Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-07-08 Thread frank ernest
Please ian, I'm not crititsizing you, or your poject. Perhaps this is a
bad quality, but I'm one of those people who don't like incomplete links
(and that is what is I'm crititsizing.) I expect to click on a link and
voila, there is the web page I'm looking for. Of course, I could look for
the corect one, but I'm assuming that other people are far lazier then I
and they may not want to go through the trouble (and so they need a
complete link.) I thought that as it is your poject you'd have a book
mark or similar availible at a moments notice. I originally tried a
search but your name (ian kermlin) is on none of the projects (which is
highly confusing.) Here, I'll post a link for you; is it:
http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/gsoc2014.html#systemd  ? Thanks, David
PS: As you requested I've cloned the repo
git://uglyman.kremlin.cc/git/systemd-utl.git I'll look over the code for
you.PPS: I've not quoted your previous post as I suspect I caught you at
a bad moment and this is a public and archived mailing list.



Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-07-02 Thread frank ernest
 I intend to produce the four systemd utilities as outlined on the
OpenBSD Foundation's web page, ... This seems unclear to me what you are
refering to http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/ does not contain, as far as
I could see, any software specs/ideas. And, though this sounds quite
pretty, are you intending to follow the  unix  philosophy? ian, Will the
software that you speak of be portable to Linux or is it BSD only? I've
contacted gentoo and they mentioned http://skarnet.org/software/s6/ as an
interesting project to help replace systemd. What do you guys think? I'm
going to try to port to opensuse.



Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-07-02 Thread ian kremlin
 refering to http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/ does not contain, as far as

http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/gsoc2014.html

 software that you speak of be portable to Linux or is it BSD only? I've

i am planning (post-GSOC) on writing an archlinux PKGBUILD and
eventually a debian package.



Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-07-02 Thread frank ernest
 refering to http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/ does not contain, as far
as
 http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/gsoc2014.html Umm, there are at least
24 links on that page to various projects that need done, to which are
you refering?



Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-07-02 Thread ian kremlin
 Umm, there are at least
 24 links on that page to various projects that need done, to which are

if you don't have the time to look through a list of a couple dozen
items for the subject of what you have been criticizing, then i don't
have the time to reply to your petty, innocuous emails. i don't know
what to tell you: i regularly publish snapshots which compile with
strict compiler settings of my project. i pull a single library (GLib)
and have written everything in straight C. i'm valgrinding the shit
out of this bitch before i tag a release candidate and will check,
line by line, every GLib function i call to guarantee i'm free()'ing
everything i'm supposed to and that there are none of the common
over/underflow you'd see in a lazy individual's code. i'm integrating
checksums to guarantee each daemon is afforded the bare-minimum
security policies it can operate under. i host all of this on my
domain from money out of my college-student pockets. would you like to
see what i sent to my mentors when requesting this project? it's got
UNIX and blind sincerity out the wing-wang. i'm fervently passionate
about staying the hell away from systemd and making its existence a
non-issue for luckier operating systems. that's what this whole
project is about; if you actually care about the direction it's
taking, please feel free to read my code and mail me with whatever
issues/bugs you can find -- i'll happily review and patch them in.

ian



Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-06-30 Thread frank ernest
If I'm posting to the wrong bsd list kindly redirect me to the correct
one, I thought misc was best. 
https://uglyman.kremlin.cc/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=systemd-utl.git There is
either something wrong with the web page or firefox as it mentions that
the connection was reset while the page was loading. However, I've used
curl and worked around the issue. I'm not going to read the code just
yet. But I wanted to know, (it's docs are unclear as to what it is
supposed to do,) is it intended to replace systemd? I was going to
propose, if nobody else had, to work to replace systemd. I've read a lot
about it and it's been sending chills up my spine. The devs are
totally unconcerned about how their project breaks others and the
language about policing the processes and the users using cgroups to
force them to only use X amout of cpu time is, well, dictatorish and
promotes laxity in the way of writing your programs and running them to
be light on resources. But, like I said, are other people fixing this in
a cross platform way, or should I work towards that end? The reason
sysVinit is nolonger supported is because it is deemed to difficult to
maintain, at least by the opensuse community. Oh, before I forget, the
systemd project DOES do one thing and do it well, (they cause problems,)
they start and controll all processes on the system. If you read the
initial announcement it even mentions that they wish to replace inetd and
in later pages they also mention cron as something that they could
replace (and at the rate that they are going they will.) Thanks, David



Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-06-30 Thread Sadiq Saif
On 6/30/2014 19:31, frank ernest wrote:
 If I'm posting to the wrong bsd list kindly redirect me to the correct
 one, I thought misc was best. 
 https://uglyman.kremlin.cc/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=systemd-utl.git There is


According to the page about the project on the Google Summer of Code
2014 website:

I intend to produce the four systemd utilities as outlined on the
OpenBSD Foundation's web page, in full form. In doing so, I intend to
adhere to the UNIX philosophy of programming the *BSD community expects
as well as the utmost level of security the OpenBSD community,
specifically, expects. Considering the contentious, political climate
surrounding systemd, I intend for my code to be as unobtrusive and
compliant as possible, specifically with the OpenBSD community.

https://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/project/details/google/gsoc2014/kremlin/5639274879778816

-- 
Sadiq Saif
XMPP - statics...@jabber.org



Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-06-30 Thread ian kremlin
 https://uglyman.kremlin.cc/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=systemd-utl.git There
 is either something wrong with the web page or firefox as it mentions
 that the connection was reset while the page was loading. However,
 I've used

you probably caught me in the middle of a reboot

 yet. But I wanted to know, (it's docs are unclear as to what it is
 supposed to do,) is it intended to replace systemd? I was going to

no. no, no, no it is not. it is meant to provide a few very basic DBus
interfaces who expose an API similar to systemd ones. this is necessary
for porting some GNOME components that depend on them. most of these
DBus interfaces (hostnamed, localed, timedated) have method/properties
that map straight to OpenBSD's standard library. the last one, logind,
is quite complicated and most of my work will concern setting up a
framework for future development.

 propose, if nobody else had, to work to replace systemd. I've read a
 lot about it and it's been sending chills up my spine. The devs are

i am not personally a fan of systemd either, i don't intend to bring
systemd to openbsd or anything like that. my code will still have to
stand up to the usual caliber openbsd ports are subject to, there are no
special guarantees because i am a gsoc student.

thanks
ian



Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-06-29 Thread Daniel Cegiełka
2014-06-29 1:05 GMT+02:00 ian kremlin i...@kremlin.cc:
 that bsd is being crowded out, a thought that had not crossed my mind.
 I wanted to know, before assuming that it is the case everywhere, do
 people really not like systemd and is it really hurting bsd? If so,
 I'd be interested in doing something about it. Thanks, David

 yes, systemd has become a very polarizing subject due to its
 unportability (as it's written in pure C) and the mindset and actions of
 its authors. it is much, much more than an init daemon and while its
 prevalence has served to hurt other systems in the short-term, I
 guarantee you will we work around it and do systemd's job properly and
 safely just as (we) have done with other software in the past. i am not
 a long-term OpenBSD contributor and am admittedly a fledgling
 programmer, but from what I've witnessed much of the
 systemd/anti-systemd debate is rife with needless animosity and ego.

systemd is very invasive and destroys all that different. That's why
people are angry.

http://ewontfix.com/14/
http://ewontfix.com/15/

by Rich Felker (musl libc).


 That said there is a GSOC project underway as we type to bring a much
 slimmed down systemd look-alike functionality to OpenBSD to allow more
 not-well written software to be ported.

 that's me :)
 soon, (by the end of gsoc) we will have perfect implementations of

https://uglyman.kremlin.cc/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=systemd-utl.git;a=blob;f=scripts/gen-gdbus-interfaces.sh;h=f827434d0211ea8765c075fdb2916386ffc16ecb;hb=HEAD

btw. it's bashism in a posix shell suit?

Daniel

 hostnamed, localed, and timedated as well as a framework for porting the
 logind behemoth. you can follow the progress at
 https://uglyman.kremlin.cc/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=systemd-utl.git

 ian



Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-06-29 Thread Antoine Jacoutot
 https://uglyman.kremlin.cc/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=systemd-utl.git;a=blob;f=scripts/gen-gdbus-interfaces.sh;h=f827434d0211ea8765c075fdb2916386ffc16ecb;hb=HEAD
 
 btw. it's bashism in a posix shell suit?

If that is all you were able to spot then move along :-)
It's very pre-alpha WIP and many things will be modified. If you have real 
helpful comments to make, feel free to contact Ian, landry@ and myself.

-- 
Antoine



Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-06-29 Thread Jason Barbier
If we are in such dire need of an init system replacement, why has 
there not been widespread frenzy as with schedulers, package managers, 
packet filters, programming languages and so forth?


Maybe because people don't seem to think the same thing, or feel the 
urgency to replace it. But a decent replacement always starts with one 
person with a good idea that can take criticism and play well with others,




Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-06-29 Thread Eric Furman
My real helpful comments are that it violates every real concept of UNIX
Do ONE thing and do it WELL
Systemd does none of these things.

On Sun, Jun 29, 2014, at 04:51 AM, Antoine Jacoutot wrote:
  https://uglyman.kremlin.cc/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=systemd-utl.git;a=blob;f=scripts/gen-gdbus-interfaces.sh;h=f827434d0211ea8765c075fdb2916386ffc16ecb;hb=HEAD
  
  btw. it's bashism in a posix shell suit?
 
 If that is all you were able to spot then move along :-)
 It's very pre-alpha WIP and many things will be modified. If you have
 real helpful comments to make, feel free to contact Ian, landry@ and
 myself.
 
 -- 
 Antoine



Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-06-29 Thread bodie

On 29.06.2014 12:40, Eric Furman wrote:
My real helpful comments are that it violates every real concept of 
UNIX

Do ONE thing and do it WELL


It's because RedHat (and Oracle) doesn't care about Unix principles (or 
initial ideas of Linux). They are stating it quite clearly and yet 
people and communities can't see that. Especially RedHat does not care 
about Linux or Unix as such. It's company, they want to make profit and 
create form of vendor lock in. That's how sharks operate in that 
territory. Thinking that they will listen to any one be it some 
community leader or some big distribution is at least naive. Look at 
ArchLinux, Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSuSe, Debian, Gentoo and others. It's 
either shut up and play with us or leave Linux game nowadays. And 
because most of the development is done anyway in RedHat and/or Oracle 
they either need to follow or dissapear. So here's that true freedom 
hidden in GPL. Following orders of one/two big corporations and that's 
it. BSD world had crash with corporate world in 90's in USL vs BSDi and 
BSD won, but seems like corporations found another way how to cripple 
Unix roots to its knees.


Think about why Linus is so much in rage mood this year against various 
devs from RedHat and yet can do shit about them because he's no longer 
in control and he knows it. No wonder he choose to focus more on on-line 
Linux courses under Linuxfoundation (he will not have so much time for 
kernel during those for sure).




Systemd does none of these things.

On Sun, Jun 29, 2014, at 04:51 AM, Antoine Jacoutot wrote:
 
https://uglyman.kremlin.cc/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=systemd-utl.git;a=blob;f=scripts/gen-gdbus-interfaces.sh;h=f827434d0211ea8765c075fdb2916386ffc16ecb;hb=HEAD


 btw. it's bashism in a posix shell suit?

If that is all you were able to spot then move along :-)
It's very pre-alpha WIP and many things will be modified. If you 
have

real helpful comments to make, feel free to contact Ian, landry@ and
myself.

--
Antoine




Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-06-29 Thread Gustav Fransson Nyvell

On 06/29/14 13:09, bodie wrote:

On 29.06.2014 12:40, Eric Furman wrote:

My real helpful comments are that it violates every real concept of UNIX
Do ONE thing and do it WELL


It's because RedHat (and Oracle) doesn't care about Unix principles 
(or initial ideas of Linux). They are stating it quite clearly and yet 
people and communities can't see that. Especially RedHat does not care 
about Linux or Unix as such. It's company, they want to make profit 
and create form of vendor lock in. That's how sharks operate in that 
territory. Thinking that they will listen to any one be it some 
community leader or some big distribution is at least naive. Look at 
ArchLinux, Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSuSe, Debian, Gentoo and others. It's 
either shut up and play with us or leave Linux game nowadays. And 
because most of the development is done anyway in RedHat and/or Oracle 
they either need to follow or dissapear. So here's that true freedom 
hidden in GPL. Following orders of one/two big corporations and that's 
it. BSD world had crash with corporate world in 90's in USL vs BSDi 
and BSD won, but seems like corporations found another way how to 
cripple Unix roots to its knees.


Think about why Linus is so much in rage mood this year against 
various devs from RedHat and yet can do shit about them because he's 
no longer in control and he knows it. No wonder he choose to focus 
more on on-line Linux courses under Linuxfoundation (he will not have 
so much time for kernel during those for sure).




Systemd does none of these things.

On Sun, Jun 29, 2014, at 04:51 AM, Antoine Jacoutot wrote:
 
https://uglyman.kremlin.cc/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=systemd-utl.git;a=blob;f=scripts/gen-gdbus-interfaces.sh;h=f827434d0211ea8765c075fdb2916386ffc16ecb;hb=HEAD


 btw. it's bashism in a posix shell suit?

If that is all you were able to spot then move along :-)
It's very pre-alpha WIP and many things will be modified. If you have
real helpful comments to make, feel free to contact Ian, landry@ and
myself.

--
Antoine


UNIX is very old. Some hang on to one or two principles like they're the 
word of god. For example, in this discussion, that one tool should do 
one thing and do it well. It kind of makes you blind. Look at the bigger 
picture. Isn't systemd doing one thing and doing it well? Sure, it's 
opaque, I guess. Do you miss configuring by file? I do, I think it's 
reliable. Maybe systemd needs a bit of KISS criticism, because it sure 
isn't looking simple. At the end of the day, all we need is a running 
system, we don't need... dbus. However, like I started this, the word of 
god gets in the way, there are a lot of convenient things going on in 
Linux (or Ubuntu, I used Ubuntu.) This is where you hate me but I like 
the kernel or system to use the entire computer for the task I am doing, 
but I am mainly a desktop user or non-server user, at least on the 
home laptop. When I compile, I want ALL resources working towards it. If 
I watch a movie, ALL resources towards it. The machine's focus should be 
on what I want to do. And... well, this is where UNIX gets in the way. I 
think we could develop UNIX, just look at Plan 9. There are some great 
ideas in there. Which have been implemented too. Everything as a file, 
is a very good idea. It's very simple. UNIX does not have this idea in 
it. But I think like Theo de Raadt wrote, I don't know what they are 
chasing about the corporations, Red Hat et al. It's not the finer 
points of computer discoveries they're after. Plan 9 isn't a huge 
commercial success, but it's fine. Well, just my two cents!


--
This e-mail is confidential and may not be shared with anyone other than 
recipient(s) without written permission from sender. Public domain through misc@



Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-06-29 Thread Antoine Jacoutot
So first you comment on Ian's GSoC and now on systemd... thai is confusing. I 
don't care about systemd we will never have  it. We just need some interfaces 
that are currently only implemented  in systemd.

 Eric Furman ericfur...@fastmail.net wrote:

My real helpful comments are that it violates every real concept of UNIX
Do ONE thing and do it WELL
Systemd does none of these things.

On Sun, Jun 29, 2014, at 04:51 AM, Antoine Jacoutot wrote:
  https://uglyman.kremlin.cc/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=systemd-utl.git;a=blob;f=scripts/gen-gdbus-interfaces.sh;h=f827434d0211ea8765c075fdb2916386ffc16ecb;hb=HEAD
  
  btw. it's bashism in a posix shell suit?
 
 If that is all you were able to spot then move along :-)
 It's very pre-alpha WIP and many things will be modified. If you have
 real helpful comments to make, feel free to contact Ian, landry@ and
 myself.
 
 -- 
 Antoine



Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-06-29 Thread Antoine Jacoutot
Why are people poluting our lists with systemd rants??? There is nothing to 
discuss since we do not want and will never have systemd. If you don't 
understand what the systemd-utl GSoC is about then move along.

 Gustav Fransson Nyvell gus...@nyvell.se wrote:

On 06/29/14 13:09, bodie wrote:
 On 29.06.2014 12:40, Eric Furman wrote:
 My real helpful comments are that it violates every real concept of UNIX
 Do ONE thing and do it WELL

 It's because RedHat (and Oracle) doesn't care about Unix principles 
 (or initial ideas of Linux). They are stating it quite clearly and yet 
 people and communities can't see that. Especially RedHat does not care 
 about Linux or Unix as such. It's company, they want to make profit 
 and create form of vendor lock in. That's how sharks operate in that 
 territory. Thinking that they will listen to any one be it some 
 community leader or some big distribution is at least naive. Look at 
 ArchLinux, Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSuSe, Debian, Gentoo and others. It's 
 either shut up and play with us or leave Linux game nowadays. And 
 because most of the development is done anyway in RedHat and/or Oracle 
 they either need to follow or dissapear. So here's that true freedom 
 hidden in GPL. Following orders of one/two big corporations and that's 
 it. BSD world had crash with corporate world in 90's in USL vs BSDi 
 and BSD won, but seems like corporations found another way how to 
 cripple Unix roots to its knees.

 Think about why Linus is so much in rage mood this year against 
 various devs from RedHat and yet can do shit about them because he's 
 no longer in control and he knows it. No wonder he choose to focus 
 more on on-line Linux courses under Linuxfoundation (he will not have 
 so much time for kernel during those for sure).


 Systemd does none of these things.

 On Sun, Jun 29, 2014, at 04:51 AM, Antoine Jacoutot wrote:
  
 https://uglyman.kremlin.cc/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=systemd-utl.git;a=blob;f=scripts/gen-gdbus-interfaces.sh;h=f827434d0211ea8765c075fdb2916386ffc16ecb;hb=HEAD
 
  btw. it's bashism in a posix shell suit?

 If that is all you were able to spot then move along :-)
 It's very pre-alpha WIP and many things will be modified. If you have
 real helpful comments to make, feel free to contact Ian, landry@ and
 myself.

 -- 
 Antoine

UNIX is very old. Some hang on to one or two principles like they're the 
word of god. For example, in this discussion, that one tool should do 
one thing and do it well. It kind of makes you blind. Look at the bigger 
picture. Isn't systemd doing one thing and doing it well? Sure, it's 
opaque, I guess. Do you miss configuring by file? I do, I think it's 
reliable. Maybe systemd needs a bit of KISS criticism, because it sure 
isn't looking simple. At the end of the day, all we need is a running 
system, we don't need... dbus. However, like I started this, the word of 
god gets in the way, there are a lot of convenient things going on in 
Linux (or Ubuntu, I used Ubuntu.) This is where you hate me but I like 
the kernel or system to use the entire computer for the task I am doing, 
but I am mainly a desktop user or non-server user, at least on the 
home laptop. When I compile, I want ALL resources working towards it. If 
I watch a movie, ALL resources towards it. The machine's focus should be 
on what I want to do. And... well, this is where UNIX gets in the way. I 
think we could develop UNIX, just look at Plan 9. There are some great 
ideas in there. Which have been implemented too. Everything as a file, 
is a very good idea. It's very simple. UNIX does not have this idea in 
it. But I think like Theo de Raadt wrote, I don't know what they are 
chasing about the corporations, Red Hat et al. It's not the finer 
points of computer discoveries they're after. Plan 9 isn't a huge 
commercial success, but it's fine. Well, just my two cents!

-- 
This e-mail is confidential and may not be shared with anyone other than 
recipient(s) without written permission from sender. Public domain through 
misc@



Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-06-29 Thread Franco Fichtner
On 29 Jun 2014, at 13:43, Antoine Jacoutot ajacou...@bsdfrog.org wrote:

 Why are people poluting our lists with systemd rants??? There is nothing to 
 discuss since we do not want and will never have systemd. If you don't 
 understand what the systemd-utl GSoC is about then move along.

First of all, this is misc@.  And, secondly, whenever different
opinions meet there is potential to learn and improve.  Thank you
for your understanding.


Cheers,
Franco



Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-06-29 Thread Gustav Fransson Nyvell

On 06/29/14 13:43, Antoine Jacoutot wrote:

Why are people poluting our lists with systemd rants??? There is nothing to 
discuss since we do not want and will never have systemd. If you don't 
understand what the systemd-utl GSoC is about then move along.

  Gustav Fransson Nyvell gus...@nyvell.se wrote:


On 06/29/14 13:09, bodie wrote:

On 29.06.2014 12:40, Eric Furman wrote:

My real helpful comments are that it violates every real concept of UNIX
Do ONE thing and do it WELL

It's because RedHat (and Oracle) doesn't care about Unix principles
(or initial ideas of Linux). They are stating it quite clearly and yet
people and communities can't see that. Especially RedHat does not care
about Linux or Unix as such. It's company, they want to make profit
and create form of vendor lock in. That's how sharks operate in that
territory. Thinking that they will listen to any one be it some
community leader or some big distribution is at least naive. Look at
ArchLinux, Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSuSe, Debian, Gentoo and others. It's
either shut up and play with us or leave Linux game nowadays. And
because most of the development is done anyway in RedHat and/or Oracle
they either need to follow or dissapear. So here's that true freedom
hidden in GPL. Following orders of one/two big corporations and that's
it. BSD world had crash with corporate world in 90's in USL vs BSDi
and BSD won, but seems like corporations found another way how to
cripple Unix roots to its knees.

Think about why Linus is so much in rage mood this year against
various devs from RedHat and yet can do shit about them because he's
no longer in control and he knows it. No wonder he choose to focus
more on on-line Linux courses under Linuxfoundation (he will not have
so much time for kernel during those for sure).



Systemd does none of these things.

On Sun, Jun 29, 2014, at 04:51 AM, Antoine Jacoutot wrote:

https://uglyman.kremlin.cc/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=systemd-utl.git;a=blob;f=scripts/gen-gdbus-interfaces.sh;h=f827434d0211ea8765c075fdb2916386ffc16ecb;hb=HEAD

btw. it's bashism in a posix shell suit?

If that is all you were able to spot then move along :-)
It's very pre-alpha WIP and many things will be modified. If you have
real helpful comments to make, feel free to contact Ian, landry@ and
myself.

--
Antoine

UNIX is very old. Some hang on to one or two principles like they're the
word of god. For example, in this discussion, that one tool should do
one thing and do it well. It kind of makes you blind. Look at the bigger
picture. Isn't systemd doing one thing and doing it well? Sure, it's
opaque, I guess. Do you miss configuring by file? I do, I think it's
reliable. Maybe systemd needs a bit of KISS criticism, because it sure
isn't looking simple. At the end of the day, all we need is a running
system, we don't need... dbus. However, like I started this, the word of
god gets in the way, there are a lot of convenient things going on in
Linux (or Ubuntu, I used Ubuntu.) This is where you hate me but I like
the kernel or system to use the entire computer for the task I am doing,
but I am mainly a desktop user or non-server user, at least on the
home laptop. When I compile, I want ALL resources working towards it. If
I watch a movie, ALL resources towards it. The machine's focus should be
on what I want to do. And... well, this is where UNIX gets in the way. I
think we could develop UNIX, just look at Plan 9. There are some great
ideas in there. Which have been implemented too. Everything as a file,
is a very good idea. It's very simple. UNIX does not have this idea in
it. But I think like Theo de Raadt wrote, I don't know what they are
chasing about the corporations, Red Hat et al. It's not the finer
points of computer discoveries they're after. Plan 9 isn't a huge
commercial success, but it's fine. Well, just my two cents!

--
This e-mail is confidential and may not be shared with anyone other than 
recipient(s) without written permission from sender. Public domain through misc@

I'm not saying GET systemd. I thought this was a broad discussion. And 
I'm NOT ranting.


--
This e-mail is confidential and may not be shared with anyone other than 
recipient(s) without written permission from sender. Public domain thru misc@



Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-06-29 Thread Daniel Cegiełka
2014-06-29 13:40 GMT+02:00 Antoine Jacoutot ajacou...@bsdfrog.org:
 So first you comment on Ian's GSoC and now on systemd... thai is confusing.
 I don't care about systemd we will never have  it. We just need some 
 interfaces
 that are currently only implemented  in systemd.

This is the right approach to the subject: we need only some
interfaces from systemd. Nothing more.



Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-06-29 Thread Antoine Jacoutot
Ok then my counter argument will be: second of all, this is misc@

 Franco Fichtner slash...@gmail.com wrote:

On 29 Jun 2014, at 13:43, Antoine Jacoutot ajacou...@bsdfrog.org wrote:

 Why are people poluting our lists with systemd rants??? There is nothing to 
 discuss since we do not want and will never have systemd. If you don't 
 understand what the systemd-utl GSoC is about then move along.

First of all, this is misc@.  And, secondly, whenever different
opinions meet there is potential to learn and improve.  Thank you
for your understanding.


Cheers,
Franco



Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-06-29 Thread Kevin Chadwick
previously on this list Gustav Fransson Nyvell contributed:

 UNIX is very old. Some hang on to one or two principles like they're the 
 word of god. For example, in this discussion, that one tool should do 
 one thing and do it well. It kind of makes you blind. Look at the bigger 
 picture. Isn't systemd doing one thing and doing it well? Sure, it's 
 opaque, I guess

Not at all and I could write pages about how damaging it is but won't.
I'm successfully abandoning Linux on everything but my TVs and phone
(one day, them too I expect).

Systemd's design page on freedesktop.org (how ironic) is more of a
collection of largely incorrect thoughts that demonstrate UNIX
inexperience than a specification or design document should rightly be
seen as a good indicator of how thoughtless it's design is. RedHat had
goals and I am sure it is meeting them but do not think for one second
that RedHats goals are aligned with general users beyond replacing
Linux's rediculously overcomplicated init scripts (the carrot), the
subject of this thread is the stick. RedHats userland code has
surprisingly poor reputations especially for a multi-billion dollar
company. It wouldn't surprise me if the following is actually part of
the true design document and knowingly leveraged to satisfy their true
agenda. Either that or RedHat is simply unprofessional.
 

There are two ways of constructing a software design. One is to make
it so simple that there are OBVIOUSLY no deficiencies. And the other is
to make it so complicated that there are no OBVIOUS deficiencies

Professor C. A. R. Hoare
The 1980 Turing award lecture

-- 
___

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)

In Other Words - Don't design like polkit or systemd
___



Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-06-28 Thread Kenneth Westerback
On 28 June 2014 13:55, frank ernest do...@mail.com wrote:
 Hello, I'm ballsystemlord from the Opensuse forums and I've been reading
 a lot about how systemd is unportable, even for use with some linux
 programs and the systemd devs are not concerned about it. I, as a single
 person, can't possibly hope to maintain the old sysVinit system and also
 systemd is a dameon controlling process, not restricted to only boot. A
 usr of bsd showed up
 http://forums.opensuse.org/showthread.php/498290-systemd/page4 mentioning
 that bsd is being crowded out, a thought that had not crossed my mind. I
 wanted to know, before assuming that it is the case everywhere, do people
 really not like systemd and is it really hurting bsd? If so, I'd be
 interested in doing something about it. Thanks, David


Yep, people really do not like systemd. Leaving aside the problem that
it seems to be so Linux-centric it is impossible to port elsewhere.

Note that OpenBSD has never used sysVinit or variants. We have a much
simpler system that works well as long as the software being
controlled is well written.

That said there is a GSOC project underway as we type to bring a much
slimmed down systemd look-alike functionality to OpenBSD to allow more
not-well written software to be ported.

 Ken



Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-06-28 Thread ian kremlin
 that bsd is being crowded out, a thought that had not crossed my mind.
 I wanted to know, before assuming that it is the case everywhere, do
 people really not like systemd and is it really hurting bsd? If so,
 I'd be interested in doing something about it. Thanks, David

yes, systemd has become a very polarizing subject due to its
unportability (as it's written in pure C) and the mindset and actions of
its authors. it is much, much more than an init daemon and while its
prevalence has served to hurt other systems in the short-term, I
guarantee you will we work around it and do systemd's job properly and
safely just as (we) have done with other software in the past. i am not
a long-term OpenBSD contributor and am admittedly a fledgling
programmer, but from what I've witnessed much of the
systemd/anti-systemd debate is rife with needless animosity and ego.

 That said there is a GSOC project underway as we type to bring a much
 slimmed down systemd look-alike functionality to OpenBSD to allow more
 not-well written software to be ported.

that's me :)
soon, (by the end of gsoc) we will have perfect implementations of
hostnamed, localed, and timedated as well as a framework for porting the
logind behemoth. you can follow the progress at
https://uglyman.kremlin.cc/gitweb/gitweb.cgi?p=systemd-utl.git

ian



Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-06-28 Thread Stuart Henderson
On 2014-06-28, Kenneth Westerback kwesterb...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 28 June 2014 13:55, frank ernest do...@mail.com wrote:
 Hello, I'm ballsystemlord from the Opensuse forums and I've been reading
 a lot about how systemd is unportable, even for use with some linux
 programs and the systemd devs are not concerned about it. I, as a single
 person, can't possibly hope to maintain the old sysVinit system and also
 systemd is a dameon controlling process, not restricted to only boot. A
 usr of bsd showed up
 http://forums.opensuse.org/showthread.php/498290-systemd/page4 mentioning
 that bsd is being crowded out, a thought that had not crossed my mind. I
 wanted to know, before assuming that it is the case everywhere, do people
 really not like systemd and is it really hurting bsd? If so, I'd be
 interested in doing something about it. Thanks, David


 Yep, people really do not like systemd.

Even a significant number of Linux users I've talked to about it really
don't like systemd.

Just looking at the pid 1 part and ignoring the rest, there are way too
many tentacles (library dependencies on SELinux, TCP Wrappers, dbus, PAM!)...



Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-06-28 Thread Franco Fichtner
On 28 Jun 2014, at 19:55, frank ernest do...@mail.com wrote:

 wanted to know, before assuming that it is the case everywhere, do people
 really not like systemd and is it really hurting bsd? If so, I'd be
 interested in doing something about it. Thanks, David

A fact is that systemd slowly tears the open source world apart.
Whether that is a bad thing for BSD or a bad thing for Linux is
something that only time will tell.  There is no sign of decline
in BSD activity, both development and usage, as far as I can tell.

Another fact is that systemd is driven by a large cooperation
and aimed for maximum coverage, which has been mostly achieved.
Whether the framework has a skynet-esque future ahead of it is
something that remains to be seen as well.  With all the `tentacles'
mentioned by Stuart, that is not a far-fetched, yet still daring,
possibility.

Finally, systemd is written by remarkable people who more often
than not fail to address the constructive criticism they have
been facing.  Their lack for the other side will keep them from
making systemd something that is worthwhile for all of today's
modern operating systems if such a feat can indeed be achieved.

I'm not so sure.

If we are in such dire need of an init system replacement, why
has there not been widespread frenzy as with schedulers, package
managers, packet filters, programming languages and so forth?


Cheers,
Franco



Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-06-28 Thread Giancarlo Razzolini
Em 28-06-2014 20:39, Stuart Henderson escreveu:
 Even a significant number of Linux users I've talked to about it really
 don't like systemd.
Hate it. Made all my linux based systems slower.

 Just looking at the pid 1 part and ignoring the rest, there are way too
 many tentacles (library dependencies on SELinux, TCP Wrappers, dbus, PAM!)...
Tentacles? This is a ls of the src dir of systemd:

ac-power
activate
analyze
ask-password
backlight
binfmt
boot
bootchart
bus-proxyd
cgls
cgroups-agent
cgtop
compat-libs
core
cryptsetup
dbus1-generator
delta
detect-virt
efi-boot-generator
fsck
fstab-generator
getty-generator
gpt-auto-generator
gudev
hostname
initctl
journal
kernel-install
libsystemd
libsystemd-network
libudev
locale
login
machine
machine-id-setup
Makefile
modules-load
network
notify
nspawn
nss-myhostname
python-systemd
quotacheck
random-seed
rc-local-generator
readahead
remount-fs
reply-password
rfkill
run
shared
shutdownd
sleep
socket-proxy
sysctl
systemctl
systemd
system-update-generator
test
timedate
tmpfiles
tty-ask-password-agent
udev
update-utmp
vconsole

This design goes against anything Unix. Instead of doing a specific
thing well, they try to do all things and many of them half ass. If
someone take a look at the recent discussion with Linus and one of the
systemd developers, which ultimately ended with Linus removing commit
access from the developer, one can see where systemd is headed.

Cheers,

-- 
Giancarlo Razzolini
GPG: 4096R/77B981BC



Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-06-28 Thread Henning Brauer
* ian kremlin i...@kremlin.cc [2014-06-29 01:05]:
 due to its unportability (as it's written in pure C)

that doesn't make the slightest sense.

pure C can be and often is perfectly portable.

-- 
Henning Brauer, h...@bsws.de, henn...@openbsd.org
BS Web Services GmbH, http://bsws.de, Full-Service ISP
Secure Hosting, Mail and DNS. Virtual  Dedicated Servers, Root to Fully Managed
Henning Brauer Consulting, http://henningbrauer.com/



Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-06-28 Thread patrick keshishian
On 6/28/14, Henning Brauer lists-open...@bsws.de wrote:
 * ian kremlin i...@kremlin.cc [2014-06-29 01:05]:
 due to its unportability (as it's written in pure C)

 that doesn't make the slightest sense.

 pure C can be and often is perfectly portable.

i took it as sarcasim.

--patrick



Re: crowding out bsd using systemd?

2014-06-28 Thread ian kremlin
 that doesn't make the slightest sense.

 pure C can be and often is perfectly portable.

those were not the right words, i meant to convey that because systemd
uses its own DBus binding (and not an already-ported lib like
GIO/GDbus) it would be difficult to port, as that binding is seemingly
very specific to systemd and doesn't expose (or guarantee the
reliability of) existing generic APIs. that, plus how complex and
specific  the low level DBus API is makes it much more painstaking and
unnecessary. it would end up looking more like a fork than anything.