write the pages dump them once and disappear.

>From what I understand, the primary requirement for a -current FAQ is
consistent maintenance of the FAQ. A secondary requirement is to
constantly evaluate the need of / interaction with external software
components viz. spamd, dkim-proxy, dovecot et al.

Currently I am not in a position to pick up the FAQ maintainership or
contribute in a meaningful way. I am sorry for that.

Having said that, just in case someone thinks they could take up the FAQ
maintainership, would it be possible for you to please share the outline
of the expectations from an FAQ maintainer?

Dhanyavaad.

Regards,
ab
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|--

-- 
You received this mail because you are subscribed to misc@opensmtpd.org
To unsubscribe, send a mail to: misc+unsubscr...@opensmtpd.org



Re: FAQ gone?

2018-12-19 Thread Antonino Sidoti
HI,

I agree with a user base option as well. If people from this mailing list would 
be willing to volunteer their setup/configuration into a wiki then I think it 
would be good way to share the knowledge about OpenSMTPD. I struggled quite a 
bit getting the information to put together my setup and I ended up grabbing 
snippets of information from various sites along with a lot of reading too, 
i.e. ‘man’ pages. Though ‘man’ pages can be daunting at first and takes time 
getting your head around the many options, switches and order of syntax.

I built my lab a few times before I got it right. Having a central place for 
information and seeing examples I think will be very helpful.   

> On 13 Dec 2018, at 9:48 am, Edgar Pettijohn  wrote:
> 
> I feel the manual pages are really enough. However, somesort of wiki that
> the userbase could keep updated without intervention may work out.
> 
> Edgar
> 
> -- 
> You received this mail because you are subscribed to misc@opensmtpd.org
> To unsubscribe, send a mail to: misc+unsubscr...@opensmtpd.org
> 


--
You received this mail because you are subscribed to misc@opensmtpd.org
To unsubscribe, send a mail to: misc+unsubscr...@opensmtpd.org



Re: FAQ gone?

2018-12-19 Thread Gilles Chehade
On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 09:05:52AM +0100, Aham Brahmasmi wrote:
> Hi Gilles,
> 
> > On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 06:39:59PM +, mabi wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > I was wondering where did the FAQ section on the opensmtpd.org website 
> > > disappear?
> > > 
> > > It had useful setup examples with LMTP and Dovecot if I remember 
> > > correctly...
> > > 
> > 
> > The FAQ was inaccurate and no one step and committed to maintain it.
> > 
> > This resulted in people mailing me in private all the time to ask why an
> > example from the FAQ was not working for them.
> > 
> > Not opposed to having a FAQ but I can't be the one maintaining it and it
> > needs to be _actively_ maintained up-to-date, not just created once then
> > forgotten, otherwise this means additional work for me.
> 
> Would it be correct to say that the reason for the FAQ going out of
> sync with the code is the set of changes to the grammar?
> 

nope, the FAQ was removed before the grammar change.

grammar changes cause the FAQ to be out of sync but add-ons also cause
the FAQ to go out of sync, same for examples relying on other software
which may also have changes by themselves.

there was example of plugging with dkim-proxy, starting with 6.5 there
will be a better way to do it, if the FAQ isn't updated users will get
the old way of doing it. there was also an example of using a tool for
analyzing logs but log format changes, the example no longer works and
if FAQ is unmaintained, users get a broken setup.

an FAQ needs to be maintained, disregarding of how many changes happen
in smtpd, it is a living project by itself.


> If that is the case, I propose the following OpenSMTPD operating
> procedure:
> When the grammar changes start, hide the FAQ.
> Once the grammar changes are stabilized, update FAQ, unhide FAQ.
> 
> If I am not wrong, the new grammar is likely to persist for the
> foreseeable future. As such, once the new grammar stabilizes, the need
> for maintaining/rewriting the FAQ would be minimal.
> 
> To generalize even more:
> When wholesale breaking changes start, hide FAQ.
> When changes are stable, update FAQ, unhide FAQ.
> 
> An analogy would be svn lock and svn unlock once changes are committed.
> 

so who would do that ?
who would maintain the FAQ and take care of updating it ?


> This would balance the need to constantly update the FAQ with the
> usefulness of the FAQ in helping volks in getting started with
> OpenSMTPD.
> 

again, i'm not opposed to an FAQ, far from it.

i'm opposed to doing it myself because I don't have much spare time, and
i'd rather work on the code and man pages. i'm also opposed to having an
FAQ if we don't have an _active_ volunteer willing to maintain it, since
an inacurate FAQ lead users to ask me to troubleshoot their setup and it
distracts me from code.

if someone steps up to do the work, I will happily welcome the FAQ again
but it needs to be someone who commits to that work, not someone that'll
write the pages dump them once and disappear.


-- 
Gilles Chehade @poolpOrg

https://www.poolp.org tip me: https://paypal.me/poolpOrg

-- 
You received this mail because you are subscribed to misc@opensmtpd.org
To unsubscribe, send a mail to: misc+unsubscr...@opensmtpd.org



Re: FAQ gone?

2018-12-19 Thread Aham Brahmasmi
Hi Gilles,

> On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 06:39:59PM +, mabi wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I was wondering where did the FAQ section on the opensmtpd.org website 
> > disappear?
> > 
> > It had useful setup examples with LMTP and Dovecot if I remember 
> > correctly...
> > 
> 
> The FAQ was inaccurate and no one step and committed to maintain it.
> 
> This resulted in people mailing me in private all the time to ask why an
> example from the FAQ was not working for them.
> 
> Not opposed to having a FAQ but I can't be the one maintaining it and it
> needs to be _actively_ maintained up-to-date, not just created once then
> forgotten, otherwise this means additional work for me.

Would it be correct to say that the reason for the FAQ going out of
sync with the code is the set of changes to the grammar?

If that is the case, I propose the following OpenSMTPD operating
procedure:
When the grammar changes start, hide the FAQ.
Once the grammar changes are stabilized, update FAQ, unhide FAQ.

If I am not wrong, the new grammar is likely to persist for the
foreseeable future. As such, once the new grammar stabilizes, the need
for maintaining/rewriting the FAQ would be minimal.

To generalize even more:
When wholesale breaking changes start, hide FAQ.
When changes are stable, update FAQ, unhide FAQ.

An analogy would be svn lock and svn unlock once changes are committed.

This would balance the need to constantly update the FAQ with the
usefulness of the FAQ in helping volks in getting started with
OpenSMTPD.

Dhanyavaad.

Regards,
ab
-|-|-|-|-|-|-|--

-- 
You received this mail because you are subscribed to misc@opensmtpd.org
To unsubscribe, send a mail to: misc+unsubscr...@opensmtpd.org



Re: FAQ gone?

2018-12-12 Thread Chris Bennett
On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 10:35:21PM +0100, Gilles Chehade wrote:
> 
> The FAQ has been removed from the website twice for the same reason, and
> if you work on it but it then goes unmaintained and people start mailing
> me that I should fix the FAQ, I'll have to remove it again a third time.
> 
> I'm all for having an FAQ but it must come from people willing to become
> maintainers and not release a version of it and leave.

Yes, I was very disappointed when the previous FAQ didn't have accurate
information. I would much rather see you working on OpenSMTPD itself
rather than a FAQ, which is a lot of work just to make, much less
maintain.

I have found various FAQ's all over the place that just don't have
accurate information and throw in anti-spam programs I just don't want
to use. Of course, not enough information to understand how to skip one
of those unwanted ones. So I have essentially found all of them
basically useless, which is sad but true.

I'm in a bit of a conundrum. I'm trying to pull together a bunch of
things besides just email all at once.

I grabbed a baremetal at Vultr in addition to the one I am actually
using elsewhere. I'm trying to get everything running as I need it to at
Vultr before moving everything onto it officially. Having two baremetals
gives me a great way to bounce things back and forth until everything is
really truly working correctly.

But I have lots of questions about things I have never done before.
I'm very puzzled by how to correctly set up DKIM and DMARC.
Which programs should I be using and why? I looked at opendkim and the
manual pages are so long and convoluted with so many options that it
leaves me throwing up my hands in frustration. I know that once I
understand all of it, it will probably be completely clear, but not yet.
So which program(s) for DKIM to use? Is this something for example that
would be reasonable to add as a port like opensmtpd-dkim?

I'm perfectly happy to use postgresql with OpenSMTPD and Dovecot.
I have yet to find any example SQL tables anywhere for either.
This would work great for me to integrate certain customers with in a
larger database set up.

Maildir, mbox, dovecot's own mailboxes. I seem to find arguments for and
against each choice. Right now I can make a choice, but which one?

I also have found a probable need to use auth to allow only special
users to relay mail.

Right now, I have two servers. IP addresses which can get burned if I
screw up and two domains that can also get burned since I'm not using
them.
I'm 100% willing to run through all kinds of different configurations
and I have lot's of questions that would probably be great ones for a
FAQ. So I volunteer for guinea pig. I'll try it all for the FAQ.

BUT, if there is a FAQ, it's going to need to be set up with tests to
see when previous advice fails. Otherwise, I just don't see anyone even
knowing when and what to fix. "Oh, that didn't work. I'll do this other
way instead." isn't going to get anything maintained.

I'm happy (and needful) to try all the different ways. I can't commit to
writing the FAQ myself.

So, if I see this correctly, someone needs to grab two or three servers
every six months, run though all the options, see what fails and report
back, drop the servers?

I'll help,
Chris Bennett



-- 
You received this mail because you are subscribed to misc@opensmtpd.org
To unsubscribe, send a mail to: misc+unsubscr...@opensmtpd.org



Re: FAQ gone?

2018-12-12 Thread Edgar Pettijohn
I feel the manual pages are really enough. However, somesort of wiki that
the userbase could keep updated without intervention may work out.

Edgar

-- 
You received this mail because you are subscribed to misc@opensmtpd.org
To unsubscribe, send a mail to: misc+unsubscr...@opensmtpd.org



Re: FAQ gone?

2018-12-12 Thread Gilles Chehade
On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 03:56:35PM -0500, Matt Schwartz wrote:
> Gilles,
> 
> I've got some time on my hands for the next few weeks. I could work on it
> if you'd like.
> 

Again it's not a matter of working on it but commiting to maintain it on
the long run.

The FAQ has been removed from the website twice for the same reason, and
if you work on it but it then goes unmaintained and people start mailing
me that I should fix the FAQ, I'll have to remove it again a third time.

I'm all for having an FAQ but it must come from people willing to become
maintainers and not release a version of it and leave.


-- 
Gilles Chehade @poolpOrg

https://www.poolp.org tip me: https://paypal.me/poolpOrg

-- 
You received this mail because you are subscribed to misc@opensmtpd.org
To unsubscribe, send a mail to: misc+unsubscr...@opensmtpd.org



Re: FAQ gone?

2018-12-12 Thread Ian Darwin
On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 03:56:35PM -0500, Matt Schwartz wrote:
>Gilles,
>I've got some time on my hands for the next few weeks. I could work on
>it if you'd like.

As Gilles mentioned, it's not a matter of the next few weeks, but needs to be
a committment to maintain it actively for an extended period (off-hand I'd say
you should be willing to commit for at least a year(?) to maintain the thing
and keep it in sync with the constantly-eveolving grammar, updating examples,
etc).  Not trying to discourage you, but trying to prevent discouragement down
the road as the inevitable battle fatigues sets in.

-- 
You received this mail because you are subscribed to misc@opensmtpd.org
To unsubscribe, send a mail to: misc+unsubscr...@opensmtpd.org



Re: FAQ gone?

2018-12-12 Thread Matt Schwartz
Gilles,

I've got some time on my hands for the next few weeks. I could work on it
if you'd like.

Matt

On Wed, Dec 12, 2018, 3:44 PM Gilles Chehade  On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 06:39:59PM +, mabi wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I was wondering where did the FAQ section on the opensmtpd.org website
> disappear?
> >
> > It had useful setup examples with LMTP and Dovecot if I remember
> correctly...
> >
>
> The FAQ was inaccurate and no one step and committed to maintain it.
>
> This resulted in people mailing me in private all the time to ask why an
> example from the FAQ was not working for them.
>
> Not opposed to having a FAQ but I can't be the one maintaining it and it
> needs to be _actively_ maintained up-to-date, not just created once then
> forgotten, otherwise this means additional work for me.
>
> --
> Gilles Chehade @poolpOrg
>
> https://www.poolp.org tip me: https://paypal.me/poolpOrg
>
> --
> You received this mail because you are subscribed to misc@opensmtpd.org
> To unsubscribe, send a mail to: misc+unsubscr...@opensmtpd.org
>
>


Re: FAQ gone?

2018-12-12 Thread Gilles Chehade
On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 01:42:16PM -0500, Matt Schwartz wrote:
> I think the FAQ section is probably in the process of being reworked
> due to the recent grammar and functionality changes in OpenSMTPD 6.4.

I'm not sure where you got that from, I'm not aware of anyone working on
a rework of the FAQ as far as I know.

-- 
Gilles Chehade @poolpOrg

https://www.poolp.org tip me: https://paypal.me/poolpOrg

-- 
You received this mail because you are subscribed to misc@opensmtpd.org
To unsubscribe, send a mail to: misc+unsubscr...@opensmtpd.org



Re: FAQ gone?

2018-12-12 Thread Gilles Chehade
On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 06:39:59PM +, mabi wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I was wondering where did the FAQ section on the opensmtpd.org website 
> disappear?
> 
> It had useful setup examples with LMTP and Dovecot if I remember correctly...
> 

The FAQ was inaccurate and no one step and committed to maintain it.

This resulted in people mailing me in private all the time to ask why an
example from the FAQ was not working for them.

Not opposed to having a FAQ but I can't be the one maintaining it and it
needs to be _actively_ maintained up-to-date, not just created once then
forgotten, otherwise this means additional work for me.

-- 
Gilles Chehade @poolpOrg

https://www.poolp.org tip me: https://paypal.me/poolpOrg

-- 
You received this mail because you are subscribed to misc@opensmtpd.org
To unsubscribe, send a mail to: misc+unsubscr...@opensmtpd.org



Re: FAQ gone?

2018-12-12 Thread mabi
I see, that makes sense...


‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 7:42 PM, Matt Schwartz 
 wrote:

> I think the FAQ section is probably in the process of being reworked
> due to the recent grammar and functionality changes in OpenSMTPD 6.4.
> On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 1:40 PM mabi m...@protonmail.ch wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > I was wondering where did the FAQ section on the opensmtpd.org website 
> > disappear?
> > It had useful setup examples with LMTP and Dovecot if I remember 
> > correctly...
> > Regards,
> > Mabi
> > --
> > You received this mail because you are subscribed to misc@opensmtpd.org
> > To unsubscribe, send a mail to: misc+unsubscr...@opensmtpd.org
>
> --
>
> You received this mail because you are subscribed to misc@opensmtpd.org
> To unsubscribe, send a mail to: misc+unsubscr...@opensmtpd.org



--
You received this mail because you are subscribed to misc@opensmtpd.org
To unsubscribe, send a mail to: misc+unsubscr...@opensmtpd.org



FAQ gone?

2018-12-12 Thread mabi
Hi,

I was wondering where did the FAQ section on the opensmtpd.org website 
disappear?

It had useful setup examples with LMTP and Dovecot if I remember correctly...

Regards,
Mabi

--
You received this mail because you are subscribed to misc@opensmtpd.org
To unsubscribe, send a mail to: misc+unsubscr...@opensmtpd.org