Re: option description - default and dependencies
On Fri, Aug 02, 2002 at 02:43:15 +0200, Sven Guckes wrote: not quite right - sorry. so lete me repeat: OK, perhaps I haven't understood. i want the manual to list all possibilities of default values and their dependencies to configure options - I still don't understand. What do you mean by all possibilities? If this is what I think, there are an infinite number of possibilities, e.g. a path chosen at compile time could be any path... Moreover, I disagree about giving the dependency to configure options. As I've said, the user cannot necessarily know what configure options have been used to compile the installed Mutt binary (unless you know a way to do that), so this will be useless information that may confuse him (he may think that no special configure options have been used, though this is not necessarily true). Instead, we should give the dependencies to what mutt -v displays, as these data are accessible by the user. however, i do *not* want the configure script to install different versions of manuals. I agree. If the manual refers to compile-time options to know if the default value given by the manual is correct, the user must have a way to know what options have been used. exactly - so there should be a section in the manual which tells the user about how to request info from the binary. See above. But later, I may adapt my signature to the Mutt mailing-lists with something like: send-hook ~Cmutt.*@mutt.org 'set signature=~/.sig-mutt [still hadn't the time to do that, also I'll have to remove my X-Mailer-Info header in this case, as it will be useless] my_hdr X-Signature: http://www.vinc17.org/signature Not necessarily a good idea. Some users only download the headers before choosing what messages to download, in particular when they have a temporary slow connection (for instance, this is what the mailer of the Psion 5mx does). So, it's better to have something in one's signature than in the headers. -- Vincent Lefèvre [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Web: http://www.vinc17.org/ - 100% validated (X)HTML - Acorn Risc PC, Yellow Pig 17, Championnat International des Jeux Mathématiques et Logiques, TETRHEX, etc. Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA
Re: option description - default and dependencies
* Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2002-08-01 08:29]: Read what Sven wrote (concerning the manual): Default: /path/file (unless specified by --some-option) If the user wants to know if he can trust to the default value given in the manual, he needs to know the options given to compile the version of Mutt he's using (and perhaps more, like some environment variables). i dont think that the description to every option needs a description on how to use the configure script. however, a pointer on how to check mutt -v might be required. Default: /path/file (unless specified by --some-option check the version info with mutt -v | grep keyword) is that better? Sven
Re: option description - default and dependencies
On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 13:33:46 +0200, Sven Guckes wrote: i dont think that the description to every option needs a description on how to use the configure script. however, a pointer on how to check mutt -v might be required. Default: /path/file (unless specified by --some-option check the version info with mutt -v | grep keyword) is that better? Well, a little better. Not clear enough, IMHO. I would say: Default: depends on the compile-time configuration, e.g. /path/file (check with mutt -v | grep keyword) It must be clear that /path/file is only an example. There is no reason why the administrator would have used standard options to configure. So, the user mustn't assume anything without checking with mutt -v. -- Vincent Lefèvre [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Web: http://www.vinc17.org/ - 100% validated (X)HTML - Acorn Risc PC, Yellow Pig 17, Championnat International des Jeux Mathématiques et Logiques, TETRHEX, etc. Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA
Re: option description - default and dependencies
On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 07:41:22 -0500, Patrick wrote: That IS THE INFORMATION presented in the INSTALL file within the tarball/rpm issue for each version of mutt and most other program issues. The user doesn't necessarily have the tarball or rpm. Moreover, the INSTALL file doesn't say anything about the options used for the installed Mutt binary. -- Vincent Lefèvre [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Web: http://www.vinc17.org/ - 100% validated (X)HTML - Acorn Risc PC, Yellow Pig 17, Championnat International des Jeux Mathématiques et Logiques, TETRHEX, etc. Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA
Re: option description - default and dependencies
* Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2002-08-01 13:43]: Default: depends on the compile-time configuration, e.g. /path/file (check with mutt -v | grep keyword) It must be clear that /path/file is only an example. There is no reason why the administrator would have used standard options to configure. So, the user mustn't assume anything without checking with mutt -v. you will have to write a *lot* to clear this up for every option... * Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2002-08-01 13:45]: On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 07:41:22 -0500, Patrick wrote: That IS THE INFORMATION presented in the INSTALL file within the tarball/rpm issue for each version of mutt and most other program issues. The user doesn't necessarily have the tarball or rpm. Moreover, the INSTALL file doesn't say anything about the options used for the installed Mutt binary. is this really from you, too, Vincent? i double-checked on this after i read it. just as the INSTALL file cannot give info about the installed mutt binary - the manual cannot do this, either. the goal, however, is clear: better documentation and the version info of mutt needs to give more info, too. i hope we still agree on these things. PS: send-hook ~l 'set signature=' Sven [who avoids signatures on mailinglists - and only adds them when they contain further info]
Re: option description - default and dependencies
On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 16:54:28 +0200, Sven Guckes wrote: you will have to write a *lot* to clear this up for every option... Very few default values depend on the compile-time option. * Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2002-08-01 13:45]: On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 07:41:22 -0500, Patrick wrote: That IS THE INFORMATION presented in the INSTALL file within the tarball/rpm issue for each version of mutt and most other program issues. The user doesn't necessarily have the tarball or rpm. Moreover, the INSTALL file doesn't say anything about the options used for the installed Mutt binary. is this really from you, too, Vincent? i double-checked on this after i read it. just as the INSTALL file cannot give info about the installed mutt binary - the manual cannot do this, either. I agree. But I recall that *you* wanted the manual to refer to compile-time options of the installed Mutt binary. I didn't. You have to be consistent. If the manual refers to compile-time options to know if the default value given by the manual is correct, the user must have a way to know what options have been used. PS: send-hook ~l 'set signature=' Sven [who avoids signatures on mailinglists - and only adds them when they contain further info] Users can use procmail to remove them. :) But later, I may adapt my signature to the Mutt mailing-lists with something like: send-hook ~Cmutt.*@mutt.org 'set signature=~/.sig-mutt -- Vincent Lefèvre [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Web: http://www.vinc17.org/ - 100% validated (X)HTML - Acorn Risc PC, Yellow Pig 17, Championnat International des Jeux Mathématiques et Logiques, TETRHEX, etc. Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA
Re: option description - default and dependencies
* Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2002-08-01 15:30]: Very few default values depend on the compile-time option. thank god! just as the INSTALL file cannot give info about the installed mutt binary - the manual cannot do this, either. I agree. But I recall that *you* wanted the manual to refer to compile-time options of the installed Mutt binary. I didn't. You have to be consistent. not quite right - sorry. so lete me repeat: i want the manual to list all possibilities of default values and their dependencies to configure options - however, i do *not* want the configure script to install different versions of manuals. that's consistens with what i said before. If the manual refers to compile-time options to know if the default value given by the manual is correct, the user must have a way to know what options have been used. exactly - so there should be a section in the manual which tells the user about how to request info from the binary. PS: send-hook ~l 'set signature=' Users can use procmail to remove them. :) :0 * From:.*[EMAIL PROTECTED] SPAM But later, I may adapt my signature to the Mutt mailing-lists with something like: send-hook ~Cmutt.*@mutt.org 'set signature=~/.sig-mutt my_hdr X-Signature: http://www.vinc17.org/signature Sven
Re: option description - default and dependencies
* Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2002-07-31 17:16]: the default value should *always* be documented. What do you mean by documented? the manual to muttrc should show it. OK, so what happens if two Mutt binaries use different default values? different things? ;-) are there any options with different defaults according to configure options being used? The default value of dotlock_program depends on the configuration options. ah, ok, good example! if so then this should be documented, too. Yes, and my point was: for these options, the default value shouldn't be written in the manual, because it may be incorrect. but it still does not help issuing different versions of the manual as getting the correct manual then both depends on $PATH and $MANPATH. and these usually do not fit well together, do they? so the solution is: extend the manual with more information! eg Default: /path/file (unless specified by --some-option) The user should get the actual value with :set xxx=[TAB]. And of course, this should be documented. Moreover, if mutt -v could give a hint, this would be useful. absolutely! in the above case both mutt -v|grep = and :set ?dotlock_program should show its value. and I'd be happy to see some ordering in the version info: DOTLOCKPROG=/path/file EXECSHELL=/bin/sh ISPELL=/import/gnu/bin/ispell MAILPATH=/var/mail SENDMAIL=/var/qmail/bin/sendmail PKGDATADIR=/import/local/share/mutt SYSCONFDIR=/import/local/etc whenever I see the options list I think it *should* be sorted: Compile options: -DOMAIN -DEBUG -HOMESPOOL -USE_SETGID +USE_DOTLOCK -DL_STANDALONE +USE_FCNTL -USE_FLOCK +USE_POP +USE_IMAP -USE_GSS +USE_SSL -USE_SASL +HAVE_REGCOMP -USE_GNU_REGEX +HAVE_COLOR +HAVE_START_COLOR +HAVE_TYPEAHEAD +HAVE_BKGDSET +HAVE_CURS_SET +HAVE_META +HAVE_RESIZETERM +HAVE_PGP +BUFFY_SIZE -EXACT_ADDRESS +SUN_ATTACHMENT +ENABLE_NLS +LOCALES_HACK +HAVE_WC_FUNCS +HAVE_LANGINFO_CODESET +HAVE_LANGINFO_YESEXPR +HAVE_ICONV -ICONV_NONTRANS +HAVE_GETSID +HAVE_GETADDRINFO having to search through this list simply is unbearable. bah![tm] Sven
Re: option description - default and dependencies
* Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2002-07-31 21:03]: so the solution is: extend the manual with more information! eg Default: /path/file (unless specified by --some-option) The user doesn't necessarily know what options have been used, so this is a bad idea to say that. i disagree. the manual should include a section which tells the user how to check for such information. the users who are not capable of finding, reading, or understanding this section should not be using this program in the first place. Sven [not sure whether to add a smiley]
Re: option description - default and dependencies
On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 02:09:18 +0200, Sven Guckes wrote: * Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2002-07-31 21:03]: so the solution is: extend the manual with more information! eg Default: /path/file (unless specified by --some-option) The user doesn't necessarily know what options have been used, so this is a bad idea to say that. i disagree. the manual should include a section which tells the user how to check for such information. And how can one find the options used to compile Mutt? -- Vincent Lefèvre [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Web: http://www.vinc17.org/ - 100% validated (X)HTML - Acorn Risc PC, Yellow Pig 17, Championnat International des Jeux Mathématiques et Logiques, TETRHEX, etc. Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA
Re: option description - default and dependencies
* Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] [07-31-02 21:04]: On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 02:09:18 +0200, Sven Guckes wrote: * Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2002-07-31 21:03]: so the solution is: extend the manual with more information! eg Default: /path/file (unless specified by --some-option) The user doesn't necessarily know what options have been used, so this is a bad idea to say that. i disagree. the manual should include a section which tells the user how to check for such information. And how can one find the options used to compile Mutt? Guess you should read the informational files included in the tarball/rpm. They are detailed in the INSTALL file of every mutt version I have ever seen. If you are informed enought to question Sven about the SUBJECT, you should be intelligent enought about file distributions to know this. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org
Re: option description - default and dependencies
On Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 21:14:18 -0500, Patrick wrote: * Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] [07-31-02 21:04]: On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 02:09:18 +0200, Sven Guckes wrote: * Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2002-07-31 21:03]: so the solution is: extend the manual with more information! eg Default: /path/file (unless specified by --some-option) The user doesn't necessarily know what options have been used, so this is a bad idea to say that. i disagree. the manual should include a section which tells the user how to check for such information. And how can one find the options used to compile Mutt? Guess you should read the informational files included in the tarball/rpm. They are detailed in the INSTALL file of every mutt version I have ever seen. You are not answering my question. -- Vincent Lefèvre [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Web: http://www.vinc17.org/ - 100% validated (X)HTML - Acorn Risc PC, Yellow Pig 17, Championnat International des Jeux Mathématiques et Logiques, TETRHEX, etc. Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA
Re: option description - default and dependencies
* Vincent Lefevre ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [01 Aug 2002 11:56]: [..] And how can one find the options used to compile Mutt? mutt -v cheers, -- Iain, who still finds it odd seeing you in non-Acorn contexts.
Re: option description - default and dependencies
* Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] [07-31-02 21:25]: On Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 21:14:18 -0500, Patrick wrote: * Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] [07-31-02 21:04]: On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 02:09:18 +0200, Sven Guckes wrote: * Vincent Lefevre [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2002-07-31 21:03]: so the solution is: extend the manual with more information! eg Default: /path/file (unless specified by --some-option) The user doesn't necessarily know what options have been used, so this is a bad idea to say that. i disagree. the manual should include a section which tells the user how to check for such information. And how can one find the options used to compile Mutt? Guess you should read the informational files included in the tarball/rpm. They are detailed in the INSTALL file of every mutt version I have ever seen. You are not answering my question. You are not reading the post. Paragraph above says: They are detailed in the INSTALL file of every mutt version I have ever seen (tarball/rpm). Partial quote from 1.4i: In most cases, configure will automatically determine everything it needs to know in order to compile. However, there are a few options to `configure'' to help it out, or change the default behavior: --prefix=DIR install Mutt in DIR instead of /usr/local --with-curses=DIR use the curses lib in DIR/lib. If you have ncurses, `configure'' will automatically look in /usr/include/ncurses for the include files. --with-slang[=DIR] use the S-Lang library instead of ncurses. This library seems to work better for some people because it is less picky about proper termcap entries than ncurses. It is recommended that you use at *least* version 0.99-38 with Mutt. If you need to know more of the config options, you will need to read the file yourself. Help yourself, it's good to be inquisitive. hagd, -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org
Re: option description - default and dependencies
On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 12:25:01 +1000, Iain Truskett wrote: * Vincent Lefevre ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [01 Aug 2002 11:56]: [..] And how can one find the options used to compile Mutt? mutt -v No, it gives partial information. -- Vincent Lefèvre [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Web: http://www.vinc17.org/ - 100% validated (X)HTML - Acorn Risc PC, Yellow Pig 17, Championnat International des Jeux Mathématiques et Logiques, TETRHEX, etc. Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA
Re: option description - default and dependencies
On Wed, Jul 31, 2002 at 21:49:21 -0500, Patrick wrote: Quote from and earlier post by you answering Sven Guckes: whenever I see the options list I think it *should* be sorted: Compile options: -DOMAIN -DEBUG -HOMESPOOL -USE_SETGID +USE_DOTLOCK -DL_STANDALONE +USE_FCNTL -USE_FLOCK +USE_POP +USE_IMAP -USE_GSS +USE_SSL -USE_SASL +HAVE_REGCOMP -USE_GNU_REGEX +HAVE_COLOR +HAVE_START_COLOR +HAVE_TYPEAHEAD +HAVE_BKGDSET +HAVE_CURS_SET +HAVE_META +HAVE_RESIZETERM +HAVE_PGP +BUFFY_SIZE -EXACT_ADDRESS +SUN_ATTACHMENT +ENABLE_NLS +LOCALES_HACK +HAVE_WC_FUNCS +HAVE_LANGINFO_CODESET +HAVE_LANGINFO_YESEXPR +HAVE_ICONV -ICONV_NONTRANS +HAVE_GETSID +HAVE_GETADDRINFO This is only partial information. In particular, it doesn't give default values that may depend on the configuration. They could be added though, but in this case, I don't see why one would give a possibly incorrect value in the manual. -- Vincent Lefèvre [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Web: http://www.vinc17.org/ - 100% validated (X)HTML - Acorn Risc PC, Yellow Pig 17, Championnat International des Jeux Mathématiques et Logiques, TETRHEX, etc. Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA
