How is IPv6 deployment going in the APNIC region?
Only 0.3 of a /8 left[1] before the rationing policy kicks in. I hope everyone is ready :-) [1] http://www.apnic.net/community/ipv4-exhaustion/graphical-information -- Graham Beneke
Re: How is IPv6 deployment going in the APNIC region?
* Graham Beneke Only 0.3 of a /8 left[1] before the rationing policy kicks in. Hi, Actually, they're already empty. Chinanet Fujian Province Network allocated 498432 addresses today, spread out over 1102(!) individual prefixes in the range /21-/24. Unless any resources has been returned to the free pool today, there's nothing left in the APNIC pool outside of the 103/8 block, which is the one set aside for the final /8 policy. Best regards, -- Tore Anderson Redpill Linpro AS - http://www.redpill-linpro.com Tel: +47 21 54 41 27
Re: How is IPv6 deployment going in the APNIC region?
On 14 apr 2011, at 8:33, Tore Anderson wrote: Actually, they're already empty. Chinanet Fujian Province Network allocated 498432 addresses today, spread out over 1102(!) individual prefixes in the range /21-/24. Where do you see this? On ftp.apnic.net I see delegated-apnic-20110414 which only contains info upto the 13th and has a timestamp of Apr 13 15:15. Based on that file, APNIC still has 17.57 million regular + 2.27 M legacy = 19.84 M total address space, so another 0.5 M wouldn't deplete what's left. I also don't get what they did two days ago: inetnum:39.192.0.0 - 39.255.255.255 netname:Debogon-prefix descr: APNIC Debogon Project This is address space that's now marked as delegated and removed from the pile of unused address space for no obvious reason.
New hijacks, and lots of them
One particular large and well-distributed snowshoe spamming operation became the subject of my special scrutiny recently. After seeing all of the the various apparently hijacked IP blocks that this particular snowshoe spamming operation seemed to be relying upon for much of its IP space, it seemed like the right thing to do for me to report on the whole mess here. To begin with here are a couple of files which show the full extent of this particular rather vast snowshoe operation (including both hijacked and non-hijacked parts). By my count we are talking in excess of 6,300 separate second-level gTLD domain names. http://www.47-usc-230c2.org/20110414-snowshoe-1.txt http://www.47-usc-230c2.org/20110414-snowshoe-2.txt Dredging into this operation more deeply led me to the following con- clusions... Based upon information and belief, the following number resources have been hijacked, i.e. they either are now, or were in the recent past being used without proper authorization by a party or parties to whom these resources were not assigned by any RiR. (Unless otherwise specified below, these are all ARIN-assigned number resources.) AS8143 (1) AS29987 (2) AS11756 (3) (4) AS47024 (5) AS27906 (6)(7) 198.23.32.0/20 - NET-198-23-32-0-1 (8) 198.57.64.0/20 - NET-198-57-64-0-1 (9) 199.88.32.0/20 - NET-199-88-32-0-1 (10) 199.192.16.0/20 - NET-199-192-16-0-1 (11) 199.196.192.0/19 - NET-199-196-192-0-1 (12) 200.107.216.0/21 - GT-AGSA1-LACNIC (13) 204.147.240.0/20 - NET-204-147-240-0-1 (14) 207.22.224.0/19 - (NET-207-22-192-0-1) (15) (16) Notes - (1) Probable fradulent falsification of JD47-ORG-ARIN - 2010-11-22 (2) Probable fradulent falsification of AS29987 IPADM448-ARIN - 2010-11-04 (3) Probable fradulent falsification of AS11756 - 2011-03-15 (4) Probable fradulent falsification of JR1271-ARIN - 2010-07-08 (5) ARIN unable to validate contact NOC3622-ARIN since 2010-06-19 (6) LACNIC assigned AS (7) Contact record ERJ3 modified - 2011-04-06 (falsified?) (8) Probable fradulent falsification of NET-199-88-32-0-1 SH174-ARIN - 2010-11-03 (9) ARIN unable to valiadate contact GW449-ARIN since 2010-07-18 (10) ARIN unable to valiadate contact DM126-ARIN since 2010-07-16 (11) ARIN unable to valiadate contact RP56-ARIN since 2010-07-22 (12) ARIN unable to valiadate contact FB43-ARIN since 2010-07-17 (13) LACNIC assigned IPv4 block (14) ARIN unable to valiadate contact LT127-ORG-ARIN since 2010-07-20 (15) Only the 207.22.224.0/19 portion of 207.22.192.0/18 is being routed (16) ARIN unable to valiadate contact MH521-ARIN since 2010-07-12 Discussion -- The entire scope of this particular spamming operation spans both the aforementioned (hijacked) IP ranges and also a number of IP ranges that are clearly NOT hijacked. I have attempted to list below all ranges that either are now in use by this operation, or that have been in use by this operation, in the relatively recent past. The various IP blocks listed below are connected, in one way or another, to several entities that have been caught doing IP block hijacking in the past, in particular: *) Joytel Wireless of Florida... which apparently has some significant connection to an entity called GoRack, also of South Florida, and *) Xeex aka AS27524 aka Nishant Ramachandran, and *) last but by no means least, Media Breakaway, LLC aka JKS Media, LLC, aka Dynamic Dolphin (ICANN Accredited Registrar) aka OptInRealBig aka the notorious Scott Richter. (Essentially all of the domains of this operation are, apparently, registered anonymously with Dynamic Dophin, and as noted below, A portion of them are also being routed by JKS Media, and a subset of those are either hosted in and/or are getting DNS service from IP blocks registered to Media Breakaway.) As you will see below, a few of the ranges that I have identified as having been hijacked were already/previously blacklisted by Spamhaus some months ago. Also, in at least one case, Spamhaus records indicate that they too believe that the block in question was indeed hijacked. (It is always nice to have a second, confirming opinion.) I could speculate on the identity of the person or company which might most accurately be said to be behind all this, but I actually do not feel the need to do so in this instance. The data speaks for itself, and I do believe that any diligent researcher who really wants to dredge into it all will likely reach what I consider to be the proper conclusion(s). === All IP ranges containing assets of this specific snowshoe operation: 8.24.248.0/21 - via AS19844 (gorack.net) 66.115.166.0/24 - NET-66-115-166-0-1 - via AS22384 (nationalnet.com) 66.115.167.0/24 - NET-66-115-167-0-1 - via AS22384 (nationalnet.com) 66.115.168.0/24 - NET-66-115-168-0-1 - via AS22384
Re: How is IPv6 deployment going in the APNIC region?
* Iljitsch van Beijnum On 14 apr 2011, at 8:33, Tore Anderson wrote: Actually, they're already empty. Chinanet Fujian Province Network allocated 498432 addresses today, spread out over 1102(!) individual prefixes in the range /21-/24. Where do you see this? On ftp.apnic.net I see delegated-apnic-20110414 which only contains info upto the 13th and has a timestamp of Apr 13 15:15. Based on that file, APNIC still has 17.57 million regular + 2.27 M legacy = 19.84 M total address space, so another 0.5 M wouldn't deplete what's left. Hi, APNIC has for some time now made available an extended version of the delegated file that explicitly says which blocks are available: ftp://ftp.apnic.net/apnic/stats/apnic/delegated-apnic-extended-latest Disregarding 103/8, there were 1104 remaining available prefixes before APNIC's offices opened today. Now they're closed, and by looking in whois.apnic.net I can tell that every single one of the prefixes that were marked in the delegated-extended file as available is now allocated - 1102 of them to Chinanet Fujian Province Network, and two (106.0.32.0/19 and 116.90.0.0/18) to the APNIC Debogon Project. So unless some new blocks (for example returned space) has made it into the free pool today, they are down to their last /8. Actually, they're a bit under one /8, as there's been some assignments made to the Debogon Project in 103/8 already. I also don't get what they did two days ago: inetnum:39.192.0.0 - 39.255.255.255 netname:Debogon-prefix descr: APNIC Debogon Project This is address space that's now marked as delegated and removed from the pile of unused address space for no obvious reason. I believe they are using those prefixes for research. According to the APNIC whois database, 53 individual assignments have been made to the Debogon Project (including the three we've mentioned). In any case, when looking at the graph at http://www.apnic.net/community/ipv4-exhaustion/graphical-information and the delegated-extended file, it appears that these prefixes do count as assigned space like any other assignment. I would assume that when the research project is over, they will be returned to the free pool and assigned under the last /8 policy just like any other space that enters the pool after the last /8 policy has been implemented. Best regards, -- Tore Anderson Redpill Linpro AS - http://www.redpill-linpro.com/ Tel: +47 21 54 41 27
Re: How is IPv6 deployment going in the APNIC region?
On 14 apr 2011, at 13:50, Tore Anderson wrote: This is address space that's now marked as delegated and removed from the pile of unused address space for no obvious reason. I believe they are using those prefixes for research. and the delegated-extended file, it appears that these prefixes do count as assigned space like any other assignment. I would assume that when the research project is over, they will be returned to the free pool and assigned under the last /8 policy That is extremely curious. How can they justify taking 4 million addresses for research two days before running out of regularly allocatable address space? They could have taken that /10 out of the final /8 rather than taking it from the last scraps of regular space if they really need a /10 for research, which is already dubious in and of itself. Of course they didn't bother to respond to my request for information about all of this.
Re: How is IPv6 deployment going in the APNIC region?
That is extremely curious. How can they justify taking 4 million addresses for research two days before running out of regularly allocatable address space? They could have taken that /10 out of the final /8 rather than taking it from the last scraps of regular space if they really need a /10 for research, which is already dubious in and of itself. Debogon usually means they will establish beacons to detect networks that will incorrectly filter that block, and is an indication that such block will soon start being distributed to LIRs. Rubens
Re: How is IPv6 deployment going in the APNIC region?
On Apr 14, 2011, at 5:47 AM, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: On 14 apr 2011, at 13:50, Tore Anderson wrote: This is address space that's now marked as delegated and removed from the pile of unused address space for no obvious reason. I believe they are using those prefixes for research. and the delegated-extended file, it appears that these prefixes do count as assigned space like any other assignment. I would assume that when the research project is over, they will be returned to the free pool and assigned under the last /8 policy That is extremely curious. How can they justify taking 4 million addresses for research two days before running out of regularly allocatable address space? They could have taken that /10 out of the final /8 rather than taking it from the last scraps of regular space if they really need a /10 for research, which is already dubious in and of itself. Of course they didn't bother to respond to my request for information about all of this. I believe that rather than research, those are prefixes which are particularly dirty and they have allocated them to the project to try and get them cleaned up so that they can be subsequently issued. Owen
switch networking help
Hello I would like to ask general question about switch speed experience. How can I increase speed in switch port? ls it to combine more than one port? Any other solution? In combing ports, what are the advantages and disadvantages? Any info and experience. Thank you for your sharing.
Re: switch networking help
On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 08:47:32 -0500, Deric Kwok deric.kwok2...@gmail.com wrote: Hello I would like to ask general question about switch speed experience. How can I increase speed in switch port? The speed of the switch port is limited by the hardware. Make sure you are running a nic capable of the maximum switchport speed and that they are configured to be the maximum speed either by negotiation or manually. Most switches now days are 100mbps or 1000mbps. If it is too slow for you, try upgrading both the end point and replacing the switch to 10G. If you give us a make/model number, it is much easier to tell you what your switch can do. ls it to combine more than one port? Any other solution? Yes, there are a few ways and they vary by vendor, but the most common way is LACP etherchannel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_aggregation#Link_Aggregation_Control_Protocol In combing ports, what are the advantages and disadvantages? The advantage is increased bandwidth (naturally), also increased redundancy. Unfortunately LACP does not give a true 2gbps capability, it simply load balances between the two links based on various factors. So a single connection will only go up to 1gbps, even if the nic connecting it to the switch is a 10gbps connection. However for switch uplinks this is rarely a problem (so long as the correct load balancing algorithm is selected) as multiple hosts are connected at 1gbps trying to go upstream. Any info and experience. Thank you for your sharing. This is a 60 second overview and there is much more to this topic than I have said, but hopefully this will get you on your feet. -=Tom Donnelly -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Re: How is IPv6 deployment going in the APNIC region?
On 14 apr 2011, at 13:02, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: Based on that file, APNIC still has 17.57 million regular + 2.27 M legacy = 19.84 M total address space, so another 0.5 M wouldn't deplete what's left. I just got the 15 apr file which has the info for 14 apr (sigh...) and indeed 1100 blocks adding up to 0.52 million addresses were given out today. And that still leaves 2.27 million legacy addresses available, including all of 43.224.0.0/11 except 43.244 and 43.253, as well as 0.34 million non-legacy, non-103/8 addresses. 103/8 is apparently going to be the special final /8. It's still wide open except a /16, a /22 and a /24 that are registered to the debogon project (as of a week and a half ago).
Re: How is IPv6 deployment going in the APNIC region?
Recently, Microsoft Australia has been refused a temp allocation (like they had every year) for one of their conferences. On 4/15/11 9:01 , Iljitsch van Beijnum iljit...@muada.com wrote: On 14 apr 2011, at 13:02, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: Based on that file, APNIC still has 17.57 million regular + 2.27 M legacy = 19.84 M total address space, so another 0.5 M wouldn't deplete what's left. I just got the 15 apr file which has the info for 14 apr (sigh...) and indeed 1100 blocks adding up to 0.52 million addresses were given out today. And that still leaves 2.27 million legacy addresses available, including all of 43.224.0.0/11 except 43.244 and 43.253, as well as 0.34 million non-legacy, non-103/8 addresses. 103/8 is apparently going to be the special final /8. It's still wide open except a /16, a /22 and a /24 that are registered to the debogon project (as of a week and a half ago).
Contact for City of Panama City Beach, FL?
Could someone from the IT department for the City of Panama City Beach, Florida please contact me off-list? Best Regards, Nathan Eisenberg
RE: Contact for City of Panama City Beach, FL?
http://www.pcbgov.com/city_directory.htm Seems like it wouldn't be hard to track down that information... -Original Message- From: Nathan Eisenberg [mailto:nat...@atlasnetworks.us] Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 2:21 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Contact for City of Panama City Beach, FL? Could someone from the IT department for the City of Panama City Beach, Florida please contact me off-list? Best Regards, Nathan Eisenberg
Re: How is IPv6 deployment going in the APNIC region?
All… as of early this morning, APNIC is empty. Last /8 Policy is now in effect. ...Skeeve -- Skeeve Stevens, CEO - eintellego Pty Ltd - The Networking Specialists ske...@eintellego.net ; www.eintellego.net Phone: 1300 753 383 ; Fax: (+612) 8572 9954 Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve facebook.com/eintellego or eintell...@facebook.com twitter.com/networkceoau ; www.linkedin.com/in/skeeve PO Box 7726, Baulkham Hills, NSW 1755 Australia -- eintellego - The Experts that the Experts call - Juniper - HP Networking - Cisco - Brocade - Arista - Allied Telesis On 15/04/11 7:01 AM, Iljitsch van Beijnum iljit...@muada.commailto:iljit...@muada.com wrote: On 14 apr 2011, at 13:02, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: Based on that file, APNIC still has 17.57 million regular + 2.27 M legacy = 19.84 M total address space, so another 0.5 M wouldn't deplete what's left. I just got the 15 apr file which has the info for 14 apr (sigh...) and indeed 1100 blocks adding up to 0.52 million addresses were given out today. And that still leaves 2.27 million legacy addresses available, including all of 43.224.0.0/11 except 43.244 and 43.253, as well as 0.34 million non-legacy, non-103/8 addresses. 103/8 is apparently going to be the special final /8. It's still wide open except a /16, a /22 and a /24 that are registered to the debogon project (as of a week and a half ago).
Re: How is IPv6 deployment going in the APNIC region?
On 15 apr 2011, at 0:04, Skeeve Stevens wrote: All… as of early this morning, APNIC is empty. Why do you say that? Do you have information that contradicts my numbers?
Re: How is IPv6 deployment going in the APNIC region?
Just an email from APNIC 3 hours ago to all regional mailing lists. Kinda authoritative I would say. --- On 15/04/11 6:25 AM, APNIC Secretariat apnic-no-re...@apnic.netmailto:apnic-no-re...@apnic.net wrote: ___ APNIC IPv4 Address Pool Reaches Final /8 ___ Dear APNIC community We are writing to inform you that as of Friday, 15 April 2011, the APNIC pool reached the Final /8 IPv4 address block, bringing us to Stage Three of IPv4 exhaustion in the Asia Pacific. For more information about Stage Three, please refer to: http://www.apnic.net/ipv4-exhaustion/stages Last /8 address policy -- IPv4 requests will now be assessed under section 9.10 in Policies for IPv4 address space management in the Asia Pacific region: http://www.apnic.net/policy/add-manage-policy#9.10 APNIC's objective during Stage Three is to provide IPv4 address space for new entrants to the market and for those deploying IPv6. http://www.apnic.net/ipv4-stage3-faq From now, all new and existing APNIC account holders will be entitled to receive a maximum allocation of a /22 from the Final /8 address space. For more details on the eligibility criteria according to the Final /8 policy, please refer to: http://www.apnic.net/criteria Act NOW on IPv6 --- We encourage Asia Pacific Internet community members to deploy IPv6 within their organizations. You can refer to APNIC for information regarding IPv6 deployment, statistics, training, and related regional policies at: http://www.apnic.net/ipv6 To apply for IPv6 addresses now, please visit: http://www.apnic.net/kickstart ___ APNIC Secretariat secretar...@apnic.netmailto:secretar...@apnic.net Asia Pacific NetworkInformation Centre (APNIC) Tel: +61 7 3858 3100 PO Box 3646 South Brisbane, QLD 4101 AustraliaFax: +61 7 3858 3199 6 Cordelia Street, South Brisbane, QLD http://www.apnic.nethttp://www.apnic.net/ ___ * Sent by email to save paper. Print only if necessary. --- ...Skeeve -- Skeeve Stevens, CEO - eintellego Pty Ltd - The Networking Specialists ske...@eintellego.net ; www.eintellego.net Phone: 1300 753 383 ; Fax: (+612) 8572 9954 Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve facebook.com/eintellego or eintell...@facebook.com twitter.com/networkceoau ; www.linkedin.com/in/skeeve PO Box 7726, Baulkham Hills, NSW 1755 Australia -- eintellego - The Experts that the Experts call - Juniper - HP Networking - Cisco - Brocade - Arista - Allied Telesis On 15/04/11 8:09 AM, Iljitsch van Beijnum iljit...@muada.commailto:iljit...@muada.com wrote: On 15 apr 2011, at 0:04, Skeeve Stevens wrote: All… as of early this morning, APNIC is empty. Why do you say that? Do you have information that contradicts my numbers?
RE: Contact for City of Panama City Beach, FL?
-Original Message- From: Dan Dill [mailto:d...@harsch.com] Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 3:03 PM To: Nathan Eisenberg; nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: Contact for City of Panama City Beach, FL? http://www.pcbgov.com/city_directory.htm Seems like it wouldn't be hard to track down that information... I did utilize that page prior to posting to NANOG - sorry for not stating that explicitly. Thanks Dan!
Re: Contact for City of Panama City Beach, FL?
On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 15:02:36 -0700 Dan Dill d...@harsch.com wrote: http://www.pcbgov.com/city_directory.htm Seems like it wouldn't be hard to track down that information... Can you identify where on that page it lists a contact for the IT department of the Panama City government? I can't, because it does not list such a contact. William
Re: Contact for City of Panama City Beach, FL?
- Original Message - From: William Pitcock neno...@systeminplace.net On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 15:02:36 -0700 Dan Dill d...@harsch.com wrote: http://www.pcbgov.com/city_directory.htm Seems like it wouldn't be hard to track down that information... Can you identify where on that page it lists a contact for the IT department of the Panama City government? I can't, because it does not list such a contact. Aw, c'mon, guys... We just *finished* Please don't top post; it's annoying a day or two ago; is it really time for why can't people just pick up the phone and call *already*? :-) Cheers, -- jra
Contact for va.gov
Yes, two in one day. Wholesalers don't wipe device configs, apparently. Anyways, would a technical contact for va.gov please contact me off-list? Best Regards, Nathan Eisenberg
Re: Contact for va.gov
Wouldn't the world be a better place if the ARIN contact information was correct and usable. It would be nice to have an easy place for these types of requests. I guess maybe this list is that place. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 14, 2011, at 7:33 PM, Nathan Eisenberg nat...@atlasnetworks.us wrote: Yes, two in one day. Wholesalers don't wipe device configs, apparently. Anyways, would a technical contact for va.gov please contact me off-list? Best Regards, Nathan Eisenberg
RE: Contact for va.gov
I pinged a buddy of mine at the VA. No word yet and I'm working from Sydney this week so a bit delayed anyhow... Josh -Original Message- From: Bret Palsson [mailto:b...@getjive.com] Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 11:46 AM To: Nathan Eisenberg Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Contact for va.gov Wouldn't the world be a better place if the ARIN contact information was correct and usable. It would be nice to have an easy place for these types of requests. I guess maybe this list is that place. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 14, 2011, at 7:33 PM, Nathan Eisenberg nat...@atlasnetworks.us wrote: Yes, two in one day. Wholesalers don't wipe device configs, apparently. Anyways, would a technical contact for va.gov please contact me off-list? Best Regards, Nathan Eisenberg
Re: Contact for va.gov
On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 8:32 PM, Nathan Eisenberg nat...@atlasnetworks.us wrote: Yes, two in one day. Wholesalers don't wipe device configs, apparently. Anyways, would a technical contact for va.gov please contact me off-list? Best Regards, Nathan Eisenberg Is tracking down the original user and letting them know about the config leak a standard practice, necessary or the right thing to do? I've always just wiped flash and carried on.
Re: Contact for va.gov
It would be far more effective if more organizations set up and maintained a slash-security page (see the NIAC Vulnerability Disclosure Framework for details). This is _exactly_ the kind of information that should be posted there. Jim -- James N. Duncan, CISSP Manager, Juniper Networks Security Incident Response Team (Juniper SIRT) E-mail: jdun...@juniper.net Mobile: +1 919 608 0748 PGP key fingerprint: E09E EA55 DA28 1399 75EB D6A2 7092 9A9C 6DC3 1821 - Original Message - From: Bret Palsson [mailto:b...@getjive.com] Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 09:45 PM To: Nathan Eisenberg nat...@atlasnetworks.us Cc: nanog@nanog.org nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Contact for va.gov Wouldn't the world be a better place if the ARIN contact information was correct and usable. It would be nice to have an easy place for these types of requests. I guess maybe this list is that place. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 14, 2011, at 7:33 PM, Nathan Eisenberg nat...@atlasnetworks.us wrote: Yes, two in one day. Wholesalers don't wipe device configs, apparently. Anyways, would a technical contact for va.gov please contact me off-list? Best Regards, Nathan Eisenberg
RE: Contact for va.gov
Is tracking down the original user and letting them know about the config leak a standard practice, necessary or the right thing to do? Municipal networks often provide some emergency services, and we all know what the VA provides. Once you know whose gear it is, I guess you have to decide if you'd be willing to have a little bit of that organization's (or their patrons) blood on your hands. Especially in the case of the VA, for me, the answer is 'hell no'. If it was Joes defunct sprocket startup, I'd likely just format flash: and move on. Nathan
Re: Contact for va.gov
On 04/14/2011 07:54 PM, Nathan Eisenberg wrote: Is tracking down the original user and letting them know about the config leak a standard practice, necessary or the right thing to do? Municipal networks often provide some emergency services, and we all know what the VA provides. Once you know whose gear it is, I guess you have to decide if you'd be willing to have a little bit of that organization's (or their patrons) blood on your hands. Especially in the case of the VA, for me, the answer is 'hell no'. If it was Joes defunct sprocket startup, I'd likely just format flash: and move on. A few months back I had exactly this situation - I bought a switch off ebay that was still loaded with it's config, and it had come from yahoo.com. Now, I am the good netizen and I flagged them about this and was able to help them find the source which I assume they 'fixed' this leak. The data in the fig file could have been (mis)used to yahoo's network security disadvantage and wherever you stand I think we all can agree that cluing them in was the right thing to do. But for someone else's startup, probably would not have bothered. Mike-
