http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/05/government-betrayed-internet-nsa-spying
The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back
The NSA has undermined a fundamental social contract. We engineers built the
Internet – and now we have to fix it
Bruce Schneier
Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org wrote:
We engineers built the Internet – and now we have to fix it
Nonsense. This is not a technical issue, it's a socio-political issue. It’s
both naive distracting to try solve this set of problems with code and/or
silicon, when it must in fact be addressed
We engineers built the Internet – and now we have to fix it
There are no purely technical solutions to social ills.
no. there are many issues in many arenas. but we are responsible for
cleaning up our side of the street.
randy
I believe you are correct, whatever technical hurdles we put in place
will be overcome by policy. As long as you can legally require me to
make my network intercept able for lawful purposes and are able to
prevent me from explaining these purposes to my users any security that
I would put in
That and ignoring it will only continue to affect the code/silicon arena.
Social problems are always affected by who throws the biggest fit.
On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 4:18 AM, Randy Bush ra...@psg.com wrote:
We engineers built the Internet – and now we have to fix it
There are no purely
Who's going to pay for the cleanup? The same people who are/were paid to
create the mess? Clearly many of the tin foil hat theories are now
becoming common place. I really don't know if there is any way out of this
stateside, it's legislated.
On 9/6/13 3:18 AM, Randy Bush ra...@psg.com wrote:
On 9/6/2013 5:23 AM, Bryan Tong wrote:
That and ignoring it will only continue to affect the code/silicon arena.
Social problems are always affected by who throws the biggest fit.
On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 4:18 AM, Randy Bush ra...@psg.com wrote:
We engineers built the Internet – and now we
On 2013-09-06 05:57, Roland Dobbins wrote:
There are no purely technical solutions to social ills. Schneier of
all people should know this.
Schneier does know this, and explicitly said this.
-jsq
True I shot from the hip, he does address the concerns later. I'm used
to implementing technologies to solve security problems. It's just damn
frustrating to have your hands tied in such a way that you can not and
that's the position that I see myself and most other network ops in.
Our
True I shot from the hip, he does address the concerns later.
It happens.
I'm used
to implementing technologies to solve security problems. It's just damn
frustrating to have your hands tied in such a way that you can not and
that's the position that I see myself and most other network
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/05/government-betrayed-internet-nsa-spying
The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back
Who is we ?
-J
On Fri, 6 Sep 2013 07:46:59 -0500
Jorge Amodio jmamo...@gmail.com wrote:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/05/government-betrayed-internet-nsa-spying
The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back
Who is we ?
If you bothered to read the 1st
From: Sam Moats [mailto:s...@circlenet.us]
I give up trying to resist, I am now firmly in the tin foil hat club.
And therein lies the problem.
The answer is
not much because I will not and can not break the law, it's unethical
and wrong.
I invite you to consider the concept of civil disobedience--where the law
is unethical or wrong it can be argued that it's also unethical and wrong
to FOLLOW the law.
I haven't yet been placed in a
On 6 September 2013 11:37, Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org wrote:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/05/government-betrayed-internet-nsa-spying
The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back
Its like you have to abandon USA based encryptation systems that are
The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back
Who is we ?
If you bothered to read the 1st paragraph you would know.
I read all of it, the original article and other references to it.
IMHO, there is no amount of engineering that can fix stupid people doing
The error in this whole conversation is that you cannot take it back as an
engineer. You do not own it. You are like an architect or carpenter and are
no more responsible for how it is used than the architect is responsible that
the building he designed is being used as a crack house. Do
On Fri, 06 Sep 2013 10:24:26 -, Warren Bailey said:
Who's going to pay for the cleanup? The same people who are/were paid to
create the mess? Clearly many of the tin foil hat theories are now
becoming common place. I really don't know if there is any way out of this
stateside, it's
+1 I couldn't have said it any better.
Sam
On 2013-09-06 10:27, Naslund, Steve wrote:
The error in this whole conversation is that you cannot take it
back as an engineer. You do not own it. You are like an architect
or carpenter and are no more responsible for how it is used than the
So when do we riot? I've been waiting for months now.
On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 8:50 AM, Jorge Amodio jmamo...@gmail.com wrote:
The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back
Who is we ?
If you bothered to read the 1st paragraph you would know.
I read
I don't suggest a riot. I do believe in the rule of law, as a member of
a democracy
I need to accept that I will not always agree with the laws that are
enacted. If we
lived in China or somewhere else where there was no method to change
laws that were
unfair or unjust then yea I would support
I don't suggest a riot. I do believe in the rule of law, as a member of
a democracy
I need to accept that I will not always agree with the laws that are
enacted.
Well that's all nice and all, but what you're missing here is that this
has very little to do with laws that are enacted. When
On Sep 5, 2013, at 8:26 PM, Jay Ashworth j...@baylink.com wrote:
They're just validating a credit card number; that was an authorization which
won't be settled, almost certainly.
I'd have more faith in that if a) there weren't three of them and b) they
didn't then tell me that my credit
Sure. But the failure is /why/ you have three...
-jra
Kee Hinckley naz...@somewhere.com wrote:
On Sep 5, 2013, at 8:26 PM, Jay Ashworth j...@baylink.com wrote:
They're just validating a credit card number; that was an
authorization which won't be settled, almost certainly.
I'd have more faith
We have to do the right thing anyway because as engineers we are always
motivated to innovate, to fix, to make things better. Motivation has not to
come form the NSA or any other spooking service of the day. Even if we
design and deploy the best engineering solution there is always a weak link
On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Jorge Amodio jmamo...@gmail.com wrote:
IMHO, there is no amount of engineering that can fix stupid people doing
stupid things on both sides of the stupid lines.
Yes but there is engineering to ensure that they have the opportunity
to do the right thing in the
This is part of the purpose behind the separation of powers between
executive, legislative and judicial.
William Pitt wrote Unlimited power is apt to corrupt the minds of
those who possess it . As such constraints
are needed and in place.
We expect politician to cheat,lie,be stupid and self
On Sep 5, 2013, at 8:26 PM, Jay Ashworth j...@baylink.com wrote:
They're just validating a credit card number; that was an authorization which
won't be settled, almost certainly.
I'd have more faith in that if a) there weren't three of them and b) they
didn't then tell me that my credit
On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 6:27 AM, Naslund, Steve snasl...@medline.com wrote:
[snip]
1. We vote in a new executive branch every four years. They control and
appoint the NSA director. Vote them out if you don't like how they run
things. Do you think a President wants to maintain power? Of
On Fri, Sep 06, 2013 at 02:27:32PM +, Naslund, Steve wrote:
If everyone cancelled their gmail accounts, stopped using Google search,
and stopped paying for Google placement and ads, their stock would go to
zero nearly overnight. Again, no one seems to care about the issue
enough to do
Just call your senator and ask her/him to stop signing the checks ...
-J
The biggest mistake everyone is making is that while we are talking about
what the USGOV/NSA
in this instance you assume this is the only entity behaving in this manner.
Morpheus http://www.imdb.com/name/nm401/?ref_=tt_trv_qu: This is
your last chance. After this, there is no turning back.
On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 6:55 AM, Royce Williams ro...@techsolvency.com wrote:
Daniel Ellsberg's attempt to explain this to Kissinger is insightful. It's a
pretty quick read, with many layers of important observations. (It's Mother
Jones, but this content is apolitical):
On Fri, Sep 06, 2013 at 01:52:16PM -0400, Sam Moats wrote:
The problem being is when you do have a provider that appears to be
secure and out of reach, think lavabit, that provider will not survive
for long.
That's true -- it is far easier to subvert email than most other
services, and in
On 09/06/2013 12:14 PM, Eugen Leitl wrote:
On Fri, Sep 06, 2013 at 12:03:56PM -0700, Michael Thomas wrote:
On 09/06/2013 11:19 AM, Nicolai wrote:
That's true -- it is far easier to subvert email than most other
services, and in the case of email we probably need a wholly new
protocol.
Uh, a
The problem being is when you do have a provider that appears to be
secure
and out of reach, think lavabit, that provider will not survive for
long.
The CALEA requirements, and Patriot Act provisions will force them into
compliance.
There only options are to:
Disobey the law,
On Fri, Sep 06, 2013 at 12:03:56PM -0700, Michael Thomas wrote:
On 09/06/2013 11:19 AM, Nicolai wrote:
That's true -- it is far easier to subvert email than most other
services, and in the case of email we probably need a wholly new
protocol.
Uh, a first step might be to just turn on
On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 7:23 AM, Sam Moats s...@circlenet.us wrote:
...
Below is a sample banner (IS is information System)
By using this IS (which includes any device attached to this IS), you
consent to the following conditions:
-The USG routinely intercepts and monitors communications on
TL; DR: Email won't be delivered, No support
I have two domains that I set up with Postini for spam filtering, and I
was very happy for years. But Google purchased Postini, and has been
increasingly insistent that I migrate to Google Apps. They have a
transition process which is supposedly
On 09/06/2013 12:52 PM, Nicolai wrote:
On Fri, Sep 06, 2013 at 12:03:56PM -0700, Michael Thomas wrote:
On 09/06/2013 11:19 AM, Nicolai wrote:
That's true -- it is far easier to subvert email than most other
services, and in the case of email we probably need a wholly new
protocol.
Uh, a
Once upon a time, Nicolai nicolai-na...@chocolatine.org said:
Agreed. Although some people are uncomfortable with OpenSSL's track record,
and don't want to trade system security for better-than-plaintext
network security.
OpenSSL is not the only game in town.
--
Chris Adams c...@cmadams.net
On Fri, Sep 06, 2013 at 12:03:56PM -0700, Michael Thomas wrote:
On 09/06/2013 11:19 AM, Nicolai wrote:
That's true -- it is far easier to subvert email than most other
services, and in the case of email we probably need a wholly new
protocol.
Uh, a first step might be to just turn on
If you are considering attending a NANOG meeting, and need a bit of
assistance, consider submitting a NANOG Fellowship application.
Fellowship Applicants are eligible if they meet all the criteria of either
Fellowship, currently reside in the North American Region served by NANOG,
and have not
The problem being is when you do have a provider that appears to be
secure
and out of reach, think lavabit, that provider will not survive for
long.
The CALEA requirements, and Patriot Act provisions will force them into
compliance.
There only options are to:
Disobey the law, unacceptable in my
Not sure exactly what you are looking for, but how about:
http://localcallingguide.com/ (Free/open copy of certain LERG tables,
should list all providers in a given RC/LATA/NPA-NXX)
or
http://www.telcodata.us/
Hope that helps,
-Scott
-Original Message-
From: Stefan
MAN UP!
From: Sam Moats s...@circlenet.us
To: nanog@nanog.org
Sent: Friday, September 6, 2013 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it
back
This is part of the purpose behind the separation of powers between
My dad told once me they could indict a ham sandwich. I never really knew what
meant..
A law does not mean an automatic grant of constitutionality. I'm all for
following laws, but at what point does the public just say.. The threat isn't
large enough to warrant a protcologist visit via NSA to
This is an automated weekly mailing describing the state of the Internet
Routing Table as seen from APNIC's router in Japan.
The posting is sent to APOPS, NANOG, AfNOG, AusNOG, SANOG, PacNOG, LacNOG,
TRNOG, CaribNOG and the RIPE Routing Working Group.
Daily listings are sent to
Just following orders...
From: Sam Moats s...@circlenet.us
To: nanog@nanog.org
Sent: Friday, September 6, 2013 7:30 AM
Subject: RE: The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it
back
+1 I couldn't have said it any better.
Sam
On
On 9/6/2013 8:08 AM, John Peach wrote:
On Fri, 6 Sep 2013 07:46:59 -0500 Jorge Amodio jmamo...@gmail.com
wrote:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/05/government-betrayed-internet-nsa-spying
The US government has betrayed the Internet. We need to take it back
Who is we
--- s...@circlenet.us wrote:
From: Sam Moats s...@circlenet.us
There only options are to:
Disobey the law, unacceptable in my opinion
Close down services, noble but I need to eat and you probably want to
keep getting email
Compromise your principles and obey the law, the path often choosen.
On Fri, Sep 06, 2013 at 01:04:48PM -0700, Michael Thomas wrote:
I'd say we already have those things too in the form of PGP/SMIME.
Who knows what the NSA can break, but it's just not right to say that
we need new protocols. The means has been there for many years to
secure email (fsvo
On 09/06/2013 11:19 AM, Nicolai wrote:
That's true -- it is far easier to subvert email than most other
services, and in the case of email we probably need a wholly new
protocol.
Uh, a first step might be to just turn on [START]TLS. We're not using the
tools that have been implemented and
This report has been generated at Fri Sep 6 21:14:04 2013 AEST.
The report analyses the BGP Routing Table of AS2.0 router
and generates a report on aggregation potential within the table.
Check http://www.cidr-report.org for a current version of this report.
Recent Table History
Date
On 6 September 2013 10:52, Sam Moats s...@circlenet.us wrote:
The problem being is when you do have a provider that appears to be secure
and out of reach, think lavabit, that provider will not survive for long.
The CALEA requirements, and Patriot Act provisions will force them into
compliance.
I am unclear on what you mean by technical choice. Are you talking about a
technical solution to keep the government from seeing your traffic? That will
not work for two main reasons.
1. The government has a lot more resources and motivation than the average
company when it comes to
BGP Update Report
Interval: 29-Aug-13 -to- 05-Sep-13 (7 days)
Observation Point: BGP Peering with AS131072
TOP 20 Unstable Origin AS
Rank ASNUpds % Upds/PfxAS-Name
1 - AS6866 122404 5.8% 683.8 -- CYTA-NETWORK Cyprus
Telecommunications Authority
2 -
On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 8:02 AM, Naslund, Steve snasl...@medline.com wrote:
I am unclear on what you mean by technical choice. Are you talking about a
technical solution to keep the government from seeing your traffic? That
will not work for two main reasons.
[good reasons snipped]
Ah, I
Great opportunity for a country like Brazil (for example) to become a place of
business for many of these services which are subject to Calea (and such) in
the US. This type of behavior is certainly a motivator for folks in other
countries to benefit, to our detriment.
If the NSA is truly
On Fri, 2013-09-06 at 23:03 +, Paul Donner (pdonner) wrote:
Great opportunity for a country like Brazil (for example) to become a
place of business for many of these services which are subject to
Calea (and such) in the US. This type of behavior is certainly a
motivator for folks in other
This has been known for years so why the sudden list spam
Calea in Canada goes into full force jan 1 2014 and yes it was meant to stop
pedo bears but it is much farther reaching
Sent from my iPhone
On 2013-09-06, at 5:33 PM, Scott Weeks sur...@mauigateway.com wrote:
---
The problem is that the US govt and others have been sucked into a
vortex of bad game theory.
They believe we the people don't want any terrorist acts against us,
or minimized as much as possible, which is roughly: none.
This belief is reasonable.
Worse, terrorism has become a political weapon
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