[Nanog-futures] New Membership-WG Draft

2010-10-26 Thread kris foster
The Membership WG has created a new draft for the community to review and discuss. This draft is not intended to be language for bylaw amendment. Once general consensus is reached on the membership policies work will begin on writing language for bylaw amendment where necessary. The

DDOS attack via as702 87.118.210.122

2010-10-26 Thread Serg Shubenkov
Hello, list. Please send me off-list abuse contact for as702. -- Serg Shubenkov, MAcomnet, Internet Dept., Head of Inet Department phone: +7 495 7969392/9079, +7 916 5316625, mailto:s...@macomnet.net icq uin: 101964103, Skype: serg.v.shubenkov

Re: DDOS attack via as702 87.118.210.122

2010-10-26 Thread Jack Carrozzo
Whois is hard, let's go shopping: ja...@anna ~ $ whois as701 # # The following results may also be obtained via: # http://whois.arin.net/rest/asns;q=as701?showDetails=true # ASNumber: 701 - 705 ASName: UUNET ASHandle: AS701 RegDate:1990-08-03 Updated:

Re: DDOS attack via as702 87.118.210.122

2010-10-26 Thread Cutler James R
Jack, I agree that whois is hard. Please explain how you knew to query AS701 when Serg asked about AS702. computer:~ me$ whois as702 SNIP No match for AS702. Last update of whois database: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 13:47:47 UTC Regards. Cutler On Oct 26, 2010, at 9:22 AM, Jack Carrozzo

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread TJ
Quick comment: IGP bloat != BGP bloat. Your customers cannot announce the space you gave them externally - unless ~/32s, i.e. forced aggregation. Also, your customers shouldn't need to come back for more very often and ideally you have some reservations for them a well :). /TJ PS - apologies

Re: DDOS attack via as702 87.118.210.122

2010-10-26 Thread Adrian Chadd
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010, Cutler James R wrote: Jack, I agree that whois is hard. Please explain how you knew to query AS701 when Serg asked about AS702. Brainfart. I understand why people confuse 701 with 702. $ whois -h whois.ripe.net AS702 % Information related to 'AS702' aut-num:

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Jeroen Massar
On 2010-10-26 15:57, Jack Bates wrote: [..] Am I missing something, or is this minimalist approach going to cause issues in BGP the same as v4 did? You are missing the point of making a proper plan which can justify address space for your business for the next years. If done properly, you have

Re: DDOS attack via as702 87.118.210.122

2010-10-26 Thread Tim Jackson
Whois really isn't that hard Maybe reading: ASNumber: 701 - 705 is though.. t...@shitbox:/var/log$ whois a 702 -h whois.arin.net # # The following results may also be obtained via: # http://whois.arin.net/rest/asns;q=702?showDetails=true # ASNumber: 701 - 705 ASName: UUNET

Re: Tools for teaching users online safety

2010-10-26 Thread Roland Perry
In article 4cc62b29.4040...@blastro.com, Alex Thurlow a...@blastro.com writes I'm trying to find out if there are currently any resources available for teaching people how to be safe online. As in, how to not get a virus, how to pick out phishing emails, how to recognize scams. I'm sure

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Jack Bates
On 10/26/2010 9:08 AM, Jeroen Massar wrote: You are missing the point of making a proper plan which can justify address space for your business for the next years. According to ARIN, initial allocations due NOT allot for growth, only for the existing infrastructure. If done properly, you

Re: DDOS attack via as702 87.118.210.122

2010-10-26 Thread Jack Carrozzo
Well, I whois'd 702, got no match, said hm, I see 701 all over the place, lemmy take a look and found: ASNumber: 701 - 705 ASName: UUNET etc. Sorry, it was left as an exercise to the reader - didn't mean to be flippant. -Jack CArrozzo On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Adrian

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Jack Bates
On 10/26/2010 9:06 AM, TJ wrote: Quick comment: IGP bloat != BGP bloat. Your customers cannot announce the space you gave them externally - unless ~/32s, i.e. forced aggregation. Still waiting on ARIN to get back to my argument that I am allowed to assign /32s to my subtending ISPs who are

RE: DDOS attack via as702 87.118.210.122

2010-10-26 Thread Steve Adcock
Must admit I thought what Jack supplied said between AS 701 - 705 which is MCI/Verizon and correct? ASNumber: 701 - 705 ASName: UUNET ASHandle: AS701 RegDate:1990-08-03 Updated:2008-07-24 Ref:http://whois.arin.net/rest/asn/AS701 If you done some

Re: DDOS attack via as702 87.118.210.122

2010-10-26 Thread Beavis
whois on 702(Verizon) http://www.robtex.com/as/as702.html goodluck. On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 5:51 AM, Serg Shubenkov s...@macomnet.net wrote: Hello, list. Please send me off-list abuse contact for as702. -- Serg Shubenkov, MAcomnet, Internet Dept., Head of Inet Department phone: +7 495

Re: Tools for teaching users online safety

2010-10-26 Thread Chris Grundemann
On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 19:13, Alex Thurlow a...@blastro.com wrote: I'm trying to find out if there are currently any resources available for teaching people how to be safe online.  As in, how to not get a virus, how to pick out phishing emails, how to recognize scams.  I'm sure everyone on

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Florian Weimer
* Jack Bates: So, the best that I can tell (still not through debating with RIR), the IPv6 routing table will see lots of bloat. Here's my reasoning so far: 1) RIR (ARIN in this case, don't know other RIR interpretations) only does initial assignments to barely cover the minimum. If you

Cell sites

2010-10-26 Thread harbor235
I am hoping someone can guide me to a internet resource that provides information on newly contstructed cell sites and what provider they are affiliated with? I did some google fu and found a couple sites like antennasearch,towersource etc still no joy, in all cases this new tower does not

re: Cell sites

2010-10-26 Thread Nick Olsen
Well, I'm not sure if there is a database of who is actually colo'ed on a tower. But as for who a tower is owned by, The FCC database works. They also have a cool google earth file that will show you the location of all of them http://www.fccinfo.com/fccinfo_google_earth.php Nick Olsen Network

RE: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Tony Hain
You didn't miss anything, past ARIN practice has been broken, though using sparse allocation it is not quite as bad as you project. In any case, ISP's with more than 10k customers should NEVER get a /32, yet that is what ARIN insisted on giving even the largest providers in the region. Every ISP

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
Totally agree. In IPv6, polices are in some RIRs and MUST be in all them, balancing conservation and aggregation, but in case of conflict aggregation is the top priority. I can read it at the NRPM: 6.3.8. Conflict of goals The goals described above will often conflict with each other, or with

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Owen DeLong
On Oct 26, 2010, at 7:06 AM, TJ wrote: Quick comment: IGP bloat != BGP bloat. Your customers cannot announce the space you gave them externally - unless ~/32s, i.e. forced aggregation. He's talking about the bloat that comes from ISPs getting slow-started and then only being able to

Re: Cell sites

2010-10-26 Thread Rich Kulawiec
You may find this site helpful: http://www.cellreception.com/towers/ ---rsk

Re: Cell sites

2010-10-26 Thread Michael Holstein
I am hoping someone can guide me to a internet resource that provides information on newly contstructed cell sites and what provider they are affiliated with? http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/searchGeographic.jsp You can do a coordinate search among other things. Note .. this

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Sven Olaf Kamphuis
dusty old routers with ram problems... solution there: re-think the way you do your routing and compare the price of ram versus cpu cycles. (as well as having custom hardware developed to do it on, intel simply does not offer enough address bus lines to maintain bigass tables and address them

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Nick Hilliard
On 26/10/2010 17:23, Owen DeLong wrote: He's talking about the bloat that comes from ISPs getting slow-started and then only being able to increase their network in increments of 2x each time, so, effectively ISP gets: [...] Probably not quite as bad as IPv4, but, potentially close. In

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Jack Bates
On 10/26/2010 12:04 PM, Nick Hilliard wrote: In practice, the RIRs are implementing sparse allocation which makes it possible to aggregate subsequent allocations. I.e. not as bad as it may seem. Except, if you are given bare minimums, and you are assigning out to subtending ISPs bare

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Nick Hilliard
On 26/10/2010 18:19, Jack Bates wrote: My minimum /30 allocation per ARIN met a /27 in HD-Ratio thresholds. To not be given the threshold space means no reservations for subtending ISPs, no room for subtending ISPs to grow, and multiple assignments. If ARIN only does /29 boundaries, I'll also be

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Randy Carpenter
I think ARIN is now doing sparse allocations on /28 boundaries. My personal opinion is that it should be even more sparse, and that allocations should be done on nibble boundaries. Any reasonably-sized ISP should get at least a /28. I deal with many small-ish ISPs, and most are 5,000-10,000

Re: DDOS attack via as702 87.118.210.122

2010-10-26 Thread James Hess
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 9:12 AM, Jack Carrozzo j...@crepinc.com wrote: Well, I whois'd 702, got no match, said hm, I see 701 all over the place, lemmy take a look and found: There is a match... I think WHOIS as702 is erroneous WHOIS query syntax, typing asX not being the way to search

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Randy Carpenter
- Original Message - On 10/26/2010 12:04 PM, Nick Hilliard wrote: In practice, the RIRs are implementing sparse allocation which makes it possible to aggregate subsequent allocations. I.e. not as bad as it may seem. Except, if you are given bare minimums, and you are

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Sven Olaf Kamphuis
On Tue, 26 Oct 2010, Randy Carpenter wrote: - Original Message - On 10/26/2010 12:04 PM, Nick Hilliard wrote: In practice, the RIRs are implementing sparse allocation which makes it possible to aggregate subsequent allocations. I.e. not as bad as it may seem. Except, if you are

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Jack Bates
On 10/26/2010 1:01 PM, Randy Carpenter wrote: Wait... If you are issuing space to ISPs that are multihomed, they should be getting their own addresses. Even if they aren't multihomed, they should probably be getting their own addresses. Why would you be supplying them with address space if they

Re: NTP Server

2010-10-26 Thread William F. Maton Sotomayor
On Mon, 25 Oct 2010, Robert E. Seastrom wrote: The folks at NRC in Canada will do cryptographically authenticated NTP with you for an annual fee. I have no idea if there is something Robert, Thanks for the shout. NRC does do this, more info here:

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Eugeniu Patrascu
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 21:19, Sven Olaf Kamphuis s...@cb3rob.net wrote: On Tue, 26 Oct 2010, Randy Carpenter wrote: - Original Message - On 10/26/2010 12:04 PM, Nick Hilliard wrote: In practice, the RIRs are implementing sparse allocation which makes it possible to aggregate

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Sven Olaf Kamphuis
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 21:19, Sven Olaf Kamphuis s...@cb3rob.net wrote: On Tue, 26 Oct 2010, Randy Carpenter wrote: - Original Message - On 10/26/2010 12:04 PM, Nick Hilliard wrote: In practice, the RIRs are implementing sparse allocation which makes it possible to aggregate

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Christopher Morrow
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Sven Olaf Kamphuis s...@cb3rob.net wrote: On Tue, 26 Oct 2010, Randy Carpenter wrote: - Original Message - On 10/26/2010 12:04 PM, Nick Hilliard wrote: In practice, the RIRs are implementing sparse allocation which makes it possible to aggregate

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Owen DeLong
On Oct 26, 2010, at 11:19 AM, Sven Olaf Kamphuis wrote: On Tue, 26 Oct 2010, Randy Carpenter wrote: - Original Message - On 10/26/2010 12:04 PM, Nick Hilliard wrote: In practice, the RIRs are implementing sparse allocation which makes it possible to aggregate subsequent

RE: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread George Bonser
-Original Message- From: Jack Bates [mailto:jba...@brightok.net] Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 11:23 AM To: Randy Carpenter Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated? On 10/26/2010 1:01 PM, Randy Carpenter wrote: Wait... If you are issuing space

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Blake Dunlap
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 14:20, George Bonser gbon...@seven.com wrote: -Original Message- From: Jack Bates [mailto:jba...@brightok.net] On 10/26/2010 1:01 PM, Randy Carpenter wrote: Wait... If you are issuing space to ISPs that are multihomed, they should be getting their

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Sven Olaf Kamphuis
2. RIPE has always issued PI space to LIRs (ISPs are by definition LIRs). ISPs are not per-se LIRs. LIRs register IP space on behalf of customers customers that do not make delegations themselves (i'm quite sure you don't put each and every one of your access customers into

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Sven Olaf Kamphuis
HAHA that would totally make the MAFIAA's day... entering all your dialup and adsl customers into whois as they would be end users :P quite sure the EU would not agree on that definition of what constitutes an end-user, and therefore, its quite possible to provide access services on PI space

RE: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread George Bonser
Shared hosting ISPs also do not make subdelegations and generally don't even uses the ips on a one-specific-customer-per-ip basis. But how do they multihome without an ASN? If they have an ASN, how did they get it without going to an RIR and paying a fee?

RE: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Antonio Querubin
On Tue, 26 Oct 2010, George Bonser wrote: To: Sven Olaf Kamphuis s...@cb3rob.net Shared hosting ISPs also do not make subdelegations and generally don't even uses the ips on a one-specific-customer-per-ip basis. But how do they multihome without an ASN? If they have an ASN, how did they

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Blake Dunlap
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 14:45, George Bonser gbon...@seven.com wrote: Shared hosting ISPs also do not make subdelegations and generally don't even uses the ips on a one-specific-customer-per-ip basis. But how do they multihome without an ASN? If they have an ASN, how did they get it

RE: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Sven Olaf Kamphuis
eh don't know about you americans but here in europe you just go to a LIR and ask them to register an AS for you. there are ofcourse maintenance fees nowadays. On Tue, 26 Oct 2010, George Bonser wrote: Shared hosting ISPs also do not make subdelegations and generally don't even uses the

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Sven Olaf Kamphuis
We also have various customers that only obtain LIR registration services and have no network links whatsoever with us (so just PI and/or AS registration, no transit or whatever) which -is- what a LIR does.. operating a network has nothing to do with being a LIR per-se. On Tue, 26 Oct 2010,

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Chris Boyd
On Oct 26, 2010, at 2:45 PM, George Bonser wrote: But how do they multihome without an ASN? If they have an ASN, how did they get it without going to an RIR and paying a fee? I beleive Jack said that they have redundant connections to his network. I took that to mean that they did not

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Jack Bates
On 10/26/2010 2:26 PM, Blake Dunlap wrote: This is actually not that uncommon. You see it a lot in the smaller level. I had several such clients at my last job. They want to be multi-homed for redundancy, but either don't have enough space, or don't want to pay full time people, so they use a

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Sven Olaf Kamphuis
what's the problem anyway with 32bit ASN's there should be enough AS namespace to give everyone that wants to multihome their ipv6/ipv4 PI their own AS number... should pretty much be the de-facto standard (unless ofcourse you want to tie your customers to your internet-provider-activities

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Scott Reed
Why would the assumption be the ISP = knowledgeable or even caring about RIRs, etc.? When I started my ISP 6 years ago I knew someone issued IP addresses to my upstream provider, but I really didn't care who that was. The upstream took care of everything related to getting and assigning

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Majdi S. Abbas
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 12:45:45PM -0700, George Bonser wrote: But how do they multihome without an ASN? Well, get space from one of your providers, and an LOA to get the other to announce the deaggregate for you. Or they've got legacy space, and never had an AS; just get their

RE: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread George Bonser
From: Chris Boyd Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2010 1:08 PM To: NANOG Subject: Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated? I beleive Jack said that they have redundant connections to his network. I took that to mean that they did not multihome to different AS. Ok, that is where my mental

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Mark Smith
On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 12:19:30 -0500 Jack Bates jba...@brightok.net wrote: On 10/26/2010 12:04 PM, Nick Hilliard wrote: In practice, the RIRs are implementing sparse allocation which makes it possible to aggregate subsequent allocations. I.e. not as bad as it may seem. Except, if you

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Mark Smith
On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:25:39 -0400 Scott Reed sr...@nwwnet.net wrote: Why would the assumption be the ISP = knowledgeable or even caring about RIRs, etc.? When I started my ISP 6 years ago I knew someone issued IP addresses to my upstream provider, but I really didn't care who that was.

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Franck Martin
I think APNIC has a policy that defines the minimum IPv6 allocation based on your current IPv4 allocation/usage. This would fix the problem? - Original Message - From: Randy Carpenter rcar...@network1.net To: Nick Hilliard n...@foobar.org Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, 27 October,

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Randy Carpenter
It would be nice as a start, but does not really take into consideration future expansion needs. I would think that you could draw some parallels, though. Something like: v4 /16 ~ v6 /32 v4 /12 ~ v6 /28 v4 /8 ~ v6 /24 I know it we don't want to equate v4 and v6, but it may help as a

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Franck Martin
Yes indeed, but you don't have to justify much if you only ask for the minimum, if you want more you need to ask... Also, and this I like less, your membership is calculated from the number of IPs you have... I think in short $$=max(1180x1.3(log2(Addresses in /32)-8),Feev6 =

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Owen DeLong
It's very interesting to me that wee keep discussing RIRs other than ARIN when talking about allocation policies and issues for NANOG. The NA in NANOG puts the vast majority of it within the ARIN service region. The only other RIR which has territory within NA has not even been mentioned until

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Franck Martin
- Original Message - From: Owen DeLong o...@delong.com To: Franck Martin fra...@genius.com Cc: Randy Carpenter rcar...@network1.net, nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, 27 October, 2010 11:48:58 AM Subject: Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated? It's very interesting to me that wee

Re: Tools for teaching users online safety

2010-10-26 Thread J.D. Falk
On Oct 25, 2010, at 6:13 PM, Alex Thurlow wrote: I'm trying to find out if there are currently any resources available for teaching people how to be safe online. As in, how to not get a virus, how to pick out phishing emails, how to recognize scams. I'm sure everyone on this list knows

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Matthew Palmer
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 05:48:13PM -0400, Randy Carpenter wrote: Someone who Randy didn't attribute wrote: I think APNIC has a policy that defines the minimum IPv6 allocation based on your current IPv4 allocation/usage. This would fix the problem? It would be nice as a start, but does not

Re: IPv6 Routing table will be bloated?

2010-10-26 Thread Randy Bush
So, the best that I can tell (still not through debating with RIR), the IPv6 routing table will see lots of bloat. 96 more bits, no magic

Re: Tools for teaching users online safety

2010-10-26 Thread Joly MacFie
Also the FTC has set up a comprehensive site to protect kids, including a guide for parents on kid's use of social networks. http://www.onguardonline.gov/ j On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 8:04 PM, J.D. Falk jdfalk-li...@cybernothing.orgwrote: On Oct 25, 2010, at 6:13 PM, Alex Thurlow wrote: I'm