RE: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

Of Jeremy Austin Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 8:55 AM To: John Levine <jo...@iecc.com> Cc: niels=na...@bakker.net; NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 3:55 AM, John Levine <jo...@iecc.com> wrote: >

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 16:43:00 -0700, Todd Crane said: > You do realize that this is the exact kind of thing that caused this > discussion in the first place. I'm well familiar with that case. I was talking > about my own experiences in the food service industry, but of course you > barely > read

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

On 4/13/16 6:25 AM, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: You *do* realize that the woman in the McDonald's case got *third degree* burns and required skin grafts, right? Water at 180F is hot enough to burn you - we even have a word for it: scalding. And unlike sipping too-hot coffee, where you can

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

You do realize that this is the exact kind of thing that caused this discussion in the first place. I'm well familiar with that case. I was talking about my own experiences in the food service industry, but of course you barely read a sentence and set on a war path accusing me of not checking

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 08:08:29AM +0300, Hank Nussbacher wrote: > On 12/04/2016 00:41, Ricky Beam wrote: > > On Mon, 11 Apr 2016 12:55:11 -0400, Chris Boyd > > wrote: > >> Interesting article. > >> > >> http://fusion.net/story/287592/internet-mapping-glitch-kansas-farm/

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

Or (90S,0), so they get a bit of fresh air and have some time think during the voyage :-) On 4/11/16 2:14 PM, Josh Luthman wrote: > Or 0,0, send the FBI to Africa on a boating trip. that would probably be > easier than "unknown" or "null". > > > Josh Luthman > Office: 937-552-2340 > Direct:

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

> On Apr 11, 2016, at 10:02 AM, Ken Chase wrote: > > Cant believe law enforcement is using this kind of info to execute searches. > Wouldnt that undermine the credibility of any evidence brought up in trials > for any geoip locates? What overworked and underpaid public

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 03:31:47PM -, John Levine wrote: > >There are similar problems with phone numbers. Google's libphonenumber, > >for example, will tell you that +1 855 266 7269 is in the US. It's not, > >it's Canadian ... > Actually, it's probably both US and Canadian. When you call an

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

On 2016-04-13 09:11, valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote: > On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 20:17:03 -0400, Jean-Francois Mezei said: >> All GeoIP services would be forced to > > How? Fair point. However, considering more and more outfits block content based on IP geolocation, once has to wonder if an outfit

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

>There are similar problems with phone numbers. Google's libphonenumber, >for example, will tell you that +1 855 266 7269 is in the US. It's not, >it's Canadian. It appears that for any NANP "area code" that isn't >assigned to a particular place libphonenumber just says "it's in the US" >instead

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 22:57:42 -0700, Todd Crane said: >.What ever happened to holding people responsible for being > stupid. When did it start becoming ((fill in the blank)) coffee shop > for you burning your tongue on your coffee Whatever happened to holding people responsible for fact checking

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

On Tue, 12 Apr 2016 20:17:03 -0400, Jean-Francois Mezei said: > All GeoIP services would be forced to How? pgpE7Fsimh3CW.pgp Description: PGP signature

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

On 2016-04-13 05:57, Todd Crane wrote: As to a solution, why don’t we just register the locations (more or less) with ARIN? Hell, with the amount of money we all pay them in annual fees, I can’t imagine it would be too hard for them to maintain. They could offer it as part of their public

RE: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

On Wed, 13 Apr 2016, Nathan Anderson wrote: > What I do get upset hearing about, though, is law enforcement > agencies using that kind of data in order to execute a warrant. There > is nothing actionable there, and yet from the sounds of it, some LEAs > are getting search warrants or

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 07:14:15PM -0500, Theodore Baschak wrote: > > On Apr 12, 2016, at 7:10 PM, Jean-Francois Mezei wrote: > > On 2016-04-11 13:22, Ken Chase wrote: > >> Well they DO know the IP location is within the USA - > > A friend in Australia was with an ISP onwed by a US firm and his

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

Really? - You want RIRs to now perpetuate an application of IPs they are not designed for? The activities of MaxMind and similar need to be exposed so people understand the problem. No matter how Geo IP businesses might back peddle and say they never intended their services to be considered as

RE: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

originated. -- Nathan -Original Message- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Todd Crane Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 10:58 PM To: Jean-Francois Mezei Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences I like (sarcasm) how everybody

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

I like (sarcasm) how everybody here either wants to point fingers at MaxMind or offer up coordinates to random places knowing that it will never happen. What ever happened to holding people responsible for being stupid. When did it start becoming ((fill in the blank)) coffee shop’s for you

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

All GeoIP services would be forced to document their default lat/long values so that users know that when these values, they know it is a generic one for that country. (or supply +181. +91.0 which is an invalid value indicating that there is no lat/long, look at country code given).

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

> On Apr 12, 2016, at 7:10 PM, Jean-Francois Mezei wrote: > > On 2016-04-11 13:22, Ken Chase wrote: >> Well they DO know the IP location is within the USA - > > > A friend in Australia was with an ISP onwed by a US firm and his IP > address often geolocated to the USA. > Similarly, IPv6

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

Re: Sending police to middle of a lake.. Puts new meaning to a fishing expedition for police :-)

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

On 2016-04-11 13:34, Steve Mikulasik wrote: > Mather says they’re going to change them. They are picking new default > locations for the U.S. and Ashburn, Virginia that are in the middle of bodies > of water, Why not the White House or Wahington Monument ? Or better yet, some large office

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

On 4/12/2016 08:31, Leo Bicknell wrote: In a message written on Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 03:10:44PM -0400, Sean Donelan wrote: If GeoIP insists on giving a specific lon/lat, instead of an uncertaintity how about using locations such as the followign as the "default I don't know where it is"

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 3:55 AM, John Levine wrote: > > Please don't guess (like, you know, MaxMind does.) USPS has its own > database of all of the deliverable addresses in the country. They > have their problems, but give or take data staleness as buildings > are built or

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

In a message written on Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 03:10:44PM -0400, Sean Donelan wrote: > If GeoIP insists on giving a specific lon/lat, instead of an uncertaintity > how about using locations such as the followign as the "default I don't > know where it is" > > United States: 38.8899 N, 77.0091 W

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

In article <20160411191347.gc4...@excession.tpb.net> you write: >* baldur.nordd...@gmail.com (Baldur Norddahl) [Mon 11 Apr 2016, 21:02 CEST]: >>They should stop giving out coordinates on houses period. Move the >>coordinate to the nearest street intersection if you need to be that >>precise (I

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 06:15:08PM -, John Levine wrote: > > >The problem with MaxMind (and other geoip databases I've seen that do > >Lat/Long as well as Country / State / Town) is that the > >data doesn't include uncertainty, so it returns "38.0/-97.0" rather than > >"somewhere in a 3000

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

On 12/04/2016 00:41, Ricky Beam wrote: > On Mon, 11 Apr 2016 12:55:11 -0400, Chris Boyd > wrote: >> Interesting article. >> >> http://fusion.net/story/287592/internet-mapping-glitch-kansas-farm/ > ... > > "Until you reached out to us, we were unaware that there were

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Owen DeLong wrote: > So really, what is needed is two additional fields for the lat/lon of > laterr/lonerr so that, for example, instead of just 38.0/-97.0, you would > get 38.0±2/-97.0±10 or something like that. > It does seem needed to the

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

Owne, * Owen DeLong (o...@delong.com) wrote: > However, my home address has been published in multiple whois databases since > I moved here in 1993. > > Not once has a nitwit with a gun shown up on my doorstep as a result. (I have > had visits from nitwits with guns, > but they were the

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

On 4/11/2016 11:55, Chris Boyd wrote: Interesting article. http://fusion.net/story/287592/internet-mapping-glitch-kansas-farm/ An hour’s drive from Wichita, Kansas, in a little town called Potwin, there is a 360-acre piece of land with a very big problem. The plot has been owned by the

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

> On Apr 11, 2016, at 15:23 , Niels Bakker

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

Oh, heck, you know better than that. You can put in all the flags and warnings you want, but if it returns an address, nitwits will show up at the address with guns. * o...@delong.com (Owen DeLong) [Tue 12 Apr 2016, 00:02 CEST]: I hear this argument about various things over and over and

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

> On Apr 11, 2016, at 12:01 , Baldur Norddahl wrote: > > On 11 April 2016 at 20:15, John Levine wrote: > >> Oh, heck, you know better than that. You can put in all the flags and >> warnings you want, but if it returns an address, nitwits will show

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

> On Apr 11, 2016, at 11:15 , John Levine wrote: > > >> The problem with MaxMind (and other geoip databases I've seen that do >> Lat/Long as well as Country / State / Town) is that the >> data doesn't include uncertainty, so it returns "38.0/-97.0" rather than >> "somewhere

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

On Mon, 11 Apr 2016 12:55:11 -0400, Chris Boyd wrote: Interesting article. http://fusion.net/story/287592/internet-mapping-glitch-kansas-farm/ ... "Until you reached out to us, we were unaware that there were issues..." Bull! I can dig up dozens (if not hundreds)

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

> On Apr 11, 2016, at 10:26 , Steve Atkins wrote: > >> >> On Apr 11, 2016, at 10:11 AM, Hugo Slabbert wrote: >> >> >> On Mon 2016-Apr-11 13:02:14 -0400, Ken Chase wrote: >> >>> TL;DR: GeoIP put unknown IP location mappings to the

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

On Mon, 11 Apr 2016 21:13:48 +0200, Niels Bakker said: > * baldur.nordd...@gmail.com (Baldur Norddahl) [Mon 11 Apr 2016, 21:02 CEST]: > >They should stop giving out coordinates on houses period. Move the > >coordinate to the nearest street intersection if you need to be that > >precise (I would

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

* baldur.nordd...@gmail.com (Baldur Norddahl) [Mon 11 Apr 2016, 21:02 CEST]: They should stop giving out coordinates on houses period. Move the coordinate to the nearest street intersection if you need to be that precise (I would prefer nearest town square). Anything more than that should be

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

On Mon, 11 Apr 2016, Laszlo Hanyecz wrote: I imagine some consumers of the data will 'correct' the position to fall on the nearest road in front of the nearest house. If GeoIP insists on giving a specific lon/lat, instead of an uncertaintity how about using locations such as the followign as

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

On 11 April 2016 at 20:15, John Levine wrote: > Oh, heck, you know better than that. You can put in all the flags and > warnings you want, but if it returns an address, nitwits will show up > at the address with guns. > > Bodies of water probably are the least bad alternative.

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

On 2016-04-11 18:15, John Levine wrote: Bodies of water probably are the least bad alternative. I wonder if they're going to hydrolocate all of the unknown addresses, or only the ones where they get publically shamed. R's, John I imagine some consumers of the data will 'correct' the

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

Why not use the locations of their own homes? They're indirectly sending mobs to randomly chosen locations. There's enough middle men involved so they can all say they're doing nothing wrong, but wrong is being done. -Laszlo On 2016-04-11 17:34, Steve Mikulasik wrote: Just so everyone is

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

>The problem with MaxMind (and other geoip databases I've seen that do Lat/Long >as well as Country / State / Town) is that the >data doesn't include uncertainty, so it returns "38.0/-97.0" rather than >"somewhere in a 3000 mile radius circle centered on >38.0/-97.0". > >Someone should show

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

In article <90136824.12309.1460396310889.JavaMail.mhammett@ThunderFuck> you write: >So they launch exhaustive and expensive searches of lakes instead? :-) I'm starting a new chain of kiosks that rent wet suits and snorkels. R's, John

RE: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

...@civeo.com> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 12:34:35 PM Subject: RE: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences Just so everyone is clear, Maxmind is changing their default locations. " Now that I’ve made MaxMind aware of the consequences of the default l

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

> On Apr 11, 2016, at 1:34 PM, Steve Mikulasik > wrote: > > Just so everyone is clear, Maxmind is changing their default locations. > > " Now that I’ve made MaxMind aware of the consequences of the default > locations it’s chosen, Mather says they’re going to

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

...@civeo.com> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 12:34:35 PM Subject: RE: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences Just so everyone is clear, Maxmind is changing their default locations. " Now that I’ve made MaxMind aware of the consequences of the default l

RE: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

Just so everyone is clear, Maxmind is changing their default locations. " Now that I’ve made MaxMind aware of the consequences of the default locations it’s chosen, Mather says they’re going to change them. They are picking new default locations for the U.S. and Ashburn, Virginia that are in

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

> On Apr 11, 2016, at 10:11 AM, Hugo Slabbert wrote: > > > On Mon 2016-Apr-11 13:02:14 -0400, Ken Chase wrote: > >> TL;DR: GeoIP put unknown IP location mappings to the 'center of the country' >> but then rounded off the lat long so it points at this farm.

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

Well they DO know the IP location is within the USA - many apps use the GeoIP API and require a lat/long returned, and some need one that lands within a country border (thus my suggestion of middle of a remote wilderness park - let the cops search some desolate remote desert in nevada amirite?)

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

Has happened in Atlanta, too, due to (what I think) was a lookup on the ASN's whois, which wasn't specific: http://fusion.net/story/214995/find-my-phone-apps-lead-to-wrong-home/ On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Chris Boyd wrote: > > Interesting article. > >

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

Or 0,0, send the FBI to Africa on a boating trip. that would probably be easier than "unknown" or "null". Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 1:11 PM, Hugo Slabbert wrote: > > On Mon

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

On Mon 2016-Apr-11 13:02:14 -0400, Ken Chase wrote: TL;DR: GeoIP put unknown IP location mappings to the 'center of the country' but then rounded off the lat long so it points at this farm. Cant believe law enforcement is using this kind of info to execute searches. Wouldnt

Re: GeoIP database issues and the real world consequences

TL;DR: GeoIP put unknown IP location mappings to the 'center of the country' but then rounded off the lat long so it points at this farm. Cant believe law enforcement is using this kind of info to execute searches. Wouldnt that undermine the credibility of any evidence brought up in trials for