Re: Resilient RAID
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 10:45:01PM -0500, Marco Peereboom wrote: I've lost 3 due to washing... I've revived many with a toothbrush and alcohol. It's not the water, but all of the stuff that deposits on the thing. Still, just take the backups...
Re: Resilient RAID
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 10:45:01PM -0500, sl...@peereboom.us wrote: I've lost 3 due to washing... So, stop washing your clothes ;-) On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 05:28:06PM -0700, Greg Thomas wrote: On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 7:11 AM, Marco Peereboom sl...@peereboom.us wrote: USB sticks primary cause of death is the washing machine and/or dryer. Second one probably is sitting out in the sun. I have yet to see the USB stick that dies because it was written to. Funny thing is I still haven't killed one by washing machine or dryer, and I've sent many through the wash/dry cycle. Greg -- Olivier Cherrier - Symacx.com mailto:o...@symacx.com
Re: Resilient RAID
On Thu, 20 May 2010 18:53:38 +0200 Henning Brauer lists-open...@bsws.de wrote: * Xavier Beaudouin k...@oav.net [2010-05-20 17:34]: And if you don't want to suffer because of a harddisk failure you can also use flashrd to make the openbsd stuff on a DOM, a Compact Flash or even an USB key. 1) flashrd and friends are bullshit, just use your CF/DOM/Whatever like a regular harddisk. the write cycle myth is just a myth these days, the current stuff copes transparently. 2) flash never fails, right. fuck redundancy, I have flash! -- Henning Brauer, h...@bsws.de, henn...@openbsd.org BS Web Services, http://bsws.de Full-Service ISP - Secure Hosting, Mail and DNS Services Dedicated Servers, Rootservers, Application Hosting If you check usb flash stick packaging, it may say guaranteed for a 1000 writes which is marketing crypto speech for, sectors may fail after 1000 writes. I've also had a usb stick fail due to the pcb inside dying, which could happen to your motherbaord, network card, fans causing overheat. Things akin to backup dns entries and carp are always the way to go, if you can. And for backup a power surge can always take out a whole raid set anyway and though the platters should be alright, I'm not so sure flash would survive. Raid hasn't entered into my backup strategy's yet. I'd only use it if I had money to throw away and data that had to be stored faster than a network card could carry it with absolutely no loss of any sectors, or maybe as a last extra layer of redundancy. KeV
Re: Resilient RAID
* Kevin Chadwick ma1l1i...@yahoo.co.uk [2010-05-21 11:28]: On Thu, 20 May 2010 18:53:38 +0200 Henning Brauer lists-open...@bsws.de wrote: * Xavier Beaudouin k...@oav.net [2010-05-20 17:34]: And if you don't want to suffer because of a harddisk failure you can also use flashrd to make the openbsd stuff on a DOM, a Compact Flash or even an USB key. 1) flashrd and friends are bullshit, just use your CF/DOM/Whatever like a regular harddisk. the write cycle myth is just a myth these days, the current stuff copes transparently. 2) flash never fails, right. fuck redundancy, I have flash! If you check usb flash stick packaging, it may say guaranteed for a 1000 writes which is marketing crypto speech for, sectors may fail after 1000 writes. cut the crap. take a random usb stick and don't mail misc until it fails due to exceeded write cycles. we'll never again hear form you in life. I've also had a usb stick fail due to the pcb inside dying, which could happen to your motherbaord, network card, fans causing overheat. see? as I said, they fail, but not for write cycles. -- Henning Brauer, h...@bsws.de, henn...@openbsd.org BS Web Services, http://bsws.de Full-Service ISP - Secure Hosting, Mail and DNS Services Dedicated Servers, Rootservers, Application Hosting
Re: Resilient RAID
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 09:01, Henning Brauer lists-open...@bsws.de wrote: If you check usb flash stick packaging, it may say guaranteed for a 1000 writes which is marketing crypto speech for, sectors may fail after 1000 writes. cut the crap. take a random usb stick and don't mail misc until it fails due to exceeded write cycles. we'll never again hear form you in life. I've also had a usb stick fail due to the pcb inside dying, which could happen to your motherbaord, network card, fans causing overheat. see? as I said, they fail, but not for write cycles. or they get left in a pants pocket, and they get washed (multiple times) http://www.amazon.com/Corsair-Flash-Voyager-Drive-CMFUSB2-0-32GB/dp/B000XUMR6C I've had this thumbdrive for almost 3 years, and have washed it at least a half dozen times, sometimes it got through to the dryer... Still running solid... has almost 30 GB of stuff on it regularly
Re: Resilient RAID
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 11:25:00AM +0100, Kevin Chadwick wrote: On Thu, 20 May 2010 18:53:38 +0200 Henning Brauer lists-open...@bsws.de wrote: * Xavier Beaudouin k...@oav.net [2010-05-20 17:34]: And if you don't want to suffer because of a harddisk failure you can also use flashrd to make the openbsd stuff on a DOM, a Compact Flash or even an USB key. 1) flashrd and friends are bullshit, just use your CF/DOM/Whatever like a regular harddisk. the write cycle myth is just a myth these days, the current stuff copes transparently. 2) flash never fails, right. fuck redundancy, I have flash! -- Henning Brauer, h...@bsws.de, henn...@openbsd.org BS Web Services, http://bsws.de Full-Service ISP - Secure Hosting, Mail and DNS Services Dedicated Servers, Rootservers, Application Hosting If you check usb flash stick packaging, it may say guaranteed for a 1000 writes which is marketing crypto speech for, sectors may fail after 1000 writes. I've also had a usb stick fail due to the pcb inside dying, which could happen to your motherbaord, network card, fans causing overheat. Things akin to backup dns entries and carp are always the way to go, if you can. And for backup a power surge can always take out a whole raid set anyway and though the platters should be alright, I'm not so sure flash would survive. Raid hasn't entered into my backup strategy's yet. I'd only use it if I had money to throw away and data that had to be stored faster than a network card could carry it with absolutely no loss of any sectors, or maybe as a last extra layer of redundancy. KeV USB sticks primary cause of death is the washing machine and/or dryer. Second one probably is sitting out in the sun. I have yet to see the USB stick that dies because it was written to.
Re: Resilient RAID
On Fri, 2010-05-21 at 11:25 +0100, Kevin Chadwick wrote: If you check usb flash stick packaging, it may say guaranteed for a 1000 writes which is marketing crypto speech for, sectors may fail after 1000 writes. However, the root partion is not often written to so presumably I could have / on the USB stick and swap, /var, /usr, /tmp et al. on a mirrored pair? John
Re: Resilient RAID
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 04:28:32PM +0100, John Rowe wrote: On Fri, 2010-05-21 at 11:25 +0100, Kevin Chadwick wrote: If you check usb flash stick packaging, it may say guaranteed for a 1000 writes which is marketing crypto speech for, sectors may fail after 1000 writes. However, the root partion is not often written to so presumably I could have / on the USB stick and swap, /var, /usr, /tmp et al. on a mirrored pair? It isn't an issue so stop. John
Re: Resilient RAID
On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 9:53 AM, Henning Brauer lists-open...@bsws.de wrote: 2) flash never fails, right. fuck redundancy, I have flash! when you say flash are you talking about http://www.transcendusa.com/products/ModDetail.asp?ModNo=177 or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_flash_drive the first one is said to have the same MTBF of the mother board and so on thanks --Siju
Re: Resilient RAID
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 7:11 AM, Marco Peereboom sl...@peereboom.us wrote USB sticks primary cause of death is the washing machine and/or dryer. Second one probably is sitting out in the sun. I have yet to see the USB stick that dies because it was written to. A bit confusing :-( http://www.mail-archive.com/us...@crater.dragonflybsd.org/msg08923.html thanks --Siju
Re: Resilient RAID
If you check usb flash stick packaging, it may say guaranteed for a 1000 writes which is marketing crypto speech for, sectors may fail after 1000 writes. cut the crap. take a random usb stick and don't mail misc until it fails due to exceeded write cycles. we'll never again hear form you in life. Probably is crap, but I didn't say it would, I meant the manufacturers atleast in the early days (128Mb), didn't believe it to be as reliable for many writes as hard disk sectors or else why would they bother covering themselves, of course there's no heads to crash which maybe one of the few reasons for raid. I was quite shocked, at the packaging at the time.
Re: Resilient RAID
On Fri, 21 May 2010 16:28:32 +0100 John Rowe r...@excc.ex.ac.uk wrote: On Fri, 2010-05-21 at 11:25 +0100, Kevin Chadwick wrote: If you check usb flash stick packaging, it may say guaranteed for a 1000 writes which is marketing crypto speech for, sectors may fail after 1000 writes. However, the root partion is not often written to so presumably I could have / on the USB stick and swap, /var, /usr, /tmp et al. on a mirrored pair? John Sorry, Did't mean to change your plans, you should always back up anyway and not worry about it, I'm sure many can confirm more writes than this. Just my personal preference for many reasons, if you have space, is hard drives.
Re: Resilient RAID
However, the root partion is not often written to so presumably I could have / on the USB stick and swap, /var, /usr, /tmp et al. on a mirrored pair? You probably already have, but it's often a good idea to have a separate /var/log partition to allow more control over running out of space problems and more specific fstab possibility's such as noexec.
Re: Resilient RAID
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 05:05:19PM +0100, Kevin Chadwick wrote: If you check usb flash stick packaging, it may say guaranteed for a 1000 writes which is marketing crypto speech for, sectors may fail after 1000 writes. cut the crap. take a random usb stick and don't mail misc until it fails due to exceeded write cycles. we'll never again hear form you in life. Probably is crap, but I didn't say it would, I meant the manufacturers atleast in the early days (128Mb), didn't believe it to be as reliable for many writes as hard disk sectors or else why would they bother covering themselves, of course there's no heads to crash which maybe one of the few reasons for raid. I was quite shocked, at the packaging at the time. Because corporations are run by lawyers who need to feel important and therefore latch on to one issue during the development cycle. Lawyers in other companies simply imitate. Welcome to corporate america.
Re: Resilient RAID
On May 21 16:28:32, John Rowe wrote: On Fri, 2010-05-21 at 11:25 +0100, Kevin Chadwick wrote: If you check usb flash stick packaging, it may say guaranteed for a 1000 writes which is marketing crypto speech for, sectors may fail after 1000 writes. However, the root partion is not often written to so presumably I could have / on the USB stick and swap, /var, /usr, /tmp et al. on a mirrored pair? You could also have everything on the USB stick, and possibly also STFU while you are at it, because it's a non-issue.
Re: Resilient RAID
Jan Stary wrote: On May 21 16:28:32, John Rowe wrote: On Fri, 2010-05-21 at 11:25 +0100, Kevin Chadwick wrote: If you check usb flash stick packaging, it may say guaranteed for a 1000 writes which is marketing crypto speech for, sectors may fail after 1000 writes. However, the root partion is not often written to so presumably I could have / on the USB stick and swap, /var, /usr, /tmp et al. on a mirrored pair? You could also have everything on the USB stick, and possibly also STFU while you are at it, because it's a non-issue. =) you could run with *two* usb sticks in each of your *two* redundant embedded machines that each have *two* power supplies. the only single point of epic fail in this configuration is this thread.
Re: Resilient RAID
* Siju George sgeorge...@gmail.com [2010-05-21 19:13]: On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 9:53 AM, Henning Brauer lists-open...@bsws.de wrote: 2) flash never fails, right. fuck redundancy, I have flash! when you say flash are you talking about http://www.transcendusa.com/products/ModDetail.asp?ModNo=177 or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_flash_drive the first one is said to have the same MTBF of the mother board and so on I'm talking about common flash types. no specific products. -- Henning Brauer, h...@bsws.de, henn...@openbsd.org BS Web Services, http://bsws.de Full-Service ISP - Secure Hosting, Mail and DNS Services Dedicated Servers, Rootservers, Application Hosting
Re: Resilient RAID
On Fri, 21 May 2010 10:13:33 -0700 Siju George sgeorge...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 7:11 AM, Marco Peereboom sl...@peereboom.us wrote USB sticks primary cause of death is the washing machine and/or dryer. Second one probably is sitting out in the sun. I have yet to see the USB stick that dies because it was written to. A bit confusing :-( http://www.mail-archive.com/us...@crater.dragonflybsd.org/msg08923.html thanks --Siju It's mornings like this when I wonder why I bother to chew through the restraints. (sigh) This stuff is neither difficult nor confusing if you take the time to learn *just* the basics of how things actually work. 1.) How is data stored? (sectors? pages? ...) 2.) What is a Partial Storage Failure? (including Bad Sectors and Write Exhaustion and similar)? 3.) What is Storage Allocation (i.e. internally to the disk/device)? 4.) What is Remapping? 5.) What is Wear Leveling? Start with understanding rotating, magnetic hard disk storage, and then figure out the equivalents for flash based storage. -- The OpenBSD Journal - http://www.undeadly.org
Re: Resilient RAID
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 7:11 AM, Marco Peereboom sl...@peereboom.us wrote: USB sticks primary cause of death is the washing machine and/or dryer. Second one probably is sitting out in the sun. I have yet to see the USB stick that dies because it was written to. Funny thing is I still haven't killed one by washing machine or dryer, and I've sent many through the wash/dry cycle. Greg
Re: Resilient RAID
I've lost 3 due to washing... On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 05:28:06PM -0700, Greg Thomas wrote: On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 7:11 AM, Marco Peereboom sl...@peereboom.us wrote: USB sticks primary cause of death is the washing machine and/or dryer. Second one probably is sitting out in the sun. I have yet to see the USB stick that dies because it was written to. Funny thing is I still haven't killed one by washing machine or dryer, and I've sent many through the wash/dry cycle. Greg
Re: Resilient RAID
On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 2:04 PM, Henning Brauer lists-open...@bsws.de wrote: I'm talking about common flash types. no specific products. Sorry to confuse you :-( I was also not talking about products but the two differrent category of stuff both commonly called here as flash Thanks --Siju
Re: Resilient RAID
I ran a firewall/server for a year on a flash stick with full logging. No problems. As an ex-chip-verification-engineer, the BIG caveat is temperature. Failures will at least double for every 10C above 20C or so. Heat is electronics most vicious enemy. geoff steckel curmudgeon for hire, rent, or loan
Re: Resilient RAID
* John Rowe r...@excc.ex.ac.uk [2010-05-20 16:02]: I need an inexpensive OpenBSD system that will survive a disk failure, to act as a firewall. wrong approach, see below My understanding from the on-line documentation and the list archives is that the new RAID system, softraid, does not support having the root partition on RAID meaning that if the system disk fails the machine crashes. Is this (still) correct? yes. it'll change eventually. If so, the installation notes for 4.7 suggest against using RAIDframe (and even mis-spell the hyperlink!), which raises two further questions: What is the most recent OpenBSD release that does support and document installing on to RAID? none. it's pointless anyway. use two machines and carp, et voila, resilent against a lot more things than just disk failures. -- Henning Brauer, h...@bsws.de, henn...@openbsd.org BS Web Services, http://bsws.de Full-Service ISP - Secure Hosting, Mail and DNS Services Dedicated Servers, Rootservers, Application Hosting
Re: Resilient RAID
What is the most recent OpenBSD release that does support and document installing on to RAID? none. it's pointless anyway. use two machines and carp, et voila, resilent against a lot more things than just disk failures. And if you don't want to suffer because of a harddisk failure you can also use flashrd to make the openbsd stuff on a DOM, a Compact Flash or even an USB key. /Xavier
Re: Resilient RAID
If your firewall has to run in not so hostile conditions like sub-zero temperatures or large temp differences over short time (typically right under the roof), consider using flash memory (CF-ATA converters being available around 20 USD) instead of hard disk + eventually mfs for some logging or so. We're running and know about hundreds of settings like this without any serious problems and very minimal percentage of failures. 2010/5/20, Henning Brauer lists-open...@bsws.de: * John Rowe r...@excc.ex.ac.uk [2010-05-20 16:02]: I need an inexpensive OpenBSD system that will survive a disk failure, to act as a firewall. wrong approach, see below My understanding from the on-line documentation and the list archives is that the new RAID system, softraid, does not support having the root partition on RAID meaning that if the system disk fails the machine crashes. Is this (still) correct? yes. it'll change eventually. If so, the installation notes for 4.7 suggest against using RAIDframe (and even mis-spell the hyperlink!), which raises two further questions: What is the most recent OpenBSD release that does support and document installing on to RAID? none. it's pointless anyway. use two machines and carp, et voila, resilent against a lot more things than just disk failures. -- Henning Brauer, h...@bsws.de, henn...@openbsd.org BS Web Services, http://bsws.de Full-Service ISP - Secure Hosting, Mail and DNS Services Dedicated Servers, Rootservers, Application Hosting -- Martin PelikC!n, Steadynet E-mail: martin.peli...@gmail.com, gpg key 0x7176E4C9 Tel: +420 724 818 573 Jabber: sztor...@jabber.cz web: http://cap.potazmo.cz/
Re: Resilient RAID
* Xavier Beaudouin k...@oav.net [2010-05-20 17:34]: And if you don't want to suffer because of a harddisk failure you can also use flashrd to make the openbsd stuff on a DOM, a Compact Flash or even an USB key. 1) flashrd and friends are bullshit, just use your CF/DOM/Whatever like a regular harddisk. the write cycle myth is just a myth these days, the current stuff copes transparently. 2) flash never fails, right. fuck redundancy, I have flash! -- Henning Brauer, h...@bsws.de, henn...@openbsd.org BS Web Services, http://bsws.de Full-Service ISP - Secure Hosting, Mail and DNS Services Dedicated Servers, Rootservers, Application Hosting
