All
Like Bo, I didn't contribute to developing the list of the "problems
with the MoQ" in this month's focus though all have vexed me from time
to time. In the giving spirit of this season I feel that if Struan can
give of his valuable holiday time to again restate the "academic"
problem with
Justin, Mder's
And next, Quality is not an attribute. Remember, from
Pirsig's writings, that Quality is not just an object,
and not just the subject- It is both. Everything is
created by Quality.
(Question- does that make objects with less Quality
less real? It doesn't seem to change its
Diana
As you said it's a question of relevance. If we are honestly looking for
the "problems with the MoQ" as I said, unarguably poorly, in my essay on
MoQ website years ago and in this post with a little more technical
backup, the "strawman" criticism is a "red herring" argument that
advocates
Struan, All
Something new, thank you. Listening to you parrot Strawson's "strawman"
argument over the years with much of your focus on Phaedrus's "SoM"
rants I couldn't help wonder why you bothered. (aside from your obvious
relish for tweaking noses) But a few posts back you "claimed" to
Oh large grey one,
More and more I find myself wincing whenever I hear a phrase like
"because the static patterns are just that:STATIC." (my emphasis) I
think Pirsig's self admitted bias against "static" ("static patterns are
dead") can lead to a misunderstanding of the nature of static patterns
3WD to Pachaderm
in my veiw, in order for their to be change there has to be
some identity of the thing to be changed: change must coexist with the
stable identity, static for however fleeting a moment, of the thing
changed.
Agreed, and I also left out the important relational concept of
Couple of links to make following the Struan/Elephant dialogue possible
for the scholastically challenged like myself.
http://www.calresco.org/lucas/context.htm
http://www.calresco.org/ethics.htm
Interestingly the second paper lists Pirig's Lila as a reference. H mmm.
Horse: The site's author
Struan, Elephant, All
Struan, your Monday post in this thread with exerpts from your first
post to this forum triggered recollections of why I first became
involved here. Pirsig wrote both books in novel form. And, I think even
you have conceded that at least one was 'good' . But "Why as
All
Struan
Just to let you know that you have verfied my initial scepticism about
your apparent kind words and complete "agreement" with my latest
posting. I would also like to join those who find your contributions
here of value. I find them of value in several ways.
First, they are an
Mder
Just correcting a logical inconsistancy in my last post where I wrote:
But I'm sure Struan will help me.
Should have been followed by:
"But probably not."
3WD
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To
Elephant
Don't take it personally. Any of us who have been here for a while could
have predicted the outcome of your attempt to engage Struan in a
meaningful give and take dialogue with the anticipation of finding some
common ground of 'good' in the MoQ. Unlike Strawson, who at least left
open
Mders
Glenn
The common ground you propose is that Lila is great art, but I think that
too is disputable. Do you really want to go there?
3WD
Lila,Great? Actually I think ZaMM is of higher quality than Lila but
history is the ultimate 'art critic', not I. But yes, in my opinion
they're both
Struan
That is why I don't tend to hide behind pseudonyms like 3WD
If you search the archives you will find that I originally posted under
my full name, "David L Thomas" but since there were and are so many
"Daves" "Davids" here it was confusing to all. So I adopted a
pseudonym to help the
Glen, David P, All
David
Good link, thanks.
Glen
Lila is first and foremost about a metaphysics.
3WD
I prefer to say that Lila and ZaMM are stories about an individual's
quest for metaphysical understanding. But if you go to the link that
David posted down near the bottom of the second
All
I'm encouraged. We are making progress. Struan is helping (in spite of
himself) and even though we don't like his style, even he (though he
will probably vehemently deny it) is making progress towards a more
balanced position on the MoQ.
In part he has conceded that Pirsig is not an
All
Iambic and Lenny
communicate
while.
Struan
labours
in
sadness.
3WD
PS: Struan, as a caricature of Phaedrus, we love you. The stench of
urine clears the mind and awaken the soul.
PPS: The bottom line is that Horse,with his eminent power,will not
terminate your contract. You'll have to do
All
IN AN ATTEMPT TO RESCUE ROG FROM UNQUESTIONABLE IMMORALITY
DAVE IS RUN OVER BY GOD.
Rog
ROG ANSWERS PLATT'S GREAT QUESTIONS, BUT
COMES OUT WITH A QUESTIONABLE RECORD
The world is primarily a moral order?
Again only if moral means quality or value or interrelationships. The
Kev,
and how can pirsig claim to philosophize
in an original and creative way,
considering heidegger accomplished what merely pirsig tried to,
only earlier, more comprehensively, and downright better?
And why not Ken Wilber, a card carrying Buddhist?
And then reading Wilbur in the
All
A POSTMODERN RECONSTRUCTION:
Kevin Sanchez Tue Feb 23 1999 - 02:20:19 GMT
I have pondered a lot about Pirsig's place amidst the fight between
modernity and postmodernity,
Kevin Sanchez Mon Mar 29 1999 - 16:43:24 BST
A philosophy labeled "postmodernity" has begun. Instead of a savior,
Platt
No intent to confound, confuse, or criticize, but I admit that this is a
convoluted sentence.
I'm equally sure that even though Platt, for instance, may not
like or buy this interpretation he'll NOT see fit to call me or Pirsig
an ignorant liar or plagarist because he does not agree
Rog,Marco,Elephant, All
ROG:
William James explains how direct experience can be "taken twice." Certain
aggregations of experience can be taken to refer to "external reality" and
other combinations of experience as internal states. In "Does Consciousness
Exist? he writes that ..."pure
Paul
Welcome
The solutes/solvents is an apt enough metaphor. Now just think of them
as a river, which you can never step into twice, and you've got the basics.
3WD
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To
Rick, Glenn, Elephant
Great comedy!
Would suggest to all that if you haven't read any "late Wilbur" ie
"Integral Psychology" of "The Theory of Everything" it might give you a
few yuks.
Or check out this site.
http://www.worldofkenwilber.com/
3WD
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All
After your heated discussion about "Are atoms aware?" and even if this
is only so to some miniscule, very limited degree, I think the more
important question is:
What practical difference(s),in terms of human experience, would it make
if this theory were true?
Or even if this was never
All
I've noticed that phases like us mystics and mystics I know have
cropped up in this thread. What does this mean? Is it that these
mystics truely are mystics or is it that they believe reaching a
'mystic' level is possible? The reason that I ask is that I have never
met anyone who honestly
John
Glad to hear you have gotten into Wilbur. One of his latest Integral
Psychology has a whole series of charts relating the work of others
from ancient to present times to his four quadrant theory. While you
were gone I developed and sent to those who ask a chart relating the MoQ
to Wilbur's
All
I've noticed this from time to time in Roger's, Platt's, and other posts
including my own. When it showed up in mine I was writing in a word
processing program and pasting into e-mail. When I stopped doing that it
went away.
3WD
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All
Diana
I think I'll put a more strongly worded warning about copyright
on the website. Hopefully that will discourage further abuses.
3WD
Along with that you might offer one taste of reality. Something like:
This website and related sites, their URL's , and email list servers
are
Dan, Diana, All
Diana from here MOQ Book post:
Any other suggestions?
Yes
I will parallel this post with a private one, Dan, but if you are not
detached by now, sorry to see you go, particularly in this manner. But
it might be all for the better. We shall see.
After the smarting abides a
Of 3dwavedave
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 11:52 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Dan Glover
Subject: Re: MD Authors Rights
Dan, Diana, All
Diana from her MOQ Book post:
Any other suggestions?
Yes
I will parallel this post with a private one, Dan, but if you are not
detached
Joel
Excellent post.
Strong intellects and strong egos often seem to go hand in hand. From
time to time tempers flare, egos get bruised, but usually it cools down
quite soon.
Though Diana is the primary instigator of the LS/MoQ.org sites she
rarely posts on MD anymore preferring the M- Focus
All
Good job Rog. A few web definitions to base the static qualities of
socialism on.
socialism
A social system based on equality and social justice, once linked with
common ownership of the means of production and distribution, but now
become more
fluid. Some writers consider that socialism
Mangiola
I supremely believe that an idea of free energy should be free.
You might want to check these free reports out:
http://www.geotherm.org/PotentialReport.htm
http://www.geotherm.org/WorldWideContribution.htm
http://www.eren.doe.gov/geopoweringthewest/geomap.html
3WD
PS: Some US
Mangiola
So the question that should be asked : Whats stopping them?
One, most probably capital and two, a sufficient return which would
allow that capital to be paid back with interest.
Why have I not heard of this before?
Only you can answer this, but yes in countries like Finland
Marco
Just a quick note. The pressures of capitalism call (I got to pay some bills)
You have not talked of federal investments.
Of money that is made by folks like me in private endeavors and spent by
governments. Sometimes to great advantage and most times much less so.
3WD
MOQ.ORG -
surely that's Iceland?
Ooops you're right, I've a bad data link between my brain and my computer
3WD
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Matt
Jist becus it's git'n no closer don't mean it's BAD. Maybe DQ is a
mystical carrot on an infinitely short stick. We experience the crunch,
but never seem to be able to chew to the core. But since the 'crunch' is
GOOD, we just keep on chew'n.
3WD
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John
It's a reference in one of Wilbur's most recent books titled
Evolutionary Psychology to Spiral Dynamics a system based on
original reseach by Dr Clare Graves. For a brief web introduction go here:
http://www.spiraldynamics.org/learning/intro2SD.pdf
3WD
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All
A couple of links for libertarian wanna be's and don't wanna be's.
http://www.econlib.org/index.html
http://server.fee.org/about/aboutclichesandfs.html
Or check out the writing of Sheldon Richman.
3WD
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all
The other gradual shift you see from ZMM to Lila is one that normally
occurs in most humans during the aging process from a more liberal to a
more conservative PoV. Sometimes its called wisdom. But it ain't
necessarily so. Or is it?
3WD
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