Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 12:50:32 -0400 (EDT) Sean Donelan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Comcast's network is QOS DSCP enabled, as are many other large provider > networks. Enterprise customers use QOS DSCP all the time. However, the > net neutrality battles last year made it politically impossible

RE: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

stream links. Regards, Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sean Donelan Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 6:31 PM To: Mohacsi Janos Cc: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks? On Sat, 27

RE: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

. 954-298-1697 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sean Donelan Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 12:34 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: RE: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks? On Mon, 29 Oct 2007, Fred Reimer wrote: > That a

RE: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

> When we put the application intelligence in the network. We > have to upgrade the network to support new applications. I > believe that's a mistake from the application innovation angle. Putting middleboxes into an ISP is not the same thing as putting intelligence into the network. Think Akam

RE: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Mon, 29 Oct 2007, Fred Reimer wrote: That and the fact that an ISP would be aiding and abetting illegal activities, in the eyes of the RIAA and MPAA. That's not to say that technically it would not be better, but that it will never happen due to political and legal issues, IMO. As always c

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> And of course, if you still believe just adding bandwidth >> will solve the problems > > Joe St. Sauver probably said it best when he pointed out in slide 5 here > >the "N-body" problem

RE: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

leman Technologies, Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stefan Bethke Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 8:37 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks? [EMAIL PROTECTED] sc

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: If P2P software relied on an ISP middlebox to mediate the transfers, then each middlebox could optimize the local situation by using a whole smorgasbord of tools. Are there any examples of middleware being adopted by the market? To me, it looks like the clear trend

RE: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

> And of course, if you still believe just adding bandwidth > will solve the problems Joe St. Sauver probably said it best when he pointed out in slide 5 here the "N-body" problem can be a complex problem to try to

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Sun, 28 Oct 2007, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: If you performed a simple Google search, you would have discovered many universities around the world having similar problems. The university network engineers are saying adding capacity alone isn't solving their problems. You're welcome to prov

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Sun, 28 Oct 2007, Sean Donelan wrote: If you performed a simple Google search, you would have discovered many universities around the world having similar problems. The university network engineers are saying adding capacity alone isn't solving their problems. You're welcome to provide p

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Sun, 28 Oct 2007, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: Why artificially keep access link speeds low just to prevent upstream network congestion? Why can't you have big access links? You're the one that says that statistical overbooking doesn't work, not anyone else. If you performed a simple Googl

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On 26 okt 2007, at 18:29, Sean Donelan wrote: And generating packets with false address information is more acceptable? I don't buy it. When a network is congested, someone is going to be upset about any possible response. That doesn't mean all possible responses are equally acceptable.

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Sat, 27 Oct 2007, Sean Donelan wrote: Why artificially keep access link speeds low just to prevent upstream network congestion? Why can't you have big access links? You're the one that says that statistical overbooking doesn't work, not anyone else. Since I know people that offer 100/1

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Sat, 27 Oct 2007, Mohacsi Janos wrote: Agreed. Measures, like NAT, spoofing based accelerators, quarantining computers are developed for fairly small networks. No for 1Gbps and above and 20+ sites/customers. "small" is a relative term. Hong Kong is already selling 1Gbps access links to re

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On 10/22/07 2:01 AM, "Mikael Abrahamsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Could someone who knows DOCSIS 3.0 (perhaps these are general > DOCSIS questions) enlighten me (and others?) by responding to a few things > I have been thinking about. > > Let's say cable provider is worried about aggregate u

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

> > On Fri, 26 Oct 2007, Paul Ferguson wrote: > > The part of this discussion that really infuriates me (and Joe > > Greco has hit most of the salient points) is the deceptiveness > > in how ISPs "underwrite" the service their customers subscribe to. > > > > For instance, in our data centers, we

RE: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Fri, 26 Oct 2007, Paul Ferguson wrote: The part of this discussion that really infuriates me (and Joe Greco has hit most of the salient points) is the deceptiveness in how ISPs "underwrite" the service their customers subscribe to. For instance, in our data centers, we have 1Gb uplinks to ou

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Fri, 26 Oct 2007, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: If Comcast had used Sandvine's other capabilities to inspect and drop particular packets, would that have been more acceptable? Yes, definately. So another in-line device is better than an out-of-band device. ... but terminating the connection

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Fri, 26 Oct 2007, Sean Donelan wrote: If Comcast had used Sandvine's other capabilities to inspect and drop particular packets, would that have been more acceptable? Yes, definately. Dropping random packets (i.e. FIFO queue, RED, not good on multiple-flows) Dropping particular packets (i

RE: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 - -- "Jamie Bowden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >It would seem that the state of NY agrees with you: > >http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/20981 The part of this discussion that really infuriates me (and Joe Greco has hit most of the salient

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Fri, 26 Oct 2007, Paul Ferguson wrote: No, I'm talking about deceptive marketing practices, consumer expectations, and customer retention. From the Comcast order page: Actual speeds may vary and are not guaranteed. Many factors affect download speed. From the Trend Micro order pag

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 - -- Sean Donelan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >On Fri, 26 Oct 2007, Paul Ferguson wrote: >> As a consumer/customer, I say "Don't sell it it if you can't >> deliver it." And not just "sometimes" or "only during foo time". >> >> All the time. Regardless

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Fri, 26 Oct 2007, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: And generating packets with false address information is more acceptable? I don't buy it. When a network is congested, someone is going to be upset about any possible response. Within the limitations the network operator has, using a TCP RST

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Fri, 26 Oct 2007, Joe Greco wrote: So, what happens when you add sufficient capacity to the packet switch network that it is able to deliver committed bandwidth to all users? Answer: by adding capacity, you've created a packet switched network where you actually get dedicated capacity for yo

RE: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Ferguson Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 12:19 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks? -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 - -- Sean Donelan <[EMAIL PROTECTED

RE: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

MAIL PROTECTED] Cc: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks? -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 - -- Sean Donelan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >When 5% of the users don't play nicely with the rest of the 95% of >the users; how can net

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

> From: "Geo." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Subject: Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks? > Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 06:18:01 -0400 > > > > > The problem is that ISPs work under the assumption that users only > > use a certa

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

> Rep. Boucher's solution: more capacity, even though it has been > demonstrated many times more capacity doesn't actually solve this > particular problem. That would seem to be an inaccurate statement. > Is there something in humans that makes it difficult to understand > the difference betwe

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

The problem is that ISPs work under the assumption that users only use a certain percentage of their available bandwidth, while (some) users work under the assumption that they get to use all their available bandwidth 24/7 if they choose to do so. My home dsl is 6mb/384k, so what exactly

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

Sean Donelan wrote: When 5% of the users don't play nicely with the rest of the 95% of the users; how can network operators manage the network so every user receives a fair share of the network capacity? This question keeps getting asked in this thread. What is there about a scavenger class (ba

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On 25-okt-2007, at 18:50, Sean Donelan wrote: Comcast's network is QOS DSCP enabled, as are many other large provider networks. Enterprise customers use QOS DSCP all the time. However, the net neutrality battles last year made it politically impossible for providers to say they use QOS i

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

> On Fri, Oct 26, 2007, Paul Ferguson wrote: > > If I'm sitting at the end of 8Mb/768k cable modem link, and paying > > for it, I should damned well be able to use it anytime I want. > > > > 24x7. > > > > As a consumer/customer, I say "Don't sell it it if you can't > > deliver it." And not just

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Fri, 26 Oct 2007, Sean Donelan wrote: When 5% of the users don't play nicely with the rest of the 95% of the users; how can network operators manage the network so every user receives a fair share of the network capacity? By making sure that the 5% of users upstream capacity doesn't cause

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Fri, Oct 26, 2007, Paul Ferguson wrote: > If I'm sitting at the end of 8Mb/768k cable modem link, and paying > for it, I should damned well be able to use it anytime I want. > > 24x7. > > As a consumer/customer, I say "Don't sell it it if you can't > deliver it." And not just "sometimes" or

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Fri, 26 Oct 2007, Paul Ferguson wrote: As a consumer/customer, I say "Don't sell it it if you can't deliver it." And not just "sometimes" or "only during foo time". All the time. Regardless of my applications. I'm paying for it. I think you have confused a circuit switch network with a pac

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 - -- Sean Donelan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >When 5% of the users don't play nicely with the rest of the 95% of >the users; how can network operators manage the network so every user >receives a fair share of the network capacity? I don't know if t

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Thu, 25 Oct 2007, Marshall Eubanks wrote: I don't follow this, on a statistical average. This is P2P, right ? So if I send you a piece of a file this will go out my door once, and in your door once, after a certain (& finite !) number of hops (i.e., transmissions to and from other peers).

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Oct 25, 2007, at 1:09 PM, Sean Donelan wrote: On Thu, 25 Oct 2007, Marshall Eubanks wrote: I have raised this issue with P2P promoters, and they all feel that the limit will be about at the limit of what people can watch (i.e., full rate video for whatever duration they want to watch su

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Thu, 25 Oct 2007, Marshall Eubanks wrote: I have raised this issue with P2P promoters, and they all feel that the limit will be about at the limit of what people can watch (i.e., full rate video for whatever duration they want to watch such, at somewhere between 1 and 10 Mbps). From that reg

RE: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Thu, 25 Oct 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Where has it been proven that adding capacity won't solve the P2P bandwidth problem? I'm aware that some studies have shown that P2P demand increases when capacity is added, but I am not aware that anyone has attempted to see if there is an upper lim

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Oct 25, 2007, at 12:24 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Rep. Boucher's solution: more capacity, even though it has been demonstrated many times more capacity doesn't actually solve this particular problem. Where has it been proven that adding capacity won't solve the P2P bandwidth problem

RE: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

> Rep. Boucher's solution: more capacity, even though it has > been demonstrated many times more capacity doesn't actually > solve this particular problem. Where has it been proven that adding capacity won't solve the P2P bandwidth problem? I'm aware that some studies have shown that P2P demand

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Wed, 24 Oct 2007, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: The result is network engineering by politician, and many reasonable things can no longer be done. I don't see that. Here come the Congresspeople. After ICANN, next legistlative IETF standards for what is acceptable network management. htt

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Wed, 24 Oct 2007, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: There are many "reasonable" things providers could do. So then why to you stick up for Comcast when they do something unreasonable? Although yesterday there was a little more info and it seems they only stop the affected protocols temporarily,

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On 23-okt-2007, at 19:43, Sean Donelan wrote: The problem here is that they seem to be using a sledge hammer: BitTorrent is essentially left dead in the water. And they deny doing anything, to boot. A reasonable approach would be to throttle the offending applications to make them fit in

RE: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

t.edu Subject: Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks? Frank, The problem caching solves in this situation is much less complex than what you are speaking of. Caching toward your client base brings down your transit costs (if you have any)or lowers congestion in congested are

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Tue, 23 Oct 2007, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: The problem here is that they seem to be using a sledge hammer: BitTorrent is essentially left dead in the water. And they deny doing anything, to boot. A reasonable approach would be to throttle the offending applications to make them fit insi

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

Joe Provo wrote: >A provider-hosted solution which > managed to transparently handle this across multiple clients and > trackers would likely be popular with the end users. but not with the rights holders... J -- COO Entanet International T: 0870 770 9580 W: http://www.enta.net/ L: http://ti

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On 10/23/07, Joe Provo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 at 01:18:01PM +0200, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > > > > On 22-okt-2007, at 18:12, Sean Donelan wrote: > > > > The problem here is that they seem to be using a sledge hammer: > > BitTorrent is essentially left dead in the

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: On 23-okt-2007, at 15:43, Sam Stickland wrote: What I would like is a system where there are two diffserv traffic classes: normal and scavenger-like. When a user trips some predefined traffic limit within a certain period, all their traffic is put in the scavenger

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Tue, Oct 23, 2007 at 01:18:01PM +0200, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > > On 22-okt-2007, at 18:12, Sean Donelan wrote: > > >Network operators probably aren't operating from altruistic > >principles, but for most network operators when the pain isn't > >spread equally across the the customer

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On 23-okt-2007, at 15:43, Sam Stickland wrote: What I would like is a system where there are two diffserv traffic classes: normal and scavenger-like. When a user trips some predefined traffic limit within a certain period, all their traffic is put in the scavenger bucket which takes a back

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Oct 23, 2007, at 9:07 AM, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: On 23-okt-2007, at 14:52, Marshall Eubanks wrote: I also would like to see a UDP scavenger service, for those applications that generate lots of bits but can tolerate fairly high packet losses without replacement. (VLBI, for exampl

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: On 22-okt-2007, at 18:12, Sean Donelan wrote: Network operators probably aren't operating from altruistic principles, but for most network operators when the pain isn't spread equally across the the customer base it represents a "fairness" issue. If 490 customer

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On 23-okt-2007, at 14:52, Marshall Eubanks wrote: I also would like to see a UDP scavenger service, for those applications that generate lots of bits but can tolerate fairly high packet losses without replacement. (VLBI, for example, can in principle live with 10% packet loss without much

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Oct 23, 2007, at 7:18 AM, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: On 22-okt-2007, at 18:12, Sean Donelan wrote: Network operators probably aren't operating from altruistic principles, but for most network operators when the pain isn't spread equally across the the customer base it represents a

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On 22-okt-2007, at 18:12, Sean Donelan wrote: Network operators probably aren't operating from altruistic principles, but for most network operators when the pain isn't spread equally across the the customer base it represents a "fairness" issue. If 490 customers are complaining about bad

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

2, 2007 7:42 PM To: "'Rich Groves'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Subject: RE: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks? I don't see how this Oversi caching solution will work with today's HFC deployments -- the demodulation happens in the CMTS, not in the field.

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

quot; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 12:24 AM To: Subject: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks? Much of the same content is available through NNTP, HTTP and P2P. The content part gets a lot of attention and outrage, but network engineers seem to be res

RE: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rich Groves Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 3:06 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks? I'm a bit late to this conversation but I wanted to throw out a few bits of info not covered. A company called

RE: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mikael Abrahamsson Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 1:02 AM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks? On Sun, 21 Oct 2007, Eric Spaeth wrote: > They have.

RE: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

al Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jack Bates Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 12:35 PM To: Bora Akyol Cc: Sean Donelan; nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks? Bora Akyol wrote: > 1) Legal Liability due to the

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

D]> Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 12:24 AM To: Subject: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks? Much of the same content is available through NNTP, HTTP and P2P. The content part gets a lot of attention and outrage, but network engineers seem to be responding to something else.

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

Bora Akyol wrote: 1) Legal Liability due to the content being swapped. This is not a technical matter IMHO. Instead of sending an icmp host unreachable, they are closing the connection via spoofing. I think it's kinder than just dropping the packets all together. 2) The breakdown of networ

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

I see your point. The main problem I see with the traffic shaping or worse boxes is that comcast/ATT/... Sells a particular bandwidth to the customer. Clearly, they don't provision their network as Number_Customers*Data_Rate, they provision it to a data rate capability that is much less than the m

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007, Bora Akyol wrote: I think network operators that are using boxes like the Sandvine box are doing this due to (2). This is because P2P traffic hits them where it hurts, aka the pocketbook. I am sure there are some altruistic network operators out there, but I would be sincere

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

Sean I don't think this is an issue of "fairness." There are two issues at play here: 1) Legal Liability due to the content being swapped. This is not a technical matter IMHO. 2) The breakdown of network engineering assumptions that are made when network operators are designing networks. I thi

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

* Adrian Chadd: > So which ISPs have contributed towards more intelligent p2p content > routing and distribution; stuff which'd play better with their > networks? Perhaps Internet2, with its DC++ hubs? 8-P I think the problem is that better "routing" (Bittorrent content is *not* routed by the p

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

Sean Donelan wrote: Much of the same content is available through NNTP, HTTP and P2P. The content part gets a lot of attention and outrage, but network engineers seem to be responding to something else. If its not the content, why are network engineers at many university networks, enterpri

NNTP vs P2P (Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?)

Adrian Chadd wrote: [..] > Here's the real question. If an open source protocol for p2p content > routing and distribution appeared? It is called NNTP, it exists and is heavily used for doing exactly where most people use P2P for: Warezing around without legal problems. NNTP is of course "nice" t

RE: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

> Would stronger topological sharing be beneficial? If so, how do you > suggest end users software get access to the information required to > make these decisions in an informed manner? I would think simply looking at the TTL of packets from it's peers should be sufficient to decide who is c

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Tue, Oct 23, 2007, Perry Lorier wrote: > Would having a way to proxy p2p downloads via an ISP proxy be used by > ISPs and not abused as an additional way to shutdown and limit p2p > usage? If so how would clients discover these proxies or should they be > manually configured? http://www.a

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

Will P2P applications really never learn to play nicely on the network? So from an operations perspective, how should P2P protocols be designed? There appears that the current solution at the moment is for ISP's to put up barriers to P2P usage (like comcasts spoof'd RSTs), and thus P2P

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Sun, Oct 21, 2007 at 10:45:49PM -0400, Geo. wrote: [snip] > Second, the more people on your network running fileshare network software > and sharing, the less backbone bandwidth your users are going to use when > downloading from a fileshare network because those on your network are > going

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

H... me wonders how you know this for fact? Last time I took the time to snoop a running torrent, I didn't get the the impression it was pulling packets from the same country as I, let alone my network neighbors. That would be totally dependent on what tracker you use. Geo.

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

One of the things to remember is that many customers are simply looking for Internet access, but couldn't tell a megabit from a mackerel. That may have been true 5 years ago, it's not true today. People learn. Here's an interesting issue. I recently learned that the local RR affiliate has

RE: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

> > > It's a network > > > operations thing... why should Comcast provide a fat pipe for the > > > rest of the world to benefit from? Just my $.02. > > > > Because their customers PAY them to provide that fat pipe? > > You are correct, customers pay Comcast to provide a fat pipe > for THEIR us

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On 10/22/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > It's a network > > operations thing... why should Comcast provide a fat pipe for > > the rest of the world to benefit from? Just my $.02. > > Because their customers PAY them to provide that fat pipe? You are correct, customers pay

RE: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

> So which ISPs have contributed towards more intelligent p2p > content routing and distribution; stuff which'd play better > with their networks? > Or are you all busy being purely reactive? > > Surely one ISP out there has to have investigated ways that > p2p could co-exist with their netwo

RE: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

> It's a network > operations thing... why should Comcast provide a fat pipe for > the rest of the world to benefit from? Just my $.02. Because their customers PAY them to provide that fat pipe? --Michael Dillon

[admin] Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks? and Re: Comcast blocking p2p uploads

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007, Randy Bush wrote: > actually, it would be really helpful to the masses uf us who are being > liberal with our delete keys if someone would summarize the two threads, > comcast p2p management and 204/4. 240/4 has been summarized before: Look for email with "MLC Note" in subje

Re: [admin] Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks? and Re: Comcast blocking p2p uploads

actually, it would be really helpful to the masses uf us who are being liberal with our delete keys if someone would summarize the two threads, comcast p2p management and 204/4. randy

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Sun, 21 Oct 2007, Eric Spaeth wrote: They have. Enter DOCSIS 3.0. The problem is that the benefits of DOCSIS 3.0 will only come after they've allocated more frequency space, upgraded their CMTS hardware, upgraded their HFC node hardware where necessary, and replaced subscriber modems w

[admin] Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks? and Re: Comcast blocking p2p uploads

[note that this post also relates to the thread Re: Comcast blocking p2p uploads] While both discussions started out as operational, most of the mail traffic is things that are not very much related to technology or operations. To clarify, things like these are on-topic: * Whether p2p protoc

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

Jim Popovitch wrote: > On Sun, 2007-10-21 at 22:45 -0400, Geo. wrote: >> Second, the more people on your network running fileshare network software >> and sharing, the less backbone bandwidth your users are going to use when >> downloading from a fileshare network because those on your network a

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Sun, 2007-10-21 at 22:45 -0400, Geo. wrote: > Second, the more people on your network running fileshare network software > and sharing, the less backbone bandwidth your users are going to use when > downloading from a fileshare network because those on your network are going > to supply full

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

> > Surely one ISP out there has to have investigated ways that p2p could > > co-exist with their network.. > > Some ideas from one small ISP. > > First, fileshare networks drive the need for bandwidth, and since an ISP > sells bandwidth that should be viewed as good for business because you >

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

Surely one ISP out there has to have investigated ways that p2p could co-exist with their network.. Some ideas from one small ISP. First, fileshare networks drive the need for bandwidth, and since an ISP sells bandwidth that should be viewed as good for business because you aren't going to

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Sun, Oct 21, 2007, Christopher E. Brown wrote: > Where is there a need to go beyond simple remarking and WRED? Marking > P2P as scavenger class and letting the existing QoS configs in the > network deal with it works well. Because the p2p client authors (and users!) are out to maximise throu

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 12:55:08PM +1300, Simon Lyall wrote: > On Sun, 21 Oct 2007, Sean Donelan wrote: > > Its not just the greedy commercial ISPs, its also universities, > > non-profits, government, co-op, etc networks. It doesn't seem to matter > > if the network has 100Mbps user connections o

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 08:08:47AM +0800, Adrian Chadd wrote: [snip] > So which ISPs have contributed towards more intelligent p2p content > routing and distribution; stuff which'd play better with their networks? > Or are you all busy being purely reactive? A quick google search found the one

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Mon, 2007-10-22 at 12:55 +1300, Simon Lyall wrote: > The problem is that the customers are using too much traffic for what is > provisioned. Nope. Not sure where you got that from. With P2P, it's others outside the Comcast network that are over saturating the Comcast customers' bandwidth.

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Oct 22, 2007, at 7:50 AM, Sean Donelan wrote: Will P2P applications really never learn to play nicely on the network? Here are some more specific questions: Is some of the difficulty perhaps related to the seemingly unconstrained number of potential distribution points in systems of

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On 10/21/07, Sean Donelan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Mon, 22 Oct 2007, Simon Lyall wrote: > > So stop whinging about how bitorrent broke your happy Internet, Stop > > putting in traffic shaping boxes that break TCP and then complaining > > that p2p programmes don't follow the specs and adj

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007, Simon Lyall wrote: So stop whinging about how bitorrent broke your happy Internet, Stop putting in traffic shaping boxes that break TCP and then complaining that p2p programmes don't follow the specs and adjust your pricing and service to match your costs. Folks in New Zea

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Mon, Oct 22, 2007, Simon Lyall wrote: > So stop whinging about how bitorrent broke your happy Internet, Stop > putting in traffic shaping boxes that break TCP and then complaining > that p2p programmes don't follow the specs and adjust your pricing and > service to match your costs. So which

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

On Sun, 21 Oct 2007, Sean Donelan wrote: > Its not just the greedy commercial ISPs, its also universities, > non-profits, government, co-op, etc networks. It doesn't seem to matter > if the network has 100Mbps user connections or 128Kbps user connection, > they all seem to be having problems with

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

> Joe Greco wrote: > > Well, because when you promise someone an Internet connection, they usually > > expect it to work. Is it reasonable for Comcast to unilaterally decide that > > my P2P filesharing of my family photos and video clips is bad? > > > > Comcast is currently providing 1GB of w

Re: Can P2P applications learn to play fair on networks?

> Is it reasonable for your filesharing of your family photos and video > clips to cause problems for all the other users of the network? Is that > fair or just greedy? It's damn well fair, is what it is. Is it somehow better for me to go and e-mail the photos and movies around? What if I re

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