Re: [music-dsp] Book: The Art of VA Filter Design 2.1.0

[Vadim Zavalishin]

On 01-Nov-18 16:16, Fabian-Robert Stöter wrote:
I appreciate that but it would still be nice if your book could be cited 
appropriately. Have you thought about putting it on arxiv or zenodo.org 
?
This would give you the possibility to version the book and make folks 
from academia happy with a proper DOI reference.


Nobody complained so far, but I will consider your suggestion, thank you!

Best regards,
Vadim

--
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Reaktor Application Architect
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+49-30-611035-0

www.native-instruments.com
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Re: [music-dsp] Book: The Art of VA Filter Design 2.1.0

[Vadim Zavalishin]

On 02-Nov-18 03:06, Andrew Simper wrote:
If you prize symmetry then you can use a cascade with 2 x one pole HP 
and 2 x one pole LP to make a 4 pole BP (band pass) then you can use the 
same old FIR based output tap mixing to generate all the different 
responses. It may not be so easy to do in a real circuit, but in 
software we're not bound by what is easy to build :)


https://cytomic.com/files/dsp/cascade-all-to-all-responses.pdf


Symmetry is one of the things. The other is the shape of the amplitude 
response. I'm personally not convinced by the -4dB dip prior to the 
resonance, although YMMV. At any rate it doesn't qualify as a "bread and 
butter" LP IMHO ;) With BP8 it's getting way worse.


Incidentally, another way to come at more or less the same structure is 
raising the orders of LP and HP filters (by stacking identical 1-poles 
in series) in the transposed Sallen-Key (Fig.5.23 of the book). Since 
TSK is essentially a bandpass ladder with a special output mode, it's 
actually the same. Further ways (originating at lowpass ladder) to look 
at this can be found here:

https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6844369#p6844369
and here
https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6844470#p6844470


Regards,
Vadim

--
Vadim Zavalishin
Reaktor Application Architect
Native Instruments GmbH
+49-30-611035-0

www.native-instruments.com
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Re: [music-dsp] Book: The Art of VA Filter Design 2.1.0

[Andrew Simper]

On Thu, 1 Nov 2018 at 16:24, Vadim Zavalishin <
vadim.zavalis...@native-instruments.de> wrote:

> On 31-Oct-18 18:19, Stefan Stenzel wrote:
> > Vadim,
> >
> > I was more refering to the analog multimode filter based on the moog
> cascade I did some years ago, and found it amusing to find a warning
> against it.
>
> Ah, you mean the one at the beginning of Section 5.5? Well, that's an
> artifact of the older revision 1, where the ladder filter was introduced
> before the SVF (I still believe it's better didactically, unfortunately
> new material dependencies made me switch the order). The modal mixtures
> of the transistor ladder are asymmetric (HP is not symmetric to LP and
> has the resonance peak kind of "in the middle of its slope" and BP is
> not symmetric on its own). I felt that it might be confusing for a
> beginner if their first encounter with resonating HP and BP is with this
> kind of special-looking filters, hence the warning. With revision 2 this
> warning becomes less important, since the 2-pole LP and BP were
> discussed already before, but I still believe it's informative. After
> all, it doesn't say that these filters are bad, it says that they are
> special ;)
>
>
If you prize symmetry then you can use a cascade with 2 x one pole HP and 2
x one pole LP to make a 4 pole BP (band pass) then you can use the same old
FIR based output tap mixing to generate all the different responses. It may
not be so easy to do in a real circuit, but in software we're not bound by
what is easy to build :)

https://cytomic.com/files/dsp/cascade-all-to-all-responses.pdf


>
> > Anyway, excellent writeup,
>
> Thank you! I'm glad my book is appreciated not only by newbies, but also
> by the industry experts.
>
>
> > I wish I cuold have it printed as a proper book for more relaxed reading.
>
> Hmmm, 500 A4 pages would be rather heavy ;)
>
> Vadim
>
>
Stefan: This sounds like the prefect excuse to get a HiDPI tablet to store
and read all your PDFs, much lighter actual books and easier to search :)

I've gone paper free now and write notes in PDF format and annotate
directly on published papers in PDF format, which is great since it's
easier to find things and it's all backed up. I lost a paper notebook and
was always losing conference papers I printed out and annotated, which is
quite frustrating. Digital has it's own challenges, but overall I'm happy
with the move and love that everything is backed.

Cheers,

Andy
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Re: [music-dsp] Book: The Art of VA Filter Design 2.1.0

[paula]

5 copies works out at £25 each :)

On 2018-11-01 17:18, pa...@synth.net wrote:

FWIW, I found somewhere you can get printed copies of PDFs bound in a
hardback for £40 + postage :)

Paula

On 2018-11-01 16:09, pa...@synth.net wrote:
You could also do a kickstarter, like the push turn move and 
patch books?

Or just self publish, where they print say 5 books and sell them, when
they drop below 2 they print a few more.

Just some random thoughts, but I will probably find somewhere I can
get it printed/bound :)

Paula

On 2018-11-01 15:04, Vadim Zavalishin wrote:

On 01-Nov-18 15:18, pa...@synth.net wrote:



Hmmm, 500 A4 pages would be rather heavy ;)


I'd willingly pay for a copy.


Quite pleased to hear that, thank you ;) Still, you could ask a copy
shop to print and bind a copy for yourself (the book license allows
it).

I have been considering selling this book for money, but so far I
don't really want to do that. One of the reasons, it'd be
prohibitively difficult to release small updates such as this one.

Best regards,
Vadim

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Re: [music-dsp] Book: The Art of VA Filter Design 2.1.0

[paula]

FWIW, I found somewhere you can get printed copies of PDFs bound in a 
hardback for £40 + postage :)


Paula

On 2018-11-01 16:09, pa...@synth.net wrote:
You could also do a kickstarter, like the push turn move and 
patch books?

Or just self publish, where they print say 5 books and sell them, when
they drop below 2 they print a few more.

Just some random thoughts, but I will probably find somewhere I can
get it printed/bound :)

Paula

On 2018-11-01 15:04, Vadim Zavalishin wrote:

On 01-Nov-18 15:18, pa...@synth.net wrote:



Hmmm, 500 A4 pages would be rather heavy ;)


I'd willingly pay for a copy.


Quite pleased to hear that, thank you ;) Still, you could ask a copy
shop to print and bind a copy for yourself (the book license allows
it).

I have been considering selling this book for money, but so far I
don't really want to do that. One of the reasons, it'd be
prohibitively difficult to release small updates such as this one.

Best regards,
Vadim

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Re: [music-dsp] Book: The Art of VA Filter Design 2.1.0

[Bjorn Roche]

This looks like an amazing resource -- I hadn't seen it before. Thanks for
sharing your knowledge!

bjorn

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 6:20 AM Vadim Zavalishin <
vadim.zavalis...@native-instruments.de> wrote:

> Announcing a small update to the book
>
>
> https://www.native-instruments.com/fileadmin/ni_media/downloads/pdf/VAFilterDesign_2.1.0.pdf
>
> New additions:
> - Generalized ladder filters
> - Elliptic filters of order 2^N
> - Steepness estimation of elliptic shelving filters
>
> Regards,
> Vadim
>
> --
> Vadim Zavalishin
> Reaktor Application Architect
> Native Instruments GmbH
> +49-30-611035-0
>
> www.native-instruments.com
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>

-- 
-
Bjorn Roche
bjornroche.com
@bjornroche
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Re: [music-dsp] Book: The Art of VA Filter Design 2.1.0

[paula]

You could also do a kickstarter, like the push turn move and patch 
books?
Or just self publish, where they print say 5 books and sell them, when 
they drop below 2 they print a few more.


Just some random thoughts, but I will probably find somewhere I can get 
it printed/bound :)


Paula

On 2018-11-01 15:04, Vadim Zavalishin wrote:

On 01-Nov-18 15:18, pa...@synth.net wrote:



Hmmm, 500 A4 pages would be rather heavy ;)


I'd willingly pay for a copy.


Quite pleased to hear that, thank you ;) Still, you could ask a copy
shop to print and bind a copy for yourself (the book license allows
it).

I have been considering selling this book for money, but so far I
don't really want to do that. One of the reasons, it'd be
prohibitively difficult to release small updates such as this one.

Best regards,
Vadim

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Re: [music-dsp] Book: The Art of VA Filter Design 2.1.0

[Fabian-Robert Stöter]

Hi Vadim,

This is a really valuable resource for many of us.

> On 1 Nov 2018, at 16:04, Vadim Zavalishin 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have been considering selling this book for money, but so far I don't 
> really want to do that. One of the reasons, it'd be prohibitively difficult 
> to release small updates such as this one.

I appreciate that but it would still be nice if your book could be cited 
appropriately. Have you thought about putting it on arxiv or zenodo.org? 
This would give you the possibility to version the book and make folks from 
academia happy with a proper DOI reference.

Best
Fabian

—
Fabian-Robert Stöter

INRIA and LIRMM
Campus Saint-Priest - Bâtiment 5
860 rue de St Priest
34392 Montpellier Cedex 5 France
https://faroit.com
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Re: [music-dsp] Book: The Art of VA Filter Design 2.1.0

[Vadim Zavalishin]

On 01-Nov-18 15:18, pa...@synth.net wrote:



Hmmm, 500 A4 pages would be rather heavy ;)


I'd willingly pay for a copy.


Quite pleased to hear that, thank you ;) Still, you could ask a copy 
shop to print and bind a copy for yourself (the book license allows it).


I have been considering selling this book for money, but so far I don't 
really want to do that. One of the reasons, it'd be prohibitively 
difficult to release small updates such as this one.


Best regards,
Vadim

--
Vadim Zavalishin
Reaktor Application Architect
Native Instruments GmbH
+49-30-611035-0

www.native-instruments.com
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Re: [music-dsp] Book: The Art of VA Filter Design 2.1.0

[paula]

Hmmm, 500 A4 pages would be rather heavy ;)


I'd willingly pay for a copy.

Consider how thick books like "The art of electronics" by Horowitz and 
Hill is? (just over 1100 pages).

It's well worth its size and weight (quite literally) :)

Paula
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Re: [music-dsp] Book: The Art of VA Filter Design 2.1.0

[Vadim Zavalishin]

On 31-Oct-18 18:19, Stefan Stenzel wrote:

Vadim,

I was more refering to the analog multimode filter based on the moog cascade I 
did some years ago, and found it amusing to find a warning against it.


Ah, you mean the one at the beginning of Section 5.5? Well, that's an 
artifact of the older revision 1, where the ladder filter was introduced 
before the SVF (I still believe it's better didactically, unfortunately 
new material dependencies made me switch the order). The modal mixtures 
of the transistor ladder are asymmetric (HP is not symmetric to LP and 
has the resonance peak kind of "in the middle of its slope" and BP is 
not symmetric on its own). I felt that it might be confusing for a 
beginner if their first encounter with resonating HP and BP is with this 
kind of special-looking filters, hence the warning. With revision 2 this 
warning becomes less important, since the 2-pole LP and BP were 
discussed already before, but I still believe it's informative. After 
all, it doesn't say that these filters are bad, it says that they are 
special ;)




Anyway, excellent writeup,


Thank you! I'm glad my book is appreciated not only by newbies, but also 
by the industry experts.




I wish I cuold have it printed as a proper book for more relaxed reading.


Hmmm, 500 A4 pages would be rather heavy ;)

Vadim

--
Vadim Zavalishin
Reaktor Application Architect
Native Instruments GmbH
+49-30-611035-0

www.native-instruments.com
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Re: [music-dsp] Book: The Art of VA Filter Design 2.1.0

[Stefan Stenzel]

Vadim,

I was more refering to the analog multimode filter based on the moog cascade I 
did some years ago, and found it amusing to find a warning against it.

Anyway, excellent writeup, I wish I cuold have it printed as a proper book for 
more relaxed reading.

Stefan


> On 31. Oct 2018, at 16:29 , Vadim Zavalishin 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 31-Oct-18 15:58, Stefan Stenzel wrote:
>> Thank you very much, Sir!
> 
> You're highly welcome, Sir!
> 
>> But why the warning about multimode lattice filters?
>> In my case, this comes way too late!
> 
> I'm not sure I'm fully following you... Or are you referring to this:
> 
>>> New additions:
>>> - Generalized ladder filters
> 
> You mean, why isn't this discussed in Chapter 5? Well, good question. But in 
> the same sense, one could ask why generalized SVF doesn't come in Chapter 4. 
> Chapter 8 is specifically concerned with building filters with arbitrary 
> transfer functions of arbitrary orders, whereas Chapters 4 and 5 rather deal 
> with structures commonly used in synths (more or less), and from this POV it 
> belongs there. Also, had I discussed it in Chapter 5, it would have been 
> difficult to derive it from the generalized SVF idea, which in my opinion is 
> highly educative.
> 
> Actually, are you by any chance aware of this structure being discussed 
> elsewhere? Haven't encountered anything like that so far (not that it's 
> difficult to derive ;) ), just wanted to build a nonlinear 2nd kind 
> Butterworth filter of 4th order, so needed something like that ;)
> 
> Best regards,
> Vadim
> 
> -- 
> Vadim Zavalishin
> Reaktor Application Architect
> Native Instruments GmbH
> +49-30-611035-0
> 
> www.native-instruments.com
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Re: [music-dsp] Book: The Art of VA Filter Design 2.1.0

[Vadim Zavalishin]

On 31-Oct-18 15:58, Stefan Stenzel wrote:

Thank you very much, Sir!


You're highly welcome, Sir!



But why the warning about multimode lattice filters?
In my case, this comes way too late!


I'm not sure I'm fully following you... Or are you referring to this:


New additions:
- Generalized ladder filters


You mean, why isn't this discussed in Chapter 5? Well, good question. 
But in the same sense, one could ask why generalized SVF doesn't come in 
Chapter 4. Chapter 8 is specifically concerned with building filters 
with arbitrary transfer functions of arbitrary orders, whereas Chapters 
4 and 5 rather deal with structures commonly used in synths (more or 
less), and from this POV it belongs there. Also, had I discussed it in 
Chapter 5, it would have been difficult to derive it from the 
generalized SVF idea, which in my opinion is highly educative.


Actually, are you by any chance aware of this structure being discussed 
elsewhere? Haven't encountered anything like that so far (not that it's 
difficult to derive ;) ), just wanted to build a nonlinear 2nd kind 
Butterworth filter of 4th order, so needed something like that ;)


Best regards,
Vadim

--
Vadim Zavalishin
Reaktor Application Architect
Native Instruments GmbH
+49-30-611035-0

www.native-instruments.com
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Re: [music-dsp] Book: The Art of VA Filter Design 2.1.0

[Stefan Stenzel]

Thank you very much, Sir!

But why the warning about multimode lattice filters?
In my case, this comes way too late!

Stefan


> On 31. Oct 2018, at 11:19 , Vadim Zavalishin 
>  wrote:
> 
> Announcing a small update to the book
> 
> https://www.native-instruments.com/fileadmin/ni_media/downloads/pdf/VAFilterDesign_2.1.0.pdf
> 
> New additions:
> - Generalized ladder filters
> - Elliptic filters of order 2^N
> - Steepness estimation of elliptic shelving filters
> 
> Regards,
> Vadim
> 
> -- 
> Vadim Zavalishin
> Reaktor Application Architect
> Native Instruments GmbH
> +49-30-611035-0
> 
> www.native-instruments.com
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> dupswapdrop: music-dsp mailing list
> music-dsp@music.columbia.edu
> https://lists.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp
> 

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