Re: [Mixxx-devel] [Feature Proposal] Ctlra Controller Hotplug Support

2017-07-07 Thread Harry van Haaren 
On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 8:45 PM, Sébastien Blaisot  wrote:

> Hi Harry,
>

Hey!


> Mixxx is a cross-platform application (Linux, MacOS, Windows).
>
Is ctrla also a cross-platform library ?
>

Currently nope, it is a WIP library developed and tested on Linux only. The
APIs are not
OS-specific in any way, and the libraries (currently) in use all claim to
be cross-platform.
That means *in theory*, Ctlra is cross-platform too, but actually
compiling/testing/etc is
required (and as you probably know, that's a huge amount of work :)


> If this is not the case, it is a show stopper IMHO.
>

I understand that for Mixxx it would be ideal if Ctlra supported all
targets - totally understand.
As you're aware x-platform development requires significant time, testing,
and access to the
platforms themselves. I do not have access to large quantities of time, or
OsX/Win platforms.

I'll ask a few questions, just to get understand your point-of-view that
this could be a show stopper.
How much of the blueprint / wiki / youtube-video / etc are you familiar
with? I'd like to avoid
sweeping the Ctlra idea off the table just because its not currently cross
platform - even if it is only
a POC on how to implement hotplug/HD screens, isn't that a valuable
contribution to Mixxx?


Regards,
>
> sb
>

Thanks for your input - of course when suggesting a new method/library to
do things, there will
be "bumpy" parts that need to be worked through, and I appreciate your
highlighting that in this
case cross-platform support is likely going to be one of those bumpy parts!

Thanks again, -Harry


PS: You've replied to the first email I sent, not the latest email in the
thread, in which I attempted to
explain the value of the Ctlra library to Mixxx - reasons for using C, and
hopefully what value add
the Ctlra library would have for a project like Mixxx. If you didn't see
the newer one yet, perhaps
it is of interest.


>
> Le 06/07/2017 à 23:57, Harry van Haaren a écrit :
>
> Hi All,
>
> First of all - this is my first post to the Mixxx-devel list, so a brief
> intro is in order;
> I'm Harry van Haaren, developer of the OpenAV audio software, bit of a
> music/tech/linux head :)
>
> I've recently been working on improving controller support in Linux audio
> land, in particular
> what I call "modern USB HID" controller devices (think DJ controllers like
> Akai/NI/Abletons range).
> I've developed the Ctlra library as OpenAV, which provides access to these
> hardware devices
> on Linux. The library allows hotplug and various other "advanced" features
> like accessing
> screens on devices.
>
> I'd like to integrate Ctlra into Mixxx - to provide access to hardware
> currently not available
> to Linux users, and also to provide hotplug support to those controllers.
> I've created a blueprint
> on Launchpad[1], and written an introduction on Ctlra and how I propose to
> integrate it in Mixxx[2].
> Finally, there is a documentation page on what Ctlra itself achieves
> here[3], and the source is here[4].
>
> If you have an interest in hotplug of controllers, controller support or
> hardware on Linux,
> do have a read of the wiki page and others, and I'd appreciate your input
> on the ideas!
>
> Thanks for all your efforts on Mixxx so far, onwards and upwards!
> -Harry of OpenAV
>
> [1] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/mixxx/+spec/ctlra-controller-support
> [2] https://www.mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/ctlra_support
> [3] http://openavproductions.com/doc/ctlra.html
> [4] https://github.com/openAVproductions/openAV-ctlra
>
> --
>
> http://www.openavproductions.com
>
>
>
> 
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>



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Re: [Mixxx-devel] [Feature Proposal] Ctlra Controller Hotplug Support

2017-07-07 Thread Sébastien Blaisot 


Hi Harry,

Mixxx is a cross-platform application (Linux, MacOS, Windows).
Is ctrla also a cross-platform library ?

If this is not the case, it is a show stopper IMHO.

As far as I can see, it only seems to be documented under linux.

Regards,

sb

Le 06/07/2017 à 23:57, Harry van Haaren a écrit :

Hi All,

First of all - this is my first post to the Mixxx-devel list, so a 
brief intro is in order;
I'm Harry van Haaren, developer of the OpenAV audio software, bit of a 
music/tech/linux head :)


I've recently been working on improving controller support in Linux 
audio land, in particular
what I call "modern USB HID" controller devices (think DJ controllers 
like Akai/NI/Abletons range).
I've developed the Ctlra library as OpenAV, which provides access to 
these hardware devices
on Linux. The library allows hotplug and various other "advanced" 
features like accessing

screens on devices.

I'd like to integrate Ctlra into Mixxx - to provide access to hardware 
currently not available
to Linux users, and also to provide hotplug support to those 
controllers. I've created a blueprint
on Launchpad[1], and written an introduction on Ctlra and how I 
propose to integrate it in Mixxx[2].
Finally, there is a documentation page on what Ctlra itself achieves 
here[3], and the source is here[4].


If you have an interest in hotplug of controllers, controller support 
or hardware on Linux,
do have a read of the wiki page and others, and I'd appreciate your 
input on the ideas!


Thanks for all your efforts on Mixxx so far, onwards and upwards!
-Harry of OpenAV

[1] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/mixxx/+spec/ctlra-controller-support
[2] https://www.mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/ctlra_support
[3] http://openavproductions.com/doc/ctlra.html
[4] https://github.com/openAVproductions/openAV-ctlra

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Re: [Mixxx-devel] [Feature Proposal] Ctlra Controller Hotplug Support

2017-07-07 Thread Harry van Haaren 
On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Daniel Schürmann  wrote:

> Hi Harry,
>

Hi!


> I have looked a bit closer to the concepts of Ctlra
>

Thanks for looking!


> and it has a strong issue: "The device specific files are written in c."
>

Yes it written in C. This is a deliberate design choice, which has various
consequences. Some of them are positive, other are negative.

These are some benefits: performance, availability of various libraries for
device access (bluetooth, MIDI, serial, others), ability to easily create
wrappers to other languages, integration into low-power/embedded systems
(RPi, beaglebone, etc), "lowest-common-denominator" of programming
languages.

Downsides include (as you point out); typically a more static workflow,
slower development pace, libraries update slower (although even if the
libraries were JS, that wouldn't solve the issue, this is a distro
packaging rate issue regardless of what feature/project we talk of).


> In terms of am everage use, a library is updated by the various Linux
> distros in a two years cycle. I am in doubt that the manufacturer a will
> ship a Ctlra build along with there hardware. So it takes about two years
> after a brand new controller reaches the Ctlra shipped with distros.
> Looking at pre-installed default mappings Mixxx suffers the same issue.
>
> There is only a minority of users a talented musician, spending a
> reasonable amount of money for a new controller and a talented C programmer
> at the same time. It is a high hurdle to set up an build environment,
> reengineer the controller, build a library and make it work.
>

Exactly - which is why I feel that unless we integrate this all into a
library that we can all benefit from, the controller situation with the
Linux platfrom will not improve.


> If the user actually manages this, it is another hurdle to bring the
> device specific into a rock solid maintainable state and merge it upstream.
> And even if the user manages all these, the upstream maintainer cannot
> verify the proposed  code, because he most likely did not own the new shiny
> controller as well. Mixxx has the same issue regarding pre-installed
> default mappings.
>

Correct again - which is why we must be vigilant to help contributors who
have devices - perhaps even find a way to collaborate on device support.


>  fortunately Mixxx has a point and click GUI to map even unknown
> controllers.
>

Only for MIDI controllers IIRC? Or does it "magically" work for USB HID
devices too? If so, please tell me more - I'm all ears.


> It provides an outstanding scripting engine that is relative easy for
> simple tasks but has the full power of a Touring-complete language.
> Integrating a brand new hid mapping still requires bit smashing, but at
> least it can be done with a simple text editor, nothing more.
>

So can writing scripts in C, by using TCC and writing "C script files". Its
not a common workflow (yet) but it really is a fantastic way of writing
Mixxx bindings. I know because the POC of Mixxx with Ctlra integration
works beautifully - DJ tracks while updating the mapping for a device using
C as the language.

Did you get the point?
>

I understand your concern yes - and believe me I have thought about exactly
this issue, but stand with the choice I have previously made.


> How to solve this?
>

TCC. TCC allows us to dynamically script in C, removing the issue of
"compiling". If you haven't yet, please look at the video here, where I
demonstrate the value of TCC:
https://youtu.be/-bwynA7HRow?t=2038



> Not sure if it works, but how about benefit from all the work already done
> in Mixxx? Instead of making Ctlra a new controller type in Mixxx we can put
> it between the Mixxx engine an the Mixxx controller mapping.
> This way all openAV apps can benefit from the existing mappings in Mixxx
> and from the sounds scripting language to solve hard issues. Mixxx can
> benefit from modern controller support contributed directly to openAV.
>
> What do you think?
>

I see your point of view - and understand the concern about the work. Yes
there is a lot of work to be done, and it requires both skilled programmers
and access to the device itself. I don't see a method to avoid that -
regardless of the tooling, programming requires skill and that's that.

My reasons for creating Ctlra are more than an attempt to bring more modern
controllers to Mixxx - it is to enable any audio application easily
integrate support for controllers. This means that the device is available
with all its functionality: that includes HD screens and fancy features. I
do not see a way to allow HD screens be updated from JS - another reason
why C is the language I chose for Ctlra.

In short, I think I'm aware of the magnitude of the work required to make
Ctlra a useful library - but I see this as work that can be reused
throughout the community if we design and implement it well, which
ultimately provides more value to the community than

Re: [Mixxx-devel] [Feature Proposal] Ctlra Controller Hotplug Support

2017-07-07 Thread Daniel Schürmann 
Hi Harry,

I have looked a bit closer to the concepts of Ctlra, and it has a strong
issue: "The device specific files are written in c."

In terms of am everage use, a library is updated by the various Linux
distros in a two years cycle. I am in doubt that the manufacturer a will
ship a Ctlra build along with there hardware. So it takes about two years
after a brand new controller reaches the Ctlra shipped with distros.
Looking at pre-installed default mappings Mixxx suffers the same issue.

There is only a minority of users a talented musician, spending a
reasonable amount of money for a new controller and a talented C programmer
at the same time. It is a high hurdle to set up an build environment,
reengineer the controller, build a library and make it work.

If the user actually manages this, it is another hurdle to bring the device
specific into a rock solid maintainable state and merge it upstream. And
even if the user manages all these, the upstream maintainer cannot verify
the proposed  code, because he most likely did not own the new shiny
controller as well. Mixxx has the same issue regarding pre-installed
default mappings.

 fortunately Mixxx has a point and click GUI to map even unknown
controllers. It provides an outstanding scripting engine that is relative
easy for simple tasks but has the full power of a
Touring-complete language. Integrating a brand new hid mapping still
requires bit smashing, but at least it can be done with a simple text
editor, nothing more.

Did you get the point?

How to solve this?

Not sure if it works, but how about benefit from all the work already done
in Mixxx? Instead of making Ctlra a new controller type in Mixxx we can put
it between the Mixxx engine an the Mixxx controller mapping.
This way all openAV apps can benefit from the existing mappings in Mixxx
and from the sounds scripting language to solve hard issues. Mixxx can
benefit from modern controller support contributed directly to openAV.

What do you think?

Kind regards,

Daniel



Am 07.07.2017 1:07 vorm. schrieb "Daniel Schürmann" :

> Hi Harry,
>
> welcome to Mixxx.
>
> That is awesome.  :-)
> A BIG thank you to make this real!
>
> I have just skimmed over the linked resources and it looks like this
> closes exactly the gap between Mixxx and HID controllers.
>
> Currently Mix has HID controller support, but it requires scripting, and a
> lot of bit mashing to make a controller work.
> Unlike MIDI controllers, you cannot learn them via point and click GUI.
>
> You need a lot of knowledge of the interns of the controller.
> It is a great idea to put this knowledge in a single library and share
> these info between all Linux Audio Projects.
>
> Are you going to contribute to Mixxx an work towards an Ctlra interface?
>
> Here are some links:
>
> Our HID API js is described here:
> https://www.mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/hid_device_api
>
> Which is used for example here:
> https://github.com/mixxxdj/mixxx/blob/8d191bf7ce2d62d24c6e0f
> fac4b2afd7359afa8a/res/controllers/Nintendo-Wiimote.js
>
> Here is a good introduction how we work in the Mixxx project:
> https://www.mixxx.org/wiki/doku.php/bugfix_workflow
>
> If I understand the Ctlra concept correct, it can finally replace all our
> controller APIs on a long run. On a short run, it can be used parallel to
> portmidi, right?
>
> The portmidi implementation can be found here:
> https://github.com/mixxxdj/mixxx/tree/master/src/controllers/midi
> https://github.com/mixxxdj/mixxx/blob/2cf29ba14da099a9d19f43
> 5a71b2ee95b9f4815e/build/depends.py#L28
>
> Can we roughly name the steps to do? :
> * crate src/controllers/ctlra
> * copy all files over
> * adopt them for ctlra
>
> Of cause there will be a lot more things to consider.
>
> Do you see a chance to port this to Mac and Windows as well?
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Daniel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Am 06.07.2017 um 23:57 schrieb Harry van Haaren:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> First of all - this is my first post to the Mixxx-devel list, so a brief
>> intro is in order;
>> I'm Harry van Haaren, developer of the OpenAV audio software, bit of a
>> music/tech/linux head :)
>>
>> I've recently been working on improving controller support in Linux audio
>> land, in particular
>> what I call "modern USB HID" controller devices (think DJ controllers
>> like Akai/NI/Abletons range).
>> I've developed the Ctlra library as OpenAV, which provides access to
>> these hardware devices
>> on Linux. The library allows hotplug and various other "advanced"
>> features like accessing
>> screens on devices.
>>
>> I'd like to integrate Ctlra into Mixxx - to provide access to hardware
>> currently not available
>> to Linux users, and also to provide hotplug support to those controllers.
>> I've created a blueprint
>> on Launchpad[1], and written an introduction on Ctlra and how I propose
>> to integrate it in Mixxx[2].
>> Finally, there is a documentation page on what Ctlra itself achieves
>> here[3], and the source is here[4].

Re: [Mixxx-devel] Procedure to check off & merge PR

2017-07-07 Thread Be 
Yes please comment on the pull request on GitHub. Reviewing code is 
helpful, but even just a comment verifying that the code works as 
intended is helpful.


On 07/06/2017 06:31 PM, Radu Suciu wrote:

Just comment on the PR on github. Testing is always good!

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 4:19 PM, Waylon Robertson 
> wrote:


Okay, i find myself playing with PR's, and testing mixxx live. I was
wondering, how can i as a developer, capitalise on this, by testing
PR's and checking them off as good, officially?


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