Re: Recent NTP pool traffic increase

[Damian Menscher via NANOG]

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 6:41 PM, Keenan Tims  wrote:

> In a similar vein, I've always been curious what the ratio Google sees of
> ICMP echo vs. DNS traffic to 8.8.8.8 is...
>

The more fun question is how many pagers would go off around the world if
Google stopped responding to ICMP echo.

Damian

Re: Recent NTP pool traffic increase

[Harlan Stenn]

On 12/20/16 9:21 PM, Royce Williams wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 8:19 PM, Royce Williams  
> wrote:
>> On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 8:04 PM, Yury Shefer  wrote:
>>>
>>> Google announced public NTP service some time ago:
>>> https://developers.google.com/time/
>>
>> Leap smearing does look interesting as way to sidestep the
>> potentially-jarring leap-second problem ... but a note of caution.
>>
>> I've had multiple time geeks tell me that leap-smearing is pretty
>> different from strict-RFC NTP, and Google themselves say on that page:
>>
>> "We recommend that you don’t configure Google Public NTP together with
>> non-leap-smearing NTP servers."
>>
>> So it looks like we shouldn't mix and match. And since most folks
>> should probably want some heterogeneity in their NTP, it may be a
>> little premature to jump on the leap-smear bandwagon just yet.
>>
>> I'm vague on the details, so I could be wrong.
> 
> This is informative:
> 
> https://docs.ntpsec.org/latest/leapsmear.html
> 
>> Does anyone know of any other (non Google) leap-smearing NTP implementations?

The NTP Project has had a leap-smear implementation for a while.

We also have a proposal for a REFID that indicates the provided time is
a leap-smear time, and Network Time Foundation is working on a new
timestamp format and API that will easily allow time exchange between
systems using different timescales.

-- 
Harlan Stenn 
http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member!

Re: Recent NTP pool traffic increase

[Royce Williams]

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 8:19 PM, Royce Williams  wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 8:04 PM, Yury Shefer  wrote:
>>
>> Google announced public NTP service some time ago:
>> https://developers.google.com/time/
>
> Leap smearing does look interesting as way to sidestep the
> potentially-jarring leap-second problem ... but a note of caution.
>
> I've had multiple time geeks tell me that leap-smearing is pretty
> different from strict-RFC NTP, and Google themselves say on that page:
>
> "We recommend that you don’t configure Google Public NTP together with
> non-leap-smearing NTP servers."
>
> So it looks like we shouldn't mix and match. And since most folks
> should probably want some heterogeneity in their NTP, it may be a
> little premature to jump on the leap-smear bandwagon just yet.
>
> I'm vague on the details, so I could be wrong.

This is informative:

https://docs.ntpsec.org/latest/leapsmear.html

> Does anyone know of any other (non Google) leap-smearing NTP implementations?

Royce

Re: Recent NTP pool traffic increase

[Royce Williams]

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 8:04 PM, Yury Shefer  wrote:
>
> Google announced public NTP service some time ago:
> https://developers.google.com/time/

Leap smearing does look interesting as way to sidestep the
potentially-jarring leap-second problem ... but a note of caution.

I've had multiple time geeks tell me that leap-smearing is pretty
different from strict-RFC NTP, and Google themselves say on that page:

"We recommend that you don’t configure Google Public NTP together with
non-leap-smearing NTP servers."

So it looks like we shouldn't mix and match. And since most folks
should probably want some heterogeneity in their NTP, it may be a
little premature to jump on the leap-smear bandwagon just yet.

I'm vague on the details, so I could be wrong.

Does anyone know of any other (non Google) leap-smearing NTP implementations?

Royce

Re: Recent NTP pool traffic increase

[Yury Shefer]

Google announced public NTP service some time ago:
https://developers.google.com/time/


On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 7:29 PM Laurent Dumont 
wrote:

> I do think that the point of the Pool network is to be used by both
>
> consumers and vendors. And as mentioned before, there is a process if
>
> you are a vendor and want to use the pool within a commercial product. I
>
> have 3 NTP servers running and I don't really care who is using it.
>
>
>
> That said, setting up your own infrastructure is also worth considering
>
> if it's a business critical feature. I assume that a Snapchat app that
>
> fails to have accurate time or correct itself could be abused.
>
>
>
> To be honest, the fact that NTP is still something managed by volunteers
>
> and not a regulated entity (a bit like DNS) is mind boggling.
>
>
>
> On 12/20/2016 09:41 PM, Keenan Tims wrote:
>
> > Better for whom? I'm sure all mobile operating systems provide some
>
> > access to time, with a least 'seconds' resolution. If an app deems
>
> > this time source untrustworthy for some reason, I don't think the
>
> > reasonable response is to make independent time requests from a
>
> > volunteer-operated pool for public servers designed for host
>
> > synchronization. Particularly on mobile, the compartmentalization of
>
> > applications means that this 'better' time will only be accessible to
>
> > one application, and many applications may have this 'better time'
>
> > requirement. These developers should be lobbying Apple and Google for
>
> > better time, if they need it, not making many millions of calls to the
>
> > NTP pool. To make things worse, I'm fairly sure that Apple's 'no
>
> > background tasks' policy means that an application can't *maintain*
>
> > its sense of time, so it would not surprise me if it fires off NTP
>
> > requests every time it is focused, further compounding the burden.
>
> >
>
> > Time is already available, and having every application query for its
>
> > own time against a public resource doesn't seem very friendly. It
>
> > certainly doesn't scale. If they are unsuccessful lobbying the OS, why
>
> > not trust the time provided by the API calls they are surely doing to
>
> > their own servers? Most HTTP responses include a timestamp; surely
>
> > this is good enough for expiring Snaps. Or at least operate their own
>
> > NTP infrastructure.
>
> >
>
> > I'm sure that Snap had no malicious intent and commend them for their
>
> > quick and appropriate response once the issue was identified, but I
>
> > don't think this behaviour is very defensible. I for one was not
>
> > harmed by the ~10x increase in load and traffic on my NTP pool node,
>
> > but the 100x increase if a handful of similar apps decided they 'need'
>
> > more accurate time than the OS provides would be cause for concern,
>
> > and I suspect a great many pool nodes would simply disappear,
>
> > compounding the problem. Please make use of these and similar services
>
> > as they are designed to be used, and as efficiently as possible,
>
> > especially if you are responsible for millions of users / machines.
>
> >
>
> > In a similar vein, I've always been curious what the ratio Google sees
>
> > of ICMP echo vs. DNS traffic to 8.8.8.8 is...
>
> >
>
> > Keenan
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > On 2016-12-20 18:16, Tim Raphael wrote:
>
> >> Exactly,
>
> >>
>
> >> Also they’re across Android and iOS and getting parity of operations
>
> >> across those two OSs isn’t easy.
>
> >> Better to just embed what they need inside the app if it is
>
> >> specialised enough.
>
> >>
>
> >> - Tim
>
> >>
>
> >>> On 21 Dec. 2016, at 10:13 am, Emille Blanc
>
> >>>  wrote:
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Perhaps the host OS' to which snapchat caters, don't all have a
>
> >>> devent ntp subststem available?
>
> >>> I have vague recollections of some other software (I'm sure we all
>
> >>> know which) implemented it's own malloc layer for every system it
>
> >>> ran on, for less trivial reasons. ;)
>
> >>>
>
> >>> 
>
> >>> From: NANOG [nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Tim Raphael
>
> >>> [raphael.timo...@gmail.com]
>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2016 5:34 PM
>
> >>> To: Gary E. Miller
>
> >>> Cc: nanog@nanog.org
>
> >>> Subject: Re: Recent NTP pool traffic increase
>
> >>>
>
> >>> This was my thought actually, Apple does offer some time services as
>
> >>> part of the OS but it’s becoming common with larger / more popular
>
> >>> apps to provide some of these services internally.
>
> >>> Look at the FB app for example, there are a lot of “system” things
>
> >>> they do themselves due to the ability to control specifics. Users
>
> >>> don’t want to have to install a second “specialised app” for this
>
> >>> either.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> With regard to an ephemeral chat app requiring time sync, I can
>
> >>> think of quite a few use cases and mechanisms in the app that might
>
> >>> require time services.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> 

Re: Recent NTP pool traffic increase

[Harlan Stenn]

On 12/20/16 7:27 PM, Laurent Dumont wrote:
> I do think that the point of the Pool network is to be used by both
> consumers and vendors. And as mentioned before, there is a process if
> you are a vendor and want to use the pool within a commercial product. I
> have 3 NTP servers running and I don't really care who is using it.
> 
> That said, setting up your own infrastructure is also worth considering
> if it's a business critical feature. I assume that a Snapchat app that
> fails to have accurate time or correct itself could be abused.
> 
> To be honest, the fact that NTP is still something managed by volunteers
> and not a regulated entity (a bit like DNS) is mind boggling.

Time *is* managed by regulated entities - the National Time Labs.

And Network Time Foundation's NTP Project (the reference implementation
for NTP) could do lots more if we had a useful budget.

Folks pay money for DNS registrations.  There's no revenue stream around
"time".

Help us get enough support to NTF, and we'll have the staff and
infrastructure to do more for folks.
-- 
Harlan Stenn 
http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member!

Re: Recent NTP pool traffic increase

[Valdis . Kletnieks]

On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 18:41:37 -0800, Keenan Tims said:
> Better for whom? I'm sure all mobile operating systems provide some
> access to time, with a least 'seconds' resolution. If an app deems this
> time source untrustworthy for some reason, I don't think the reasonable
> response is to make independent time requests from a volunteer-operated
> pool for public servers designed for host synchronization.

This is possibly at least partly due to "dependency hell".
For a worked example from earlier this year:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/23/npm_left_pad_chaos/

So a lot of people had their stuff blow up, even though their code
called left_pad exactly noplace



pgpQ6G_Js6GBs.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Recent NTP pool traffic increase

[Laurent Dumont]

I do think that the point of the Pool network is to be used by both 
consumers and vendors. And as mentioned before, there is a process if 
you are a vendor and want to use the pool within a commercial product. I 
have 3 NTP servers running and I don't really care who is using it.


That said, setting up your own infrastructure is also worth considering 
if it's a business critical feature. I assume that a Snapchat app that 
fails to have accurate time or correct itself could be abused.


To be honest, the fact that NTP is still something managed by volunteers 
and not a regulated entity (a bit like DNS) is mind boggling.


On 12/20/2016 09:41 PM, Keenan Tims wrote:
Better for whom? I'm sure all mobile operating systems provide some 
access to time, with a least 'seconds' resolution. If an app deems 
this time source untrustworthy for some reason, I don't think the 
reasonable response is to make independent time requests from a 
volunteer-operated pool for public servers designed for host 
synchronization. Particularly on mobile, the compartmentalization of 
applications means that this 'better' time will only be accessible to 
one application, and many applications may have this 'better time' 
requirement. These developers should be lobbying Apple and Google for 
better time, if they need it, not making many millions of calls to the 
NTP pool. To make things worse, I'm fairly sure that Apple's 'no 
background tasks' policy means that an application can't *maintain* 
its sense of time, so it would not surprise me if it fires off NTP 
requests every time it is focused, further compounding the burden.


Time is already available, and having every application query for its 
own time against a public resource doesn't seem very friendly. It 
certainly doesn't scale. If they are unsuccessful lobbying the OS, why 
not trust the time provided by the API calls they are surely doing to 
their own servers? Most HTTP responses include a timestamp; surely 
this is good enough for expiring Snaps. Or at least operate their own 
NTP infrastructure.


I'm sure that Snap had no malicious intent and commend them for their 
quick and appropriate response once the issue was identified, but I 
don't think this behaviour is very defensible. I for one was not 
harmed by the ~10x increase in load and traffic on my NTP pool node, 
but the 100x increase if a handful of similar apps decided they 'need' 
more accurate time than the OS provides would be cause for concern, 
and I suspect a great many pool nodes would simply disappear, 
compounding the problem. Please make use of these and similar services 
as they are designed to be used, and as efficiently as possible, 
especially if you are responsible for millions of users / machines.


In a similar vein, I've always been curious what the ratio Google sees 
of ICMP echo vs. DNS traffic to 8.8.8.8 is...


Keenan


On 2016-12-20 18:16, Tim Raphael wrote:

Exactly,

Also they’re across Android and iOS and getting parity of operations 
across those two OSs isn’t easy.
Better to just embed what they need inside the app if it is 
specialised enough.


- Tim

On 21 Dec. 2016, at 10:13 am, Emille Blanc 
 wrote:


Perhaps the host OS' to which snapchat caters, don't all have a 
devent ntp subststem available?
I have vague recollections of some other software (I'm sure we all 
know which) implemented it's own malloc layer for every system it 
ran on, for less trivial reasons. ;)



From: NANOG [nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Tim Raphael 
[raphael.timo...@gmail.com]

Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2016 5:34 PM
To: Gary E. Miller
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Recent NTP pool traffic increase

This was my thought actually, Apple does offer some time services as 
part of the OS but it’s becoming common with larger / more popular 
apps to provide some of these services internally.
Look at the FB app for example, there are a lot of “system” things 
they do themselves due to the ability to control specifics. Users 
don’t want to have to install a second “specialised app” for this 
either.


With regard to an ephemeral chat app requiring time sync, I can 
think of quite a few use cases and mechanisms in the app that might 
require time services.


- Tim



On 21 Dec. 2016, at 9:26 am, Gary E. Miller  wrote:

Yo valdis.kletni...@vt.edu!

On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 20:20:48 -0500
valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:


On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 18:11:11 -0500, Peter Beckman said:

Mostly out of curiosity, what was the reason for the change in the
Snapchat code, and what plans does Snap have for whatever reason
the NTP change was put in place?

 From other comments in the thread, it sounds like the app was simply
linked against a broken version of a library

But why is a chat app doing NTP at all?  it should rely on the OS, or
a specialized app, to keep local time accurate.

RGDS
GARY

Re: Recent NTP pool traffic increase

[Keenan Tims]

Better for whom? I'm sure all mobile operating systems provide some 
access to time, with a least 'seconds' resolution. If an app deems this 
time source untrustworthy for some reason, I don't think the reasonable 
response is to make independent time requests from a volunteer-operated 
pool for public servers designed for host synchronization. Particularly 
on mobile, the compartmentalization of applications means that this 
'better' time will only be accessible to one application, and many 
applications may have this 'better time' requirement. These developers 
should be lobbying Apple and Google for better time, if they need it, 
not making many millions of calls to the NTP pool. To make things worse, 
I'm fairly sure that Apple's 'no background tasks' policy means that an 
application can't *maintain* its sense of time, so it would not surprise 
me if it fires off NTP requests every time it is focused, further 
compounding the burden.


Time is already available, and having every application query for its 
own time against a public resource doesn't seem very friendly. It 
certainly doesn't scale. If they are unsuccessful lobbying the OS, why 
not trust the time provided by the API calls they are surely doing to 
their own servers? Most HTTP responses include a timestamp; surely this 
is good enough for expiring Snaps. Or at least operate their own NTP 
infrastructure.


I'm sure that Snap had no malicious intent and commend them for their 
quick and appropriate response once the issue was identified, but I 
don't think this behaviour is very defensible. I for one was not harmed 
by the ~10x increase in load and traffic on my NTP pool node, but the 
100x increase if a handful of similar apps decided they 'need' more 
accurate time than the OS provides would be cause for concern, and I 
suspect a great many pool nodes would simply disappear, compounding the 
problem. Please make use of these and similar services as they are 
designed to be used, and as efficiently as possible, especially if you 
are responsible for millions of users / machines.


In a similar vein, I've always been curious what the ratio Google sees 
of ICMP echo vs. DNS traffic to 8.8.8.8 is...


Keenan


On 2016-12-20 18:16, Tim Raphael wrote:

Exactly,

Also they’re across Android and iOS and getting parity of operations across 
those two OSs isn’t easy.
Better to just embed what they need inside the app if it is specialised enough.

- Tim


On 21 Dec. 2016, at 10:13 am, Emille Blanc  wrote:

Perhaps the host OS' to which snapchat caters, don't all have a devent ntp 
subststem available?
I have vague recollections of some other software (I'm sure we all know which) 
implemented it's own malloc layer for every system it ran on, for less trivial 
reasons. ;)


From: NANOG [nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Tim Raphael 
[raphael.timo...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2016 5:34 PM
To: Gary E. Miller
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Recent NTP pool traffic increase

This was my thought actually, Apple does offer some time services as part of 
the OS but it’s becoming common with larger / more popular apps to provide some 
of these services internally.
Look at the FB app for example, there are a lot of “system” things they do 
themselves due to the ability to control specifics. Users don’t want to have to 
install a second “specialised app” for this either.

With regard to an ephemeral chat app requiring time sync, I can think of quite 
a few use cases and mechanisms in the app that might require time services.

- Tim



On 21 Dec. 2016, at 9:26 am, Gary E. Miller  wrote:

Yo valdis.kletni...@vt.edu!

On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 20:20:48 -0500
valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:


On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 18:11:11 -0500, Peter Beckman said:

Mostly out of curiosity, what was the reason for the change in the
Snapchat code, and what plans does Snap have for whatever reason
the NTP change was put in place?

 From other comments in the thread, it sounds like the app was simply
linked against a broken version of a library

But why is a chat app doing NTP at all?  it should rely on the OS, or
a specialized app, to keep local time accurate.

RGDS
GARY
---
Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
  g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588

Re: Recent NTP pool traffic increase

[Jad Boutros via NANOG]

The Snapchat mobile app does not currently have a need to talk with NTP
servers, it was an error. Also, this afternoon we spun off NTP server
instances in Australia and South America to help with the load.

Thanks,
Jad

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Tim Raphael 
wrote:

> This was my thought actually, Apple does offer some time services as part
> of the OS but it’s becoming common with larger / more popular apps to
> provide some of these services internally.
> Look at the FB app for example, there are a lot of “system” things they do
> themselves due to the ability to control specifics. Users don’t want to
> have to install a second “specialised app” for this either.
>
> With regard to an ephemeral chat app requiring time sync, I can think of
> quite a few use cases and mechanisms in the app that might require time
> services.
>
> - Tim
>
>
> > On 21 Dec. 2016, at 9:26 am, Gary E. Miller  wrote:
> >
> > Yo valdis.kletni...@vt.edu!
> >
> > On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 20:20:48 -0500
> > valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 18:11:11 -0500, Peter Beckman said:
> >>> Mostly out of curiosity, what was the reason for the change in the
> >>> Snapchat code, and what plans does Snap have for whatever reason
> >>> the NTP change was put in place?
> >>
> >> From other comments in the thread, it sounds like the app was simply
> >> linked against a broken version of a library
> >
> > But why is a chat app doing NTP at all?  it should rely on the OS, or
> > a specialized app, to keep local time accurate.
> >
> > RGDS
> > GARY
> > 
> ---
> > Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
> >   g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588
>
>

Re: Recent NTP pool traffic increase

[Tim Raphael]

Exactly,

Also they’re across Android and iOS and getting parity of operations across 
those two OSs isn’t easy. 
Better to just embed what they need inside the app if it is specialised enough.

- Tim

> On 21 Dec. 2016, at 10:13 am, Emille Blanc  
> wrote:
> 
> Perhaps the host OS' to which snapchat caters, don't all have a devent ntp 
> subststem available?
> I have vague recollections of some other software (I'm sure we all know 
> which) implemented it's own malloc layer for every system it ran on, for less 
> trivial reasons. ;)
> 
> 
> From: NANOG [nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Tim Raphael 
> [raphael.timo...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2016 5:34 PM
> To: Gary E. Miller
> Cc: nanog@nanog.org
> Subject: Re: Recent NTP pool traffic increase
> 
> This was my thought actually, Apple does offer some time services as part of 
> the OS but it’s becoming common with larger / more popular apps to provide 
> some of these services internally.
> Look at the FB app for example, there are a lot of “system” things they do 
> themselves due to the ability to control specifics. Users don’t want to have 
> to install a second “specialised app” for this either.
> 
> With regard to an ephemeral chat app requiring time sync, I can think of 
> quite a few use cases and mechanisms in the app that might require time 
> services.
> 
> - Tim
> 
> 
>> On 21 Dec. 2016, at 9:26 am, Gary E. Miller  wrote:
>> 
>> Yo valdis.kletni...@vt.edu!
>> 
>> On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 20:20:48 -0500
>> valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:
>> 
>>> On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 18:11:11 -0500, Peter Beckman said:
 Mostly out of curiosity, what was the reason for the change in the
 Snapchat code, and what plans does Snap have for whatever reason
 the NTP change was put in place?
>>> 
>>> From other comments in the thread, it sounds like the app was simply
>>> linked against a broken version of a library
>> 
>> But why is a chat app doing NTP at all?  it should rely on the OS, or
>> a specialized app, to keep local time accurate.
>> 
>> RGDS
>> GARY
>> ---
>> Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
>>  g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588

RE: Recent NTP pool traffic increase

[Emille Blanc]

Perhaps the host OS' to which snapchat caters, don't all have a devent ntp 
subststem available?
I have vague recollections of some other software (I'm sure we all know which) 
implemented it's own malloc layer for every system it ran on, for less trivial 
reasons. ;)


From: NANOG [nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Tim Raphael 
[raphael.timo...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2016 5:34 PM
To: Gary E. Miller
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Recent NTP pool traffic increase

This was my thought actually, Apple does offer some time services as part of 
the OS but it’s becoming common with larger / more popular apps to provide some 
of these services internally.
Look at the FB app for example, there are a lot of “system” things they do 
themselves due to the ability to control specifics. Users don’t want to have to 
install a second “specialised app” for this either.

With regard to an ephemeral chat app requiring time sync, I can think of quite 
a few use cases and mechanisms in the app that might require time services.

- Tim


> On 21 Dec. 2016, at 9:26 am, Gary E. Miller  wrote:
>
> Yo valdis.kletni...@vt.edu!
>
> On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 20:20:48 -0500
> valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 18:11:11 -0500, Peter Beckman said:
>>> Mostly out of curiosity, what was the reason for the change in the
>>> Snapchat code, and what plans does Snap have for whatever reason
>>> the NTP change was put in place?
>>
>> From other comments in the thread, it sounds like the app was simply
>> linked against a broken version of a library
>
> But why is a chat app doing NTP at all?  it should rely on the OS, or
> a specialized app, to keep local time accurate.
>
> RGDS
> GARY
> ---
> Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
>   g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588

Re: Recent NTP pool traffic increase

[Tim Raphael]

This was my thought actually, Apple does offer some time services as part of 
the OS but it’s becoming common with larger / more popular apps to provide some 
of these services internally.
Look at the FB app for example, there are a lot of “system” things they do 
themselves due to the ability to control specifics. Users don’t want to have to 
install a second “specialised app” for this either.

With regard to an ephemeral chat app requiring time sync, I can think of quite 
a few use cases and mechanisms in the app that might require time services.

- Tim


> On 21 Dec. 2016, at 9:26 am, Gary E. Miller  wrote:
> 
> Yo valdis.kletni...@vt.edu!
> 
> On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 20:20:48 -0500
> valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 18:11:11 -0500, Peter Beckman said:
>>> Mostly out of curiosity, what was the reason for the change in the
>>> Snapchat code, and what plans does Snap have for whatever reason
>>> the NTP change was put in place?  
>> 
>> From other comments in the thread, it sounds like the app was simply
>> linked against a broken version of a library
> 
> But why is a chat app doing NTP at all?  it should rely on the OS, or
> a specialized app, to keep local time accurate.
> 
> RGDS
> GARY
> ---
> Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
>   g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588

Re: [NANOG-announce] 2016 NANOG Election Results

[Dave Temkin]

Hi NANOG Community,

Following up from our election in October, the NANOG Board listened to
feedback from our members and discussed the potential implications of
releasing vote counts.

The Board has decided that while we will not publish the individual vote
counts from this past election, we will publish the results going forward.
Given the ambiguity as to whether or not we are obligated to publish these
counts, we felt it best to be conservative as to not alienate those that
ran under the impression that counts would not be released.

As part of the discussion, the board as well decided to change the makeup
of the Election Committee. In past elections, it was made up of two
non-conflicted board members and the Executive Director. Going forward, two
board members will be joined by 3 NANOG members, to be selected by the
seated board.

Best Regards,

-Dave Temkin
Chair, NANOG Board of Directors



On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Dave Temkin  wrote:

> Greetings NANOG Colleagues,
>
> The 2016 NANOG Board and Bylaw election process is now complete.
>
> The results were shared during NANOG 68, are posted on the NANOG website,
> and summarized here.
>
> In 2016, there were two regular open positions on the Board of Directors.
> The appointments are:
>
>-
>
>Will Charnock - 3 years
>-
>
>Patrick Gilmore - 3 years
>
>
> The officers elected and committee liaisons are:
>
>-
>
>Chair - Dave Temkin
>-
>
>Vice Chair - Ryan Donnelly
>-
>
>Treasurer - Will Charnock
>-
>
>Secretary - Betty Burke
>-
>
>Communications Committee Liaison - Jezzibell Gilmore
>-
>
>Program Committee Liaison - Patrick Gilmore
>
>
> The proposed amendments to the NANOG Bylaws were accepted. The updated
> Bylaws document will be posted to the NANOG website.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> -Dave Temkin
>
> Chair, NANOG Board of Directors
>
>
___
NANOG-announce mailing list
nanog-annou...@mailman.nanog.org
http://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog-announce

Re: Recent NTP pool traffic increase

[Gary E. Miller]

Yo valdis.kletni...@vt.edu!

On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 20:20:48 -0500
valdis.kletni...@vt.edu wrote:

> On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 18:11:11 -0500, Peter Beckman said:
> > Mostly out of curiosity, what was the reason for the change in the
> > Snapchat code, and what plans does Snap have for whatever reason
> > the NTP change was put in place?  
> 
> From other comments in the thread, it sounds like the app was simply
> linked against a broken version of a library

But why is a chat app doing NTP at all?  it should rely on the OS, or
a specialized app, to keep local time accurate.

RGDS
GARY
---
Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588


pgpzwM706_yaZ.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Recent NTP pool traffic increase

[Valdis . Kletnieks]

On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 18:11:11 -0500, Peter Beckman said:
> Mostly out of curiosity, what was the reason for the change in the Snapchat
> code, and what plans does Snap have for whatever reason the NTP change was
> put in place?

>From other comments in the thread, it sounds like the app was simply linked
against a broken version of a library


pgpseE9KQnGCG.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Recent NTP pool traffic increase

[Peter Beckman]

Mostly out of curiosity, what was the reason for the change in the Snapchat
code, and what plans does Snap have for whatever reason the NTP change was
put in place?

Beckman

On Tue, 20 Dec 2016, Jad Boutros via NANOG wrote:


Immediately after being notified that our latest iOS release was causing
problems with NTP traffic, we started working to disable the offending code
in v9.45. We submitted a new mobile release to the Apple App Store earlier
this morning for their review, which should disable these NTP requests. We
are hoping Apple will be able to review this release in time before the
holiday break, and we have stressed its urgency. When the release does get
approved, we should very quickly begin to see a decrease in NTP traffic
from our app as users start upgrading to the new release.

We deeply regret this situation, and we will post an update here once we
hear back from Apple. We are also open to any suggestions on how we can
help with the present traffic.

On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 9:27 PM, Jad Boutros  wrote:


We - at Snap - were forwarded this thread just a few hours ago and are
investigating. Please email me should you still be looking for a contact
for Snapchat.

Thank you,
Jad

On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 9:18 PM, Laurent Dumont 
wrote:


If anything comes from this, I'd love to hear about it. As a student in
the field, this is the kind of stuff I live for! ;)

Pretty awesome to see the chain of events after seeing a post on the
[pool] list!

Laurent

On 12/19/2016 05:12 PM, Justin Paine via NANOG wrote:


replying off list.


Justin Paine
Head of Trust & Safety
Cloudflare Inc.
PGP: BBAA 6BCE 3305 7FD6 6452 7115 57B6 0114 DE0B 314D


On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 1:49 PM, Dan Drown  wrote:


Quoting David :


On 2016-12-19 1:55 PM, Jan Tore Morken wrote:


On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 01:32:50PM -0700, David wrote:


I found devices doing lookups for all of these at the same time

{0,0.uk,0.us,asia,europe,north-america,south-america,oceania
,africa}.pool.ntp.org
and then it proceeds to use everything returned, which explains why
everyone is seeing an increase.



Thanks, David. That perfectly matches the list of servers used by
older versions of the ios-ntp library[1][2], which would point toward
some iPhone app being the source of the traffic.

[1]
https://github.com/jbenet/ios-ntp/blob/d5eade6a99041094f12f0
c976dd4aaeed37e0564/ios-ntp-rez/ntp.hosts
[2]
https://github.com/jbenet/ios-ntp/blob/5cc3b6e437a6422dcee9d
ec9da5183e283eff9f2/ios-ntp-lib/NetworkClock.m#L122

That would make sense - I see a lot of iCloud related lookups from

these
hosts as well.

Also, app.snapchat.com generally seems to follow just after the NTP
pool
DNS lookups. I don't have an iPhone to test that though.



Confirmed - starting up the iOS Snapchat app does a lookup to the
domains
you listed, and then sends NTP to every unique IP.  Around 35-60
different
IPs.

Anyone have a contact at Snapchat?











---
Peter Beckman  Internet Guy
beck...@angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/
---

Re: Recent NTP pool traffic increase

[Jad Boutros via NANOG]

Thank you Eduardo,

You beat me to it. Apple was quick to approve our release with the fix, we
should start seeing a decrease in such traffic.

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 2:29 PM, Eduardo Schoedler 
wrote:

> 2016-12-20 16:58 GMT-02:00 Jad Boutros via NANOG :
> > Immediately after being notified that our latest iOS release was causing
> > problems with NTP traffic, we started working to disable the offending
> code
> > in v9.45. We submitted a new mobile release to the Apple App Store
> earlier
> > this morning for their review, which should disable these NTP requests.
> We
> > are hoping Apple will be able to review this release in time before the
> > holiday break, and we have stressed its urgency. When the release does
> get
> > approved, we should very quickly begin to see a decrease in NTP traffic
> > from our app as users start upgrading to the new release.
>
> Just received update to 9.45.2.0.
>
> --
> Eduardo Schoedler
>

Re: NTT Taipei 3 data center address?

[Job Snijders]

On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 02:15:31PM +, Rivera, Alberto wrote:
> I am searching for NTT Taipei 3 data center address. Do you have it by
> any chance?

I'll ping you off-list.

Kind regards,

Job

Re: Recent NTP pool traffic increase

[Jad Boutros via NANOG]

Immediately after being notified that our latest iOS release was causing
problems with NTP traffic, we started working to disable the offending code
in v9.45. We submitted a new mobile release to the Apple App Store earlier
this morning for their review, which should disable these NTP requests. We
are hoping Apple will be able to review this release in time before the
holiday break, and we have stressed its urgency. When the release does get
approved, we should very quickly begin to see a decrease in NTP traffic
from our app as users start upgrading to the new release.

We deeply regret this situation, and we will post an update here once we
hear back from Apple. We are also open to any suggestions on how we can
help with the present traffic.

On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 9:27 PM, Jad Boutros  wrote:

> We - at Snap - were forwarded this thread just a few hours ago and are
> investigating. Please email me should you still be looking for a contact
> for Snapchat.
>
> Thank you,
> Jad
>
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 9:18 PM, Laurent Dumont 
> wrote:
>
>> If anything comes from this, I'd love to hear about it. As a student in
>> the field, this is the kind of stuff I live for! ;)
>>
>> Pretty awesome to see the chain of events after seeing a post on the
>> [pool] list!
>>
>> Laurent
>>
>> On 12/19/2016 05:12 PM, Justin Paine via NANOG wrote:
>>
>>> replying off list.
>>>
>>> 
>>> Justin Paine
>>> Head of Trust & Safety
>>> Cloudflare Inc.
>>> PGP: BBAA 6BCE 3305 7FD6 6452 7115 57B6 0114 DE0B 314D
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 1:49 PM, Dan Drown  wrote:
>>>
 Quoting David :

> On 2016-12-19 1:55 PM, Jan Tore Morken wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 01:32:50PM -0700, David wrote:
>>
>>> I found devices doing lookups for all of these at the same time
>>>
>>> {0,0.uk,0.us,asia,europe,north-america,south-america,oceania
>>> ,africa}.pool.ntp.org
>>> and then it proceeds to use everything returned, which explains why
>>> everyone is seeing an increase.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks, David. That perfectly matches the list of servers used by
>> older versions of the ios-ntp library[1][2], which would point toward
>> some iPhone app being the source of the traffic.
>>
>> [1]
>> https://github.com/jbenet/ios-ntp/blob/d5eade6a99041094f12f0
>> c976dd4aaeed37e0564/ios-ntp-rez/ntp.hosts
>> [2]
>> https://github.com/jbenet/ios-ntp/blob/5cc3b6e437a6422dcee9d
>> ec9da5183e283eff9f2/ios-ntp-lib/NetworkClock.m#L122
>>
>> That would make sense - I see a lot of iCloud related lookups from
> these
> hosts as well.
>
> Also, app.snapchat.com generally seems to follow just after the NTP
> pool
> DNS lookups. I don't have an iPhone to test that though.
>

 Confirmed - starting up the iOS Snapchat app does a lookup to the
 domains
 you listed, and then sends NTP to every unique IP.  Around 35-60
 different
 IPs.

 Anyone have a contact at Snapchat?

>>>
>>
>

Re: South Carolina attempts to repeal Rule 34

[John Levine]

In article  
you write:
>Let's call it for what it is. It's a new tax.

No, it's just grandstanding.  The proposed law egregiously violates
the First Amendment and wouldn't last 5 minutes in a court challenge.

R's,
John

NTT Taipei 3 data center address?

[Rivera, Alberto]

I am searching for NTT Taipei 3 data center address. Do you have it by any
chance?

 

Thank you!

 

Alberto Rivera

PreSales Engineer

PCCW Global

450 Spring Park Place

Suite 100

Herndon, VA 20170

Tel: +1(703)774-9459 Office | + (571)315-5309 Cell

Email: ariv...@pccwglobal.com

Website: www.pccwglobal.com

To view PCCW Global's communication videos
 click here


  cid:9f4812ce-f4a5-4441-a4e4-1d77c1ee1ad7

 

  cid:21f87991-196a-41be-a978-deb2e5059c9b

 

 
cid:1d9fa650-71e3-4e53-a84f-f92859afadfa

 

 
cid:e396fb8d-688f-4d85-befe-85c9f88f81c9

 

  cid:0e7d23dc-f767-4fec-b036-a8410443413f

 

compliance with Canadian copyright law

[Wido Potters]

Hi,

I am involved in the free and open source toolkit AbuseIO (https://abus
e.io/). It is a toolkit anyone can use to receive, process, correlate
abuse reports and send notifications with specific information
regarding the abuse case(s) on your network. AbuseIO's purpose is to
consolidate efforts by various companies and individuals to automate
and improve the abuse handling process.

Last months we have been receiving requests for information about the
implementation of AbuseIO in Canadian networks, in order to be
compliant with Canadian Copyright Law. It seems our toolkit might be of
use for these Canadian networks, but it needs some tweaking to really
comply. I am looking for Canadian network operators / abuse desks /
compliance officers that might be interested in using AbuseIO and would
like to give some input or join efforts in making the software
compliant for Canadian law. Please contact me off-list or discuss on-
list.


Kind regards,

Wido

Re: Recent NTP pool traffic increase

[Paul Gear]

On 20/12/16 15:18, Laurent Dumont wrote:
> If anything comes from this, I'd love to hear about it. As a student in
> the field, this is the kind of stuff I live for! ;)
> 
> Pretty awesome to see the chain of events after seeing a post on the
> [pool] list!


https://news.ntppool.org/2016/12/load/

https://community.ntppool.org/t/recent-ntp-pool-traffic-increase/18

Re: Recent NTP pool traffic increase

[Jad Boutros via NANOG]

We - at Snap - were forwarded this thread just a few hours ago and are
investigating. Please email me should you still be looking for a contact
for Snapchat.

Thank you,
Jad

On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 9:18 PM, Laurent Dumont 
wrote:

> If anything comes from this, I'd love to hear about it. As a student in
> the field, this is the kind of stuff I live for! ;)
>
> Pretty awesome to see the chain of events after seeing a post on the
> [pool] list!
>
> Laurent
>
> On 12/19/2016 05:12 PM, Justin Paine via NANOG wrote:
>
>> replying off list.
>>
>> 
>> Justin Paine
>> Head of Trust & Safety
>> Cloudflare Inc.
>> PGP: BBAA 6BCE 3305 7FD6 6452 7115 57B6 0114 DE0B 314D
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 1:49 PM, Dan Drown  wrote:
>>
>>> Quoting David :
>>>
 On 2016-12-19 1:55 PM, Jan Tore Morken wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 01:32:50PM -0700, David wrote:
>
>> I found devices doing lookups for all of these at the same time
>>
>> {0,0.uk,0.us,asia,europe,north-america,south-america,oceania,africa}.
>> pool.ntp.org
>> and then it proceeds to use everything returned, which explains why
>> everyone is seeing an increase.
>>
>
> Thanks, David. That perfectly matches the list of servers used by
> older versions of the ios-ntp library[1][2], which would point toward
> some iPhone app being the source of the traffic.
>
> [1]
> https://github.com/jbenet/ios-ntp/blob/d5eade6a99041094f12f0
> c976dd4aaeed37e0564/ios-ntp-rez/ntp.hosts
> [2]
> https://github.com/jbenet/ios-ntp/blob/5cc3b6e437a6422dcee9d
> ec9da5183e283eff9f2/ios-ntp-lib/NetworkClock.m#L122
>
> That would make sense - I see a lot of iCloud related lookups from
 these
 hosts as well.

 Also, app.snapchat.com generally seems to follow just after the NTP
 pool
 DNS lookups. I don't have an iPhone to test that though.

>>>
>>> Confirmed - starting up the iOS Snapchat app does a lookup to the domains
>>> you listed, and then sends NTP to every unique IP.  Around 35-60
>>> different
>>> IPs.
>>>
>>> Anyone have a contact at Snapchat?
>>>
>>
>

Re: Google Global Cache Contact

[Jason Rokeach]

Thanks everyone, all set. The form was down earlier today but folks have
pointed out an email address for me.

On Mon, Dec 19, 2016, 4:15 PM Jason Rokeach  wrote:

> Hi folks, could a contact for GGC contact me off-list?
>
> Thank you!
> - Jason R. Rokeach
>

Re: Wanted: volunteers with bandwidth/storage to help save climate data

[Royce Williams]

n Sat, Dec 17, 2016 at 6:15 PM, Doug Barton  wrote:
> On 12/16/2016 1:48 PM, Hugo Slabbert wrote:
>>
>> This started as a technical appeal, but:
>>
>> https://www.nanog.org/list
>>
>> 1. Discussion will focus on Internet operational and technical issues as
>> described in the charter of NANOG.
>
> Hard to see how the OP has anything to do with either of the above.

Actually, it's not that hard ... *if* we can control ourselves from
making them partisan, and focus instead on the operational aspects.
(Admittedly, that's pretty hard!)

The OP's query was a logical combination of two concepts:

- First, from the charter (emphasis mine): "NANOG provides a forum
where people from the network research community, the network operator
community and the network vendor community can come together *to
identify and solve the problems that arise in operating and growing
the Internet*."

- Second, from John Gilmore: "The Net interprets censorship as damage
and routes around it."

The OP appears to be managing risk associated with a (perhaps low)
chance of future censorship. Was the OP asking a straight question
about BGP or SFPs or CDNs? Of course not. But should doctors only talk
about surgical technique -- and not about, say, the need for a living
will? Of course not.

IMO, *operational, politics-free* discussion of items like these would
also be on topic for NANOG:

- Some *operational* workarounds for country-wide blocking of
Facebook, Whatsapp, and Twitter [1], or Signal [2]

- The *operational* challenges of replicating the Internet Archive to Canada [3]

Each operator has to make such risk calculations for themselves. Some
may see the "NA" in NANOG as insurance that such censorship could
never happen here. Others -- especially those who came from other
countries -- may feel differently.

Put another way:

Everyone has a line at which "I don't care what's in the pipes, I just
work here" changes into something more actionable. Being
*operationally* ready for that day seems like a good idea to me.

Royce

1. 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/12/20/turkey-blocks-access-facebook-twitter-whatsapp-following-ambassadors/
2. 
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2016/12/20/world/middleeast/ap-ml-egypt-app-blocked.html
3. 
https://blog.archive.org/2016/11/29/help-us-keep-the-archive-free-accessible-and-private/

Re: Recent NTP pool traffic increase

[Royce Williams]

On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 12:49 PM, Dan Drown  wrote:
> Quoting David :
>>
>> On 2016-12-19 1:55 PM, Jan Tore Morken wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 01:32:50PM -0700, David wrote:

 I found devices doing lookups for all of these at the same time

 {0,0.uk,0.us,asia,europe,north-america,south-america,oceania,africa}.pool.ntp.org
 and then it proceeds to use everything returned, which explains why
 everyone is seeing an increase.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks, David. That perfectly matches the list of servers used by
>>> older versions of the ios-ntp library[1][2], which would point toward
>>> some iPhone app being the source of the traffic.
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> https://github.com/jbenet/ios-ntp/blob/d5eade6a99041094f12f0c976dd4aaeed37e0564/ios-ntp-rez/ntp.hosts
>>> [2]
>>> https://github.com/jbenet/ios-ntp/blob/5cc3b6e437a6422dcee9dec9da5183e283eff9f2/ios-ntp-lib/NetworkClock.m#L122
>>>
>>
>> That would make sense - I see a lot of iCloud related lookups from these
>> hosts as well.
>>
>> Also, app.snapchat.com generally seems to follow just after the NTP pool
>> DNS lookups. I don't have an iPhone to test that though.
>
>
> Confirmed - starting up the iOS Snapchat app does a lookup to the domains
> you listed, and then sends NTP to every unique IP.  Around 35-60 different
> IPs.
>
> Anyone have a contact at Snapchat?

Looks like folks got in touch with them. Thanks!

https://community.ntppool.org/t/recent-ntp-pool-traffic-increase/18

Royce

Re: South Carolina attempts to repeal Rule 34

[Stephen Satchell]

On 12/19/2016 11:39 PM, Jay Hennigan wrote:
> Break out the popcorn.
> 
> http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article121673402.html
> 

"A bill pre-filed this month by state Rep. Bill Chumley would require
sellers to install digital blocking capabilities on computers and other
devices that access the internet to prevent the viewing of obscene content."

1.  Buy computer without the $20 tax
2.  Erase operating system
3.  Install Linux Mint (or one's favourite distribution)
4.  PROFIT!

"The bill would fine manufacturers that sell a device without the
blocking system..."

How about if the manufacturer doesn't install an operating system?

Getting this vaguely back to NANOG territory, this is a far greater
improvement over the "plan" to have ISPs block the traffic on their side
of the customer/ISP interface.  THAT is just an invitation to pick up a
mallet and play whack-a-mole...

(N.B.: if this were extended to other states, like Nevada, then stores
like Suzie's in Reno would only increase their business selling porn DVDs.)

Re: Recent NTP pool traffic increase

[Roland Dobbins]

On 20 Dec 2016, at 12:18, Laurent Dumont wrote:

> As a student in the field, this is the kind of stuff I live for! ;)




---
Roland Dobbins 

Re: South Carolina attempts to repeal Rule 34

[Dovid Bender]

Let's call it for what it is. It's a new tax. The manufactures/stores etc.
wont want to he held liable and they will simply include the cost when
selling a PC (does anyone other than us buy one of those these days?)


On Tue, Dec 20, 2016 at 5:26 AM, Tei  wrote:

> Users are crafty.
>
> One user on a network I had to admin use to mail porn has Microsoft
> Word documents to his Gmail account.
>
> So if you want to stop porn, you have to ban file attachments and
> monospace fonts.
>
> Good luck with that.
>
> On 20 December 2016 at 09:25, Jippen  wrote:
> > So, $20 tax on all computers sold in SC in practice
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 19, 2016, 11:41 PM Jay Hennigan  wrote:
> >
> >> Break out the popcorn.
> >>
> >> http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article121673402.html
> >>
> >> --
> >> --
> >> Jay Hennigan - CCIE #7880 - Network Engineering - j...@impulse.net
> >> Impulse Internet Service  -  http://www.impulse.net/
> >> Your local telephone and internet company - 805 884-6323 - WB6RDV
> >>
>
>
>
> --
> --
> ℱin del ℳensaje.
>

Re: South Carolina attempts to repeal Rule 34

[Tei]

Users are crafty.

One user on a network I had to admin use to mail porn has Microsoft
Word documents to his Gmail account.

So if you want to stop porn, you have to ban file attachments and
monospace fonts.

Good luck with that.

On 20 December 2016 at 09:25, Jippen  wrote:
> So, $20 tax on all computers sold in SC in practice
>
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2016, 11:41 PM Jay Hennigan  wrote:
>
>> Break out the popcorn.
>>
>> http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article121673402.html
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Jay Hennigan - CCIE #7880 - Network Engineering - j...@impulse.net
>> Impulse Internet Service  -  http://www.impulse.net/
>> Your local telephone and internet company - 805 884-6323 - WB6RDV
>>



-- 
--
ℱin del ℳensaje.

Re: South Carolina attempts to repeal Rule 34

[Jippen]

So, $20 tax on all computers sold in SC in practice

On Mon, Dec 19, 2016, 11:41 PM Jay Hennigan  wrote:

> Break out the popcorn.
>
> http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article121673402.html
>
> --
> --
> Jay Hennigan - CCIE #7880 - Network Engineering - j...@impulse.net
> Impulse Internet Service  -  http://www.impulse.net/
> Your local telephone and internet company - 805 884-6323 - WB6RDV
>