Bluehost.com

[JoeSox]

Anyone have the scope on the outage for Bluehost?
https://twitter.com/search?q=%23bluehostdown=tyah

Cannot even move my DNS until its restored. :(
I suggest moving the status page to outside your network as well.
https://www.bluehost.com/hosting/serverstatus

--
Later, Joe

RE: SevOne Monitoring

[Naslund, Steve]

I looked at SevOne and liked the product a lot.  One thing we found was that 
the pricing model escalates pretty rapidly because they count every OBJECT you 
monitor, not every device.  So if I am looking at Bytes In, Bytes Out, Errors 
In, etc on a single interface those are all counted as a separate OBJECT 
against your license count.  You really have to be more selective about what 
you want to see which to me is really inconvenient because often you don't know 
what SNMP object you want to look at until a problem surfaces.  One of the 
strengths I really liked was the trending capability that helps you predict 
capacity issues before you hit them.

Summary:  Good product, real expensive in wide deployment.

Steven Naslund
Chicago IL

-Original Message-
From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Paul Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 2:55 AM
To: 'NANOG'
Subject: SevOne Monitoring

Hey folks.

 

Looking for feedback from actual customers on SevOne for network monitoring . 
anyone using them and willing to share thoughts online/offline?

 

They have an appealing system for network monitoring and considering it as a 
replacement to Solarwinds. 

 

Cheers,

Paul

 

 

Re: DHCPv6 PD & Routing Questions

[Bjørn Mork]

Mark Andrews  writes:

> This isn't rocket science.  Just use your @#!Q$# brains when you build
> CPE routers.

Right... Still waiting for the first CPE built like that :)


Bjørn

Re: Bluehost.com

[Brielle Bruns]

On 11/25/15 9:41 AM, JoeSox wrote:

Anyone have the scope on the outage for Bluehost?
https://twitter.com/search?q=%23bluehostdown=tyah

Cannot even move my DNS until its restored. :(
I suggest moving the status page to outside your network as well.
https://www.bluehost.com/hosting/serverstatus



I am in the last stages of getting rid of BlueHost for one of my 
clients.  Go figure this would happen _today_ at the exact same time I'm 
getting the last bit of data off so I can cancel the account.



--
Brielle Bruns
The Summit Open Source Development Group
http://www.sosdg.org/ http://www.ahbl.org

Re: SevOne Monitoring

[Mike Lyon]

Can Observium alert on SNMP traps? I seem to remember that it couldn't do
that...

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 12:59 PM, James Greig  wrote:

> Depending on what you're after observium might be worth looking into. I
> run solarwinds, paessler and observium but neither are as clear and as
> useful for monitoring network as observium ( My opinion only of course )
>
> Kind regards
>
> James Greig
>
> > On 25 Nov 2015, at 08:54, Paul Stewart  wrote:
> >
> > Hey folks.
> >
> >
> >
> > Looking for feedback from actual customers on SevOne for network
> monitoring
> > . anyone using them and willing to share thoughts online/offline?
> >
> >
> >
> > They have an appealing system for network monitoring and considering it
> as a
> > replacement to Solarwinds.
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>



-- 
Mike Lyon
408-621-4826
mike.l...@gmail.com

http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon

Re: DHCPv6 PD & Routing Questions

[Mark Andrews]

In message 
, Brian 
Knight writes:
> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 6:34 PM, Baldur Norddahl
>  wrote:
> >
> > DHCPv6-PD allows multiple PD requests. But did anyone actually implement
> > that? I am not aware of any device that will hand out sub delegations on
> > one interface, notice that it is out of address space and then go request
> > more space from the upstream router (*).
> >
> > DHCPv6-PD allows size hints, but it is often ignored. Also there is no
> > guidance for what prefix sizes you should ask for. Many CPEs will ask for
> > /48. If you got a /48 you will give out that /48 and then not honor any
> > further requests, because only one /48 per site is allowed. If you are an
> > ISP that gives out /48 and your customers CPE asks for a /56 you will still
> > ignore his size hint and give him /48.
> 
> Or, worse, the ISP's DHCPv6 server honors the new request and issues
> the larger prefix, but refuses to route it.  Ran into that myself when
> I replaced my home CPE router, and changed the prefix hint to ask for
> a /60 block (expanded from /64) at the same time.  That made for a
> frustrating few days without IPv6 service, waiting for my original
> delegation to expire.  (Tech support, of course, had no clue and
> blamed my router.)
> 
> In retrospect I should have perhaps had my original CPE generate a
> DHCP release message for that prefix before disconnecting it.  But I
> won't be the last person to fail to generate that.
> 
> -Brian

Well the requesting router could announce the route.  ISC's client
has hooks that allow this to be done.  That is, after all, how
routing is designed to work.  The DHCP server usually is sitting
in a data center on the other side of the country with zero ability
to inject approptiate routes.

The DHCP relay could also have injected routes but that is a second
class solution.

Mark
-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: ma...@isc.org

Re: Bluehost.com

[Bob Evans]

Yes, I agree with you Joe - a hasty generalization,  as "you get what you
pay for" doesn't really apply to as many goods in the same way it does to
almost all services. However, a $3.49 web site service should have be a
good first clue.

Thank You
Bob Evans
CTO




> Walmart has cheap prices so "you get what you pay for."??
> Hasty generalization but I can't disagree 100% with your opinion on this
> one.
> I am learning about the non-profit world of IT and the challenges are all
> around me. :)
>
> --
> Later, Joe
>
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 12:27 PM, Bob Evans 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Gee, for $3.49 for a website hosting per month , it's a real bargain.
>> While the network person inside me says, Wow that's a long outage. The
>> other part of me is really wondering what one thinks they can really
>> expect from a company that hosts a website for just $3.49 ?  Such a
>> bargain at less than 1/2 the price of a single hot dog at a baseball
>> stadium per month. That price point alone tells you about the setup and
>> what you are agreeing too and who it's built for. Goes along with the
>> ol'
>> saying, "you get what you pay for."
>>
>> If they are down for 10 hours a month out of the average 720 hours in a
>> month - thats a tiny percentage 1-2 of the time it's unavailable - in
>> service terms of dollars it's roughly a nickel they credit each
>> customer.
>> Do I need more coffee or is my math wrong about a nickel for 10 hours of
>> website hosing ?
>>
>> However, maybe that is all many companies /sites really need. In which
>> case, it should be easy enough to build in backup yourself using two
>> cheap
>> hosing providers and flip between them when the need arises. Or pick a
>> provider that manages their routing well and works with you quickly,
>> but,
>> you'll have to pay more for that.
>>
>> Yep, the math spells it out -  "you get what you pay for."
>>
>> Thank You
>> Bob Evans
>> CTO
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > remember folks, redundancy is the savior of all f***ups.
>> >
>> > :)
>> >
>> > On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 2:21 PM, JoeSox  wrote:
>> >
>> >> I just waited 160 minutes for a tech call and the Bluehost tech told
>> me
>> >> he
>> >> was able to confirm that it wasn't malicious activity that took down
>> the
>> >> datacenter but rather it was caused by a "datacenter issue".
>> >> So my first thought is someone didn't design the topology correctly
>> or
>> >> something.
>> >> Some of our emails are coming thru but Google DNS still lost all of
>> our
>> >> DNS
>> >> zones which are hosted by Bluehost.
>> >> At least the #bluehostdown is fun to read :/
>> >> --
>> >> Later, Joe
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer
>> >> 
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 08:41:55AM -0800,
>> >> >  JoeSox  wrote
>> >> >  a message of 9 lines which said:
>> >> >
>> >> > > Anyone have the scope on the outage for Bluehost?
>> >> > > https://twitter.com/search?q=%23bluehostdown=tyah
>> >> >
>> >> > The two name servers ns1.bluehost.com and ns2.bluehost.com are
>> awfully
>> >> > slow to respond:
>> >> >
>> >> > % check-soa -i picturemotion.com
>> >> > ns1.bluehost.com.
>> >> > 74.220.195.31: OK: 2012092007 (1382 ms)
>> >> > ns2.bluehost.com.
>> >> > 69.89.16.4: OK: 2012092007 (1388 ms)
>> >> >
>> >> > As a result, most clients timeout.
>> >> >
>> >> > May be a DoS against the name servers?
>> >> >
>> >> > bluehost.com itself is DNS-hosted on a completely different
>> >> > architecture. So it works fine. But the nginx Web site replies 502
>> >> > Gateway timeout, probably overloaded by all the clients trying to
>> get
>> >> > informed.
>> >> >
>> >> > The Twitter accounts of Bluehost do not distribute any useful
>> >> > information.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: SevOne Monitoring

[Mike Lyon]

Shucks.


On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 4:03 PM, James Greig  wrote:

> No, as far as I know that's work in progress at the moment.  The alert
> system works well for anything polled though but depends how often you're
> polling
>
> James Greig
>
> On 25 Nov 2015, at 23:49, Mike Lyon  wrote:
>
> Can Observium alert on SNMP traps? I seem to remember that it couldn't do
> that...
>
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 12:59 PM, James Greig  wrote:
>
>> Depending on what you're after observium might be worth looking into. I
>> run solarwinds, paessler and observium but neither are as clear and as
>> useful for monitoring network as observium ( My opinion only of course )
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>> James Greig
>>
>> > On 25 Nov 2015, at 08:54, Paul Stewart  wrote:
>> >
>> > Hey folks.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Looking for feedback from actual customers on SevOne for network
>> monitoring
>> > . anyone using them and willing to share thoughts online/offline?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > They have an appealing system for network monitoring and considering it
>> as a
>> > replacement to Solarwinds.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> > Paul
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Mike Lyon
> 408-621-4826
> mike.l...@gmail.com
>
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon
>
>
>
>


-- 
Mike Lyon
408-621-4826
mike.l...@gmail.com

http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon

Re: Bluehost.com

[Valdis . Kletnieks]

On Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:06:30 +1100, Matt Palmer said:

> Except for the fuckups that the redundancy *caused*...

You can't have split-brain failures if there isn't enough brain to split? :)


pgpYyCs8TIJTE.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: SevOne Monitoring

[James Greig]

Depending on what you're after observium might be worth looking into. I run 
solarwinds, paessler and observium but neither are as clear and as useful for 
monitoring network as observium ( My opinion only of course )

Kind regards

James Greig 

> On 25 Nov 2015, at 08:54, Paul Stewart  wrote:
> 
> Hey folks.
> 
> 
> 
> Looking for feedback from actual customers on SevOne for network monitoring
> . anyone using them and willing to share thoughts online/offline?
> 
> 
> 
> They have an appealing system for network monitoring and considering it as a
> replacement to Solarwinds. 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Paul
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: Bluehost.com

[Robert Webb]

However, with thousands more users at that price point, you would think the 
income would be plenty for better services.


Who makes more, the store with smaller quantities at higher prices or the 
store that sells more bulk at lower prices? Perception of value, I believe, 
wins.


Robert

On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:00:37 -0800
 "Bob Evans"  wrote:
Yes, I agree with you Joe - a hasty generalization,  as "you get 
what you
pay for" doesn't really apply to as many goods in the same way it 
does to
almost all services. However, a $3.49 web site service should have 
be a

good first clue.

Thank You
Bob Evans
CTO



Walmart has cheap prices so "you get what you pay for."??
Hasty generalization but I can't disagree 100% with your opinion on 
this

one.
I am learning about the non-profit world of IT and the challenges 
are all

around me. :)

--
Later, Joe

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 12:27 PM, Bob Evans 


wrote:



Gee, for $3.49 for a website hosting per month , it's a real 
bargain.
While the network person inside me says, Wow that's a long outage. 
The

other part of me is really wondering what one thinks they can really
expect from a company that hosts a website for just $3.49 ?  Such a
bargain at less than 1/2 the price of a single hot dog at a baseball
stadium per month. That price point alone tells you about the setup 
and
what you are agreeing too and who it's built for. Goes along with 
the

ol'
saying, "you get what you pay for."

If they are down for 10 hours a month out of the average 720 hours 
in a
month - thats a tiny percentage 1-2 of the time it's unavailable - 
in

service terms of dollars it's roughly a nickel they credit each
customer.
Do I need more coffee or is my math wrong about a nickel for 10 
hours of

website hosing ?

However, maybe that is all many companies /sites really need. In 
which

case, it should be easy enough to build in backup yourself using two
cheap
hosing providers and flip between them when the need arises. Or pick 
a

provider that manages their routing well and works with you quickly,
but,
you'll have to pay more for that.

Yep, the math spells it out -  "you get what you pay for."

Thank You
Bob Evans
CTO


> remember folks, redundancy is the savior of all f***ups.
>
> :)
>
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 2:21 PM, JoeSox  wrote:
>
>> I just waited 160 minutes for a tech call and the Bluehost tech 
told

me
>> he
>> was able to confirm that it wasn't malicious activity that took 
down

the
>> datacenter but rather it was caused by a "datacenter issue".
>> So my first thought is someone didn't design the topology 
correctly

or
>> something.
>> Some of our emails are coming thru but Google DNS still lost all 
of

our
>> DNS
>> zones which are hosted by Bluehost.
>> At least the #bluehostdown is fun to read :/
>> --
>> Later, Joe
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer
>> 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 08:41:55AM -0800,
>> >  JoeSox  wrote
>> >  a message of 9 lines which said:
>> >
>> > > Anyone have the scope on the outage for Bluehost?
>> > > https://twitter.com/search?q=%23bluehostdown=tyah
>> >
>> > The two name servers ns1.bluehost.com and ns2.bluehost.com are
awfully
>> > slow to respond:
>> >
>> > % check-soa -i picturemotion.com
>> > ns1.bluehost.com.
>> > 74.220.195.31: OK: 2012092007 (1382 ms)
>> > ns2.bluehost.com.
>> > 69.89.16.4: OK: 2012092007 (1388 ms)
>> >
>> > As a result, most clients timeout.
>> >
>> > May be a DoS against the name servers?
>> >
>> > bluehost.com itself is DNS-hosted on a completely different
>> > architecture. So it works fine. But the nginx Web site replies 
502
>> > Gateway timeout, probably overloaded by all the clients trying 
to

get
>> > informed.
>> >
>> > The Twitter accounts of Bluehost do not distribute any useful
>> > information.
>> >
>>
>

Re: DHCPv6 PD & Routing Questions

[Brian Knight]

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 6:34 PM, Baldur Norddahl
 wrote:
>
> DHCPv6-PD allows multiple PD requests. But did anyone actually implement
> that? I am not aware of any device that will hand out sub delegations on
> one interface, notice that it is out of address space and then go request
> more space from the upstream router (*).
>
> DHCPv6-PD allows size hints, but it is often ignored. Also there is no
> guidance for what prefix sizes you should ask for. Many CPEs will ask for
> /48. If you got a /48 you will give out that /48 and then not honor any
> further requests, because only one /48 per site is allowed. If you are an
> ISP that gives out /48 and your customers CPE asks for a /56 you will still
> ignore his size hint and give him /48.

Or, worse, the ISP's DHCPv6 server honors the new request and issues
the larger prefix, but refuses to route it.  Ran into that myself when
I replaced my home CPE router, and changed the prefix hint to ask for
a /60 block (expanded from /64) at the same time.  That made for a
frustrating few days without IPv6 service, waiting for my original
delegation to expire.  (Tech support, of course, had no clue and
blamed my router.)

In retrospect I should have perhaps had my original CPE generate a
DHCP release message for that prefix before disconnecting it.  But I
won't be the last person to fail to generate that.

-Brian

Re: Bluehost.com

[Matt Palmer]

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 02:24:05PM -0500, Andrew Kirch wrote:
> remember folks, redundancy is the savior of all f***ups.

Except for the fuckups that the redundancy *caused*...

- Matt

Re: Bluehost.com

[JoeSox]

Walmart has cheap prices so "you get what you pay for."??
Hasty generalization but I can't disagree 100% with your opinion on this
one.
I am learning about the non-profit world of IT and the challenges are all
around me. :)

--
Later, Joe

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 12:27 PM, Bob Evans 
wrote:

>
> Gee, for $3.49 for a website hosting per month , it's a real bargain.
> While the network person inside me says, Wow that's a long outage. The
> other part of me is really wondering what one thinks they can really
> expect from a company that hosts a website for just $3.49 ?  Such a
> bargain at less than 1/2 the price of a single hot dog at a baseball
> stadium per month. That price point alone tells you about the setup and
> what you are agreeing too and who it's built for. Goes along with the ol'
> saying, "you get what you pay for."
>
> If they are down for 10 hours a month out of the average 720 hours in a
> month - thats a tiny percentage 1-2 of the time it's unavailable - in
> service terms of dollars it's roughly a nickel they credit each customer.
> Do I need more coffee or is my math wrong about a nickel for 10 hours of
> website hosing ?
>
> However, maybe that is all many companies /sites really need. In which
> case, it should be easy enough to build in backup yourself using two cheap
> hosing providers and flip between them when the need arises. Or pick a
> provider that manages their routing well and works with you quickly, but,
> you'll have to pay more for that.
>
> Yep, the math spells it out -  "you get what you pay for."
>
> Thank You
> Bob Evans
> CTO
>
>
>
>
> > remember folks, redundancy is the savior of all f***ups.
> >
> > :)
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 2:21 PM, JoeSox  wrote:
> >
> >> I just waited 160 minutes for a tech call and the Bluehost tech told me
> >> he
> >> was able to confirm that it wasn't malicious activity that took down the
> >> datacenter but rather it was caused by a "datacenter issue".
> >> So my first thought is someone didn't design the topology correctly or
> >> something.
> >> Some of our emails are coming thru but Google DNS still lost all of our
> >> DNS
> >> zones which are hosted by Bluehost.
> >> At least the #bluehostdown is fun to read :/
> >> --
> >> Later, Joe
> >>
> >> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer
> >> 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 08:41:55AM -0800,
> >> >  JoeSox  wrote
> >> >  a message of 9 lines which said:
> >> >
> >> > > Anyone have the scope on the outage for Bluehost?
> >> > > https://twitter.com/search?q=%23bluehostdown=tyah
> >> >
> >> > The two name servers ns1.bluehost.com and ns2.bluehost.com are
> awfully
> >> > slow to respond:
> >> >
> >> > % check-soa -i picturemotion.com
> >> > ns1.bluehost.com.
> >> > 74.220.195.31: OK: 2012092007 (1382 ms)
> >> > ns2.bluehost.com.
> >> > 69.89.16.4: OK: 2012092007 (1388 ms)
> >> >
> >> > As a result, most clients timeout.
> >> >
> >> > May be a DoS against the name servers?
> >> >
> >> > bluehost.com itself is DNS-hosted on a completely different
> >> > architecture. So it works fine. But the nginx Web site replies 502
> >> > Gateway timeout, probably overloaded by all the clients trying to get
> >> > informed.
> >> >
> >> > The Twitter accounts of Bluehost do not distribute any useful
> >> > information.
> >> >
> >>
> >
>
>
>

Re: Bluehost.com

[Keith Kouzmanoff]

Re: SevOne Monitoring

[James Greig]

No, as far as I know that's work in progress at the moment.  The alert system 
works well for anything polled though but depends how often you're polling

James Greig

> On 25 Nov 2015, at 23:49, Mike Lyon  wrote:
> 
> Can Observium alert on SNMP traps? I seem to remember that it couldn't do 
> that...
> 
>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 12:59 PM, James Greig  wrote:
>> Depending on what you're after observium might be worth looking into. I run 
>> solarwinds, paessler and observium but neither are as clear and as useful 
>> for monitoring network as observium ( My opinion only of course )
>> 
>> Kind regards
>> 
>> James Greig
>> 
>> > On 25 Nov 2015, at 08:54, Paul Stewart  wrote:
>> >
>> > Hey folks.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Looking for feedback from actual customers on SevOne for network monitoring
>> > . anyone using them and willing to share thoughts online/offline?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > They have an appealing system for network monitoring and considering it as 
>> > a
>> > replacement to Solarwinds.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> > Paul
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Mike Lyon
> 408-621-4826
> mike.l...@gmail.com
> 
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon
> 
> 
> 

Re: Bluehost.com

[Bob Evans]

For an ISP type service - it's almost impossible the make it up in volume
- all you need is one phone call to cost you $10 in support on a $3.50
service. With that many customers you can imagine how many call to just
ask what happened or vent after the event is over.

I founded a cable modem business prior to docsis standard. Call center
with 150 people in it. People would call for help with their printer just
because we answered the phone. So support for a $3.49 web service must
make compromises somewhere in an attempt to reach profitability.

I know of 3 very big ISPs - all barely making money for years. Providing
crummy service , priced cheaply and expecting to make it up in volume.
Their solution was to merge and lose money together. Still providing a
lowball price for service , they then took the profitable parts of the
business and sold those to others so they can re-org and improve cash
momentarily. The re-org produced the same low prices and crummy service.
So it's a cycle some people play just to win money from hedge funds,
investors and finally the public. What do they call it when one keeps
doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result ?

Low priced services are difficult to make profitable - if you drove your
car the way most low priced business services operate you would have a car
that top speeds at the minimal freeway speed, wouldnt carry a a spare
tire, drive around until the empty light turns on and carry as little
insurance as possible. - Gee, come to think of it, I've been in an airport
shuttle van like that in new york.

Thank You
Bob Evans
CTO




> However, with thousands more users at that price point, you would think
> the
> income would be plenty for better services.
>
> Who makes more, the store with smaller quantities at higher prices or the
> store that sells more bulk at lower prices? Perception of value, I
> believe,
> wins.
>
> Robert
>
> On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:00:37 -0800
>   "Bob Evans"  wrote:
>> Yes, I agree with you Joe - a hasty generalization,  as "you get
>>what you
>> pay for" doesn't really apply to as many goods in the same way it
>>does to
>> almost all services. However, a $3.49 web site service should have
>>be a
>> good first clue.
>>
>> Thank You
>> Bob Evans
>> CTO
>>
>>
>>> Walmart has cheap prices so "you get what you pay for."??
>>> Hasty generalization but I can't disagree 100% with your opinion on
>>>this
>>> one.
>>> I am learning about the non-profit world of IT and the challenges
>>>are all
>>> around me. :)
>>>
>>> --
>>> Later, Joe
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 12:27 PM, Bob Evans
>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>

 Gee, for $3.49 for a website hosting per month , it's a real
bargain.
 While the network person inside me says, Wow that's a long outage.
The
 other part of me is really wondering what one thinks they can really
 expect from a company that hosts a website for just $3.49 ?  Such a
 bargain at less than 1/2 the price of a single hot dog at a baseball
 stadium per month. That price point alone tells you about the setup
and
 what you are agreeing too and who it's built for. Goes along with
the
 ol'
 saying, "you get what you pay for."

 If they are down for 10 hours a month out of the average 720 hours
in a
 month - thats a tiny percentage 1-2 of the time it's unavailable -
in
 service terms of dollars it's roughly a nickel they credit each
 customer.
 Do I need more coffee or is my math wrong about a nickel for 10
hours of
 website hosing ?

 However, maybe that is all many companies /sites really need. In
which
 case, it should be easy enough to build in backup yourself using two
 cheap
 hosing providers and flip between them when the need arises. Or pick
a
 provider that manages their routing well and works with you quickly,
 but,
 you'll have to pay more for that.

 Yep, the math spells it out -  "you get what you pay for."

 Thank You
 Bob Evans
 CTO


 > remember folks, redundancy is the savior of all f***ups.
 >
 > :)
 >
 > On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 2:21 PM, JoeSox  wrote:
 >
 >> I just waited 160 minutes for a tech call and the Bluehost tech
told
 me
 >> he
 >> was able to confirm that it wasn't malicious activity that took
down
 the
 >> datacenter but rather it was caused by a "datacenter issue".
 >> So my first thought is someone didn't design the topology
correctly
 or
 >> something.
 >> Some of our emails are coming thru but Google DNS still lost all
of
 our
 >> DNS
 >> zones which are hosted by Bluehost.
 >> At least the #bluehostdown is fun to read :/
 >> --
 >> Later, Joe
 >>
 >> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer
 >> 
 

Re: Bluehost.com

[alvin nanog]

hi

On 11/25/15 at 05:19pm, Bob Evans wrote:
> For an ISP type service - it's almost impossible the make it up in volume
> - all you need is one phone call to cost you $10 in support on a $3.50
> service. With that many customers you can imagine how many call to just
> ask what happened or vent after the event is over.
 
a painful reality ... support costs are NOT cheap if one is trying
to keep customers happy 

more customers usually requires more support expenses too and hopeully,
support expenses would start to go down after some critical levels

> I founded a cable modem business prior to docsis standard.

congrats..

> What do they call it when one keeps
> doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result ?

"the internet"
"there's NO sheriff in town"
"there's a (new) sucker born every second"
"dumb money"
"tax deductions - tax write offs"
"i wanna get involved, me too syndrome"
...

> Low priced services are difficult to make profitable 

- pricing strategy vs customer volume is always a tradeoff
- one can always give well behaved customers their discounts from "normal 
pricing"
- one cannot give "good service" when starting from "lowest possible pricing"

magic pixie dust on dah turkey
alvin

RE: Bluehost.com

[Bob Evans]

Kiriki, you nailed it. Explained this perfectly.

Thank You
Bob Evans
CTO




> The bottom line is the value/price ratio. We should all be working to add
> value. By any means necessary.
>
> The pitfall of low priced "services", is that it's hard to balance the
> support level and lower price for services.
>
> If Bluehost and lower end web hosters can completely do away with the
> support aspect, certainly SAAS can scale. But if a significant part of
> your
> value proposition is support, it's real hard to get down this low if any
> human is ever involved, and if you pay a living wage to your workers. I
> really expect at the ultra low end you have to be willing to do away with
> live support, and just provide a product that workswith no support.
>
> Would people want to buy a web host for $3.95 but if they engage support
> pay
> $15/hour for it? Perhaps that would work... but I think the value
> proposition gets skewed in this sense. Those customers paying this little
> likely needs support in a variety of ways. The challenge is to do it all
> right, so they don't...
>
> I agree with Bob, more likely they are subsidizing costs with investment
> and
> hoping to provide a profitable model in the future with enough market
> share.
>
> Bottom line, is the industry needs to be increasing value, because the
> flip
> side working for no profit, surviving off investment only... there's
> no
> end-game. You see this cycle time and time again as market share is
> grabbed,
> then underperforming companies are rolled up. In this process value is
> destroyed.
>
> Ultimately this is also why it's extremely damaging for investors to
> constantly invest in companies that don't make a profit, and don't provide
> a
> successful economical model for the services/products provided. These
> companies largely live on investor money, lose money, and in their wake
> destroy value for the entire industry. Of course the end-game for the
> investors is to make money... I'm always surprised how strong
> investment/gambles are for non-profitable companies. I guess there is no
> end
> to those with too much money that have to place that money somewhere. As
> the
> rich get richer, there will only be more dumb money cheapening the value
> proposition. After all, who needs value when you have willing investors.
>
> Bottom line is that if it's not worth doing... then maybe it should not be
> done. Maybe the race to the bottom is not worth it. Maybe investments that
> lose value for an industry should be limited.
>
> The giant pool of money is now weaponized.
>
> -Kiriki
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Bob Evans
> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 5:20 PM
> To: Robert Webb
> Cc: NANOG
> Subject: Re: Bluehost.com
>
> For an ISP type service - it's almost impossible the make it up in volume
> - all you need is one phone call to cost you $10 in support on a $3.50
> service. With that many customers you can imagine how many call to just
> ask
> what happened or vent after the event is over.
>
> I founded a cable modem business prior to docsis standard. Call center
> with
> 150 people in it. People would call for help with their printer just
> because
> we answered the phone. So support for a $3.49 web service must make
> compromises somewhere in an attempt to reach profitability.
>
> I know of 3 very big ISPs - all barely making money for years. Providing
> crummy service , priced cheaply and expecting to make it up in volume.
> Their solution was to merge and lose money together. Still providing a
> lowball price for service , they then took the profitable parts of the
> business and sold those to others so they can re-org and improve cash
> momentarily. The re-org produced the same low prices and crummy service.
> So it's a cycle some people play just to win money from hedge funds,
> investors and finally the public. What do they call it when one keeps
> doing
> the same thing over and over again expecting a different result ?
>
> Low priced services are difficult to make profitable - if you drove your
> car
> the way most low priced business services operate you would have a car
> that
> top speeds at the minimal freeway speed, wouldnt carry a a spare tire,
> drive
> around until the empty light turns on and carry as little insurance as
> possible. - Gee, come to think of it, I've been in an airport shuttle van
> like that in new york.
>
> Thank You
> Bob Evans
> CTO
>
>
>
>
>> However, with thousands more users at that price point, you would
>> think the income would be plenty for better services.
>>
>> Who makes more, the store with smaller quantities at higher prices or
>> the store that sells more bulk at lower prices? Perception of value, I
>> believe, wins.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> On Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:00:37 -0800
>>   "Bob Evans"  wrote:
>>> Yes, I agree with you Joe - a hasty generalization,  as "you get what
>>>you  pay for" doesn't 

Re: Bluehost.com

[JoeSox]

Forgot to mention that their ETA was by end of today. :facepalm:

--
Later, Joe

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 11:21 AM, JoeSox  wrote:

> I just waited 160 minutes for a tech call and the Bluehost tech told me he
> was able to confirm that it wasn't malicious activity that took down the
> datacenter but rather it was caused by a "datacenter issue".
> So my first thought is someone didn't design the topology correctly or
> something.
> Some of our emails are coming thru but Google DNS still lost all of our
> DNS zones which are hosted by Bluehost.
> At least the #bluehostdown is fun to read :/
> --
> Later, Joe
>
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer 
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 08:41:55AM -0800,
>>  JoeSox  wrote
>>  a message of 9 lines which said:
>>
>> > Anyone have the scope on the outage for Bluehost?
>> > https://twitter.com/search?q=%23bluehostdown=tyah
>>
>> The two name servers ns1.bluehost.com and ns2.bluehost.com are awfully
>> slow to respond:
>>
>> % check-soa -i picturemotion.com
>> ns1.bluehost.com.
>> 74.220.195.31: OK: 2012092007 (1382 ms)
>> ns2.bluehost.com.
>> 69.89.16.4: OK: 2012092007 (1388 ms)
>>
>> As a result, most clients timeout.
>>
>> May be a DoS against the name servers?
>>
>> bluehost.com itself is DNS-hosted on a completely different
>> architecture. So it works fine. But the nginx Web site replies 502
>> Gateway timeout, probably overloaded by all the clients trying to get
>> informed.
>>
>> The Twitter accounts of Bluehost do not distribute any useful
>> information.
>>
>
>

Re: Bluehost.com

[Andrew Kirch]

remember folks, redundancy is the savior of all f***ups.

:)

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 2:21 PM, JoeSox  wrote:

> I just waited 160 minutes for a tech call and the Bluehost tech told me he
> was able to confirm that it wasn't malicious activity that took down the
> datacenter but rather it was caused by a "datacenter issue".
> So my first thought is someone didn't design the topology correctly or
> something.
> Some of our emails are coming thru but Google DNS still lost all of our DNS
> zones which are hosted by Bluehost.
> At least the #bluehostdown is fun to read :/
> --
> Later, Joe
>
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer 
> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 08:41:55AM -0800,
> >  JoeSox  wrote
> >  a message of 9 lines which said:
> >
> > > Anyone have the scope on the outage for Bluehost?
> > > https://twitter.com/search?q=%23bluehostdown=tyah
> >
> > The two name servers ns1.bluehost.com and ns2.bluehost.com are awfully
> > slow to respond:
> >
> > % check-soa -i picturemotion.com
> > ns1.bluehost.com.
> > 74.220.195.31: OK: 2012092007 (1382 ms)
> > ns2.bluehost.com.
> > 69.89.16.4: OK: 2012092007 (1388 ms)
> >
> > As a result, most clients timeout.
> >
> > May be a DoS against the name servers?
> >
> > bluehost.com itself is DNS-hosted on a completely different
> > architecture. So it works fine. But the nginx Web site replies 502
> > Gateway timeout, probably overloaded by all the clients trying to get
> > informed.
> >
> > The Twitter accounts of Bluehost do not distribute any useful
> > information.
> >
>

Re: Bluehost.com

[Grant Ridder]

Their site and my site work
US west coast

-Grant

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 9:28 AM, Brielle Bruns  wrote:

> On 11/25/15 9:41 AM, JoeSox wrote:
>
>> Anyone have the scope on the outage for Bluehost?
>> https://twitter.com/search?q=%23bluehostdown=tyah
>>
>> Cannot even move my DNS until its restored. :(
>> I suggest moving the status page to outside your network as well.
>> https://www.bluehost.com/hosting/serverstatus
>>
>>
> I am in the last stages of getting rid of BlueHost for one of my clients.
> Go figure this would happen _today_ at the exact same time I'm getting the
> last bit of data off so I can cancel the account.
>
>
> --
> Brielle Bruns
> The Summit Open Source Development Group
> http://www.sosdg.org/ http://www.ahbl.org
>

Re: Bluehost.com

[Bob Evans]

Gee, for $3.49 for a website hosting per month , it's a real bargain.
While the network person inside me says, Wow that's a long outage. The
other part of me is really wondering what one thinks they can really
expect from a company that hosts a website for just $3.49 ?  Such a
bargain at less than 1/2 the price of a single hot dog at a baseball
stadium per month. That price point alone tells you about the setup and
what you are agreeing too and who it's built for. Goes along with the ol'
saying, "you get what you pay for."

If they are down for 10 hours a month out of the average 720 hours in a
month - thats a tiny percentage 1-2 of the time it's unavailable - in
service terms of dollars it's roughly a nickel they credit each customer.
Do I need more coffee or is my math wrong about a nickel for 10 hours of
website hosing ?

However, maybe that is all many companies /sites really need. In which
case, it should be easy enough to build in backup yourself using two cheap
hosing providers and flip between them when the need arises. Or pick a
provider that manages their routing well and works with you quickly, but,
you'll have to pay more for that.

Yep, the math spells it out -  "you get what you pay for."

Thank You
Bob Evans
CTO




> remember folks, redundancy is the savior of all f***ups.
>
> :)
>
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 2:21 PM, JoeSox  wrote:
>
>> I just waited 160 minutes for a tech call and the Bluehost tech told me
>> he
>> was able to confirm that it wasn't malicious activity that took down the
>> datacenter but rather it was caused by a "datacenter issue".
>> So my first thought is someone didn't design the topology correctly or
>> something.
>> Some of our emails are coming thru but Google DNS still lost all of our
>> DNS
>> zones which are hosted by Bluehost.
>> At least the #bluehostdown is fun to read :/
>> --
>> Later, Joe
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer
>> 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 08:41:55AM -0800,
>> >  JoeSox  wrote
>> >  a message of 9 lines which said:
>> >
>> > > Anyone have the scope on the outage for Bluehost?
>> > > https://twitter.com/search?q=%23bluehostdown=tyah
>> >
>> > The two name servers ns1.bluehost.com and ns2.bluehost.com are awfully
>> > slow to respond:
>> >
>> > % check-soa -i picturemotion.com
>> > ns1.bluehost.com.
>> > 74.220.195.31: OK: 2012092007 (1382 ms)
>> > ns2.bluehost.com.
>> > 69.89.16.4: OK: 2012092007 (1388 ms)
>> >
>> > As a result, most clients timeout.
>> >
>> > May be a DoS against the name servers?
>> >
>> > bluehost.com itself is DNS-hosted on a completely different
>> > architecture. So it works fine. But the nginx Web site replies 502
>> > Gateway timeout, probably overloaded by all the clients trying to get
>> > informed.
>> >
>> > The Twitter accounts of Bluehost do not distribute any useful
>> > information.
>> >
>>
>

Third Party NOC services

[Daniel Corbe]

Can anyone recommend some good third parties for NOC services?

I don’t necessarily need something on the scope of companies like iNOC where 
they charge 20 bucks a device because I’ve got my own monitoring system.  What 
I need are bodies to watch my monitors and react to problems.  I also need a 
place to forward a toll free phone number for first level incident response.  

Re: Third Party NOC services

[Dovid Bender]

I am very happy with amoebanetworks.com


On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Daniel Corbe 
wrote:

> Can anyone recommend some good third parties for NOC services?
>
> I don’t necessarily need something on the scope of companies like iNOC
> where they charge 20 bucks a device because I’ve got my own monitoring
> system.  What I need are bodies to watch my monitors and react to
> problems.  I also need a place to forward a toll free phone number for
> first level incident response.
>
>
>

Re: Bluehost.com

[Stephane Bortzmeyer]

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 08:41:55AM -0800,
 JoeSox  wrote 
 a message of 9 lines which said:

> Anyone have the scope on the outage for Bluehost?
> https://twitter.com/search?q=%23bluehostdown=tyah

The two name servers ns1.bluehost.com and ns2.bluehost.com are awfully
slow to respond:

% check-soa -i picturemotion.com
ns1.bluehost.com.
74.220.195.31: OK: 2012092007 (1382 ms)
ns2.bluehost.com.
69.89.16.4: OK: 2012092007 (1388 ms)

As a result, most clients timeout.

May be a DoS against the name servers?

bluehost.com itself is DNS-hosted on a completely different
architecture. So it works fine. But the nginx Web site replies 502
Gateway timeout, probably overloaded by all the clients trying to get
informed.

The Twitter accounts of Bluehost do not distribute any useful
information.

Re: Bluehost.com

[JoeSox]

I just waited 160 minutes for a tech call and the Bluehost tech told me he
was able to confirm that it wasn't malicious activity that took down the
datacenter but rather it was caused by a "datacenter issue".
So my first thought is someone didn't design the topology correctly or
something.
Some of our emails are coming thru but Google DNS still lost all of our DNS
zones which are hosted by Bluehost.
At least the #bluehostdown is fun to read :/
--
Later, Joe

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer 
wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 08:41:55AM -0800,
>  JoeSox  wrote
>  a message of 9 lines which said:
>
> > Anyone have the scope on the outage for Bluehost?
> > https://twitter.com/search?q=%23bluehostdown=tyah
>
> The two name servers ns1.bluehost.com and ns2.bluehost.com are awfully
> slow to respond:
>
> % check-soa -i picturemotion.com
> ns1.bluehost.com.
> 74.220.195.31: OK: 2012092007 (1382 ms)
> ns2.bluehost.com.
> 69.89.16.4: OK: 2012092007 (1388 ms)
>
> As a result, most clients timeout.
>
> May be a DoS against the name servers?
>
> bluehost.com itself is DNS-hosted on a completely different
> architecture. So it works fine. But the nginx Web site replies 502
> Gateway timeout, probably overloaded by all the clients trying to get
> informed.
>
> The Twitter accounts of Bluehost do not distribute any useful
> information.
>

Re: DHCPv6 PD & Routing Questions

[Mark Andrews]

In message <20151126053449.ga22...@eik.bme.hu>, 
=?utf-8?B?SsOBS8OTIEFuZHLDoXM=?= writes:
> > Well the requesting router could announce the route.  ISC's client
> > has hooks that allow this to be done.  That is, after all, how
> > routing is designed to work.  The DHCP server usually is sitting
> > in a data center on the other side of the country with zero ability
> > to inject approptiate routes.
> > 
> > The DHCP relay could also have injected routes but that is a second
> > class solution.
> 
> A CPE announcing the route is fine as long as the ISP controls the CPE.
> 
> If the CPE is controled by the customer, then the ISP's problems are
> similar. They need to find a way to filter the CPE's announcement so
> that it can announce only the prefixes delegated to it.
> 
> András

Which is why I mentioned the DHCP relay.

Somewhere back towards the beginnings of this thread there was a
reference to a blog post that complained that they couldn't workout
how to send a git pull request to us.  I've forwarded that to our
dhcp team.  For future reference dhcp-b...@isc.org or dhcp-sugg...@isc.org
would have been fine places to send the request.  So to the bug
reporting form on isc.org which lets you select if it is bug,
suggestion or a security issue.  There also the general contact
form which would get to the dhcp team after being forwarded a couple
of times.

Mark
-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: ma...@isc.org

Oh Hai! Telstra/reach.... HOWDY!

[Christopher Morrow]

THIS IS A WARNING MESSAGE ONLY.

YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESEND YOUR MESSAGE.

Delivery to the following recipient has been delayed:

 dbad...@net.reach.com

Message will be retried for 1 more day(s)

COULD YOU MAKE YOUR EMAIL WORK!
(for f's sake.. srsly, this is your POC for your IRR and it's broken... )

Re: DHCPv6 PD & Routing Questions

[Baldur Norddahl]

On 25 November 2015 at 06:23, Mark Andrews  wrote:

> > You might think that would be obvious, but exactly zero (0) commercial
> > available CPEs has implemented it like that.
> >
> > THAT means that if you expect the community to do it like this, you do in
> > fact need to write it in a RFC.
>
> Or you could write it as you think it is needed.
>
>
The homenet working group just published a RFC with a different solution.
The size hint is garbage today because every client will put garbage in it
and most servers will ignore it (including isc-dhcp IIRC). And likely it
will stay that way forever. The homenet solution is different, but it
reduces the need for a size hint.

Regards,

Baldur

Re: Binge On! - And So This is Net Neutrality?

[Jean-Francois Mezei]

On 2015-11-23 17:12, Owen DeLong wrote:
> Except there’s no revenue share here. According to T-Mobile, the streaming 
> partners
> aren’t paying anything to T-Mo and T-Mo isn’t paying them.

In Canada, Vidéotron has begun a similar scheme for streaming music. It
is currently at the CRTC. They also claimed that the setting up of the
scheme with a music streaming partner involved no money exchange.

They provided a contract. This contract was 1 page. yes, large incumbent
wireless/cable carrier with large legal departments signs a 1 page
contract This page dealth with which IP addresses from the music
streaming service would be zero rated by the carrier.

Yet, their advertising uses logos from the handful of music services
they have accepted.  Permission to use such logos was not included in
that 1 page contract which means that there would be a separate
contract, not related to zero rating which would deal with co-marketing
and whatever else.

Re: Binge On! - And So This is Net Neutrality?

[Jean-Francois Mezei]

On 2015-11-23 17:26, Owen DeLong wrote:

> Sure, but I really don’t think there’s an exchange per se in this case, given 
> that T-Mo
> is (at least apparently) willing to accommodate any streaming provider that 
> wants to
> participate so long as they are willing to conform to a fairly basic set of 
> technical criteria.


Vidéotron also stated on day of annoucement that they were opened to
any/all music streaming services and not selective. But fine print is
important here because they do "vet" music streaming services and the
carrier wants to ensure they are "legal" in canada (music rights), are
not a radio station (aka: onwer by competitor telco who owns most radio
statiosn in markets where Vidéotron operates) and a whole buch other
conditions.

There is PR to make "zero rating" look good, and then there is fine
print thats hows the true intentions.

In the case of Vidéotron, the zero-rated music is available only on
their highest priced services and is a marketing scheme to increase
AREPU by inciting customers to upgrade to more expensive service.

SevOne Monitoring

[Paul Stewart]

Hey folks.

 

Looking for feedback from actual customers on SevOne for network monitoring
. anyone using them and willing to share thoughts online/offline?

 

They have an appealing system for network monitoring and considering it as a
replacement to Solarwinds. 

 

Cheers,

Paul

 

 

Re: Oh Hai! Telstra/reach.... HOWDY!

[Matt Taylor]

Hi Christopher,

A better place to reach out to Telstra employees is AusNOG (with a 
nicely written email, might I add).


I've BCC'd a fairly active (awesome) Telstra staff member from AusNOG 
into this response, so it's up to him if he wishes to respond directly 
to you; or even escalate the issue internally.


Thanks,
Matt.

On 26/11/2015 15:35, Christopher Morrow wrote:

THIS IS A WARNING MESSAGE ONLY.

YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESEND YOUR MESSAGE.

Delivery to the following recipient has been delayed:

  dbad...@net.reach.com

Message will be retried for 1 more day(s)

COULD YOU MAKE YOUR EMAIL WORK!
(for f's sake.. srsly, this is your POC for your IRR and it's broken... )