is
another example formed from the ground up. There is more than
one way to do this. Which would you prefer as a role model,
the FCC or ARIN?
--Michael Dillon
P.S. ARIN itself has absolutely nothing to do with email
services and is unlikely to get involved in this in any
way. I am using them mainly
of round table discussion.
Who will take the first step? Perhaps the NANOG program committee?
--Michael Dillon
recipients
who had subscribed to that stream.
IP multicast is not the only way to do multicasting
on the Internet.
--Michael Dillon
be independent of the
power grid, i.e. a municipal generator that supplies only telecom
sites and data centers in a local area.
--Michael Dillon
of these outage reports because most real outages will
remain invisible to customers.
--Michael Dillon
the potential source of an email if there
is a desire to identify the perpetrator. Some people
might consider this to be a good thing.
--Michael Dillon
are you already have people with the skills
to do this whose time is not fully occupied in their
day job. If so, the marginal cost could be close to
zero.
--Michael Dillon
old and forgotten devices and systems are doing mission
critical jobs in your network?
--Michael Dillon
which *WILL* bite somebody
in the end.
--Michael Dillon
electrical train lines
are still shutdown.
All in all, this was a remarkable event. The causes were
identified so quickly. They recovered from the outage so
quickly. The country's major Internet exchange was shown
to be remarkably short-sighted.
--Michael Dillon
another example of why it is not a good idea to rely too
heavily on any centralized infrastructure or systems.
--Michael Dillon
flight centre in Korolev was functioning normally.
--Michael Dillon
, it is
not necessary to go to the IETF and argue with vendors
to get something implemented.
Not all problems should be solved inside a box with
Cisco or Juniper on written on it.
--Michael Dillon
%
overloaded on the BGP-speaking routers, why not
give network operators the tools to make their own
80-20 decisions about where this network management
function should be handled?
--Michael Dillon
which is intended to be translated
into the english word to form the domain name.
--Michael Dillon
ambiguity.
--Michael Dillon
terabyte drives like that one,
would you prefer to do it with unicast or with
a combination of multicast, peer-2-peer and CDNs?
Wireless offers the possibility of cheap, simple
multicast, depending on how it is configured.
--Michael Dillon
into what your customers
are actually doing with their Internet connections, you
will find it there.
--Michael Dillon
C'mon folks... let's get back to the usual complaining about the size of
the global routing table :)
Wow! A short message that only quotes the essential
points being responded to and doesn't leave pages of
irrelevant quotes following the poster's own words!
Amazing!
that banning is almost never needed.
IMHO limited speech is a form of freedom of speech and
cannot be compared to no speech, i.e. banning from the
list.
--Michael Dillon
that
knowledge with the FCC.
I know that people from the FCC, FBI, NSA and other agencies
attend NANOG meetings. How often do people from the NANOG world
attend FCC meetings to present possible solutions to issues?
--Michael Dillon
that the
downsides of per packet load balancing are publicized and PPLB
can be deprecated.
--Michael Dillon
their address)? A quick knee-jerk fix
will only create new problems and muddy the waters further if
it is presented as the ultimate solution.
--Michael Dillon
facto
standards based on them.
However, Jay Ashworth has now set up the Best Practices wiki at
http://bestpractices.wikicities.com/wiki/Main_Page
Perhaps that is a better place to have these technical
arguments?
--Michael Dillon
.
--Michael Dillon
.
Think about it...
;-)
--Michael Dillon
P.S. My company happens to carry large amounts of RSS-like data
using IP-multicast. You may have heard of this RSS-like system
invented back in the 1870's under the name of ticker tape.
Nowadays NYSE, NASDAQ and other markets still distribute tick
data
to
offer different services rather than have a regulated
environment that says that ISPs MUST offer a specific service
in a specific way. I want choices.
--Michael Dillon
else
will just have to get used to repeated cost-cutting exercises.
--Michael Dillon
carrier than two.
Note that many carriers, though perhaps not the LECs, will answer
questions about the underlying resources they are using if they are
sufficiently motivated, but you have to reask every now and again to
make sure that the answers are still satisfactory.
Agreed.
--Michael Dillon
, nobody suggested my numbers were too low
or too high. I suppose that is a rough and ready tacit
approval of my rough and ready rules of thumb.
--Michael Dillon
P.S. Let's hope that Jay gets his Mediawiki off the ground
so that we can develop other best practice rules in a
format that makes it easy
the same conduit, then you do NOT have separacy and as
a result, the redundancy is not there.
Of course, you can get separacy with two carriers but
it is generally more work to verify that the two companies
do not share fibre or conduit or tunnels.
--Michael Dillon
Networks) to interconnect mission-critical
data centers in the same metropolitan area.
--Michael Dillon
a million inhabitants.
5 paths is enough for a population center with over
a million inhabitants.
And a very few population centers such as New York,
London, Tokyo, and Cheyenne Mountain should probably
have more than 5 paths.
--Michael Dillon
decades
of network building and consolidation. It would
be interesting if this type of research compared
the network's topology to the topology of villages,
market towns and cities which is remarkably uniform
across continents and civilizations.
--Michael Dillon
addresses as the recursive DNS servers on other networks?
Or are you suggesting that a network operator should set
up anycast internal to their network so that all of their
recursive DNS servers share the same IP address?
I'd like to hear some more detail on this.
--Michael Dillon
services
like DNS resolution.
--Michael Dillon
groups themselves.
ICANN is not perfect but it is hard to see anything
wrong with this particular action.
--Michael Dillon
discussions to move to the appropriate list. There is no
reason why the NANOG community needs to limit itself to
a single-focus mailing list and a single-track conference.
--Michael Dillon
posted a regular
headlines update from his blog, either daily, or
whenever some reasonable number of articles has
accumulated, say half a dozen.
His service is a real value-add and it is a good
idea to incorporate some more of the latest Internet
communication tools into NANOG.
--Michael Dillon
to configure devices? Perhaps if they were defined
in a protocol feed of some sort, like DNS, then device manufacturers
would make their devices autoconfigure using that feed?
--Michael Dillon
if telephone set manufacturers would
start supplying hot-line emergency phones with a
ringer-off switch and the warning notice embedded
in the plastic. They could be sold in a set with
a new-fangled SIP phone.
--Michael Dillon
at Thanksgiving, plug into her broadband
router
and need to call for assistance, it would just work.
Of course there is the little matter of a national E-911 center to accept
the calls, decode the GPS info, and dispatch the call correctly...
--Michael Dillon
and
use that when it connects to the net again.
--Michael Dillon
P.S. assuming that phones like this come on the market,
we might see the following exchange on a web forum
somewhere...
Q. Hi. My ACME VoIP Phone is complaining that it
can't provide E-911 service. I reset it, pulled
the plug
of latency
or a hierarchy of jitter. The more views, the merrier.
--Michael Dillon
if you want this feature, tell ARIN about it!
--Michael Dillon
P.S. there is an upcoming RIPE meeting in Stockholm
at the end of May. As above, tell them that this
is important for them to be doing.
to their accomplishments
back in the 90's? I would have thought, that tough
economic times would spur people to greater innovation
not less.
--Michael Dillon
.
In any case, it is not important how the message
gets communicated to ARIN. What is important is for
network operators to *TELL* ARIN what they need ARIN
to do. One way to talk to ARIN is through the public
meetings and another way is to email one of the
trustees.
--Michael Dillon
network operators fear ARIN and think
that ARIN carries a big stick like the FCC. The fault is not
with the people involved in ARIN; the fault is with the majority
of IP network operators who do not get involved with ARIN.
--Michael Dillon
confuse the ARIN staff
with the ARIN membership organization.
That's why I didn't mention the staff and repeatedly
pointed the finger at the apathy of the IP network
operators who form ARIN's membership.
--Michael Dillon
. Can you imagine an Internet service
in which parents subscribe to various channels by
choosing from a menu of whitelists? I can.
This is not your father's Internet any more...
--Michael Dillon
.
The terminology of tier 1 and tier 2 only refers to
a brief time in the evolution of the Internet in North
America during the 1990s when the topology was much
more treelike. That is all changed.
Go to google and search the following line exactly as written.
internet topology partial mesh
--Michael
as an Internet network engineer
because there are no published best practices for Internet
network engineering and there is no formal oversight for
Internet network engineering. This is the fundamental problem
in Internet operations today. Too many cowboys and Wile E Coyotes.
--Michael Dillon
P.S
presentations at NANOG meetings and a lot of chasing people in
hallway discussions to get them to contribute.
However, it could work and I'm glad that you suggested this
because it is a nice incremental and evolutionary technique
to collect and publish the knowledge of the profession.
--Michael Dillon
are not acting on the basis of bogus information.
--Michael Dillon
to fill using non-standard
software.
--Michael Dillon
adhere
to those best practices?
If there is one thing that will stop telecoms regulators
from attempting to regulate the Internet, it is this.
The technical term is industry self regulation.
--Michael Dillon
significant geographical diversity. There are many
ways to do this ranging from renting colo for
a server somewhere http://www.vix.com/personalcolo/
or working out a mutual arrangement with another
ISP http://www.dnsist.net/
--Michael Dillon
requires that you have
a base phone number that is within your E-911 region
that doesn't seem like a problem to me since you can
have any number of virtual phone numbers in addition
to the base number.
--Michael Dillon
. Verizon could sell exactly the
same sort of service to subscribers in California leveraging
the Internet last mile in exactly the same way as Vonage.
Vonage and Verizon are just phone companies, not VoIP
companies.
--Michael Dillon
person's definition of parasitic is another
person's definition of unbundled services.
--Michael Dillon
if NANOG
does a VoIP track/theme.
--Michael Dillon
.
--Michael Dillon
at the problem from
a high level, not down in the greasy gearboxes.
Dave's draft can be a bit inscrutable, but he
is at least trying to document the overall
architecture so that we can talk clearly about
how to manage it in a way that provides a
high quality email service to the end user.
--Michael Dillon
.
--Michael Dillon
.
We need the right packets in the right place at
the right time, and only the right packets.
--Michael Dillon
. If that quality standard includes
maintaining and using an audit trail, then the association
members will do so.
You cannot solve email operational problems by purely
technical means.
--Michael Dillon
and public organization that I have been
calling the Internet Mail Services Association. This will mean
less red tape, more transparency, and more accountability.
--Michael Dillon
It's time to take this thread to SPAM-L or
some other spam oriented list.
I strongly disagree. This thread has not been
about spam. For the most part it has dealt with
technical operational issues of email services
and therefore it is right on track for this list.
--Michael Dillon
tell them so that they can
correct their whois server. LACNIC does have English
language capability.
--Michael Dillon
P.S. The whole concept of looking up an abuse contact
in a whois database is completely broken and needs
to be scrapped. It simply does not scale. We need
some hierarchy here
users, or we will
all be implementing ITU email standards to comply
with new legislation.
--Michael Dillon
Former chief privacy officer of Gator has been appointed to the Data
Privacy and Integrity Advisory Committee of the Department of Homeland
Security.
http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2005/02/23/gator/index.html?source=RSS
--Michael Dillon
the report itself is linked to from
http://www.itu.int/wsis/wgig/index.html
Many of you may find it more interesting and
useful to read through and comment upon one
or two of the working papers posted here:
http://wgig.org/working-papers.html
I would hope that people with special expertise
/email.html
No archive yet that I can see...
--Michael Dillon
Aha! So there really is more stuff hidden away on that
site for the chosen few. Perception is reality, eh?
--Michael Dillon
but rather a general
comment on behavior which is widespread on this list.
It's the middle of the noughties now and the Internet has
grown up. We need to move on and restructure our forums and
organizations to better meet the needs of the industry
and the IP network operations community.
--Michael
I have a 3640 that while booting up gives the errors below at the
console,
And I have a web page in front of me which says,
cisco-nsp -- list for people using cisco in a NSP (Network service
provider) environment
https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/cisco-nsp
I know what I would do if
that people should be asking questions.
I don't think it is wise to run out and slap
rate limits on mail infrastructure without
thinking through the implications.
--Michael Dillon
. They just browse
the web and use IM. Why should you, the operator,
allow those customers to inject huge numbers of
email systems into the Internet as botnet drones?
1000 a day is way too high, IMHO.
--Michael Dillon
layer of indirection actually strengthens the
system and protects Cymru from becoming too
important.
--Michael Dillon
of more network operators.
I hope that the NANOG reform discussion spends a good
bit of its time on articulating a vision for the future
of a membership-based NANOG organization, and not worry
so much about past problems.
--Michael Dillon
the carrier's job by requesting
GIS data, tell them you want to buy physical seperacy
as a product. Get them to do the work and show you the
data to prove that they really are delivering physical
seperacy.
--Michael Dillon
attention to the problem, I think we should
ignore spam and focus on making a better email
architecture that people can actually use again.
--Michael Dillon
to using the secure mail architecture
and won't see most of it. When the spammers also shift, there will
be more tools to track them down or shut them down or simply to rate
limit them.
--Michael Dillon
without transitting your ISP?
Or did you just mean freedom of communication
in a rhetorical sense?
And if you will trust an ISP to deliver port 25
packets then why wouldn't you trust them to
deliver email messages?
--Michael Dillon
of advertising their product, then
only criminals will use spam. The arms race continues...
--Michael Dillon
. After you finally made contact with
Austrian Telecom, did you tell them about
the inoc-dba system and direct them to
the URL with information about how to
get connected?
--Michael Dillon
-technical issue. If
someone else is causing your network increased costs,
send them a bill, talk to your lawyer, whatever.
But keep it off NANOG.
--Michael Dillon
(with only half of my tongue in cheek)
DNS configuration.
Seems to me that anycast is a worthwhile thing
and certainly justifies moving from n+12
to n+11 or n+10 in the DNS.
But anycast should not be considered a replacement
for the tried and tested DNS protocol redundancy.
Maybe in 5 years or so, but not today.
--Michael Dillon
accurate
contact info exists in the RIR whois directories.
As for domain name registries, they are not
terribly relevant for operations, just for serving
legal documents.
--Michael Dillon
.
--Michael Dillon
.
--Michael Dillon
--Michael Dillon
table growth
had halted http://www.netsys.com/library/papers/cengiz-bgp-2002-08.pdf
many people probably thought that the problem had
been solved forever by the telecom collapse.
--Michael Dillon
of a problem involving lots of customers, you really
need to put a good techie and a good marketing person
together to brainstorm ideas. On their own, neither
can solve the problem.
--Michael Dillon
but you still
might like to know who is trying to announce
these bogon blocks to you.
--Michael Dillon
on their network,
then a case can be made for depeering (or severely damping)
networks that don't clean up their act.
--Michael Dillon
.
--Michael Dillon
on what you find.
I think a lot of people would be interested
in this type of unit.
--Michael Dillon
% of the design work on this
is available out there on the web. You just
need someone willing to put it all together
and manufacture the boxes.
For an alternative approach, have a look
at Netguardian. http://www.dpstele.com/products/ne/netguardian/
High capacity SNMP Alarm connector, NEBS 3, etc.
--Michael
and globally unique ASNs. This
is not your father's Internet anymore.
--Michael Dillon
not work unless
the RIRs plan and enforce the geographical hierarchy.
On the other hand, this is well within the capabilities
of the RIRs (and the NRO) to implement.
--Michael Dillon
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