Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone?
On (2011-04-29 18:34 -0400), david raistrick wrote: 3) as an a midstream network provider I have almost no motivation to support this. Sure, my network usage would be reduced - but I (more or less simplified here, but) make my living on each bit of traffic I carry - if I offered a way for providers and consumers to reduce their traffic, that would reduce the amount they pay me. Win for them, lose for me. Aye. I'm always flabbergasted people complaining how other people should see the light and start to support multicast so we could reduce global bandwidth consumption. But multicast does not scale to global use, biggest problem is that for a router multicast is like flow switching, every flow you need to program in hardware. This means we'd need to regulate how and who can establish global multicast flow, which would unavoidably be unfair to some people. Second problem is security, random Internet user cannot change state in your routers today (except edge router ARP, which already is exploitable security problem), with multicast they can cause state to be changed in whole Internet. You need to be able to limit how many groups port can join, how fast port can join/leave per second, what groups port can join, same requirement is true for MSDP peers. It gets quite complex, quite fast, and these filters should be hardware based. We still regularly have security issues in BGP, it would be extremely unlikely if multicast didn't have lot of crash-Internet potential, due to end users ability to add/remove states from the core. Multicast has been and continues today to be solution for enterprise/application specific problems in closed domain and of course academic interest. If we actually want to reduce global bandwidth consumption, we need protocol which is stateless at least in in core. -- ++ytti
Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone? (was: Royal Wedding...)
On 30/04/2011, at 5:44 AM, John Levine jo...@iecc.com wrote: Delivering multicast to end users is fundamentally not hard. The biggest issue seems to be with residential CPE (pretty much the same problem as IPv6, really). Well, more than that, since I don't really want my DSL pipe saturated with TV that I'm not watching, you need some way for the CPE to tell the ISP send me stream N I suppose with some sort of spanning three thing it'd even be posssible to do that at multuple levels, so the streams are only fed to people who have clients for it. R's, John Or your set top box... multicast joins from STB to DSLAM aren't so hard. ATT U-Verse has been doing it for more than five years now. jy
Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone? (was: Royal Wedding...)
On Friday, April 29, 2011 03:37:04 PM Jay Ashworth wrote: You've conflated my two points. That would tell the *carriers* who's watching what, but they probably don't care. I was talking about *the providers* knowing (think DRM and 3096 viewers online). And then if there's music, the SoundExchange rules..to be 'legal' you have to count 'performances' and file forms with information on performances, and pull out the information on the work performed.preferably with ISRC information.
Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone? (was: Royal Wedding...)
On Friday, April 29, 2011 05:16:51 PM George Bonser wrote: But if broadcast events over the internet are treated the same as broadcast events over RF, who cares? They're not; that's the problem. For the US, at least, the Copyright Office of the Library of Congress has statutory authority in this; for digital performances there is one and only one avenue, and that's through SoundExchange.
Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone?
Once upon a time, Daniel Roesen d...@cluenet.de said: That reminds me of 9/11. When the tragic event unfolded, we sat in the office. News made the rounds verbally, and people started looking for streaming services at their personal desks (no TVs around). People pretty quickly gave up trying to find streams and news portals which were actually working fine and the crowd gathering behind me watching over my shoulder became bigger and bigger. We had a TV in the office then, but now we don't. The other big news event of the week, the tornadoes in the south (especially here in Alabama), meant we were filling up our office bandwidth much of the day Wednesday, watching the local weathermen to find out if we (or our family and friends) were next. This was an exceedingly unusual event in terms of magnitude, but the watching to see where the tornadoes go part is fairly regular around here this time of year. Every time there is a severe weather outbreak, we see our bandwidth usage go up significantly (especially when it is during the business day). As an admin at a small ISP, I'll admit we don't have multicast set up in our network, in part because every time I've looked, I just end up confused. Kind of like IPv6 was for a long time, except IPv6 has more attention and so more people writing better (easier to understand) info. Of course, we provide DSL via PPPoE (wholesaler, so we don't have a choice in the setup), so there isn't much we can do to help with that level. That's where we could gain the most of course; we sometimes see nearly double the DSL traffic for big events (not for the wedding though, since most of our customers don't have electricity). The last mile is usually the bottleneck, but that's the hardest nut to crack. -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.
Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone? (was: Royal Wedding...)
On Sat, 30 Apr 2011, Chris Adams wrote: I can also see how this affects the ISPs providing bandwidth to the content providers. In our colo for example, we rate-limit customers to the paid-for bandwidth at the colo port. With multicast however, they could use significantly more bandwidth, because every router in our network could potentially send the stream to many ports. Only if you're using hubs or dumb switches. If your switch is multicast aware, the multicast traffic only goes to ports with active listeners for a particular group. Routers send multicast traffic only if there are active downstream listeners (where downstream doesn't mean the same for unicast as it does multicast). -- Antonio Querubin e-mail: t...@lavanauts.org xmpp: antonioqueru...@gmail.com
Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone? (was: Royal Wedding...)
On Sat, 30 Apr 2011 10:34:15 -0700, Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net wrote: Once upon a time, Octavio Alvarez alvar...@alvarezp.ods.org said: So the first user in a router tunes to a multicast stream. Consumption for the ISP and all the routers in the chain to the source: same as if it were a unicast stream. Then a second user tunes to a multicast stream. Cost for the ISP: zero. How does this affect peering, when some providers want bandwidth ratios in a certain range? I can also see how this affects the ISPs providing bandwidth to the content providers. In our colo for example, we rate-limit customers to the paid-for bandwidth at the colo port. With multicast however, they could use significantly more bandwidth, because every router in our network could potentially send the stream to many ports. You are billing your content provider for the bandwidth consumption at his port not because you intend to bill him for the bandwidth of content provided, but for the bandwidth of content delivered to the end user! The end-user is ALREADY PAYING for that bandwidth! Something is *really* broken there. -- Octavio. Twitter: @alvarezp2000 -- Identi.ca: @alvarezp
Re: How do you put a TV station on the Mbone?
On Fri, 29 Apr 2011 19:57:42 CDT, Robert Bonomi said: There's a layer 9 (or is it 10? wry grin -- required for legal reasons) answer for that. This layer goes to 11... :) pgpaSdXsuQH8i.pgp Description: PGP signature
