Re: Benefits (and Detriments) of Standardizing Network Equipment in a Global Organization

[Nolan Berry]

System automation and life cycle management is exponentially easier when you 
have uniform environments.  I am in the process of standardizing global 
infrastructure and developing the automation process now.

Nolan


From: NANOG  on behalf of valdis.kletni...@vt.edu 

Sent: Monday, December 26, 2016 7:55 PM
To: Chris Grundemann
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: Benefits (and Detriments) of Standardizing Network Equipment in a 
Global Organization

On Fri, 23 Dec 2016 15:36:10 -0500, Chris Grundemann said:

> A global hospitality organization with 100+ locations recently asked us how
> to weigh the importance of standardizing infrastructure across all their
> locations versus allowing each international location to select on their
> own kit.

The first question that comes to mind is:

Does the organization have any centralized IT, or is *that* done by
each location?  The procurement directives need to be coming from the
group that actually does day-to-day support of each location, or the
resulting culture clash will cause issues

RE: DWDM on 250 Km dark fiber without re-amplification

[Robert Jacobs]

Polarization and dispersion will come into play at these distances if you plan 
on running a DWDM system.  In that world you get what you pay for as a rule.  
The more expensive gear is more forgiving to fiber that is not 100 % up to high 
quality.  Most small one or two RU gear from all the vendors mentioned have 100 
gig cards that will be 100 gig on the DWDM side and break it out to 10 sfp Plus 
ten gig ports for the client side.  Another thing to look for in this is link 
down propergation ... you will want the client facing links on both sides of 
the optical span to go down if the span goes down.  Good luck with your quest 

-Original Message-
From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Eric Kuhnke
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2016 1:18 PM
To: Jeremy ; nanog@nanog.org list 
Subject: Re: DWDM on 250 Km dark fiber without re-amplification

You will want to request an OTDR characterization of the dark fiber path from 
its owner. If you can post OTDR "shots" with full resolution images in a 
lossless image format to the list, we may be able to take a guess if the 
distance is feasible without amplification inline.

For equipment choices you're looking at the usual vendors for DWDM long haul 
ROADM chassis such as Ciena, Adva, Huawei, ZTE, Infinera, etc.

If you simply want to do point to point DWDM mux:demux on the 250km fiber, your 
choices will be different than if you want the ability to insert a chassis at 
an intermediate location and drop or insert wavelengths.

It may be possible, at a lower cost than buying 100GbE capable DWDM chassis 
type systems, to do a single router-to-router linecard link with coherent 
100GbE signal with FEC on the 250km path. Again this will totally depend on the 
OTDR results and link budget available.


On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 4:14 PM, Jeremy  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> First, i'm sorry for my english, i'm french and i don't have a good 
> level in this language. But i want some informations and i'm sure, 
> someone will be give the good anwser about my question.
>
> So, i'm regarding to rent a dual dark fiber in France, the estimated 
> distance is 225 Km, but i know there are a lot of optical switching on 
> the highway where it's fiber is installed (in theory, all 80 Km). So, 
> i used the bad scenario, in adding 25 Km on my need.
>
> I would like to buy a amplificator and multiplexer DWDM to add some 
> 10Gb/s waves on this dark fiber. I've see that the amplification is 
> better on 100 Gb/s synchronised ports, but we don't have enoug 
> capacity on our router to add 100 Gb/s interfaces.
>
> So, someone has installed this type of hardware on a dark fiber 
> without regeneration  on 250 Km of distance ?
> If yes, with what kind of hardware ? If you are commercial for this 
> hardware, please contact me in private message.
>
> Thanks you for your time,
> Jérémy
> AS197922
>
>

Re: Benefits (and Detriments) of Standardizing Network Equipment in a Global Organization

[Leo Bicknell]

In a message written on Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 03:36:10PM -0500, Chris Grundemann 
wrote:
> If you have a case study, lesson learned, data point, or even just a strong
> opinion; I'd love to hear it!

I think the high level items are pretty clear here:

1 Vendor

Quicker/easier to implement, staff only needs to learn/configure one
platform, vendor can help end to end, usually fewer interop issues.
Spend may get extra discounts or support bennies.

However one bug can wipe out everything, no ability to compare real
world performance with a competitor, vendor may think they "own" you
come renewal or more sales.  Hard to threaten to leave.

2 Vendor

Can be implemented multiple ways, for instance 1 vendor per site
alternating sites, or gear deployed in pairs with one from each vendor
up and down the stack.

Harder to implement, staff needs to know both, all configs must be
done for both, vendors will always blame the other vendor for interop
issues.  Twice as much chance of needing to do emergency upgrades.

More resilliance to a single bug, can compare real world performance
of the two vendors.  Both vendors will compete hard to get more of your
business, but have a harder time justifing bennies internally due to 
lower spend.

3 or more Vendors

Generally the same as two-vendors, just ++.  That is more of the
pros, and more of the cons.  Limited additional upside to having 3
or more active vendors.  Generally occurs as a vendor falls out of
favor, two new ones get deployed moving forward, the old one sticks
around for a while.


Having worked places that were single vendor, 2 vendor, and "whatever we
can buy" shops I'll say it basically doesn't matter.  What matters is
how you set up the org.  Want to be lean on staff, go single vendor.
Want maximum resilliance and/or negotiating power, go 2 vendor.  Inherit
a mess, learn to live in a 3+ vendor world.  It's not that one is better
than the other, it's just they require different approaches to get the
same outcome.

-- 
Leo Bicknell - bickn...@ufp.org
PGP keys at http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/


pgpRMgoGi_7sL.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: DWDM on 250 Km dark fiber without re-amplification

[Eric Kuhnke]

You will want to request an OTDR characterization of the dark fiber path
from its owner. If you can post OTDR "shots" with full resolution images in
a lossless image format to the list, we may be able to take a guess if the
distance is feasible without amplification inline.

For equipment choices you're looking at the usual vendors for DWDM long
haul ROADM chassis such as Ciena, Adva, Huawei, ZTE, Infinera, etc.

If you simply want to do point to point DWDM mux:demux on the 250km fiber,
your choices will be different than if you want the ability to insert a
chassis at an intermediate location and drop or insert wavelengths.

It may be possible, at a lower cost than buying 100GbE capable DWDM chassis
type systems, to do a single router-to-router linecard link with coherent
100GbE signal with FEC on the 250km path. Again this will totally depend on
the OTDR results and link budget available.


On Fri, Dec 23, 2016 at 4:14 PM, Jeremy  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> First, i'm sorry for my english, i'm french and i don't have a good level
> in this language. But i want some informations and i'm sure, someone will
> be give the good anwser about my question.
>
> So, i'm regarding to rent a dual dark fiber in France, the estimated
> distance is 225 Km, but i know there are a lot of optical switching on the
> highway where it's fiber is installed (in theory, all 80 Km). So, i used
> the bad scenario, in adding 25 Km on my need.
>
> I would like to buy a amplificator and multiplexer DWDM to add some 10Gb/s
> waves on this dark fiber. I've see that the amplification is better on 100
> Gb/s synchronised ports, but we don't have enoug capacity on our router to
> add 100 Gb/s interfaces.
>
> So, someone has installed this type of hardware on a dark fiber without
> regeneration  on 250 Km of distance ?
> If yes, with what kind of hardware ? If you are commercial for this
> hardware, please contact me in private message.
>
> Thanks you for your time,
> Jérémy
> AS197922
>
>

Re: DWDM on 250 Km dark fiber without re-amplification

[Josh Galvez]

Jeremy,

SmartOptics is one such vendor that I've used in the past that may be able
to do this.

http://www.smartoptics.com/

-Josh

On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 10:41 AM, Brian R  wrote:

> I have to agree with Brandon.  I have not worked with Ciena equipment
> directly but have work with carriers that use it.  I worked with Adtran on
> this kind of setup and like Brandon said they require a lot of information
> to build what is needed for each specific run (fiber type, quality, wave
> length optimization, number of splices, etc).  I've seen the tools Adtran
> uses to calculate exactly what equipment is required and it is pretty
> complex for distances even close to what you are talking about.
>
> Definitely check for a re-gen site(s), most likely the carrier has to
> re-gen their own runs down this fiber path (another thing to consider in
> the calculation matrix especially if you are not trying to re-gen your run).
>
>
> I have to give Baldur kudos for finding that I'm still amazed that
> Fiberstore is claiming that's possible without a lot of information.  I
> have worked with Fiberstore and they are a cooperative vendor and their
> products work for what we have used them for.
>
>
> My suggestion is to reach out to Fiberstore, Ciena, Adtran, and other
> vendors that people recommend with a detailed email of what you would like
> to accomplish and the information you can get.  Ask for a design engineer
> (I know Adtran has them and assume others do) to get the info you need and
> see what they can mock up for you.
>
>
> Brian
>
>
> 
> From: NANOG  on behalf of Brandon Martin <
> lists.na...@monmotha.net>
> Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2016 12:41 AM
> To: nanog@nanog.org
> Subject: Re: DWDM on 250 Km dark fiber without re-amplification
>
> On 12/23/2016 07:14 PM, Jeremy wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > First, i'm sorry for my english, i'm french and i don't have a good
> > level in this language. But i want some informations and i'm sure,
> > someone will be give the good anwser about my question.
> >
> > So, i'm regarding to rent a dual dark fiber in France, the estimated
> > distance is 225 Km, but i know there are a lot of optical switching on
> > the highway where it's fiber is installed (in theory, all 80 Km). So, i
> > used the bad scenario, in adding 25 Km on my need.
> >
> > I would like to buy a amplificator and multiplexer DWDM to add some
> > 10Gb/s waves on this dark fiber. I've see that the amplification is
> > better on 100 Gb/s synchronised ports, but we don't have enoug capacity
> > on our router to add 100 Gb/s interfaces.
> >
> > So, someone has installed this type of hardware on a dark fiber without
> > regeneration  on 250 Km of distance ?
> > If yes, with what kind of hardware ? If you are commercial for this
> > hardware, please contact me in private message.
>
>
> Look up Raman amplification.  The short of what this does is it pumps a
> ton of power into the near end of the fiber span and creates what looks
> somewhat like a typical color-blind amplifier somewhere several dozen km
> out on the span.  You'll also need to dump a ton of power into the span
> at the far end using an EDFA or similar.  Even with both of those, that
> distance is still going to push the raw optical power budget of even
> most state-of-the-art transceivers especially if the fiber is old or of
> low quality (high loss, high dispersion, etc.).
>
> The longest span I've ever gotten a vendor to commit to an engineered
> design for was about 140km, and of course they needed full
> characterization of the span before they'd do it.  At those distances,
> distance alone is no longer sufficient to throw together a design.
>
> It seems highly likely that there's at least one re-gen facility along
> that span.  I'd definitely see if there is one and if you can get some
> space in it.  That will knock you down into the 100-130km range on both
> sides of the re-gen, hopefully, which is perfectly doable.
>
> You are somewhat correct that 100Gb interfaces often handle longer
> distances better, but it's because they are often using coherent
> receivers and carrier-synchronous transmitters rather than raw power
> receivers and ASK pulsed transmitters.  There are vendors that sell
> coherent 10Gb transceivers, too, and they'll be cheaper than 100Gb
> solutions especially if you don't need the extra capacity anyway.  I'd
> definitely check them out for this type of application especially if you
> can't get any dispersion compensation in the middle since coherent
> optics are usually much more tolerant of chromatic dispersion.
>
> The big vendor I've worked with in the past on this sort of stuff is
> Ciena (and they're certainly a juggernaut in the industry) though I have
> no connection to them other than as a satisfied (if occasionally broke
> after a PO or out of breath after seeing a quotation) customer/integrator.
>
> --
> Brandon Martin
>

Re: DWDM on 250 Km dark fiber without re-amplification

[Brian R]

I have to agree with Brandon.  I have not worked with Ciena equipment directly 
but have work with carriers that use it.  I worked with Adtran on this kind of 
setup and like Brandon said they require a lot of information to build what is 
needed for each specific run (fiber type, quality, wave length optimization, 
number of splices, etc).  I've seen the tools Adtran uses to calculate exactly 
what equipment is required and it is pretty complex for distances even close to 
what you are talking about.

Definitely check for a re-gen site(s), most likely the carrier has to re-gen 
their own runs down this fiber path (another thing to consider in the 
calculation matrix especially if you are not trying to re-gen your run).


I have to give Baldur kudos for finding that I'm still amazed that Fiberstore 
is claiming that's possible without a lot of information.  I have worked with 
Fiberstore and they are a cooperative vendor and their products work for what 
we have used them for.


My suggestion is to reach out to Fiberstore, Ciena, Adtran, and other vendors 
that people recommend with a detailed email of what you would like to 
accomplish and the information you can get.  Ask for a design engineer (I know 
Adtran has them and assume others do) to get the info you need and see what 
they can mock up for you.


Brian



From: NANOG  on behalf of Brandon Martin 

Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2016 12:41 AM
To: nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: DWDM on 250 Km dark fiber without re-amplification

On 12/23/2016 07:14 PM, Jeremy wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> First, i'm sorry for my english, i'm french and i don't have a good
> level in this language. But i want some informations and i'm sure,
> someone will be give the good anwser about my question.
>
> So, i'm regarding to rent a dual dark fiber in France, the estimated
> distance is 225 Km, but i know there are a lot of optical switching on
> the highway where it's fiber is installed (in theory, all 80 Km). So, i
> used the bad scenario, in adding 25 Km on my need.
>
> I would like to buy a amplificator and multiplexer DWDM to add some
> 10Gb/s waves on this dark fiber. I've see that the amplification is
> better on 100 Gb/s synchronised ports, but we don't have enoug capacity
> on our router to add 100 Gb/s interfaces.
>
> So, someone has installed this type of hardware on a dark fiber without
> regeneration  on 250 Km of distance ?
> If yes, with what kind of hardware ? If you are commercial for this
> hardware, please contact me in private message.


Look up Raman amplification.  The short of what this does is it pumps a
ton of power into the near end of the fiber span and creates what looks
somewhat like a typical color-blind amplifier somewhere several dozen km
out on the span.  You'll also need to dump a ton of power into the span
at the far end using an EDFA or similar.  Even with both of those, that
distance is still going to push the raw optical power budget of even
most state-of-the-art transceivers especially if the fiber is old or of
low quality (high loss, high dispersion, etc.).

The longest span I've ever gotten a vendor to commit to an engineered
design for was about 140km, and of course they needed full
characterization of the span before they'd do it.  At those distances,
distance alone is no longer sufficient to throw together a design.

It seems highly likely that there's at least one re-gen facility along
that span.  I'd definitely see if there is one and if you can get some
space in it.  That will knock you down into the 100-130km range on both
sides of the re-gen, hopefully, which is perfectly doable.

You are somewhat correct that 100Gb interfaces often handle longer
distances better, but it's because they are often using coherent
receivers and carrier-synchronous transmitters rather than raw power
receivers and ASK pulsed transmitters.  There are vendors that sell
coherent 10Gb transceivers, too, and they'll be cheaper than 100Gb
solutions especially if you don't need the extra capacity anyway.  I'd
definitely check them out for this type of application especially if you
can't get any dispersion compensation in the middle since coherent
optics are usually much more tolerant of chromatic dispersion.

The big vendor I've worked with in the past on this sort of stuff is
Ciena (and they're certainly a juggernaut in the industry) though I have
no connection to them other than as a satisfied (if occasionally broke
after a PO or out of breath after seeing a quotation) customer/integrator.

--
Brandon Martin