Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-08-30 Thread Lailo
Zeb Packard zeb.packard at gmail.com writes:
 
 One thing I noticed is
 that they're having a hell of a time transitioning away from the
 traditional sysvinit-based system to the Upstart event-based init
 daemon system.
 


Hi Zeb,

I still don't get the online start, could you talk me through it?



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-16 Thread Nico Kadel-Garcia
On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 8:16 PM, J Sisson sisso...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 6:58 PM, Juan Miscaro jmisc...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 7 July 2011 15:06, jirib ji...@devio.us wrote:

 Are you kidding? Ubuntu? Where installed daemons are running by default,
  where there is no command to disable shitty upstart daemons?

 Which daemons are those again?

 apt-get install some_insecure_daemon

 Oh look, some_unsecure_daemon is running before I have a chance to
 configure it and lock it down the way I see fit.  sarcasmGood thing we
all
 know those Ubuntu/Debian guys are so damned smart and all.../sarcasm

Far too many daemons are installed by default on Ubuntu. It's a give
people everything they might desire some day approach, rather than a
keep it stable by giving them only what they need and ask for.

This is particularly evidenced by plethora of 3rd party repositories
with fascinating components that are easily merged into Ubuntu, and
require more manual integration and local compilation with OpenBSD.
And the reliance on older, stable, well-debugged components makes
leading edge development of Java and web apps more awkard in OpenBSD.

But OpenBSD is vastly more secure and avoids craziness such as
NetworkManager and 3 million useless and poorly implemented web
proxies and chat servers.



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-13 Thread Tristan Le Guern
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Juan Miscaro jmisc...@gmail.com wrote:
 Was wondering what advantages OpenBSD has over a progressive Linux
 distribution such as Ubuntu (Server edition).  One thing I noticed is
 that they're having a hell of a time transitioning away from the
 traditional sysvinit-based system to the Upstart event-based init
 daemon system.

Advantages ? You don't fear to upgrade OpenBSD.

--
Tristan Le Guern
Epitech 2013



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-12 Thread Kevin Chadwick
On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 21:13:10 -0700
patrick keshishian wrote:

  added daemons have different connotations from those included in obsd
  base, and this also applies to debian and derivatives. the closest
  parallel would be packages built from ports and the automation pkg_add
  performs on installing them  
 
 you failed at making any point.

I think the point was that things like avahi and cups do have exploits
regularly and may not be required at all on certain systems and even
manually using init.d stop and update-rc.d and chkconfig etc. etc. does
not often work so every so often you have to find the new place to edit
a script and prevent those things from running, I assume they assume why
would anyone stop those, with this breaking install scripts, it is
amateurish, brutish and flagrantly ignorant. 

Another annoyance is the assumption of why would anyone not want to
run a kde desktop without mysqld and especially apt-get remove
'plate from dishwasher' ... to do this you must remove the kitchen sink.

And now I've got e-coli.


I've also heard complaints, but this depends on your setup that some
don't have enough bandwidth to keep their Linux box secure, so
preventing removal of these things is plainly wrong.



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-12 Thread Kevin Chadwick
On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 09:02:08 -0400
Juan Miscaro wrote:

 Was wondering what advantages OpenBSD has over a progressive Linux
 distribution such as Ubuntu (Server edition).  One thing I noticed is
 that they're having a hell of a time transitioning away from the
 traditional sysvinit-based system to the Upstart event-based init
 daemon system.

You can also disable the X-aperture not only making your server more
secure but also preventing stupid things like running KDE and god
forbid, firefox on your server.

I was truly shocked when I asked my cousin something inside his cage
and he opened up Internet Exploiter on his exchange server to look it
up. With the recent addition of HW acceleration and webgl, this is even
more important.



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-12 Thread Mehma Sarja

On 7/11/11 10:48 PM, Andres Perera wrote:

On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 11:43 PM, patrick keshishianpkesh...@gmail.com  wrote:

you failed at making any point.

i'll rebrand it into convenient twitter format:

debian splits packages to the point where a single service is a
associated to a single top level package, meaning that there's never a
reason for unused installed services

openbsd limitations do not apply 1:1 to other systems unless they
happen to be openbsd. in the previous sentence, openbsd can be
replaced by any word

OK, I got the first paragraph but not the second. Could you please 
rebrand it so people like me can unnerstand? I just got off the boat. 
To be clear, which is my thing today, here is how I read the openbsd 
limitations... sentence: OpenBSD limitations apply only to OpenBSD. As 
my 4-year old would say, Hello... Your last sentence is equally 
baffling. I understand you may be mad at some responders, but the lack 
of clarity makes us haze over your argument and take the topic off on a 
tangent that you do not like. And that makes you mad, it is a Type A 
thing - we understand.


Simple, clear sentences sting the most.

Mehma



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-12 Thread Eric Furman
Please don't. This whole thread has gotten really stupid.
Unless you have something funny to add, let's kill it now.

On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:11 -0700, Mehma Sarja mehmasa...@gmail.com
wrote:
 On 7/11/11 10:48 PM, Andres Perera wrote:
  On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 11:43 PM, patrick keshishianpkesh...@gmail.com  
  wrote:
  you failed at making any point.
  i'll rebrand it into convenient twitter format:
 
  debian splits packages to the point where a single service is a
  associated to a single top level package, meaning that there's never a
  reason for unused installed services
 
  openbsd limitations do not apply 1:1 to other systems unless they
  happen to be openbsd. in the previous sentence, openbsd can be
  replaced by any word
 
 OK, I got the first paragraph but not the second. Could you please 
 rebrand it so people like me can unnerstand? I just got off the boat. 
 To be clear, which is my thing today, here is how I read the openbsd 
 limitations... sentence: OpenBSD limitations apply only to OpenBSD. As 
 my 4-year old would say, Hello... Your last sentence is equally 
 baffling. I understand you may be mad at some responders, but the lack 
 of clarity makes us haze over your argument and take the topic off on a 
 tangent that you do not like. And that makes you mad, it is a Type A 
 thing - we understand.
 
 Simple, clear sentences sting the most.
 
 Mehma



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-12 Thread Zeb Packard
Help, i shot it three times and I'm on my fourth monitor, 3 bullets
left. What next?

On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 2:21 PM, Eric Furman ericfur...@fastmail.net wrote:
 Please don't. This whole thread has gotten really stupid.
 Unless you have something funny to add, let's kill it now.

 On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:11 -0700, Mehma Sarja mehmasa...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 On 7/11/11 10:48 PM, Andres Perera wrote:
  On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 11:43 PM, patrick keshishianpkesh...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  you failed at making any point.
  i'll rebrand it into convenient twitter format:
 
  debian splits packages to the point where a single service is a
  associated to a single top level package, meaning that there's never a
  reason for unused installed services
 
  openbsd limitations do not apply 1:1 to other systems unless they
  happen to be openbsd. in the previous sentence, openbsd can be
  replaced by any word
 
 OK, I got the first paragraph but not the second. Could you please
 rebrand it so people like me can unnerstand? I just got off the boat.
 To be clear, which is my thing today, here is how I read the openbsd
 limitations... sentence: OpenBSD limitations apply only to OpenBSD. As
 my 4-year old would say, Hello... Your last sentence is equally
 baffling. I understand you may be mad at some responders, but the lack
 of clarity makes us haze over your argument and take the topic off on a
 tangent that you do not like. And that makes you mad, it is a Type A
 thing - we understand.

 Simple, clear sentences sting the most.

 Mehma



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-12 Thread Marco Peereboom
shoot it again son.

On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 03:59:31PM -0700, Zeb Packard wrote:
 Help, i shot it three times and I'm on my fourth monitor, 3 bullets
 left. What next?
 
 On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 2:21 PM, Eric Furman ericfur...@fastmail.net wrote:
  Please don't. This whole thread has gotten really stupid.
  Unless you have something funny to add, let's kill it now.
 
  On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:11 -0700, Mehma Sarja mehmasa...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  On 7/11/11 10:48 PM, Andres Perera wrote:
   On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 11:43 PM, patrick keshishianpkesh...@gmail.com
  wrote:
   you failed at making any point.
   i'll rebrand it into convenient twitter format:
  
   debian splits packages to the point where a single service is a
   associated to a single top level package, meaning that there's never a
   reason for unused installed services
  
   openbsd limitations do not apply 1:1 to other systems unless they
   happen to be openbsd. in the previous sentence, openbsd can be
   replaced by any word
  
  OK, I got the first paragraph but not the second. Could you please
  rebrand it so people like me can unnerstand? I just got off the boat.
  To be clear, which is my thing today, here is how I read the openbsd
  limitations... sentence: OpenBSD limitations apply only to OpenBSD. As
  my 4-year old would say, Hello... Your last sentence is equally
  baffling. I understand you may be mad at some responders, but the lack
  of clarity makes us haze over your argument and take the topic off on a
  tangent that you do not like. And that makes you mad, it is a Type A
  thing - we understand.
 
  Simple, clear sentences sting the most.
 
  Mehma



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-12 Thread Zeb Packard
I think it worked.

Sent from my iclone.

On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 4:23 PM, Marco Peereboom sl...@peereboom.us wrote:
 shoot it again son.

 On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 03:59:31PM -0700, Zeb Packard wrote:
 Help, i shot it three times and I'm on my fourth monitor, 3 bullets
 left. What next?

 On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 2:21 PM, Eric Furman ericfur...@fastmail.net
wrote:
  Please don't. This whole thread has gotten really stupid.
  Unless you have something funny to add, let's kill it now.
 
  On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:11 -0700, Mehma Sarja mehmasa...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  On 7/11/11 10:48 PM, Andres Perera wrote:
   On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 11:43 PM, patrick
keshishianpkesh...@gmail.com
  wrote:
   you failed at making any point.
   i'll rebrand it into convenient twitter format:
  
   debian splits packages to the point where a single service is a
   associated to a single top level package, meaning that there's never
a
   reason for unused installed services
  
   openbsd limitations do not apply 1:1 to other systems unless they
   happen to be openbsd. in the previous sentence, openbsd can be
   replaced by any word
  
  OK, I got the first paragraph but not the second. Could you please
  rebrand it so people like me can unnerstand? I just got off the boat.
  To be clear, which is my thing today, here is how I read the openbsd
  limitations... sentence: OpenBSD limitations apply only to OpenBSD. As
  my 4-year old would say, Hello... Your last sentence is equally
  baffling. I understand you may be mad at some responders, but the lack
  of clarity makes us haze over your argument and take the topic off on a
  tangent that you do not like. And that makes you mad, it is a Type A
  thing - we understand.
 
  Simple, clear sentences sting the most.
 
  Mehma



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-12 Thread Paul Suh
brraaiiinsss. B-)


On Jul 12, 2011, at 7:25 PM, Zeb Packard wrote:

 I think it worked.

 Sent from my iclone.

 On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 4:23 PM, Marco Peereboom sl...@peereboom.us
wrote:
 shoot it again son.

 On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 03:59:31PM -0700, Zeb Packard wrote:
 Help, i shot it three times and I'm on my fourth monitor, 3 bullets
 left. What next?

 On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 2:21 PM, Eric Furman ericfur...@fastmail.net
 wrote:
 Please don't. This whole thread has gotten really stupid.
 Unless you have something funny to add, let's kill it now.

 On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:11 -0700, Mehma Sarja mehmasa...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 On 7/11/11 10:48 PM, Andres Perera wrote:
 On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 11:43 PM, patrick
 keshishianpkesh...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 you failed at making any point.
 i'll rebrand it into convenient twitter format:

 debian splits packages to the point where a single service is a
 associated to a single top level package, meaning that there's never
 a
 reason for unused installed services

 openbsd limitations do not apply 1:1 to other systems unless they
 happen to be openbsd. in the previous sentence, openbsd can be
 replaced by any word

 OK, I got the first paragraph but not the second. Could you please
 rebrand it so people like me can unnerstand? I just got off the boat.
 To be clear, which is my thing today, here is how I read the openbsd
 limitations... sentence: OpenBSD limitations apply only to OpenBSD. As
 my 4-year old would say, Hello... Your last sentence is equally
 baffling. I understand you may be mad at some responders, but the lack
 of clarity makes us haze over your argument and take the topic off on a
 tangent that you do not like. And that makes you mad, it is a Type A
 thing - we understand.

 Simple, clear sentences sting the most.

 Mehma

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pkcs7-signature which 
had a name of smime.p7s]



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-11 Thread Juan Miscaro
On 7 July 2011 15:06, jirib ji...@devio.us wrote:
 On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 09:02:08 -0400
 Juan Miscaro jmisc...@gmail.com wrote:

 Was wondering what advantages OpenBSD has over a progressive Linux
 distribution such as Ubuntu (Server edition).

 Are you kidding? Ubuntu? Where installed daemons are running by default,
 where there is no command to disable shitty upstart daemons?

Which daemons are those again?

-- 
/jm



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-11 Thread J Sisson
On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 6:58 PM, Juan Miscaro jmisc...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 7 July 2011 15:06, jirib ji...@devio.us wrote:

 Are you kidding? Ubuntu? Where installed daemons are running by default,
  where there is no command to disable shitty upstart daemons?

 Which daemons are those again?

 apt-get install some_insecure_daemon

Oh look, some_unsecure_daemon is running before I have a chance to
configure it and lock it down the way I see fit.  sarcasmGood thing we all
know those Ubuntu/Debian guys are so damned smart and all.../sarcasm



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-11 Thread Andres Perera
On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 7:46 PM, J Sisson sisso...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 6:58 PM, Juan Miscaro jmisc...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 7 July 2011 15:06, jirib ji...@devio.us wrote:

 Are you kidding? Ubuntu? Where installed daemons are running by default,
  where there is no command to disable shitty upstart daemons?

 Which daemons are those again?

 apt-get install some_insecure_daemon

 Oh look, some_unsecure_daemon is running before I have a chance to
 configure it and lock it down the way I see fit. B sarcasmGood thing we
all
 know those Ubuntu/Debian guys are so damned smart and all.../sarcasm


why would you install a daemon and not run it? how is it any different
than X listening on localhost by default in obsd? if you install a
daemon in debian/ubuntu and it listens on 0.0.0.0 by default, the
package isn't following distro policy



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-11 Thread J Sisson
On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 7:36 PM, Andres Perera andre...@zoho.com wrote:

 why would you install a daemon and not run it? how is it any different
 than X listening on localhost by default in obsd? if you install a
 daemon in debian/ubuntu and it listens on 0.0.0.0 by default, the
 package isn't following distro policy


Why would you start a daemon before you have had a chance to
configure it for your environment?  Is it really that hard to run
update-rc.d after you edit a config file?

OpenBSD asks if X should run by default when you install the system.
On top of that, the default firewall rules explicitly block traffic to X.
It's quite different in fact.

Policy?  Well thank heavens for that...I guess I should run Ubuntu on
all of my critical infrastructure...their policy will protect me.



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-11 Thread Andres Perera
On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 8:48 PM, J Sisson sisso...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 7:36 PM, Andres Perera andre...@zoho.com wrote:

 why would you install a daemon and not run it? how is it any different
 than X listening on localhost by default in obsd? if you install a
 daemon in debian/ubuntu and it listens on 0.0.0.0 by default, the
 package isn't following distro policy

 Why would you start a daemon before you have had a chance to
 configure it for your environment?B  Is it really that hard to run
 update-rc.d after you edit a config file?

that wouldn't be any different than sending a HUP signal or restarting
through rc.d, assuming listening on localhost is ok. for exceptional
situations where it would be not ok, like increasingly rare truly
multi-user systems, you can turn it off globally for newly installed
packages


 OpenBSD asks if X should run by default when you install the system.
 On top of that, the default firewall rules explicitly block traffic to X.
 It's quite different in fact.

it does not offer granularity covering both running X and X
accepting connections from localhost, just like the debian package
policy concerning network daemons


 Policy?B  Well thank heavens for that...I guess I should run Ubuntu on
 all of my critical infrastructure...their policy will protect me.



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-11 Thread patrick keshishian
On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 5:36 PM, Andres Perera andre...@zoho.com wrote:
 On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 7:46 PM, J Sisson sisso...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 6:58 PM, Juan Miscaro jmisc...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 7 July 2011 15:06, jirib ji...@devio.us wrote:

 Are you kidding? Ubuntu? Where installed daemons are running by default,
  where there is no command to disable shitty upstart daemons?

 Which daemons are those again?

 apt-get install some_insecure_daemon

 Oh look, some_unsecure_daemon is running before I have a chance to
 configure it and lock it down the way I see fit. B sarcasmGood thing we
 all
 know those Ubuntu/Debian guys are so damned smart and all.../sarcasm


 why would you install a daemon and not run it? how is it any different
 than X listening on localhost by default in obsd?

Just because you install something doesn't mean you want it run by default.

fingerd, ftpd, rshd, popa3d, tftpd, ntalkd, ntpd, bind, lpd, sshd,
etc. are installed on OpenBSD, but not necessarily enabled by default.

When software thinks too much for the operator is when trouble begins.

--patrick



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-11 Thread Andres Perera
On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 9:40 PM, patrick keshishian pkesh...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 5:36 PM, Andres Perera andre...@zoho.com

 why would you install a daemon and not run it? how is it any different
 than X listening on localhost by default in obsd?

 Just because you install something doesn't mean you want it run by default.

 fingerd, ftpd, rshd, popa3d, tftpd, ntalkd, ntpd, bind, lpd, sshd,
 etc. are installed on OpenBSD, but not necessarily enabled by default.

one trait that all of these programs have in common is their inclusion
in base, which is meant to be a general purpose system. that's a whole
other story from debian and ubuntu. both of these linux distributions
have tags such as essential or required reserved for crucial
packages; anything else is optional. the packages that brandish the
required tag differ significantly from obsd's criteria. suffice to
say, httpd does not qualify as indispensable in debian world

added daemons have different connotations from those included in obsd
base, and this also applies to debian and derivatives. the closest
parallel would be packages built from ports and the automation pkg_add
performs on installing them


 When software thinks too much for the operator is when trouble begins.

 --patrick



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-11 Thread patrick keshishian
On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 8:03 PM, Andres Perera andre...@zoho.com wrote:
 On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 9:40 PM, patrick keshishian pkesh...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 5:36 PM, Andres Perera andre...@zoho.com

 why would you install a daemon and not run it? how is it any different
 than X listening on localhost by default in obsd?

 Just because you install something doesn't mean you want it run by default.

 fingerd, ftpd, rshd, popa3d, tftpd, ntalkd, ntpd, bind, lpd, sshd,
 etc. are installed on OpenBSD, but not necessarily enabled by default.

 one trait that all of these programs have in common is their inclusion
 in base, which is meant to be a general purpose system. that's a whole
 other story from debian and ubuntu. both of these linux distributions
 have tags such as essential or required reserved for crucial
 packages; anything else is optional. the packages that brandish the
 required tag differ significantly from obsd's criteria. suffice to
 say, httpd does not qualify as indispensable in debian world

 added daemons have different connotations from those included in obsd
 base, and this also applies to debian and derivatives. the closest
 parallel would be packages built from ports and the automation pkg_add
 performs on installing them

you failed at making any point.

--patrick




 When software thinks too much for the operator is when trouble begins.

 --patrick



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-11 Thread Andres Perera
On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 11:43 PM, patrick keshishian pkesh...@gmail.com wrote:

 you failed at making any point.

i'll rebrand it into convenient twitter format:

debian splits packages to the point where a single service is a
associated to a single top level package, meaning that there's never a
reason for unused installed services

openbsd limitations do not apply 1:1 to other systems unless they
happen to be openbsd. in the previous sentence, openbsd can be
replaced by any word



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-10 Thread Chris Cappuccio
STeve Andre' [and...@msu.edu] wrote:
 On 07/07/11 15:12, Amit Kulkarni wrote:
 The developers don't adopt new things just because they're new.
 If something isn't reasonable, useful and secure it isn't used.  This
 is one reason why each new release of OpenBSD doesn't have the
 currently released version of gcc, for example.
 Wrong. It is because of GPL v3. Gcc in base won't be updated AFAIK.
 No, this has always been the case.  I remember back around 2.5 or
 so, seeing that OpenBSD hadn't upgraded to the latest gcc, wondering
 why.
 
 The GPL 3 issue of today is relevant, but it extends beyond that.
 

For GCC after 4.2.1, the license is the problem.  That is why OpenBSD has 
4.2.1+fixes instead of something newer import of gcc-4.2.1, the last gcc 
release under GPLv2.  Same thing is happening right now with binutils 2.17.

When OpenBSD went to 2.95.3, to 3.3.5, and again to 4.2.1, the problem each 
time was the amount of effort required to make it work.  When the behavior in 
GCC changes, or when you run into new compiler bugs, it's a time-consuming 
problem that disrupt work going on in the system.

With the 4.2.1 upgrade, problems with GCC store re-ordering optimization 
extended into 4.8 release, affecting critical areas like bus_dmamap_sync().  Of 
course the bulk of the compiler upgrade problems were solved before 4.8.  
(Solved because people took time to track down, identify and fix those 
problems.)

It's a pain in the ass to swich compilers.  It ends up forcing people to 
troubleshoot code that isn't broken, slowing down other work until the actual 
compiler problem is identified and workaround applied.

OpenBSD historically didn't upgrade compilers until the pain of sticking with 
the existing compiler met or exceeded the pain of upgrading the compiler.

There were plenty of reasons to look at GCC 4 in base for several years now, 
but the increase in compile time (each generation of GCC is slower than the 
last) made a switch to GCC 4 less attractive.  No consensus to move to GCC 4 
was possible.

What finally pushed GCC 3.3.5 over the edge was the broken C++ compiler (also 
not ABI compatible with G++ 4, so everything that linked to a G++ 4 program had 
to also be compiled with G++ 4.  But people want their complex C++ ports to 
work)

Four or five years from now when GCC 4.2.1+fixes becomes too painful, OpenBSD 
may adopt something new, who knows, maybe llvm or pcc will support more 
architectures by then? Maybe the GPL 3 will become OK? GCC 4.2.1 is working 
pretty damn well now.



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-09 Thread Nico Kadel-Garcia
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 1:45 PM, Alexander Schrijver
alexander.schrij...@gmail.com wrote:
 For starters, there is 100% consensus among developers that we'll never
 use newfangled overengineered stuff like System V init.


 You mean Upstart!

 or wait

 You mean systemd!

Or the oddness that is daemontools!!



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-09 Thread Paul Suh
On Jul 9, 2011, at 11:34 AM, Nico Kadel-Garcia wrote:

 On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 1:45 PM, Alexander Schrijver
 alexander.schrij...@gmail.com wrote:
 For starters, there is 100% consensus among developers that we'll never
 use newfangled overengineered stuff like System V init.
 
 
 You mean Upstart!
 
 or wait
 
 You mean systemd!
 
 Or the oddness that is daemontools!!
 

Hey, wait for me -- launchd from the Mac! :-)

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pkcs7-signature which 
had a name of smime.p7s]



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-08 Thread Mihai Popescu
It doesn't.

Just install whatever you think it will serve you and see for
yourself. Even if you use state of the art operating system, you
will be annoyed if it doesn't serve you the way you like it. Go and
install, [dist]linux, openbsd, freebsd, etc., follow the path of
installing and configure each of them for a while and see how
satisfied you will be after each session. After all this, you will
stay with one of them, beginning to like it. Then you will learn it
more and more, discover it and like it again. Do not let others choose
for you. In the meantime, you will see that you are +10 years older
and the all mumbo-jumbo thing like what OS are you running is
pointless.

Good luck!



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-07 Thread Carson Chittom
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 8:02 AM, Juan Miscaro jmisc...@gmail.com wrote:

 Was wondering what advantages OpenBSD has over a progressive Linux
 distribution such as Ubuntu (Server edition).  One thing I noticed is
 that they're having a hell of a time transitioning away from the
 traditional sysvinit-based system to the Upstart event-based init
 daemon system.

With such a broad, flamebaity question, you're bound to get
some--interesting responses.  But here's my take:

Mostly I'd say that the advantage OpenBSD has over Ubuntu--or any
Linux, actually--is that in my (admittedly limited) experience, stuff
in OpenBSD doesn't get shipped until it *works*, and they don't throw
the baby out with the bathwater just for the heck of it, or because
they get bored.  How many audio thingamabobs does Linux have now?  And
that, in my view, seems to be indicative of the whole Linux
philosophy.  Especially with a server, what you're after is
*stability* not extraneous bells and whistles.

Also, the OpenBSD documentation is *excellent*--if you don't know how
to do something, you can find out.  There's at least one Linux
distribution (Crux) which at least used to actively remove
documentation from its packages.  The last time I used Ubuntu it
wasn't much better--online user forums can be helpful, but they are
not, and cannot be, a substitute for having good documentation in the
first place.

Pretty much all that is good in OpenBSD flows from those two things, I think.



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-07 Thread Francois Pussault
Hello all,

For I, differences are simple :
OpenBSD : all products included are stable  working fully from the install
sets  packages.
OpenBSD : just install necessary things.
Ubuntu : All products are allowd to the dist, even unstable
Ubuntu : installs many many things as a workstation use even on server version
of ubuntu

Ubuntu is a good choice too, but it has a workstation-like setup, +server
functions, so it can use many ram and many cpu.

OpenBSD : just need an bi-annual upgrade, version to version,  gets light
charge on server itself.

I prefer having OpenBSD to all servers but application server.
I prefer having Linux to applications server to use
GUI-applications-manager/monitor.



 
 From: Juan Miscaro jmisc...@gmail.com
 Sent: Thu Jul 07 15:02:08 CEST 2011
 To: openbsd-misc misc@openbsd.org
 Subject: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?


 Was wondering what advantages OpenBSD has over a progressive Linux
 distribution such as Ubuntu (Server edition).  One thing I noticed is
 that they're having a hell of a time transitioning away from the
 traditional sysvinit-based system to the Upstart event-based init
 daemon system.

 --
 /jm



Cordialement
Francois Pussault
3701 - 8 rue Marcel Pagnol
31100 ToulouseB 
FranceB 
+33 6 17 230 820 B  +33 5 34 365 269
fpussa...@contactoffice.fr



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-07 Thread Ingo Schwarze
Hi Juan,

Juan Miscaro wrote on Thu, Jul 07, 2011 at 09:02:08AM -0400:

 Was wondering what advantages OpenBSD has over a progressive Linux
 distribution such as Ubuntu (Server edition).  One thing I noticed is
 that they're having a hell of a time transitioning away from the
 traditional sysvinit-based system to the Upstart event-based init
 daemon system.

For starters, there is 100% consensus among developers that we'll never
use newfangled overengineered stuff like System V init.

SCNR,
  Ingo



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-07 Thread Alexander Schrijver
 For starters, there is 100% consensus among developers that we'll never
 use newfangled overengineered stuff like System V init.


You mean Upstart!

or wait

You mean systemd!



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-07 Thread STeve Andre'

On 07/07/11 13:25, Ingo Schwarze wrote:

Hi Juan,

Juan Miscaro wrote on Thu, Jul 07, 2011 at 09:02:08AM -0400:


Was wondering what advantages OpenBSD has over a progressive Linux
distribution such as Ubuntu (Server edition).  One thing I noticed is
that they're having a hell of a time transitioning away from the
traditional sysvinit-based system to the Upstart event-based init
daemon system.

For starters, there is 100% consensus among developers that we'll never
use newfangled overengineered stuff like System V init.

SCNR,
   Ingo


To add to this just a little:

The developers don't adopt new things just because they're new.
If something isn't reasonable, useful and secure it isn't used.  This
is one reason why each new release of OpenBSD doesn't have the
currently released version of gcc, for example.

Security means many things besides being attack-proof.  If things
are solid, you don't have to worry about your machines when away
from them.  You also have the fact that if a real problem occurs,
there will be a rapid response to it.

But you need to look the system over, and decide for yourself.
Read the website.  It isn't that large.

--STeve Andre'



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-07 Thread Benjamin Kiessling
 You mean systemd!
 

You'd need udev in the core system. And everybody knows daemontools/runit is
the past, present, and future of init systems.



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-07 Thread jirib
On Thu, 7 Jul 2011 09:02:08 -0400
Juan Miscaro jmisc...@gmail.com wrote:

 Was wondering what advantages OpenBSD has over a progressive Linux
 distribution such as Ubuntu (Server edition).

Are you kidding? Ubuntu? Where installed daemons are running by default,
where there is no command to disable shitty upstart daemons?

I installed once mysql on Ubuntu, just to check something, i disabled
that ugly symlinks in rcX.d via update-rc.d and it was after reboot
running -- well bloody hell, it has also upstart script, OMFG!

jirib



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-07 Thread Amit Kulkarni
 The developers don't adopt new things just because they're new.
 If something isn't reasonable, useful and secure it isn't used.  This
 is one reason why each new release of OpenBSD doesn't have the
 currently released version of gcc, for example.

Wrong. It is because of GPL v3. Gcc in base won't be updated AFAIK.



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-07 Thread STeve Andre'

On 07/07/11 15:12, Amit Kulkarni wrote:

The developers don't adopt new things just because they're new.
If something isn't reasonable, useful and secure it isn't used.  This
is one reason why each new release of OpenBSD doesn't have the
currently released version of gcc, for example.

Wrong. It is because of GPL v3. Gcc in base won't be updated AFAIK.

No, this has always been the case.  I remember back around 2.5 or
so, seeing that OpenBSD hadn't upgraded to the latest gcc, wondering
why.

The GPL 3 issue of today is relevant, but it extends beyond that.

--STeve Andre'



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-07 Thread Zeb Packard
One thing I noticed is
that they're having a hell of a time transitioning away from the
traditional sysvinit-based system to the Upstart event-based init
daemon system.

That's syntactical stuff, who knows. That rabbit hole is as deep
as your project made it. Strategically, OBSD does less, but does
it very well. Linux will claim 5 times more features than OBSD,
but only a third of them work as advertised and that third is a
moving target from one release to the next, without saying one is
better than the other, it just depends on your needs.

I think the bigger question is why are you moving from OBSD to
Ubuntu?



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server? Answer: It doesn't

2011-07-07 Thread Friedrich Locke
Ubuntu is linux, OpenBSD is OpenBSD.

On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 10:02 AM, Juan Miscaro jmisc...@gmail.com wrote:
 Was wondering what advantages OpenBSD has over a progressive Linux
 distribution such as Ubuntu (Server edition).  One thing I noticed is
 that they're having a hell of a time transitioning away from the
 traditional sysvinit-based system to the Upstart event-based init
 daemon system.

 --
 /jm



Re: How does OpenBSD compare to Ubuntu Server?

2011-07-07 Thread Tito Mari Francis EscaƱo
All Linux-based distributions are hacked together like a Frankenstein
monster, coming from disparate sources stitched together to build a new
whole, hoping it won't fall apart anytime soon, while OpenBSD is like a
finely tuned thoroughbred, it may not go first place in speed, but will
deliver with performance while secure.


On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 3:27 AM, Zeb Packard zeb.pack...@gmail.com wrote:

 One thing I noticed is
 that they're having a hell of a time transitioning away from the
 traditional sysvinit-based system to the Upstart event-based init
 daemon system.

 That's syntactical stuff, who knows. That rabbit hole is as deep
 as your project made it. Strategically, OBSD does less, but does
 it very well. Linux will claim 5 times more features than OBSD,
 but only a third of them work as advertised and that third is a
 moving target from one release to the next, without saying one is
 better than the other, it just depends on your needs.

 I think the bigger question is why are you moving from OBSD to
 Ubuntu?