I'm new to this list, so please forgive my ignorance of prior posts on
this topic.
I'm concerned about posts positing control of second hand smoke via the
market. The market needs help from the government (us) when it comes to
regulating or controlling destructive human behavior.
The following is a modification of my position. I tried to follow the
thread, but my ISP's software won't allow the lengthy address required, I think.
Sorry.
Bans and prohibitions imposed by government are a slippery slope. One
has only to look at the abortion issue today and
I really don't see how Laura's proposed new drug delivery methods for
nicotine are relevant to the HVAC system that Michael Atherton proposes,
although she is right about the latter being expensive. I also don't see scrubbing
mentioned anywhere in Atherton's post, but his proposal for
I think that I might be one of the few folks on this list that have
actually kicked someone in the butt. It happened at another time and place in my
life when I was a much bigger louse surrounded by managers, workers, and
business owners nearly as lousy as me or perhaps more so. But today
I gave up believing that a long life is necessarily a good in itself, at
least for myself, because the path of one pathology versus another often
affects quality over quantity as the Mark Twain selection quoted earlier points
out. For instance, it has become known recently by those who
Shawn Lewis posted a letter from a Linnea Anderson of St. Paul regarding
this subject (what is really behind the defunding of Spike Moss's position at
The City, Inc.; Anderson suggests that it is a funding crisis), and Pamela
Tayler has thrown a gauntlet to the list and Moss as well to
I remember squirming through the several hours of Manufacturing
Consent.., another film by Mark Achbar et al. It is very interesting material, but in
this particular medium it was like watching paint dry. Perhaps my mind has
been warped by evil multinational corporations, but I think I'll
Let me use my second post today, to apologize on my last not being relevant
to Mpls. To correct this violation of the rules, let me say that a boredom risk
exists for those patronizing the Lagoon and seeing this film, The
Corporation, if my past experience of the film maker's work holds true
Not that Mann's question is irrelevant (What capabilities have the
finalists demonstrated that make them the best of
a very large pool of candidates for the job of school district
superintendent,
in the opinion of the board members?), but although I am unable to find the
RFP on the MPS web
You know, I fully meant to stop posting on this topic, but the article in
today's Strib (Thursday, 6/10/04) about the HCMC patient winning the right to
smoke in the hospital in a court decision yesterday just got my what is left
of my brain squirming to get back to the subject. I'm a
Here is an hypothesis: Nothing a school district can do directly will
ever narrow the learning gap posited by our community of statisticians (I won't
cite Twain or Byron, but assume they are measuring something real, but just
don't know it). What we are seeing is a culture gap beyond the
Below the asterisks you will find a post that ignores the issues addressed
in those posts that it seeks to trivialize and tailor to some purpose known
only to the author. If the status quo referred to below was that of
underfunding of Minneapolis Public Schools, I could agree; but something
I loved Get Smart, and this idea is a real stroke of genius. Lee R.
Eklund is to be congratulated for a workable variation of the proposed amendment
to the St. Paul ordinance that we could also adopt here in Minneapolis.
Lowering these cones would not be much different than the suction
Oops,
My cone accolades should've been signed Bill Kahn, Prospect Park.
REMINDERS:
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before continuing it on the list.
2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
For state and national discussions
Please forgive this post; I don't think it is a rule violation since the last
post was just to add my name and neighborhood to the last. I just had to add
a feature to Mr. Eklund's proposed smoking cones. People often have to visit
the restroom in bars and restaurants and this would necessitate
There was an interesting article in the Strib on Saturday about
cohousing. Ever since I joined a housing cooperative in my first years of college, the
idea of this sort of living for transforming a culture has been apparent to
me; and this article caused me to revisit and articulate it
No argument from me about Bill Cullen's point below. I don't really know
Section 8 housing to the last detail as I stated in my first post. My point was
that traditional housing choices may not be the best fit for many folks with
behavioral problems or a financial shortfall as Cullen
Warning: ideas mixed with satire follow. Concerns about downsizing our
police department might very well vanish if we can succeed in downsizing crime
an equal amount. We could take a page out of the GW Bush Administration play
book and redefine a few crimes out of existence, or perhaps we
Although I have no advanced degree, this old Anthropology major has got to
object to the opinion expressed in the first post below (pasted below
asterisks). Human beings are different from other social mammals in that our use of
culture, information passed across generations outside of the
Zoning is but one powerful tool in the land use planning arena, and an
often misused one. Upzoning in carefully targeted areas of the city might be
something to consider, but might have dire consequences in many other areas. The
limited city control over property values includes zoning in
Nick Frank states: To my knowledge the city is not involved in any way with
any of the following Downtown projects in planning or currently under
construction: [a list of condo developments]
The city is involved in all of these developments because the city
permits them based on the
;-)I'm at it again;-( The regional solution is vice asylums. I'm far from a
right wing conservative free marketer and I consider myself a liberal on most
issues; but my opposition to this ban is visceral. Smoking tobacco by myself or
by those surrounding me has diminished my quality and
The City of Minneapolis would be better served by encouraging businesses
and new permit applicants to go smoke-free, rather than imposing it on them. It
would be cheaper to offer short term incentives and deterrents than to
enforce the provisions of any state, metropolitan, county, or
The closing of Pratt School was as devastating to Prospect Park in 1982
as it is likely to be should it happen again. The building was saved then by a
group of neighbors with the help of MPS by keeping it open as a Community
Education Center managed by MPS Community Education who presently
In a message dated 6/29/04 11:18:37 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
And, Bill Kahn, I don't think you need to apologize to the list for keeping
Pratt's situation up for discussion. I would rather that it were one
of many associated threads that included Kenny's, Hiawatha's, Northrop's,
Howe's,
I find these comments to be particularly discourteous and
insulting, but also in keeping with the values of many of my
neighbors. I've always wondered whether other neighborhoods
of Minneapolis are as...well...unconcerned with truth,
justice, and individual rights as the residents of Prospect
Mike Jensvold writes: The comparison that someone made earlier of Lake with
University was helpful. I'm curious if anyone knows the exact width of
right-of-way for the two streets?
Bill Kahn carps: I suggest those interested in these tidbits consult the
right of way folks in the Hennepin
A HREF=http://www.lakestreet.info/;Lake St. Site/A
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before continuing it on the list.
2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
For state and national discussions see:
Thank you David Curle for the nice summation of this apparent, but the
move is just good old fashioned union busting without the skull bashing; it
just goes to show how superfluous unions have become. The dividing tactic serves
to move parents to charter options and to move teachers to an
I'm all for this equipment and think the ethical arguments are bankrupt,
but I am biased perhaps.
Decades ago in another state, I appeared in court for a speeding citation
and was given traffic school at my request. The class and the police sergeant
who taught it, all gave up a Saturday
Bill Kahn wrote:
Decades ago in another state, I appeared in court for a speeding
citation
and was given traffic school at my request. The class and the police
sergeant
who taught it, all gave up a Saturday to all brush up on traffic laws. On
the
specific subject of running red lights, I
There is nothing unusual about DFLers doing literature drops or door
knocking in districts other than their own; what was unusual in Phyllis Kahn's
case was picking literature up. I've not seen much nor asked about the reasons
or motivation for Kahn's actions, but I suspect, aside from
Peter Schmitz writes:
If people on this list feel that a DFL State Representative lifting campaign
literature belonging to the Republican party is not a serious matter, then
what's the big deal about lifting lawn signs?
Bill Kahn responds: It is a simple difference. Lawn signs are a step up in
Michael Atherton writes:
No, I will continue to ABSTAIN until PPERRIA becomes truly
democratic again. Even if I had voted it wouldn't have given
students any power, it would have just provided the illusion of
power.
I think all of this is extremely ironic because I believe that
PPERRIA
Jeanne Massey writes:
As stated in earlier posts, IRV voting at the state level is unlikely to
happen anytime soon. Still, it's important to move forward in everyway
possible. At the state level, the most important legislation in the coming
session related to IRV will be the Help America Vote
Thanks to all of you so much for your input on IRV. I really do feel
that this particular method of voting can bring back a bit more democracy to
our
democracy. I remain, as ever, confused as all hell.
This particular DFL'er will be happy to seize the opportunity to sign a
city
All I can say is that I'm glad someone is stepping forward on the
issue. As a student of urban and regional planning in California, the sometime
policy abberations charged to competition between chartered cities versus those
whose form is dictated by the state legislature are instructive:
Ed Felien of Powderhorn writes the following:
Subject: [Mpls] Changing the City Charter
Democracy is messy. Herron illustrates an abuse of power by an elected
official, but how would taking the constituent service element away from
City Council Members eliminate the power of lobbyists to buy
Can anyone tell me why the Minneapolis Library Board is suspending
this tremendously popular bookmobile to a notoriously underserved part of
Minneapolis? It was paid for initially with Phase I NRP funds, I believe, and
no
adequate explanation for nixing a tremendously successful program
Bill Kahn wrote:
One can argue subsidies for employee salaries exist [at Pratt School],
but I think that argument is largely wrong
Bill Kahn corrects himself:
I've since verified that Prospect Park NRP Phase I funds have
subsidized Pratt School salaries to the tune of a 0.3 time
Michael Atherton continues to generalize what he thinks my reasoning is based
upon:
So, following the consistent flow of your argument, then
you would support 0.3 time of some police positions being
subsidized by the NRP (as long as they eventually go away)?
As I understood it, it was a third or
I object to Governor Timmy's notion that any neighborhood should use
Neighborhood Revitalization Program funds for paying police officers. The point
of NRP is to improve our neighborhoods and accomplishing that goal is likely to
reduce demand (read crime) for law enforcement (read supply).
Michael Atherton writes:
By implication, I suppose that Mr. Kahn is also opposed
to subsidizing the salaries of Minneapolis Public School
employees. Something that the NRP has been doing at
Pratt Elementary School, for what I believe is, more than
two years. I would suggest that the city can
Thanks for sharing the info below, Barb. Many folks in my neighborhood
previously served at Pratt Community Education Center, Luxton Park, and Good
Samaritan Home were very concerned. I hope they find a way to keep the only
bookmobile in our fair city running for those folks and others
I actually listen to KBEM quite a bit. When I'm not otherwise occupied,
I'll listen to the Bluegrass Saturday Morning Show, because it is about the
only way to hear this sort of music on a regular basis. I listen to the usual
jazz formats as well. What I do not hear, except on the rare
Schools be operating a radiostation?
Date: Sunday, January 2, 2005 2:24:07 PM
From: WJKAHN
To: mpls@mnforum.org
I actually listen to KBEM quite a bit. When I'm not otherwise occupied,
I'll listen to the Bluegrass Saturday Morning Show, because it is about the
only way to hear this sort
I haven't looked into PRT in years, but the consensus of city planning
and transportation folks whom I know considered it a potential eyesore with
promising control technology. I guess I still have to agree, even though I had
the PRT fever for a while and perhaps still do. My main problem
Allen Graetz's comparison of a PRT vehicle to luggage at the Denver
International Airport may have detracted a bit from the rest of his argument;
when you can program a suitcase as PRT cars are to be by the users in a working
system, that comparison would be valid. I suspect that I'd be
David Shove writes:
I am for giant slingshots. You the traveller step into the pocket, both
are drawn back back back, aimed in the general direction of the
destination, and FWUPP!! you're on your way! You fly out of downtown Mpls
in no time at all, far over those poor slobs on 35W. You laugh your
Bill Kahn wrote the following in response to an Ed Felien post:
Now the evolution of species through adaptation in the process of Natural
Selection is of overwhelming interest to me and a much better angle to view
government of human beings, corrupt or not. The species we are interested in
A commentary piece from Irin Nathenson in the Star Tribune on a Gilded Age
charter amendment can be found at:
http://www.startribune.com/stories/1519/5183405.html
Bill Kahn
Wrong again in Prospect Park (about Mpls home rule or charter city status)
REMINDERS:
1. Think a member has violated the
I've got to agree that ceding Mpls Parks land in any fashion is not
good.
We've got a similar situation brewing at East River Flats Park,
adjacent to the U of MN Health Campus. They are poised to let the U take over a
great
deal of that park at the old Centennial Showboat Landing
Liz Wielinski writes:
The land for the boathouse at the old Riverboat site has come up at
Park Board meetings and I think they are still negotiating. The last I
had heard was that it would include some staff hours from the U of
M to address some gardening needs for the MPRB. I think this
I gave up participating in my neighborhood's Minneapolis Parks
sponsored Earth Day event years ago, not because I think it is a bad thing, but
because I felt a more targeted approach was a better way to go. Prospect Park
is on
east side of the gorge, much of it on glacial till over
Steve Brandt makes a good point about local coverage in the Star
Tribune. Perhaps it is growing pains. Born and raised in Los Angeles, local
coverage
had a different meaning to me in a city with several millions of folks and a
circulation much greater than most papers in the country.
Whether you attribute lies, damn lies, and statistics to Lord Byron
or, like me, make the common mistake of attribution to Mark Twain, who wrote
something derivative of it, Steve Cross is correct in saying that the
achievement gap is largely a societal problem. Michael Atherton makes some
I have a love/hate relationship with NRP. Like some friends, relatives,
aquaintances, and a few other strange folks (perhaps like Bob Johnson); I feel
that NRP added more layers to our government, duplicated some efforts, and
made for some relatively wasteful efforts. What do you expect
This is my last on this particular topic (sorry Doug; I really thought that I
was through).
Michael Atherton says:
The problem is that Mr. Cross and others will try to use
this to discredit my position to maintain the status quo.
I suppose that I would be considered in the above quote under
Steve Cross writes this:
Scientists say that physics operated differently for about the first
second of the Big Bang. The heat and pressure were so extreme that
everything operated differently than it has ever since. It's long been
my theory about money in huge quantities. That is, when
While I attended this event, what substance I absorbed was through the
filter of a bad cold. My candidate announced he was dropping out and I was
cast adrift to choose among a pool of the other exceptional folks left running
for the council seat in Ward 2. I'm glad the mayoral debate is
Steve Cross writes:
I would suggest that your question is best addressed not to the general
public but, rather, to Bill Svrluga himself. He is the candidate for
council affected by your question but is not named in your post. Ask
him, directly, does he recognize that there might come a time
I'm glad Dottie Titus' proposed NRP resolution elicited the notion of a
charter amendment; having a neighborhood approach to city government built
into the charter effectively addresses, but doesn't eliminate, some of the
concern about duplication and waste in programs. Let alone the
David Finke writes:
I was curious about the identity of the anonymous group.
Could you let us know? I've run across several versions
of IRV, some fair, some resulting in distortions of electoral
outcomes as bad or worse than what we have now. It seems the
resolution is dangerously vague in not
Ken Bearman writes:
A concise, clear explanation showing how IRV works is at the beginning of
the page at http://www.fairvotemn.org/resources/tools/irvprimer_11142002.html ,
followed by a brief discussion of its merits and how it fits in Minnesota.
Bill Kahn adds:
And for a general primer on
My first and last ward endorsing convention put me off a bit. I can't
remember the number of ballots (few), but I do remember what happened between
last two votes: An assistant to the incumbent CP handed her cell phone to the
lowest vote getter, he listened to it, then proceeded to throw
Eva Young writes:
This IRV idea for local party conventions sounds rather wacky to me. It's
much more difficult for tellers to count votes with an IRV situation than
counting for traditional ballots without the rankings. There's also much
more room for counting errors.
Bill Kahn, confused as
Loki Anderson writes:
I wonder if anyone has thought about proposing a
resolution to vote on at the Ward 2 DFL convention
opposing the Prospect Park-East River Road Improvement
Association's discriminatory membership practices. I
think it would be entirely appropriate for the party
to go on
For those with nothing better to do, HF1174 is the last thing up at the
following committee meeting:
WEDNESDAY, March 16, 2005
12:30 PM
Meeting Time Note: If necessary, the Committee will recess and
reconvene at 4:30pm in Rm 500 South to complete the agenda.
Committee: Local Government
Room: 10
Ya know, perhaps these 3'x3' stations are meant to be part of the upper
levels of new or retrofitted buildings along Lake Street? I can see these
supplementing the larger and more conventional stations I remember from Ed
Anderson's
PRT concept that I remember from years ago. I can even see
Much has been said in past exchanges on the list about the effects of IRV on
plurality victories; a victory is a victory says many a party stalwort (did
I spell that right; I wouldn't want to be accused of describing some sort of
partisan plant of some type), but with IRV, a victor of
David Finke Respectfully writes:
I don't care about the poster's spelling or grammar but I do
take strong issue with his faulty reasoning.
We can argue the risks and benefits of the various versions of
IRV on their merits but casting aspersions upon someone taking an
opposing position
Ya know, when I throw out a hairbrained solution to stadiums on the
Mississippi River, they are usually workable, i.e., method in madness. When
this issue
came up the last time, I suggested a DeLaSalle football field on a barge or
perhaps several barges. David Shove suggests that one be built
Michael Atherton wrote:
The Children's Museum
moved to St. Paul.
Bill Kahn corrects:
The Children's Museum has always been in St. Paul near Como Park. It moved
from Bandana Square where my niece and I frequently loitered in the Habitot,
to Downtown where it is much more convenient for those
John Edwards was certainly right when he talked about two Americas, but I
don't think he defined them correctly. There is the United States of Delusion
that corresponds roughly to Red states, and then there are the United States
of
America, or reality if you prefer. Doubtless there are some
Ya know I wasn't going to weigh in on this again even though the start of the
ban in Minneapolis makes it a current list topic again, but this notion of
smokers as minorities irks me. I won't get into the interesting historical and
behavioral angle highlighted in the exchanges of Michael
Thanks to Jim Graham for addressing Michael Atherton's latest PPERRIA NRP
screed, but I feel that I should, at the risk of being corrected again, point
out
that the primary issue on which Atherton entered the realm of PPERRIA was a
property tax assessment for most of the cost of a Phase I
Michael Atherton writes of my apology:
Oh? I wasn't aware of it. Is it on the List?
Bill Kahn replies:
Yes, it was on the list. Michael must have missed it; perhaps because of some
filter to his perception and/or memory of the list contents or because it was
a post script to a post
Jim Graham writes:
Stranger forcible rape is one of the most heinous of all crimes for human
kind. It robs women of the security to act as free human beings. It robs a
woman of a normal fear free life for years afterward, and it robs all her
acquaintances and women family members of that same
It may be of interest to those who came in late, that the rape topic
originally came up when a member suggested that the smoking ban would result in
more
cases of sexual assaults on women smokers who he posited would leave their
drinks unattended to go for a smoking break thus making it easier
Michael Atherton states:
As for theories of evolutionary basis for rape, I think
that the case is overstated. If given the opportunity,
some men will participate in forced intercourse, but many,
if not most, will not. Very few men are predatory rapists.
I also think that the rape statistics
Dean Carlson writes:
Coleman's article also highlighted another absurdity with
stormwatergate and that is the information on how to reduce the amount
of drainage from your lot. The information is appropriate for a
developer of a new subdivision or a large lot apartment building but
I'm sorry, an
I was reworking a post that was rejected from the list but copied to Jim
Graham when I got this latest response from to it posted to the list. My post
WAS
fairly unkind to both Mr. Graham and Nick Coleman, especially since I was in
substantial agreement with both of them on the Stormwatergate
Oops! Graham's posted again, the sly devil. Seems I can't match his speed and
intensity on the issues.
Bill Kahn
Prospect Park
REMINDERS:
1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If
you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL
In my posts on Stormwatergate, I mischaracterized those writings of Jim
Graham and Nick Coleman on the topic in addition to committing an inadvertant
double negation. I also stretched the patience and credulity of the list and
list
manager in persisting on what in the context of the topic,
Pardon my poor editing again. In my apology, I should have said that my
attacks on Coleman and Graham related to the storm water topic constituted a
Straw
Man fallacy. And here's some more.
Given that we haven't heard much from municipal government on this topic,
presumably folks there are
Mark Snyder has made some pretty darn good points. Although I still think the
City of Minneapolis must look far closer into the geology and hydrology of
various properties here than they apparently did in planning the new fees and
must also be more proactive in providing help to residents to
Aside from the shock and pleasure that comes with my agreement with certain
folks on the list with whom I don't normally agree, it seems like we've not
tread any new ground in any of these exchanges. I'd like to explore just how
Minneapolis can legally declare certain areas of the city as
Becca Vargo Daggett writes:
Can we stick with optical scanners and use IRV?
My understanding is that San Francisco had significant problems
implementing IRV because of voting machine and paper audit trail issues.
Bill Kahn responds:
Up until recently, most California counties used the infamous
Dan McGrath says:
Electric cars still have to get their power from *somewhere* Right now,
that's nuclear and coal power. Adding another huge consumer of electricity
to our outdated grid would mean we have to build another power plant, and
all the greenies who want electric cars would have
As a DFL delagate to the city convention this Saturday and a long time Sierra
Club member (although I have found it difficult to support state and local
chapter positions at times; this doesn't help), I found Ken Bradley's long and
poorly edited insinuation about Peter McLauglin's campaign
I woke up around 2:30 a.m., the usual time for me, and did my best to get a
bit more sleep. I gave up at around 4:30, showered, shaved, ate my only meal
until around 7 p.m., drank coffee, read stuff, gathered my stuff, walked the
couple of miles to Augsburg College, and arrived shortly after 8
The problem in voting with your feet as opposed to various ballot forms,
hand, or voice votes is that they so often wind up in your mouth.
Bill Kahn
Prospect Park
REMINDERS:
1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If
you think a member is in violation,
I don't know about Jim Graham's Mpls stadium casino, but I was thinking that
we should have Minneapolis Skyway Slots maintained by the MN State Lottery
from a downtown skyway storefront office. We could have slots near all the
hotels on the skyway and perhaps even the Twins stadium, should that
You know when all this hoopla over opening HOV lanes for a fee came up, I
suggested via the Strib that it be done by lottery; of course they never
published it. I still think the MN Pass program would be much better as a
lottery.
Bill Kahn
Prospect Park
REMINDERS:
1. Be civil! Please read the
To drive home Randall Cutting's point:
PB2-19. Parades, entertainments, public meetings, etc. Bands, processions,
parades, military displays, entertainments, exhibitions, public meetings and
constitutionally protected expressions shall be allowed, given or held in the
parks subject to the
In regard to Jason C. Stone's comments regarding free speech in public
hearings of the MPRB, the ordinance section (from Chap. 2) that I cited (and
Scott
Vreeland as well I see in reading back on this topic) would be irrelevant; that
chapter addresses activities in the parks. Open meetings of
Apologies if I missed it in the Stone/Gurban blizzard, but can someone post
the Park Board's permitting policy for campaigns (helpfully referred to in
Craig Cox's insta-report today...)?
This would be a useful document for further list discussion ...
David Brauer
List manager
It certainly
I haven't given up yet on trying to find documents outlining MPRB policy and
rules regarding political campaigning and/or free speech. I have a call in to
Walt Dziezic whose voice mail message tells you how to spell his name. I
talked to a courteous receptionist at the MPRB office who drew the
Last night I finally got the '01 MPRB approved policy on constitutionally
protected speech at the MPRB meeting, and I am less certain of the
unconstitutionality of the document than I was before I was able to read it
(always the
main issue for me). I can't help but think that if the regulation
Thanks to Annie Young for raising this issue to MPRB and staff, for
correcting me on Vivian Mason's motion regarding John Gurban, and for another
example
of why I never volunteer to take minutes except in dire circumstances.
Having said that, I can't readily agree with Dann Dobson about the
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