On Sep 12, 2006, at 4:22 PM, Fred Baker wrote:
IP Addresses have always been treated as a resource of the network
since its inception. The fact that lawmakers don't understand or
care to understand doesn't change the facts of the case.
I'm sure the same argument was used for telephone
David Conrad wrote:
I'm sure the same argument was used for telephone numbers when technical
folk were arguing against number portability.
Number portability is a different can of worms, and many telephone companies
pushed for it. However, telephone numbers have been assigned in large
On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 05:37:05 -0700
David Conrad [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm sure the same argument was used for telephone numbers when
technical folk were arguing against number portability.
Oh come on. You know perfectly well that phone numbers are not the
same as IP. No one knows me by
On Wed, Sep 13, 2006 at 11:43:36AM -0400,
D'Arcy J.M. Cain darcy@druid.net wrote
a message of 20 lines which said:
No one knows me by my IP address. They know me by my email
address(es).
It does not seem true. IP addresses are visible outside in:
* DNS servers when you get a zone
On Sep 13, 2006, at 8:43 AM, D'Arcy J.M. Cain wrote:
On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 05:37:05 -0700
David Conrad [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm sure the same argument was used for telephone numbers when
technical folk were arguing against number portability.
Oh come on. You know perfectly well that
Le 2006-09-13 à 11:43, D'Arcy J.M. Cain a écrit :
Notice that no one is getting worked up about circuit
number portability.
I don't know about that. I have always harboured a desire to visit
ZOWISAP0001 in person. I hear Zoowie Island is quite lovely at this
time of year.
This is not
On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 17:53:04 +0200
Stephane Bortzmeyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Wed, Sep 13, 2006 at 11:43:36AM -0400,
D'Arcy J.M. Cain darcy@druid.net wrote
a message of 20 lines which said:
No one knows me by my IP address. They know me by my email
address(es).
Huh? Are you
On Wed, Sep 13, 2006 at 12:17:59PM -0400, D'Arcy J.M. Cain wrote:
I reiterate, no one knows me by my IP address. The software (DNS) they
use may and some people may need to make a change but the world in
general does not need to know that. That's the whole point of DNS.
Let me adjust that
I'm sure the same argument was used for telephone numbers when
technical folk were arguing against number portability.
Oh come on.
Where are we going?
You know perfectly well that phone numbers are not the same as IP.
Yes. I was making an analogy about what I suspect the technical
On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 10:38:49 -0700
Clay Fiske [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Wed, Sep 13, 2006 at 12:17:59PM -0400, D'Arcy J.M. Cain wrote:
I reiterate, no one knows me by my IP address. The software (DNS) they
use may and some people may need to make a change but the world in
general
D'Arcy J.M. Cain darcy@druid.net wrote:
If we were still calling central and asking Hi Mabel, can you put me
through to Doc, no one would give a rat's ass about phone number
portability. Notice that no one is getting worked up about circuit
number portability.
... or street number
Johnny Eriksson wrote:
D'Arcy J.M. Cain darcy@druid.net wrote:
If we were still calling central and asking Hi Mabel, can you put me
through to Doc, no one would give a rat's ass about phone number
portability. Notice that no one is getting worked up about circuit
number portability.
...
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Clay Fiske
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
Some people may know your phone number off the top of their heads, but
most will have to look it up.
They will look mine up by reading my business card, reading my adverts,
calling up my web page (OK, they are just an online
On Wed, 13 Sep 2006, Johnny Eriksson wrote:
D'Arcy J.M. Cain darcy@druid.net wrote:
If we were still calling central and asking Hi Mabel, can you put me
through to Doc, no one would give a rat's ass about phone number
portability. Notice that no one is getting worked up about circuit
number
Thus spake Johnny Eriksson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
D'Arcy J.M. Cain darcy@druid.net wrote:
If we were still calling central and asking Hi Mabel, can you put me
through to Doc, no one would give a rat's ass about phone number
portability. Notice that no one is getting worked up about circuit
number
On Mon, Sep 11, 2006 at 02:45:58PM -0400, Daniel Golding wrote:
Joe makes a good point. Everyone is shouting no one owns IP
addresses, but that is proof by assertion.
...as is asserting that marketplace economics work for any and
all things. I lean toward low-regulation myself - why would
News of this case has been sent here before (by [EMAIL PROTECTED] back
in July). Is anything really happening with the case?
It's case number 5:06-cv-02554-JW
They're still skirmishing about whether this is the right court to
file such a suit and stuff like that. Most recent order was on
On Sep 12, 2006, at 2:45 AM, Daniel Golding wrote:
What would establish IP addresses as some sort of ARIN-owned and
licensed community property? Well, winning a court case like this,
or congress passing a law.
Korea also has passed a law that any addresses assign to KRNIC become
the
3) What's wrong with treating assignments like property and setting
up a market to buy and sell them? There's plenty of precedent for this:
Mineral rights, mining claims, Oil and gas leases, radio spectrum.
Before you start making inferences from an analogy,
you had better be sure that
Your statement about preferential treatment is factually
incorrect. Larger ARIN members do not get larger allocations.
It is the larger network infrastructures that get the larger
allocations which is not directly tied to the size of the
company. Yes, larger companies often have larger
Since the public policy meetings and mailing lists where
consensus is judged
are open to any interested party, it is very hard to view this as an
anti-competitive act in my
opinion.
Kremen filed the suit on April 12, 2006. That is the
last day of the ARIN public meeting in Montreal. I
mcguckin
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006
1:37 PM
To: nanog@merit.edu
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Kremen VS Arin
Antitrust Lawsuit - Anyone have feedback?]
I read the complaint. I don't like the fact that a lot of my friends
are named in the suit, but I think there are some
points worth
, 2006 2:19 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: nanog@merit.edu
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Kremen VS Arin Antitrust Lawsuit - Anyone have
feedback?]
The real fundamental flaw with this free-market approach to handling IP
assignments is the fact that it will further create an environment where
smaller (start
On September 8, 2006 at 09:06 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Matt Ghali) wrote:
People who use the courts as a way to bleed their targets like this
are vermin. Not surprising at all that this is all about some
domain-squatting nonsense.
If a lawyer, any lawyer, sits you down in his office, looks
On September 8, 2006 at 16:28 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Fergie) wrote:
I like how Jack Bates framed it: The IP address space is a community
asset and as such, the allocation of it needs to be done in a way
which serves benefits the Internet community at-large.
Which would form a strong
On Fri, 8 Sep 2006, Tony Li wrote:
And the same way that government forced telephone number portability, I
foresee one day government requiring IP number portability among ISPs in
order to increase competition. So all those SWIPS and PA assignments in
ARIN/RIPE/APNIc may one day be used to
Hank Nussbacher wrote:
And the same way that government forced telephone number portability, I
foresee one day government requiring IP number portability among ISPs in
order to increase competition. So all those SWIPS and PA assignments in
ARIN/RIPE/APNIc may one day be used to allow Acme
Chris Jester wrote:
I am looking for anyone who has input on possibly the largest case
regarding internet numbering ever. This lawsuit may change the way
IP's are governed and adminstered. Comments on or off list please.
Anyone have experiences like are said in the lawsuit? I would love
to
Two questions regarding thisfor the list (slightly OT):1) Has any sort of IP address ownership precedence been set in a US court?2) Isn't ARIN considered a non-profit resource management/allocation organization? To my knowledge, there is no marketplace for IPs.
Thanks!-brandonOn 9/8/06, Chris
Interesting read.
http://www.internetgovernance.org/pdf/kremen.pdf#search=%22kremen%20vs%20arin%22
I found this little gem in the The Internet, IP addresses and Domain Names section:
---
Recently a new form of Internet addressing has emerged, called Classless
Inter-Domain Routing (CIDR). In
I am looking for anyone who has input on possibly the largest case
regarding internet numbering ever. This lawsuit may change the way
IP's are governed and adminstered. Comments on or off list please.
My personal opinion is that this is yet another
example of ignorance leading to anger
is going on and wrote an interesting
read of a case...
Later,
J
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 7:36 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Kremen VS Arin Antitrust Lawsuit - Anyone
On Fri, 8 Sep 2006 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Since IP addresses are basically available free from
any ISP who sells Internet access services, this seems
In small quantities, and which tie you to particular providers. Shells of
companies have been bought (or just claimed) for their large,
This is Gary Kremen owner of SEX dot com.cohen stole sex.com from kremen and kremen sued and got it back - it looks like he is trying to force arin to give him cohen's IP assignments sounds like a grudge match - but it is a shame that he might do arin collateral damage
Jon Lewis wrote:
In small quantities, and which tie you to particular providers. Shells
of companies have been bought (or just claimed) for their large,
especially pre-ARIN, PI-IP assignments. To a young ISP, a /16 for
example may seem like a lifetime supply of IP space, and save the
Thus spake Brandon Galbraith
Two questions regarding thisfor the list (slightly OT):
1) Has any sort of IP address ownership precedence been set in a US
court?
Not that I'm aware of, but I've never looked. I'm sure ARIN's lawyers
have.
2) Isn't ARIN considered a non-profit resource
The debate there will be around the
preferential treatment that larger ARIN members get (in terms of larger
allocations, lower per address fees, etc), which Kremen construes as
being anticompetitive via creating artificial barriers to entry. That
may end up being changed.
Your
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
But in the end, IP addresses are not property, therefore
they cannot be assets and cannot be transferred. They can
only be kept if they are in use on network assets which are
transferred and which continue to be operational. And even
then, most people have no choice as
-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am looking for anyone who has input on possibly the largest case
regarding internet numbering ever. This lawsuit may change the way
IP's are governed and adminstered. Comments on or off list please.
My personal opinion is that this is yet another
example of
On Fri, 8 Sep 2006, Gordon Cook wrote:
This is Gary Kremen owner of SEX dot com.
cohen stole sex.com from kremen and kremen sued and got it back - it looks
like he is trying to force arin to give him cohen's IP assignments sounds
like a grudge match - but it is a shame that he might do
Hopefully ARIN can recover their legal fees, so cash from members can be spent on IP space management.-brandonOn 9/8/06, Matt Ghali
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:On Fri, 8 Sep 2006, Gordon Cook wrote: This is GaryKremen owner of SEX dot com.
cohen stole sex.com from kremen and kremen sued and got it
Matt Ghali wrote:
Yes, at the least, wasting huge piles of ARIN's money on legal fees;
which is likely Kremen's entire intent, to teach them a lesson for not
handing over what he wanted.
Correction. Wasting huge piles of our money. I was hoping the money would go
towards a new template,
The complaint was, at best, an entertaining read. IANAL.
As was mentioned earlier, it looks like Kremen's whole case is built on a
number of false assumptions:
1. Netblocks are the property of the organization once their assignment
request is approved by ARIN or other RIR.
Since this is
-- Stephen Sprunk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The entire suit is predicated on the concept that IP addresses can
be owned and traded like other property. The rest is a house of
cards that will fall if ARIN can prove that to be incorrect -- and
will probably stand if they can't.
[snip]
I like how
I read the complaint. I don't like the fact that a lot of my friends are named in the suit, but I think there are somepoints worth discussing within the community:1) IP address blocks are not 'property' "Domains are not property. The assignee of a domain has no ownership interest" Network
3) What's wrong with
treating assignments like property and setting up a market to buy and sell them?
There's plenty of precedent for this:
Mineral
rights, mining claims, Oil and gas leases, radio spectrum.
If a given
commodity is truly scarce, nothing works as good as the free market in
3)
What's wrong with treating assignments like property and setting up a market
to buy and sell them? There's plenty of precedent for this:
Mineral
rights, mining claims, Oil and gas leases, radio spectrum.
If a given
commodity is truly scarce, nothing works as good as
Thus spake [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[ I said ]
The debate there will be around the preferential treatment that
larger
ARIN members get (in terms of larger allocations, lower per address
fees, etc), which Kremen construes as being anticompetitive via
creating artificial barriers to entry. That may
The real fundamental flaw with this free-market approach to handling IP
assignments is the fact that it will further create an environment where
smaller (start-ups, small businesses) entities trying to acquire PI
space will face insurmountable challenges (eg, financial).
While I think the
3) What's wrong with treating assignments
like property and setting up a market to buy and sell them? There's plenty of
precedent for this:
Mineral
rights, mining claims, Oil and gas leases, radio spectrum.
If a given commodity is truly scarce,
nothing works as good as the free market in
On Sep 8, 2006, at 10:33 AM, Stephen Sprunk wrote:
Thus spake [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[ I said ]
The debate there will be around the preferential treatment that
larger
ARIN members get (in terms of larger allocations, lower per address
fees, etc), which Kremen construes as being anticompetitive
Don't be so sure.
What probably _would_ police these willy-nilly announcements,
however, are prefix-length filters on the various ISP routers. :-)
And again, this could certainly lend itself to folks sic'ing their
lawyers on eacvh other in the name of anti-competitive lawsuits.
A mess ensues
Chris,
The first item they need is a Network Engineer.
You do not have actual IP addresses for servers you have DNS entries.
In my non legal opinion the individual filling suit is out money
because of there lack of understanding of DNS entries versus IP
addresses. You can resolve thousands
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