Re: Having problems with POP3 setup

2022-09-06 Thread Mark H. Wood
> On Sat, Sep 03, 2022 at 05:35:31PM -0500, x...@trimaso.com.mx wrote:
> 
> > What's the current panorama for POP3 nowadays? Is it still used or is it
> > dying? I heard Yahoo dropped POP3 support since years ago, except for paid
> > users...
> > 
> > Thanks again.

Yahoo! can't drop POP3 until they get their IMAP service to stop going
wonky for weeks at a time.

-- 
Mark H. Wood
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University Library
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Re: Is linewrap dead?

2022-09-01 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Wed, Aug 31, 2022 at 06:35:15PM -0500, Derek Martin wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 31, 2022 at 04:38:11PM -0400, John Hawkinson wrote:
> > (b) Even if recipients *do* rotate, they will still have the
> > subconscious/psychological result that "Dealing with Derek's emails
> > takes more work, he is annoying."
> 
> That, arguably, would be my problem, but in 33 years of using e-mail,
> has never been.  Not once.  Not because of the way I format e-mail, at
> any rate... =8^)

This does happen, but I beg to point out that it happens *both* ways.
From my POV, when someone uses one of those MUAs that think a
paragraph and a line are the same thing, that person's emails make
more work for me, and I find the person annoying.

"More work" means, for example, that if I try to quote such a
"paragraph", and I touch it at all, emacs re-wraps it without
inserting the necessary additional quotation brokets and I have to add
them by hand.  There's probably a way to fix that, but I can't be
bothered to rotate, I mean, adjust it.

So this sword really does cut both ways.

--
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
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Re: Is linewrap dead?

2022-09-01 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Wed, Aug 31, 2022 at 02:48:55PM -0500, Derek Martin wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 31, 2022 at 01:46:49PM -0400, John Hawkinson wrote:
> > As for standards-compliance, that's a red herring. Long lines are
> > not going to trip up any modern client, they're just not.
> 
> It may be less relevant today, but it's still relevant.  While the
> original reason for the standard was that the myriad of clients would
> display long lines improperly or not at all, these days it's not
> really about clients.  Sendmail truncates lines at 998 characters.  It
> is not alone.
> 
> [It's conceivable this has become untrue since last I checked, but I
> doubt it, and assuming so is not wise.  Besides which, I'd be shocked
> to discover that all internet sites are on the most modern versions of
> their MTAs. It just doesn't happen.]

Indeed, it is the MTAs, not the MUAs, that will balk at looong lines.
Exim OOTB (at least, on Gentoo) is configured to be quite unforgiving
about it.

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
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Re: Having problems with POP3 setup

2022-08-30 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Mon, Aug 29, 2022 at 03:14:21PM -0500, X Tec wrote:
> I think I kind of sorted the "not a mailbox" issues: each mailbox seems to 
> have its own defined directory tree, which will give the aforementioned error 
> if not found, or will alternatively be created but only when the mailbox is 
> really being used for the first time.
> So I had to do this: mkdir -p $HOME/mutt/mail/{inbox,sent,trash}/{cur,new,tmp}

Yes, that's the Maildir structure.

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
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755 W. Michigan Street
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Re: vs. / vs.

2022-03-24 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 06:23:19PM -0400, Kurt Hackenberg wrote:
> Procmail is badly outdated, and it's a zombie, unmaintained for many 
> years. I suggest that you consider some other delivery agent. The 
> program fdm looks promising, though I haven't used it.

I'll agree with another poster:  if a thing still works, age is not
sufficient reason to throw it away.

That said:  I used procmail for some years, but switched to maildrop
because I found it quite a bit easier to configure -- and I have a lot
of configuration.  Worth considering if you decide to look around.
Converting the rules was tedious but not terribly difficult.

As someone else noted, sieve is also promising.  I also have not tried
it yet.

I've only just now heard of fdm, so I don't know anything against
it. :-/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fdm_(software)

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
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Re: Filter script to remove html, fullquotes and header lines

2022-03-21 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 08:46:52AM +1100, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> On 20Mar2022 13:36, Martin Trautmann  wrote:
> >do you know about any mutt script that would go from message to message 
> >and
> >
> >1) remove a html part if a plain text part is given
> >
> >2) remove all trailing lines,
> >   starting with a quote sign ">"
> >   and at least e.g. 10 occurences
> >
> >  such as (^>[.*][\r\n]){9,} before the end of the message
> >
> >  Maybe I could append xzxzxzx to the end of the message first, delete 
> >a fullquote up to there and remove xzxzxzx again?
> >
> >  Bonus: Do not remove fullquotes for messages without in-reply-to or 
> >references headers.
> >
> >3) remove header lines which are longer than 5 lines
> >
> >I want to shrink the size of some mailboxes for archive purposes, 
> >without throwing away too much.
> 
> I think you'll have to write your own.
> 
> At minimum you need a full mail message parser so that you are not 
> filtering, say, base64 or QP content incorrectly. So something which 
> scans a mailbox and for each message:
> - decodes it completely
> - applies your filters
> - assembles the new message
> and write this out to a new mailbox (so it isn't destructive and can be 
> compared to the original - you don't want to accidentally shred your 
> archive).

If you want to offload some of the work to existing code, you might
look at things like GNU mailutils, or the tools that come with
maildrop, or some of the subcommands of https://github.com/djcb/mu

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
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Re: A bit off-topic: problems with sending to a Gmail user

2022-03-11 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 11:43:53AM +0100, Matthias Apitz wrote:
> I know, it's not the fault of our beloved mutt, but maybe someone is or
> was in the same problem and knows a solution...
> 
> We (my family) are member of a fisherman association and I have to send
> mails to one of the head members in charge for youth training. He has a
> Google mail account as  and any mail gets rejected by
> Google with the response below.

I've been seeing a lot of that lately.  Google seem to have tightened
their email security practice recently.

It appears that 1blu is doing something that GMail doesn't like.  They
probably have a number of users who have the same problem.  I would
ask them to check their MTA configuration against the section "Make
sure your messages are authenticated" in the referenced page
(https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126#authentication).

> - Forwarded message from Mail Delivery System 
>  -
> 
> Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 18:48:05 +0100
> From: Mail Delivery System 
> To: g...@unixarea.de
> Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender
> 
> This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.
> 
> A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
> recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:
> 
>   xxx@gmail.com
> host gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com [74.125.133.26]
> SMTP error from remote mail server after pipelined end of data:
> 550-5.7.26 This message does not have authentication information or fails 
> to
> 550-5.7.26 pass authentication checks. To best protect our users from 
> spam, the
> 550-5.7.26 message has been blocked. Please visit
> 550-5.7.26  https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126#authentication 
> for more
> 550 5.7.26 information. 
> x6-20020a7bc20600b003826d797674si3455029wmi.29 - gsmtp
> 
> Reporting-MTA: dns; ms-10.1blu.de
> 
> Action: failed
> Final-Recipient: rfc822;xxx@gmail.com
> Status: 5.0.0
> Remote-MTA: dns; gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com
> Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550-5.7.26 This message does not have authentication 
> information or fails to
>  550-5.7.26 pass authentication checks. To best protect our users from spam, 
> the
>  550-5.7.26 message has been blocked. Please visit
>  550-5.7.26  https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126#authentication for 
> more
>  550 5.7.26 information. x6-20020a7bc20600b003826d797674si3455029wmi.29 - 
> gsmtp
> 
> Return-path: 
> Received: from [188.174.56.186] (helo=fritz.box)
>   by ms-10.1blu.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
>   (Exim 4.90_1)
>   (envelope-from )
>   id 1nSMtR-00015i-BW
>   for xxx@gmail.com; Thu, 10 Mar 2022 18:48:05 +0100
> Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 17:48:04 +
> From: Matthias Apitz 
> Reply-To: Matthias Apitz 
> To: xxx yyy 
> Subject: Fwd: Re: Jugendfischen 2022
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> Message-ID: 
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> X-Con-Id: 51246
> X-Con-U: 0-guru
> 
> 
> 
> - End forwarded message -
> 
> -- 
> Matthias Apitz, ✉ g...@unixarea.de, http://www.unixarea.de/ +49-176-38902045
> Public GnuPG key: http://www.unixarea.de/key.pub
> 

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
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Re: Binding the pad-Enter key?

2021-09-28 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 11:12:42AM -0700, Kevin J. McCarthy wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 12:48:11PM -0400, Mark H. Wood wrote:
> >I wanted to bind the Enter key on the numeric pad so that it works the
> >same way as the Enter on the main key grid.  I entered ":exec
> >what-key", hit pad-Enter, and was told that it is "Char = , Octal
> >= 527, Decimal = 343".  So I entered ":bind generic 
> >select-entry", got no error back, but pressing pad-Enter still results
> >in "Key is not bound.  Press '?' for help."
> >
> >What am I missing?
> 
> First, make sure you aren't hitting the pad-Enter key in the index - try 
> it somewhere else, such as the query menu or alias menu.
> 
> The index had a bug (now fixed in git master) where it would display the 
> "key is not bound" message when trying to invoke , because 
>  is not actually implemented in the index.
> 
> If that fixes it, then also add
>bind index  display-message
> to your muttrc.

That worked!  Thanks!

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
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Binding the pad-Enter key?

2021-09-27 Thread Mark H. Wood
I wanted to bind the Enter key on the numeric pad so that it works the
same way as the Enter on the main key grid.  I entered ":exec
what-key", hit pad-Enter, and was told that it is "Char = , Octal
= 527, Decimal = 343".  So I entered ":bind generic 
select-entry", got no error back, but pressing pad-Enter still results
in "Key is not bound.  Press '?' for help."

What am I missing?

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
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Re: Is there any way to print attachments such as PDF files?

2021-04-19 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 01:02:39PM -0600, Paul Gilmartin via Mutt-users wrote:
> On 2021-04-16, at 12:28:17, Chris Green wrote:
> > 
> > As per subject, is there any easy way to print attachments such as PDF
> > files?  Hitting 'p' against an attachment just says "I don't know how
> > to print that".  Is there any way to tell mutt how to print it which
> > will also allow printing of plain text as normal.
> >  
> Can mailcap entries handle that, or is mailcap solely for viewing?
> Is there a PDF viewer with a Print command?

From my ~/.mailcap:

application/pdf; \
/usr/bin/atril %s; \
description=Portable Document Format document; \
test=test $DISPLAY; \
nametemplate=%s.pdf; \
print=/usr/bin/lpr %s;

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
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Re: Are there any good maildir manipulation utilities out there?

2021-04-08 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Wed, Apr 07, 2021 at 10:01:22PM +0100, Chris Green wrote:
> I'm looking for a tool which will allow me to search through a large
> hierarchy of maildir messages and then provide actions to take on the
> matched messages.
> 
> E.g. I might want to archive all messages older than a certain date
> but archive them into a similar hierarchy rather than to just a single
> archive directory.
> 
> Or I might want to search for all messages from a certain person (or
> business) and move them into a single folder.
> 
> I already use mairix for searching for messages but it doesn't offer
> the actions function I'm after.  

Have you looked at 'mu':

https://www.djcbsoftware.nl/code/mu/

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
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Re: simple formatting possibilities

2020-08-31 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 07:32:03PM -0600, Akkana Peck wrote:
> Derek Martin writes:
> > Your only option for this which would have widespread support would
> > be HTML.  It is *possible* to generate such messages and send them
> > with Mutt.  It's just not very easy or user-friendly.
> 
> I agree (and the thread you reference is very worthwhile reading).
> But be warned that people who are used to doing everything in Word
> documents might not be as amenable to HTML as you might think.
> 
> I mean, Gmail (as well as local mailers like Thunderbird and Apple
> Mail) give you an HTML editor, so that should be a no-brainer,
> right? Right?
> 
> But a while back, I tried to get some people in a nonprofit I work
> with to accept meeting minutes in HTML rather than Word -- and it
> was a complete disaster. None of them could figure out how to edit
> the HTML file, even when it was sent inline in HTML format.
> I think the blockquotes used for quoting was messing them up.
> Or something. It's not like you can get them to explain why they're
> freaking out and saying "HOW DO I ADD MY COMMENTS?!!"

Well, yes.  I think it's helpful to keep in mind the distinction
between revisable and final formats.

Things like .docx and ODF are designed for revisable documents.
Share these when you want collaborative editing or annotation.  IMHO
these are very poor formats for distributing finalized documents.

Things like HTML and PDF are designed for finalized documents.  Share
these when you just need to disseminate a completed work.  Altering
documents in these formats is a matter for experts, and some in your
audience may not be that kind of experts.

It's easy to edit documents in a revisable format until they are
satisfactory, and then render the finished content in a final format
(or multiple final formats) for publication.

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
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Re: Inline PGP Within HTML

2020-04-30 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 05:38:24AM +0100, Dave Woodfall wrote:
> On 2020-04-28 00:20,
> David Engel  put forth the proposition:
> > On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 06:28:55PM -0500, Sven Semmler wrote:
> > > On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 09:46:48PM -0500, David Engel wrote:
> > > > I've since written a filter to preprocess the HTML and remove the
> > > > extra formatting before passing it to w3m.  The traditional PGP coming
> > > > out of w3m is now properly formatted.  Alas, Mutt doesn't recognize it
> > > > and automatically decrypt it.
> > >
> > > I wonder if you could just forward that sanitized block to yourself as
> > > plain-text ... then mutt should deal with it just fine?
> > >
> > > It would add 2-3 keystrokes and be miles away from elegant ... but if it
> > > works until you find a better solution...
> >
> > I tried that and Mutt forwards the original email in tact.  Unless
> > there's another forward command that sends the decoded text (I didn't
> > find ont), I don't think it will work.
> 
> I've never tried to work with encrypted messages via a script, but I
> hope this is helpful or gives you some ideas.
> 
> The only thing I can think of is keep trying shell scripting a
> solution that would -dump the content from stdin to text, divide the
> parts, and then maybe either pipe to less to view it (not so useful
> for replying) or email/forward it back to yourself using either the
> mutt command line, or mail/mailx + sendmail or whichever MTA you have
> handy, hopefully keeping the headers intact or add the envelope from.
> 
> Perhaps decode the encrypted part with gpg from the script, before
> forwarding it to yourself.

A couple more ideas:

'maildrop' comes with some nice tools for working with mail in
scripts.  (It's also a rather good filtering / routing / piping /
you-name-it MDA.)

Python has some nice standard library classes that are really good at
working with mailboxes (all kinds) and individual messages.

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
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Re: Going GUI...er

2020-04-29 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 06:57:14PM +0100, Sam Kuper wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 03:52:53PM -0500, Derek Martin wrote:
[snip]
> > which is how you have to define what is considerate.  Inconsiderate is
> > doing something that is not preferred.  That which is least preferred
> > is most inconsiderate.
> 
> Again, no.  You are conflating two different concepts, as shown by the
> following counterexample.  In some *urban* subcultures, driving large
> 4x4 cars is preferred:
> https://www.macmillandictionary.com/buzzword/entries/chelsea-tractor.html
> . Yet that is clearly not considerate.

I think that there is a simpler argument in here.  Abstractions (such
as The Majority) do not have preferences; individuals do.  At most, it
is possible to identify abstractions whose members share certain
preferences.

So, yes, inconsiderate is doing something that is not preferred, and
that which is least preferred is most inconsiderate.  This is simple
manners.  But I want to ask myself:  preferred by whom?  Each camp has
legitimate concerns to which, if we wish to communicate politely, the
other camps would do well to make reasonable accommodations.  Two
cultures in contact, which do not share customs and manners, can
disengage; they can fight; or they can agree on protocols that they
*will* share, even though the protocols make no sense *within* either
culture.

So how can the flat-text and rich-text and all-up-graphics cultures
play nicely together, with nobody surrendering and being subjugated by
anybody else?

--
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
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Re: Going GUI...er

2020-04-08 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Tue, Apr 07, 2020 at 09:18:37PM -0500, Derek Martin wrote:
> I've said it before--I too would love a mutt-based (or mutt-similar)
> GUI mail client.  Frankly, no matter how much I love Mutt (and you
> know I do), trying to make the case that Mutt's handling of modern,
> every-day common e-mail messages is anything but clunky and backward
> is insane.

Go ahead and call me crazy, then.  For me, Mutt's handling of modern,
every-day common e-mail messages is a feature.  It strips away all of
the distracting, intelligence-free clutter and lets me *read the
message*.  Compared to the competition, I find that use of Mutt is
much more relaxing and pleasant.

If I were condemned to use only one of those gooey-fied MUAs, I would
be working on a plugin to configure-off all of the formatting, gather
the attachments into a menu to be viewed or ignored as I choose, pop
up an "are you sure?" dialog before following links, and generally
make it more like Mutt.

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
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Re: Going GUI...er

2020-04-06 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Sat, Apr 04, 2020 at 07:18:42PM +0200, steve wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Le 04-04-2020, à 09:41:59 +0200, Vegard Svanberg a écrit :
> 
> >Hi,
> >
> >I love Mutt.
> 
> Me too.
> 
> >However, I'm increasingly finding myself having to resort to various
> >tricks to deal with HTML only emails (with picture attachments),
> >calendar invites, and other oddities and awkward stuff people send.
> 
> I can display images, read pdf's, etc… but one thing I never managed to do is
> open an html file containing images. I mean, I can send the html part to
> firefox but the images don't follow.
> 
> How do you guys cope with that?

In my ~/.mailcap:

image/gif; \
gpicview %s; \
print=lpr %s;
image/jpeg; \
gpicview %s; \
print=lpr %s;
image/png; \
gpicview %s; \
print=lpr %s;

Then open the message, hit 'v' to view the structure, select an image
and hit Enter.

This works with actual attachments.  Some emails (usuall SPAM) have
only links to images.  For those, I first read the reasonable messages
using Mutt, and then make a second pass using Thunderbird to read the
unreasonable ones that I didn't just discard in pass 1.

If the only text in a message is "you need to view this in HTML," I
typically just hit 'd'.

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
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Re: Going GUI...er

2020-04-06 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Sun, Apr 05, 2020 at 05:57:53PM -0500, Greg Marks wrote:
> I realize this isn't an answer to Vegard Svanberg's original question,
> but I think it's a point worth raising: isn't the fact that mutt is
> text-based a security feature?
> 
> Thunderbird, which I consider the second-best e-mail client, does have
> security settings to prevent it from automatically loading certain
> content that might contain exploits.  But it seems to me that mutt does
> it one better by, for example, forcing users to take extra steps to click
> on hyperlinks, which is a bit of extra defense against spear phishing.
> Indeed, by seeing the raw HTML you can avoid a malicious hyperlink that
> doesn't match the link text displayed.

This is one of my big reasons for using Mutt:  it doesn't open *any*
attachment unless and until I tell it to.  If I don't trust an
attachment, I can copy it out and use my kit of file torture tools to
extract its secrets.

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
www.ulib.iupui.edu


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Re: Rendering HTML as Markdown in mutt (was: Creating HTML emails with mutt)

2019-11-05 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Mon, Nov 04, 2019 at 08:01:29PM -0600, Derek Martin wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 01, 2019 at 12:21:15PM +1300, martin f krafft wrote:
[snip]
> > but in addition to viewing HTML messages, I (and others who have
> > added to this thread) would like a way to reply without losing the
> > formatting.
> > 
> > The viewing side isn't so hot either. Most terminal programs
> > these days can display colors, italics, bold, underline and
> > strikethrough (looks like urxvt doesn't do strikethrough and xterm
> > doesn't do underline,
> 
> Xterm most definitely does underline, though you may need to set a
> resource to make it do that. I vaguely recall that some text formats
> are rendered using colors or reverse text *by default* but can be made
> to do the more correct thing via X resources.  I just don't recall
> the specifics... But underline absolutely works, and I can provide a
> link to an image if you're not convinced, but suffice it to say, I
> just did it.  IIRC italics is the harder thing, as you have to set up
> X resources for the italics font face to use, or something like
> that... but it all works. 
> 
> Hardly anyone uses xterm these days though AFAICT, and configuring it
> properly has become a lost art.  In fact, quite a few years ago now, I
> filed a bug against xterm in some version of Fedora or even Red Hat,
> and Red Hat's support people closed the ticket, complaining that xterm
> was obsolete and no longer supported.  (!!!)

Heh, I learned years ago that my true middle name is either "nobody"
or "hardly anyone".  I've (recently!) had up to a dozen xterms going
at once (on multiple FVWM virtual desktops) shepherding large bundles
of updates on a number of servers concurrently, and tend to keep
several open in different contexts when developing.

Anyway, a good place to read up on xterm might be
https://invisible-island.net/xterm/
That version of xterm still gets updates several times a year.  xterm
is neither obsolete nor unsupported, just unloved by some distro.s.

`man xterm` has a long section under RESOURCES which describes all of
the many adjustable behaviors.  You might begin by looking at
'colorULMode'.

Sorry, I have no specific advice -- I got my xterm set up years ago
and haven't touched the settings in a long time.

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
www.ulib.iupui.edu


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Re: Creating HTML emails with mutt

2019-11-03 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Sat, Nov 02, 2019 at 12:31:29PM -0400, Patrice Levesque wrote:
> 
> > […] virtually all of the people who use mutt either as their only
> > email client or along with others, chose mutt because of its
> > simplicity.
> 
> People who want a simple text mail client will use Alpine or similar.
> Mutt's possibly the most “complicated” text MUA.
> 
> I don't use mutt because of its “simplicity”, I use it because of its
> power and flexibility.

Yes.  There is simple and then there is simple.  I choose Mutt because
I can adjust it to be simple in the ways I want it to be simple, and
sophisticated in the ways I want it to be sophisticated.  That exacts
a cost in configuration complexity which I'm quite willing to pay.

I like that Mutt presents emails simply.  It ignores all the fancy
to-the-pixel formatting, pointless images, distracting backgrounds,
and flashing multicolored nonsense.  I find that reading mail with
Mutt is more restful than with other MUAs.  Occasionally I do
encounter a message whose text/plain part says only "you must enable
HTML mail to read this message."  I interpret this as "you do not need
or want to read this message," and I happily hit "d" and move on.

I like that Mutt can be configured to handle signing and encryption
well using the tools that I use for these operations in other
contexts.

I like that Mutt gives me ready access to the structure of MIME
messages.  I like that Mutt understands me when I add an attachment,
and sets the Content-Type correctly instead of just blowing it off as
application/octet-stream.

I like that Mutt just asks me what I want to do with this funky
attachment, instead of trusting it and performing it without my
leave.  I like that Mutt makes me stop and think about following that
URL.

I like that Mutt lets me choose my editor and just accepts what I have
composed with it.  For some messages I really need EMACS.

I like that Mutt treats me as someone who takes the trouble to
understand the medium, and facilitates my use of that knowledge.

Most of that was not simple to achieve but, having achieved it, Mutt
makes sending and reading email *my way* simple for me, and that is
the simplicity which I value most highly in a MUA.

What it boils down to is that Mutt is a tool rather than an appliance,
and I prefer tools.  An appliance does the work for me, the same way
it does it for everyone else; a tool enhances my ability to do the work
using my skills and expressing my intent.

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
www.ulib.iupui.edu


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Re: Creating HTML emails with mutt

2019-10-30 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 11:37:43PM +1300, martin f krafft wrote:
>I'd love to see some statistics about the age of mutt users.

62

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
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Re: Creating HTML emails with mutt

2019-10-30 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 12:57:59PM +1300, martin f krafft wrote:
>Regarding the following, written by "Martin Trautmann" on 2019-10-30 at
>00:14 Uhr +0100:
> 
>  That's such a strange thing.
>  [...]
>  since they never learned, how proper threading and quoting could
>  have worked?
> 
>78 characters wide text/plain is just not the lowest common denominator
>anymore. I am not going to sing an ode to HTML email, but being able to
>use Markdown to create more expressive emails than using ASCII art is
>not something I find utterly offensive.

Here, I think, is the point at which various posters' results diverge.
I've never had anyone complain about my text/plain emails, but I've
never had any need to write fancy stuff.  Even Outlook seems incapable
of badly damaging blocks of text, indented blocks of text, *emphasis*,
_underscore/italics_, or lists.

(Or else my correspondents are more tolerant than I'd thought they
needed to be.)

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
www.ulib.iupui.edu


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Re: Opening URLs from mutt (was: Creating HTML emails with mutt)

2019-10-29 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 10:05:10PM +1300, martin f krafft wrote:
>Regarding the following, written by "Dave Woodfall" on 2019-10-29 at
>08:53 Uhr +:
> 
>  I deal with very long links, or long lists of links where the
>  context is lost, by opening the message in elinks, and then using
>  elinks' option to pass a link or current URL to an external
>  application or command, if elinks can't deal with it itself. That
>  way it's possible to copy the URL into /tmp/screen-exhange, then do
>  something in screen.
> 
>Sounds like a lot of ifs and loose parts to a task that we all end up
>doing dozen times a day. A good tool would let me accomplish such a
>task without engaging my brain, and with one or two key presses, don't
>you think?

Well, since you asked what I think:  I think that following links
without engaging my brain is dangerous behavior, and one of the
reasons I use Mutt is to interrupt that behavior before it becomes
established.

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
www.ulib.iupui.edu


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Re: Unsubscribing from mailing-list threads (was: Preferred way to get imap emails)

2019-07-30 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 07:40:02AM +0200, Matthias Apitz wrote:
> El día martes, julio 30, 2019 a las 06:36:35a. m. +0200, Francesco Ariis 
> escribió:
> 
> > On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 06:31:42AM +0200, Matthias Apitz wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm a mutt user for many years. From time to time I do miss a feature in
> > > mutt to mark a given thread as "do not present any mail of this thread
> > > anymore, just collapse them and mark for deletion on exit".
> > >
> > > This is such a thread I would mark as this.
> > 
> > Maybe this link can be of interest
> > 
> > http://ariis.it/static/articles/mutt-ml/page.html
> 
> Thanks for this pointer. The doc describes exactly the problem. But, the
> proposed solution with a macro deleting threads which follow the rule
> (copied from the doc):
> 
> "Threads with only replies means threads where the originating post
> isn’t present; if it is not present is because we deleted it; if we
> deleted it we didn’t like it and we don’t want replies to it, too."
> 
> is not good. Sometimes (many times) I have saved the original post of a
> "good" thread in some place, for example into the mbox file ~/Mail/mutt and 
> so the
> above pattern would touch/delete a "good" thread also as a "bad" one.
> 
> A solution must be based on some kind of a local "database" file of threads 
> marked as
> "bad" threads (perhaps as patterns) and one must actively store the given
> "bad" thread into it, for example with M and then a D would
> later, even in the next mutt session, read this "database" file and delete
> all threads from the actual mailbox for all patterns in it.

You may want to examine some netnews clients for ideas.  They tend to
have exactly this: a database of killed threads, easily augmented with
a simple keystroke.

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
www.ulib.iupui.edu


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Re: sigs again [Was: Composing in utf8 from latin1 terminal]

2018-10-29 Thread Mark H. Wood
Derek's message verified here.
Both of Ian's test messages verified here.

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
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Re: Bottom posting v top posting

2018-05-14 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Sun, May 13, 2018 at 09:52:23AM +1000, Brian Salter-Duke wrote:
> My partner reads gmail on her phone or tablet. She reads my messages but does
> not realise that if she scrolls down she can see her message that I replying
> to. If I had bottom posting, she would never have read my message, thinking
> that some how she had got her email back again. The use of phones for email
> alters the game. It is time we gave up bottom posting!

You go right ahead and give it up, if you wish.

I have no interest in coddling people who use tools but can't be
bothered to learn how they work.

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
www.ulib.iupui.edu


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Re: Bottom posting v top posting

2018-05-14 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Sun, May 13, 2018 at 07:15:46PM +0200, Martin Trautmann wrote:
> Am 13. Mai 2018 17:12:14 MESZ schrieb tech-lists <tech-li...@zyxst.net>:
> >No!! ;) and you're missing the point (IMOHO) :( basically, people 
> >quote back way too much. This is the issue. Most email apps allow 
> >threaded mail, so very little need to quote whole screeds. 
> 
> IBTD. Major e-mail tools, such as outlook, failed to support proper 
> threading. Writing on a smartphone here, I'm not even aware of an app with 
> threading. 

Heh.  When I want to do email via my phone, I SSH to where the mail is
and use Mutt.  It works very well, threading and all.

I haven't seen a phone-resident MUA or a webmail thingy that I would
choose to use if I had another way.  But a modern phone makes a nice
terminal.

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst, weirdo

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
www.ulib.iupui.edu


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Re: How to backup emails with colon in file name

2017-06-28 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 03:29:16PM -0500, Jason wrote:
> I've been experimenting with tar. Let's say I decide to use tar and
> forget about using rsync for mails, what would be some good options to 
> use to only update the archive with new files? I have tried:
> 
> tar uGvf ~/Main/mail.tar /path/to/maildir
> 
> but it seems every time it is run it just adds copies of everything to
> the archive again, instead of just what was added since last time.

Have you tried out 'zip -u'?

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
www.ulib.iupui.edu


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Re: sendmail in background?

2017-06-13 Thread Mark H. Wood
I've had good luck with nullmailer (to bounce everything through a
smarthost) and exim (as the smarthost).

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
www.ulib.iupui.edu


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Re: New mutt GPGME error

2017-06-02 Thread Mark H. Wood
I'm another Gentoo user.  I unmasked Mutt 1.8.2-r2 to see if it would
help a problem I was having with some S/MIME signed messages, and that
pulled in gpgme 1.8.0-r3.  I have fewer problems now with S/MIME and no
new issues.

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
www.ulib.iupui.edu


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[SPAM?] Re: [SPAM?] Can I use Mutt from Bash to extract attachments into an arbitrary directory?

2016-09-15 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 04:12:48PM -0700, Are Troi wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> Last night at a technical talk I lamented the loss around 5 years ago
> from Fedora of command-line tools to extract email attachments from a
> BASH script and a colleague told me Mutt can do this.

Mutt is a really nice tool, but for this I would probably reach first
for 'reformime' from the maildrop package.  (I'm a long-time maildrop
fan.)

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
www.ulib.iupui.edu


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Re: Configuring S/MIME when crypt_use_gpgme = yes?

2016-06-29 Thread Mark H. Wood
*sigh*  Never mind, something is not communicating well.  After
 flailing around for a while with gpgsm and associated tools, I found
 that the problem is either that an intermediate certificate is
 revoked or dirmngr is confused.  I temporarily disabled CRL checking
 and now mutt is happy to sign with my X.509 key.

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
www.ulib.iupui.edu


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Configuring S/MIME when crypt_use_gpgme = yes?

2016-06-28 Thread Mark H. Wood
I need to use PGP/MIME and S/MIME with different correspondents and I have
crypt_use_gpgme set.  This works fine for PGP/MIME but has broken
S/MIME.  I've set local-user in gpgsm but it seems to be ignored in
Mutt:  "error signing data: End of file?".  If I set
smime_default_key it always says "secret key SOMETHING not found".  (I've
tried the key ID with and without leading 0x, the key fingerprint, and
my email address.  'gpgsm -K' understands all of these.)

Yes, +CRYPT_BACKEND_GPGME is set.

What am I missing?

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
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Re: Use of vcalendar with mutt

2015-07-30 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 07:36:04AM +1000, Brian Salter-Duke wrote:
 On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 09:32:29AM +1000, Brian Salter-Duke wrote:
  
  Le 22/07/2015 à 20:31, Brian Salter-Duke a écrit :
   It does have a lot od email addresses in it. If you email me, I will send 
   you a
   copy , but I do not think I can put it to the list.
  You can edit it directly from Mutt (with the 'e' key) before sending it
  to this list. It would be better this way.
 
 I will try to attach it. Thanks for all your help.

I think you succeeded.  Here I received your message containing a text/plain
bodypart (above) and a message/rfc822 bodypart.  The latter contained
a text/calendar bodypart which rendered just fine using vcal.pl, a
nice VCALENDAR decoder script by Wayne Morrison.

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
www.ulib.iupui.edu


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Re: Mutt and Exchange

2014-09-09 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Tue, Sep 09, 2014 at 03:05:29PM +0200, John Niendorf wrote:
 I'm using Mutt to access my personal IMAP account, but was wondering if 
 there is a way to use Mutt to connect to my work Exchange 2010 account?
 
 I'm using Thunderbird that has an add-on that allows T-bird to connect to 
 Exchange using the Outlook Web Access settings.
 
 Has anyone ever connected to Exchange with Mutt?

Yes, with...IMAP.  But the folks running Exchange have to enable that.

-- 
Mark H. Wood
Lead Technology Analyst

University Library
Indiana University - Purdue University Indianapolis
755 W. Michigan Street
Indianapolis, IN 46202
317-274-0749
www.ulib.iupui.edu


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Re: How do I set the time zone from which mutt sends email?

2014-07-10 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Wed, Jul 09, 2014 at 08:02:53PM -0400, Jon LaBadie wrote:
 Emperical test, I'm in the Eastern US (EDT -4:00)
 I sent myself a message on another system using an
 altered TZ variable.
 
   TZ=PST8PDT mutt j...@mums.jgcomp.com
 
 I'm old fashioned, so I used the old style TZ settings
 for Western US.
 
 The header Date: showed the PDT date/time.
 The first Received: header showed the local system
 received it using the actual local time (EDT).

Thank you for testing and reporting.  I would say that that is just as
it should be.

It *may* be possible to have your local timezone forwarded
automatically with your remote connection.  For example: if you set TZ
in your local environment, OpenSSH will try to set it in the remote
shell process.  The remote sshd would have to be configured to permit
this.  (See SendEnv in ssh_config(5) and AcceptEnv in sshd_config(5),
as well as ssh(1), for more details, IF you use OpenSSH.)  No matter
what you use to connect, this will likely require cooperation from the
remote sysadmin.

-- 
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mw...@iupui.edu
Machines should not be friendly.  Machines should be obedient.


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Re: attachments in Mutt

2014-06-26 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 09:14:02AM +1000, Cameron Simpson wrote:
 On 24Jun2014 20:43, Martin Vegter martin.veg...@aol.com wrote:
 But all that said, should not a plain message (i.e. text body without
 attachments) be treated by mutt as such?
 
 Well, it is treated the same as other, more complex, types of messages...
 
 I am asking because when sending a message from Mutt, after I have
 composed the message in my editor and am now in the compose menu, I
 see the header (recepient, subject, ...) and below I see my message body
 as attachment.
 
 Is this a good conceptual approach, to treat everything as attachment?
 
 Since you can add an attachment from that view, I would be inclined to argue 
 yes.
 
 I find this quite illogical and unintuitive. AFAIU, this is specific to
 mutt, and does not have anything to do with any email standard.

I think you will find it has a lot to do with MIME.  The list may be
titled attachments but what it seems to be in reality is MIME
entities.  If that is so, then this behavior makes perfect sense.
There is no such thing as a plain message in MIME; the closest thing
would be a message containing a single text/plain entity.

 When I send an email via telnet, I simply type my message after DATA,
 and terminate with  CRLF.CRLF. No attachment is ever involved.
 
 Or editing. You might be able to configure mutt to send as soon as
 you quit the edit mode with the same degree of control. I haven't
 tried.
 
 Personally I prefer mutt's current behaviour. I use the edit mode to look 
 at 
 the message text and that is what mutt drops me directly into when I start a 
 new message (set autoedit=yes).
 
 Outside the edit mode, I am more interested in the message structure and 
 control (headers, attachements, if any, send/quit etc).

You are not alone.  I choose Mutt because it doesn't try to hide what
it is doing for me or limit what I can do with it.

-- 
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mw...@iupui.edu
Machines should not be friendly.  Machines should be obedient.


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Re: autoviewing html gone wrong

2014-06-26 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Thu, Jun 26, 2014 at 01:55:24PM +1000, raf wrote:
 hi,
 
 i used to have this in my mutt mailcap file:
 
 text/html; lynx -dump %s; copiousoutput
 
 and it was good. it formatted the html and gave me a list of
 referenced urls at the bottom.
 
 for some reason i can't remember, i changed it to:
 
 text/html; w3m -I %{charset} -T text/html -dump; copiousoutput;
 
 which does the formatting but doesn't give a list of referenced urls
 at the bottom so it's less useful.
 
 if i change it back to using the lynx -dump command then i see the
 raw html instead of the formatted html (as though i'd used lynx -source
 rather than lynx -dump).

Here's that entry from my ~/.mailcap:

text/html; \
/usr/bin/lynx -dump -force_html '%s'; \
copiousoutput; \
description=HTML Text; \
nametemplate=%s.html

-- 
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mw...@iupui.edu
Machines should not be friendly.  Machines should be obedient.


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Re: create multipart/alternative

2014-02-28 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 07:18:31AM -0600, David Champion wrote:
 I don't know offhand how you would generate the content.  MIME is not
 that hard to write if you know the structure, but I don't know a tool
 off the top of my head that will generate it for you.

I would try maildrop's 'makemime' tool.

-- 
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mw...@iupui.edu
Machines should not be friendly.  Machines should be obedient.


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Re: Why sign every message? (was Re: Sending attachments without crypt_autosign

2013-03-01 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 01:24:44PM -0600, Will Fiveash wrote:
 On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 12:55:39PM +0100, Stefan Wimmer wrote:
  Hi all,
  
  I recently started to sign all my mails and it took me little time to find
  out that you can't delete attachments in signed/encrypted mails ... ;-)
  
  Now I want to automate the way I use crypt_autosign that mutt checks first
  if there is an attachment and only signs the mail if that's not the case. I
  was thinking along the lines of
 
 I have a couple of comments about this:
 
 - Why sign most messages?  Unless the information is important for
   others to verify that it came from a particular person why add the
   bloat of a signature.  Beyond this I find it ironic that people sign
   e-mail with a private key where its public key isn't found on a
   standard PGP/GPG keyserver like pgp.mit.edu or kerckhoffs.surfnet.nl.

I sign all my messages so that I can say, I sign all my messages.
Don't believe anything claiming to be from me, if it is unsigned.

Sure, I could violate my own policy at any time, but...why?  Why put
my name on a message that I've repudiated in advance?

I look forward with pleasant anticipation but not much hope, to the
day when I can set maildrop to discard all unsigned mail before I see it.

-- 
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mw...@iupui.edu
There's an app for that:  your browser


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Re: [POSSIBLE SPAM] People that CC mailing lists

2013-02-13 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 09:17:43PM -0500, Brandon McCaig wrote:
 Some mailing lists don't require a subscription so you should use
 'g' to reply to those lists so even unsubscribed participants get
 the messages. Other lists insist that you /don't/ reply to
 everyone and only reply to the list so for those you should use
 'L'. Which one is appropriate will depend on the list rules. It
 can be hard to keep it straight if you mostly lurk...

Not for the first time, I find myself wishing for a Geek Code -like
header to encode all the many mailing-list rules and preferences, so
that UAs could give us more help in conforming to local standards.

  h+HTML mail is required
  h HTML mail is encouraged
  h-HTML mail is discouraged
  h!HTML mail is punishable by death

-- 
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mw...@iupui.edu
There's an app for that:  your browser


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Re: Config Files, and Remaining Confusion with html-mail

2013-01-28 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 04:43:34PM -0500, Alan McConnell wrote:
 On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 12:53:20PM -0700, s. keeling wrote:
  Incoming from Mark H. Wood:
   On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 09:28:05AM -0500, Alan McConnell wrote:
First, generically: I feel it is a source of difficulty that
mutt relies on two config files, .muttrc and .mailcap.  Perhaps
   
   .mailcap is a general-purpose configuration file for anything that
   wants to know what you would like done with certain types of content.
   Lots of other tools also use .mailcap and /etc/mailcap.
   
   This is why they are separate.  One belongs to Mutt and the other
   belongs to the world (including Mutt, which can use it).
  
  That was a beautiful exposition.
  LOL  It may seem beautiful to some, but it can't
  help anyone with a practical problem.

Well, generically that is what is going on.

 Mr Wood wrote further:
  You probably need to add ; needsterminal to your .mailcap entry for
  text/html so that Mutt will ask you to hit a key when the external
  program (Iceweasel) is finished.
 sigh  My iceweasel(aka Firefox) runs, and displays in the
 middle of my screen, from the moment my computer is turned
 on in the morning till I use it to talk to my DSL modem
 to shut down my connection in the evening, preparatory to
 shutdown -h now.

Yes, there's an additional wrinkle with Firefox/Iceweasel:  if it is
already running when you invoke it again, the second invocation just
tells the first to do something and then exits.  This makes the race
even *more*, uh, interesting.  The point is to make Mutt wait to
remove the file until some time after your browser is actually
displaying it.  Any time after that, Mutt can be allowed to continue.

Come to think of it, it's the second Iceweasel instance which enables
the race.  That instance just sends a message to the first instance
and then exits.  Mutt, which was waiting on the second instance,
thinks you're done with the temp file and cleans up.  The first
Iceweasel instance, which is the one you want to read with, may not
even have been scheduled yet, and if not then it wouldn't yet have the
file open.  When the main Iceweasel instance tries to obey the
message, the file is already gone.

   For more on .mailcap and how Mutt
  interprets it, see:
http://www.mutt.org/doc/manual/manual-5.html
   I've pored over the whole document, including this
   section.  It is likely my stupidity that makes me
   unable to find in it why the .muttrc and the .mailcap
   are fighting with each other

That's because they arent; Mutt and Iceweasel are fighting with each other.

   Re Race Conditions.  Unless I am mistaken, mutt is
   written as a single, un-threaded process; I believe that
   'me' is (justly) proud of this achievement.  So I do
   not understand how two processes can be involved here.

Mutt is one process.  Iceweasel is another.

-- 
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mw...@iupui.edu
There's an app for that:  your browser


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Re: use of .forward file

2013-01-28 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 10:58:17AM -0700, s. keeling wrote:
 Incoming from David Champion:
  * On 24 Jan 2013, horseriver wrote: 
   hi:
 I  place a .forward file in my home dir , according to man pages,
  
  Note that this is not related to mutt per se, so this may not be the
  best group to help.  However we can perhaps point you in the right
 
 Indeed.
 
 And last I heard, .forward was deprecated.  Your mail system may not
 care whether it's there or not.

tangent
Hmm, where did you hear that?

-- 
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mw...@iupui.edu
There's an app for that:  your browser


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Re: Config Files, and Remaining Confusion with html-mail

2013-01-25 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 09:28:05AM -0500, Alan McConnell wrote:
 First, generically: I feel it is a source of difficulty that
 mutt relies on two config files, .muttrc and .mailcap.  Perhaps
 one of the experts could give us a short exposition of the
 use of each of these files, and what to do when they conflict.
 That would help me get my second, personal, issue resolved.

.muttrc is Mutt's configuration.  It is specific to Mutt.

.mailcap is a general-purpose configuration file for anything that
wants to know what you would like done with certain types of content.
Lots of other tools also use .mailcap and /etc/mailcap.

This is why they are separate.  One belongs to Mutt and the other
belongs to the world (including Mutt, which can use it).

 Second(personal issue):  I'm still having problems with
 getting my html-mail to open(in a new tab) in my browser,
 which is Firefox(Debianers call it iceweasel).  Often,
 when I use 'v' on an entry in my mutt display, and then
 Arrow down to 3 . . . . [text/html . . . ., and then
 press Enter, a new Tab does open in my browser, and I see
 the html-mail displayed nicely.  Even then I get, in my
 browser-Tab: file:///home/alan/tmp/mutt.html, but there
 is no such file in my ~/tmp directory!
 
 But, too often, I get a quick new tab, a tenth of a second
 look at the html I want to see, and then mutt thinks better
 of it and I get a screen:  
File not found  Iceweasel can't find the file at
/home/alan/tmp/mutt.html
 
 The decision which way mutt will go between these two
 alternatives is, as far as I can see, quite arbitrary.

You probably need to add ; needsterminal to your .mailcap entry for
text/html so that Mutt will ask you to hit a key when the external
program (Iceweasel) is finished.  For more on .mailcap and how Mutt
interprets it, see:

  http://www.mutt.org/doc/manual/manual-5.html

especially the section Optional Fields.

Background:

This sounds like what is usually called a race condition.  Two
processes are trying to use the same resource without sufficient
coordination.  Some times one process completes first, other times the
other completes first.  This causes differing behavior at different
times.

Here, I expect that Mutt is writing out that temporary file, invoking
Iceweasel, and then cleaning up the temporary file without concerning
itself with whether Iceweasel has had time to start itself and open
the file.  If Iceweasel already has the file open, then Mutt can
delete it now and it will go away when Iceweasel closes it.  Otherwise
Iceweasel goes to open the file it was told to show, and the file is
not there, because it was already deleted by Mutt.

There are at least two ways to cure a race.  The simple one is to get
one process to wait for the other to finish, or at least fully start.
The more complex (but preferred if it is not too difficult) way is to
have the processes tell each other how they're proceeding so that each
can make good decisions.  The simple way here is to get Mutt to wait
until you tell it to proceed.

-- 
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mw...@iupui.edu
There's an app for that:  your browser


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Re: can not get mail from mail list which are send by myself

2013-01-10 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Wed, Jan 09, 2013 at 01:59:22PM -0600, Jim Graham wrote:
[snip]
 Btw, port 587 is one of those that I said are used for authentication,
 as opposed to port 25 which is UNauthenticated.

See the SMTP AUTH verb.  Anything you can do on those oddball ports,
you can do on port 25.  An SMTP host will negotiate authentication,
message integrity, and privacy.  Mind, some of them are bady set up
and will always negotiate to none of those, take it or leave it. :-P

465 is SMTP-in-TLS.  In general X-in-TLS is deprecated; see upward
negotiation and in particular the SMTP STARTTLS verb.

587 is SMTP on another port, called submission, and I have no idea
why anyone thought it was necessary.  It's just a port on which the
MTA speaks SMTP but is unwilling to serve until AUTH has been
negotiated.  25 could have been configured the same way.  RFC 6409 §9
sets forth arguments for separating MTA and MSA but I find those
arguments very weak.

-- 
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mw...@iupui.edu
There's an app for that:  your browser


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Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value (was ... Re: Is there any gmane.org user in the list?)

2012-11-30 Thread Mark H. Wood
[ruminations on a GMail Killer]

I wonder if the feeling is not so much being daunted by Google, but
rather that the thought of building a GMail Killer is not very
interesting.  I find that Open Source projects tend to assign small
value to competition, preferring to do what no one else is doing.
Even with Microsoft, the competition tends to be focused on staking
out and defending interesting territory where they can be safely
ignored.

And, Open Source has deep roots in Unix culture, where there is a
conscious effort *not* to design huge all-encompassing things, but
rather excellent small tools that can be assembled into Grand Designs
by others.

That's one reason I'm a Mutt user:  I get a nice simple MUA that also
has all the capabilities of any specialized content handler I am
clever enough to plumb into it.  (That, and that it naturally ignores
all the distracting glitter-glue stuff unless I specifically ask to
see some.  Liking that places me firmly in the minority, but I'm happy
there.)

-- 
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mw...@iupui.edu
I don't do doorbusters.


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Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value (was ... Re: Is there any gmane.org user in the list?)

2012-11-29 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 08:08:45AM -0600, Jim Graham wrote:
 Look at it from the other direction---you're on an e-mail list, where
 people ask questions, and other people use their own free time and
 volunteer to help those asking the questions.  It is perfectly reasonable
 to expect that the person asking the question
 
[snip]
B) take the time to post the information needed to help (e.g., in the
   Android developers list, that would be the purpose of your app,
   what you were expecting, what really happened, relevant//suspect
   code, and relevant log (logcat) output);

To the extent that a less experienced person is able to determine what
would be helpful.  If someone new shows up with an incomplete
question, I will usually try to draw him out.  Someone who ignores
such advice, though, earns being ignored in turn.

[snip]
D) post in the format used and preferred on said list...that means
   default line wraps, top//mixed posting, proper trimming, useful
   subject lines (that does NOT include things like Hi, Help me,
   My app won't work, etc.);

I've toyed with the notion of Yet Another Header to present a compact
encoding of a list's local rules and collective preferences.  One
problem is that one is trained in certain behaviors on one list, and
then needs to discuss something on another list where the expectations
are different.

[snip]
 If people can't be bothered to take the time to do these things, more
 often than not, the gurus on the list won't bother to take the time to
 answer.  It's a question of mutual respect, consideration, courtesy,
 etc., and if you don't like that, well, that's the way it usually is, so
 get used to it.

Yes.  Now, there are those who appear to be struggling with their own
limitations, and they often get help anyway.  I will put forth more
effort for someone who is making a sincere effort in turn.  Others
give the appearance that they just don't care, and that perceived
attitude infects me:  I don't care much about answering someone who
isn't even trying to make himself understood.  It's an uncertain
judgment, but one very difficult to avoid.

[snip]
   Allowance for non-native English authors is good, in my experience, on a
   variety of technical lists.
 
 On that, we definitely agree, but the OP should still try to find a good
 translator...obviously, some are MUCH better than others.  But then, I
 have also run into several (some of which I consider good friends OFF
 of the list) who, while not a native English speaker, speak (and type)
 better English than many native English speakers...better spelled, better
 grammar, punctuation, capitalization, and vocabulary.  I just wonder
 which nation's school system is the most responsible for that.

That's been my experience too.  To read something written by someone
who has mastered his own native language, but not mine, is usually
easier for me than to read writing by someone whose first language is
English but who has never really learned to use it.  When a poster
starts off by apologizing for his English, I have learned to expect
that I will have little trouble understanding him.

-- 
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mw...@iupui.edu
I don't do doorbusters.


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Re: email has changed, you won't change everyone, and you don't have to

2012-11-21 Thread Mark H. Wood
Well, when it doesn't work to lecture people who are trying to
communicate, try ignoring them.  On public MLs, whenever my this guy
doesn't know how to communicate effectively recognizer goes off, I
typically hit 'd' and move on.

If the sender never notices, you probably haven't missed anything.  If
he complains, *then* you get a chance to educate him:

  A:  Why don't you answer my emails?
  B:  Because you write like a drunken monkey?  Reading your messages
  is bootless and exhausting.
  A:  Huh?  What's wrong with my writing?

  [You have reached the Teachable Moment.  Shift to a helpful,
  empowering tone and explain how he can get more from the time he
  spends on his missives by employing a few powerful conventions.
  Notice how I didn't say improve your writing or follow rules?
  There's something that he wants, and you're showing him how to
  reach out and take it.  You're offering him power and influence,
  *for free*.]

Vary the initial answer in accordance with the audience -- you
probably wouldn't talk to your boss *quite* that way, but you can find
a way that works.  Whatever the tactics, the goal is to get him to
wonder what's wrong with my writing?  Then you can tell him what
could become right about it, which is a lot more interesting.

-- 
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mw...@iupui.edu
I don't do doorbusters.


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Re: email has changed, you won't change everyone, and you don't have to

2012-11-21 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 02:54:42PM -0600, David Young wrote:
 On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 09:27:19PM +0100, Holger Weiß wrote:
  * David Young dyo...@pobox.com [2012-11-20 11:59]:
   On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 04:42:13PM +, John Long wrote:
Take some responsibility for yourself and your content. Post like a man 
not
a webbot.
   
   I cannot believe people are still hewing to this old line.  It's like
   thousands of people fell asleep at their teletypes (I mean the kind that
   printed on paper) in the 1970s and woke up in 2012.
  
  The point is not supporting teletypes (though I do print emails to paper
  quite regularly in 2012), but readability.  Extending the line length to
  more than 70 or 80 characters significantly reduces readability.
 
 Of course the point is not supporting teletypes.  But if the point
 is readability, why uphold the readability conventions from another
 time, medium, and technology like nothing has changed in email content,
 volume, or the variety and capabilities of clients?

Because the human eye, and the way it is mounted and controlled,
together with the human visual cortex and the way it processes
stimuli, have not changed at all in that interval, and that is the
technology which these conventions address.

-- 
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mw...@iupui.edu
I don't do doorbusters.


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Re: email has changed, you won't change everyone, and you don't have to

2012-11-21 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 11:27:45PM +, Ken Moffat wrote:
 On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 11:59:55AM -0600, David Young wrote:
  Every now and then some jerk sends me an email reply where their
  contribution is red.  Maybe that is worth fighting about on grounds
  that that's a poor choice of color for readability, but not on grounds
  that my console is monochrome.
 
  If someone sends me html mail (to a different account), I trash
 mail in silly colours.  On a technical list, I expect plain text and
 conformity with accepted norms.

Eh, I pipe it through lynx, which removes most of the frills and makes
it almost readable again.

  mwood@mhw ~/.mutt $ grep html ~/.mutt/muttrc
  auto_view   text/html
  alternative_order   text/plain text/html application/postscript text
  mwood@mhw ~ $ grep html /etc/mailcap 
  text/html; /usr/bin/lynx -dump -force_html '%s'; \
   copiousoutput; \
   description=HTML Text; \
   nametemplate=%s.html
  mwood@mhw ~ $

(Hand-rewrapped to fit my 80-column xterm.)

You should see the double-takes at a store when I present one of those
your order has arrived, bring a copy of this messages (usually
dripping with unnecessary decoration and clutter) which I've printed
out of mutt. :-)

-- 
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mw...@iupui.edu
I don't do doorbusters.


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Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value (was ... Re: Is there any gmane.org user in the list?)

2012-11-21 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 10:02:28PM +, Ken Moffat wrote:
  If someone, particularly on a support list, sends an atrociously
 long line, then it becomes *much* harder to select the appropriate
 part of that line/paragraph/epistle and delete the rest of it when
 replying.

Ah, well, when *replying*, emacs has a rewrap command.  It even
recognizes quoted text and adds the quoting prefix, if I use it
properly.  (Still learning what properly means in this context,
though.)

-- 
Mark H. Wood, unrepentant emacser   mw...@iupui.edu
I don't do doorbusters.


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Re: email has changed, you won't change everyone, and you don't have to

2012-11-21 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 03:23:30PM +, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:
 / Mark H. Wood wrote on Wed 21.Nov'12 at  9:56:23 -0500 /
 
  Well, when it doesn't work to lecture people who are trying to
  communicate, try ignoring them.  On public MLs, whenever my this guy
  doesn't know how to communicate effectively recognizer goes off, I
  typically hit 'd' and move on.
[snip]
 
 Your preference, of course, but this just seems unnecessarily intollerant 
 if you ask me. Netiquette is merely a guideline, not a law. People
 sometimes just reply quickly and therefore forget to adhere to some of
 the netiquette guidelines, it doesn't mean they should be ignored. Why
 would you want to adopt such an approach? It's unfriendly and
 unwelcoming and is one of the reasons people sometimes feel
 uncomfortable posting to mailing lists in fear of being publicly
 scorned. Surely that goes against the whole purpose of mailing lists and
 usenet which is to help people and share information.

Well, dashing something off without caring whether it is readable is
unfriendly and unwelcoming too.  If a thought is not worth the effort
of writing it well, I have found that generally it is not worth the
recipient's effort to read it.

I can't help someone if I'm so tired and confused from the effort to
winkle out the poster's meaning that I have no brainpower left to help
with.  Why waste that time?

-- 
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mw...@iupui.edu
I don't do doorbusters.


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Re: What are the current fetchmail/getmail and/or procmail/maildrop utilities?

2012-11-08 Thread Mark H. Wood
fetchmail + maildrop works for me.

-- 
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mw...@iupui.edu
Asking whether markets are efficient is like asking whether people are smart.


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Re: What are the current fetchmail/getmail and/or procmail/maildrop utilities?

2012-11-08 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Wed, Nov 07, 2012 at 10:48:45AM -0600, Derek Martin wrote:
 On Wed, Nov 07, 2012 at 02:15:41PM +, Chris Green wrote:
  What does everyone else here do for collecting mail and filtering mail
  with mutt?
 
 Fetchmail and procmail.  Ugly, but ubiquitous and reliable.  A friend
 pointed me at something better for mail filtering, but I can't
 recall what it was... mainly because I haven't gotten around to
 looking into it, on account of the fact that my current solution works
 well and requires no learning curve.  Learning a new mail filter
 system is very low on the priority list.

I'm guessing 'sieve'.  Haven't tried it.

-- 
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mw...@iupui.edu
Asking whether markets are efficient is like asking whether people are smart.


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Re: Google smtp Server Changes My From Address.

2012-09-26 Thread Mark H. Wood
Eh, I set up a special router in Exim to punt mail for paranoid MTAs
through my ISP's MTA.  I have to add maybe one provider per year to
the little flat file.  Much of my outgoing mail still goes direct.

I did have to go to my knees and beg my ISP to allow outgoing traffic
to port 25.  Humph.

-- 
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mw...@iupui.edu
Asking whether markets are efficient is like asking whether people are smart.


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Re: mutt on an IMAP-Server (dovecot): folder names and structure

2012-08-16 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 06:29:42PM +0200, martin f krafft wrote:
 What do you do about the password? I don't want to store that in
 .muttrc!

Well, what *I* do is use Kerberos so I authenticate once when I
login.  Mutt (suitably configured) picks this up and gets the
necessary ticket.  But I'm crazy enough to run a complete Kerberos
setup in my home.

-- 
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mw...@iupui.edu
Asking whether markets are efficient is like asking whether people are smart.


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Re: Killfiling, anyone?

2012-07-25 Thread Mark H. Wood
Well, here's one vote for maildrop (from a former procmail user).
They're both good.

And, since I use exim, I keep telling myself that someday I'm going to
try its Sieve per-user filter support.

-- 
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mw...@iupui.edu
Asking whether markets are efficient is like asking whether people are smart.


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Re: Messages from Mutt received by gmail but nothing else

2012-04-02 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 04:23:39PM -0700, w...@willschrimshaw.net wrote:
 While trying out mutt over the past couple of days I've noticed that
 messages sent from Mutt are received by gmail but nothing else, as far as
 I can tell.
 
 I can send an email to a gmail account, so messages are getting off my
 computer. If I send an email to a microsoft owa email service, or to the
 mutt users list from mutt, for example, the email never makes it.
 
 I've had a look at mail.log, which doesn't make loads of sense to me,
 being new to mutt, but I can see that something is being `blocked using
 urbl.hostedmail.com'.

The rbl in urbl probably refers to a Realtime Blackhole List.
It's a way for email hosts (among others) to check addresses for
properties they don't like such as known spammer [sensible] or
dynamic address from a consumer-grade ISP [stupid and prejudiced,
IMNSHO].

At home I've had to set up exim (the MTA I run) with a special router
to deal with other's mail hubs that don't want to talk to dirty rotten
consumer dynamic IPs:

# This router routes addresses of paranoid ISPs that assume all dialup users
# are doing something illegitimate.

paranoids:
  driver = manualroute
  route_data = ${lookup{$domain}partial-lsearch{/etc/exim/paranoids}}
  transport = remote_smtp

It uses my ISP's mail hub to hide my unclean IP address from finicky
MTAs but lets me send directly to others, so that at least sometimes I
have useful logs to show whether a message went through.

The simple solution is often to just use your ISP's MTA as a smarthost
for all outgoing mail.  I'm picky, so there are times when I don't get
to use simple solutions.

-- 
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mw...@iupui.edu
Asking whether markets are efficient is like asking whether people are smart.


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Re: Content-Type being ignored for whole message body

2012-03-02 Thread Mark H. Wood
On Thu, Mar 01, 2012 at 02:25:02PM -0800, Gary Johnson wrote:
 On 2012-03-01, Mark H. Wood wrote:
  I've looked over all the configuration options I can find, and I see a
  lot of stuff about *attachments*.  Attachments are working pretty
  well.  But when I receive a message consisting of a single HTML
  bodypart, the Content-Type header is apparently ignored and I see a
  stream of markup gibberish.  Going through the attachment list (v m)
  gets the message body rendered through lynx as I have it set up, but
  what am I missing that this is not done automatically?
 
 You need this in your ~/.muttrc (or ~/.mutt/muttrc):
 
 auto_view text/html

That was it.  I mistakenly believed that auto_view would apply
wildcards, so * wasn't matching text/html.  I'm sorry I didn't
read the auto_view doco. closely enough.  Thank you!

-- 
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mw...@iupui.edu
Asking whether markets are efficient is like asking whether people are smart.


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Content-Type being ignored for whole message body

2012-03-01 Thread Mark H. Wood
I've looked over all the configuration options I can find, and I see a
lot of stuff about *attachments*.  Attachments are working pretty
well.  But when I receive a message consisting of a single HTML
bodypart, the Content-Type header is apparently ignored and I see a
stream of markup gibberish.  Going through the attachment list (v m)
gets the message body rendered through lynx as I have it set up, but
what am I missing that this is not done automatically?

Here's a bit of what it looks like:

Thread-Topic: Work/Life E-news 3 12:  Help with Taxes, Get MIT Credentials,
Adult Immunizations  More
Thread-Index: Acz3u0L+dgkZKAO3QZ2hsFfZKTvwaQ==
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 09:55:04 -0500
Message-ID:
c0f1c846dfc0374289bbea7190522fd910dd2...@iu-mssg-mbx102.ads.iu.edu
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Exchange-Organization-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-Organization-AuthMechanism: 04
X-MS-Exchange-Organization-AuthSource: iu-mssg-hub101.ads.iu.edu
X-MS-Has-Attach: 
X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, OOF, AutoReply
X-MS-Exchange-Organization-SCL: -1
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

html xmlns:v=urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml
xmlns:o=urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office
xmlns:w=urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word
xmlns:m=http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml;
xmlns=http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40;


And here's what I'm running:

mwood@mhw ~ $ mutt -v
Mutt 1.5.21 (2010-09-15, Gentoo 1.5.21-r1)
Copyright (C) 1996-2009 Michael R. Elkins and others.
Mutt comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; for details type `mutt -vv'.
Mutt is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it
under certain conditions; type `mutt -vv' for details.

System: Linux 3.2.1-gentoo-r2 (x86_64)
ncurses: ncurses 5.9.20110404 (compiled with 5.9)
hcache backend: GDBM version 1.8.3. 10/15/2002 (built Sep 21 2011
10:51:40)
Compile options:
-DOMAIN
-DEBUG
+HOMESPOOL  -USE_SETGID  +USE_DOTLOCK  +DL_STANDALONE  -USE_FCNTL
+USE_FLOCK   
-USE_POP  -USE_NNTP  +USE_IMAP  -USE_SMTP  
+USE_SSL_OPENSSL  -USE_SSL_GNUTLS  +USE_SASL  -USE_GSS
+HAVE_GETADDRINFO  
-HAVE_REGCOMP  +USE_GNU_REGEX  +COMPRESSED  
+HAVE_COLOR  +HAVE_START_COLOR  +HAVE_TYPEAHEAD  +HAVE_BKGDSET  
+HAVE_CURS_SET  +HAVE_META  +HAVE_RESIZETERM  
+CRYPT_BACKEND_CLASSIC_PGP  +CRYPT_BACKEND_CLASSIC_SMIME
+CRYPT_BACKEND_GPGME  
-EXACT_ADDRESS  -SUN_ATTACHMENT  
-ENABLE_NLS  -LOCALES_HACK  +HAVE_WC_FUNCS  +HAVE_LANGINFO_CODESET
+HAVE_LANGINFO_YESEXPR  
+HAVE_ICONV  -ICONV_NONTRANS  -HAVE_LIBIDN  +HAVE_GETSID  +USE_HCACHE  
-ISPELL
SENDMAIL=/usr/sbin/sendmail
MAILPATH=Maildir
PKGDATADIR=/usr/share/mutt
SYSCONFDIR=/etc/mutt
EXECSHELL=/bin/sh
MIXMASTER=mixmaster
To contact the developers, please mail to mutt-...@mutt.org.
To report a bug, please visit http://bugs.mutt.org/.

dgc.subjrx
fg.smarttime
vvv.initials
vvv.quote
vvv.nntp
patch-1.5.20hg.pdmef.progress.vl.2
rr.compressed
patch-1.5.4.lpr.collapse_flagged Lukas P. Ruf lukas@lpr.ch

-- 
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer   mw...@iupui.edu
Asking whether markets are efficient is like asking whether people are smart.


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