Re: Cost per prefix [was: request for help w/ ATT and terminology]

2008-01-22 Thread William Herrin
On Jan 22, 2008 1:58 PM, Jon Lewis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Giving absolutely anyone who wants it PI space would make things much > worse...so I wouldn't call that artificial supression. It's more like > keeping the model sustainable. Jon, Its kinda like gas in the 70's. There wasn't enough

Re: Lessons from the AU model

2008-01-22 Thread Martin Barry
$quoted_author = "Tom Vest" ; > > Occasional rhetorical indulgences notwithstanding, I'm a pragmatist; an > ever-rising upper limit that 99% of the population never ever notices is > not much of a limit. Sure it is. By knowing that no-one sharing the backhaul to the DSLAM at my CO can afford t

Re: Cost per prefix [was: request for help w/ ATT and terminology]

2008-01-22 Thread Jon Lewis
On Tue, 22 Jan 2008, William Herrin wrote: Right now we rely on ARIN and the RIRs to artificially suppress the growth of the prefix count and with it the availability of PI space. If by artificially suppress, you mean anyone who wants it can't just fill out a form and be handed a portable /2

Re: Lessons from the AU model

2008-01-22 Thread Paul Vixie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Geoff Huston) writes: > Which is a roundabout way of saying that I'm very sceptical of Tom's > exponential optimism in this particular area of infrastructure investment > :-) the internet often hasn't made good economic sense. consider the chewage and swallowage of resources

Re: Lessons from the AU model

2008-01-22 Thread Sean Donelan
On Tue, 22 Jan 2008, Tom Vest wrote: Okay I concede that point; competition within markets with only metered service options can be just as or even more vigorous then competition within unmetered markets. But competition between metered and unmetered markets tends to reward the latter, and com

Re: Lessons from the AU model

2008-01-22 Thread Tom Vest
On Jan 22, 2008, at 3:01 AM, Mark Newton wrote: On 22/01/2008, at 3:59 PM, Tom Vest wrote: When the cable is full or EOL'ed its owner should have earned enough to build a new one at current market rates. I believe that someone will be able to "build" (i.e., finance) more, when/where mor

RE: Cost per prefix [was: request for help w/ ATT and terminology]

2008-01-22 Thread Michael K. Smith - Adhost
Hello Bill: > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > William Herrin > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 7:55 AM > To: nanog@merit.edu > Subject: Re: Cost per prefix [was: request for help w/ ATT and > terminology] > > > On Jan 21, 2008 10:28 P

RE: Cost per prefix [was: request for help w/ ATT and terminology]

2008-01-22 Thread andrew2
William Herrin wrote: > Right now we rely on ARIN and the RIRs to artificially suppress the > growth of the prefix count and with it the availability of PI space. > This is a Really Bad Thing on so many levels, but absent a viable > market-based solution to the problem, authority-based rationing i

Re: Cost per prefix [was: request for help w/ ATT and terminology]

2008-01-22 Thread Joe Greco
> The problem with William's calculation is that he is claiming the > _only_ difference between X & Y is "prefix count". (He said this, > more than once.) The only meaningful difference between X & Y for the purposes of this discussion _is_ prefix count. > He is dead wrong. No, he's quite

Re: Cost per prefix [was: request for help w/ ATT and terminology]

2008-01-22 Thread Bill Woodcock
Right now we rely on ARIN and the RIRs to artificially suppress the growth of the prefix count and with it the availability of PI space. If we can determine the cost to announce a prefix then we could develop a market-based solution to the problem... instead of suppressing the prefix count, we GET

Re: Cost per prefix [was: request for help w/ ATT and terminology]

2008-01-22 Thread William Herrin
On Jan 21, 2008 10:28 PM, Jon Lewis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Is there really any point in trying to put a $ figure on each route? Jon, Emphatically Yes! Right now we rely on ARIN and the RIRs to artificially suppress the growth of the prefix count and with it the availability of PI space. T

RE: Lessons from the AU model

2008-01-22 Thread Frank Bulk
We've figured our customer base ranges between 8 to 12 kbps/customer. Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alastair Johnson Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 4:09 AM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Lessons from the AU model Mark Newton

RE: An Attempt at Economically Rational Pricing: Time Warner Trial

2008-01-22 Thread Frank Bulk
I'm not struggling -- anyone else volunteer that they are? It costs to upgrade plant/equipment to meet traffic growth, but it's being done and no one is saying that their prices are going up. Even from the customer perspective, the bang for their buck has continued to rise. Frank -Original

Re: Lessons from the AU model

2008-01-22 Thread Sean Donelan
On Tue, 22 Jan 2008, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: Your analogy is halting, but that's to be expected. I certainly wouldn't want to pay more for the landlord to install metering everywhere. There is much overhead in metering and billing on that. I suspect you have never been a landlord or needed

Re: An Attempt at Economically Rational Pricing: Time Warner Trial

2008-01-22 Thread Scott McGrath
Consumers have been conditioned through advertising that 'bigger is better' so bigger numbers imply a better service in their minds. Look at the current flat panel TV size madness there is a formula for calculating the size of a display based on distance to the viewer I live in a older house

Re: Lessons from the AU model

2008-01-22 Thread Mikael Abrahamsson
On Tue, 22 Jan 2008, Sean Donelan wrote: If there was one tenant that left the hot water running 24 hours, 7 days a week; so other tenants complained they didn't get enough hot water. One That has never happened to me. We have good enough infrastructure that one tenant filling up their hot w

Re: Cost per prefix [was: request for help w/ ATT and terminology]

2008-01-22 Thread Patrick W. Gilmore
On Jan 21, 2008, at 6:14 PM, David Barak wrote: Wouldn't a reasonable approach be to take the sum of a 6500/ msfc2 and a 2851, and assume that the routing computation could be offloaded? The difficulty I have with this discussion is that the cost per prefix is zero until you need to chang

Re: Lessons from the AU model

2008-01-22 Thread Mark Newton
On 22/01/2008, at 7:30 PM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: I am also hesitant regarding billing when a person is being DDOS:ed. How is that handled in .AU? I can see billing being done on outgoing traffic from the customer because they can control that, but what about incoming, the customer has

Re: Lessons from the AU model

2008-01-22 Thread Sean Donelan
On Tue, 22 Jan 2008, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: I know of places in my nick of the world where all those are flat-rate. When the usage difference is small enough, metering is not effective. Ahh, the key phrase is "usage difference is small enough." Typical dorm here includes power, water, (gas

RE: Lessons from the AU model

2008-01-22 Thread Ben Butler
Or even Blue Security. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ben Butler Sent: 22 January 2008 10:26 To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: RE: Lessons from the AU model Hi, Regarding Dos filtering, I guess that really depends on whether we are talking

RE: Lessons from the AU model

2008-01-22 Thread Ben Butler
Hi, Regarding Dos filtering, I guess that really depends on whether we are talking about completing the attack and filtering in upstream transits, or, filtering source / traffic classification within the AS keeping the destination alive throughout the attack and utilising WAN/Transit bandwidth in

Re: Lessons from the AU model

2008-01-22 Thread Alastair Johnson
Mark Newton wrote: Despite the best efforts of some people to run their broadband access at line rate, residential broadband is very much a "CIR + burst" kind of service. All of our customers can burst to line rate (they're paying for it, so they should be able to get it). None of our custome

Re: Lessons from the AU model

2008-01-22 Thread Alastair Johnson
Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: Some claim that metering is 50% of cost in the telco industry, and I have no reason to doubt that. Staying out of metering saves money on all levels, less complex equipment, less supportcalls, less hassle with billing. I have to agree with this, although the figure

Re: Lessons from the AU model

2008-01-22 Thread Simon Lyall
On Tue, 22 Jan 2008, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > I am also hesitant regarding billing when a person is being DDOS:ed. How > is that handled in .AU? I can see billing being done on outgoing traffic > from the customer because they can control that, but what about incoming, > the customer has only p

Re: Lessons from the AU model

2008-01-22 Thread Simon Lyall
On Tue, 22 Jan 2008, Tom Vest wrote: > But even assuming you manage to define a "reasonable" cap, how will > you defend it against competitors, and how will you determine when & > how to adjust it (presumably upwards) as the basket of "typical" user > content and services gets beefier -- or will t

Re: Lessons from the AU model

2008-01-22 Thread Mikael Abrahamsson
On Tue, 22 Jan 2008, Mark Newton wrote: Power is metered. Water is metered. Gas is metered. Heating oil is metered. Even cable-TV is packaged so that you pay more if you want to use more channels... I know of places in my nick of the world where all those are flat-rate. When the usage di

Re: Lessons from the AU model

2008-01-22 Thread Mark Newton
On 22/01/2008, at 3:59 PM, Tom Vest wrote: When the cable is full or EOL'ed its owner should have earned enough to build a new one at current market rates. I believe that someone will be able to "build" (i.e., finance) more, when/where more is required. Faith-based network rollouts. Nea