Re: 99% of HK internet traffic goes thru uni being fought over?

2019-11-20 Thread Tom Paseka via NANOG
In terms of bits, MOST Hong Kong traffic does NOT traverse HKIX.

However, Hong Kong ISPs, almost entirely communicate with each other of
HKIX.

Sources like Akamai and Google, however, do not typically traverse HKIX.
These are the majority of traffic.

99% of Hong Kong is connected to HKIX, by traverses? No.

On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 1:42 PM  wrote:

>
> Thanks everyone for the replies. My conclusion is that no one here
> knows whether HKIX handles 99% of internet traffic for HK or not.
>
> It's a number.
>
> --
> -Barry Shein
>
> Software Tool & Die| b...@theworld.com |
> http://www.TheWorld.com
> Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD   | 800-THE-WRLD
> The World: Since 1989  | A Public Information Utility | *oo*
>


Re: 99% of HK internet traffic goes thru uni being fought over?

2019-11-20 Thread Majdi S. Abbas
On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 04:41:13PM -0500, b...@theworld.com wrote:
> Thanks everyone for the replies. My conclusion is that no one here
> knows whether HKIX handles 99% of internet traffic for HK or not.

Barry,

While it's absolutely a number we don't have, it's also worth
asking what we are trying to measure.

99% of HK traffic by volume...

Or 99% of HK traffic by "doesn't touch the mainland, or 
increasingly corruptible US companies that also engage in censorship."

--msa


Re: 99% of HK internet traffic goes thru uni being fought over?

2019-11-20 Thread Bill Woodcock


> On Nov 20, 2019, at 1:41 PM, b...@theworld.com wrote:
> Thanks everyone for the replies. My conclusion is that no one here
> knows whether HKIX handles 99% of internet traffic for HK or not.

That’s incorrect.  I’m here, and I know that:

1) HKIX does not handle anywhere near 99% of Hong Kong’s Internet traffic.

2) Much of HKIX is in TKO anyway, rather than up at the CUHK campus.

3) CUHK isn’t the university where the protests are anyway, that’s Hong Kong 
Polytechnic.

4) CUHK is way up in the New Territories. HK Polytechnic is in Tsim Sha Tsui.  
TKO is way off in the east. These are all about as far apart as it’s possible 
to get in Hong Kong.

-Bill



signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP


Re: 99% of HK internet traffic goes thru uni being fought over?

2019-11-20 Thread John Sage

On 11/20/19 1:41 PM, b...@theworld.com wrote:


Thanks everyone for the replies. My conclusion is that no one here
knows whether HKIX handles 99% of internet traffic for HK or not.

It's a number.



mmm...

Since you clearly did *not* read any of the previous replies or chose to 
ignore them, the odds of your just trolling the list is beginning to 
approach ... wait for it ... 99%


But for sake of argument, any article that's headlined "Here's The Real 
Reason Why..." should be ignored completely. See: Tyler Durden and 
Zerohedge as one.


Anyone who's eager to tell you the "Real Reason(tm)" for anything is 
trolling for clicks.


Then, as to Internet traffic, the probability that 99% of *all* Internet 
traffic to one global political entity (Hong Kong) goes through one 
single physical location that just happens to be a university currently 
experiencing student protests is ... yeah...


I take it you know nothing about Internetworking?

Or, again, Zerohedge?


/fin


- John
--



Re: 99% of HK internet traffic goes thru uni being fought over?

2019-11-20 Thread Jared Mauch



> On Nov 20, 2019, at 4:41 PM, b...@theworld.com wrote:
> 
> Thanks everyone for the replies. My conclusion is that no one here
> knows whether HKIX handles 99% of internet traffic for HK or not.

No more than any other site.  Most IXPs may have a significant amount of 
traffic but it’s certainly not all of the traffic in a market.

Generally I’ve seen that private interconnects in major cities (like HK) are 
more than the public (IXP) interconnects.  Anyone claiming 99% of a market 
unless they’re the monopoly incumbent last-mile provider i treat with a 
properly sized piece of salt.

- Jared

Re: 99% of HK internet traffic goes thru uni being fought over?

2019-11-20 Thread bzs


Thanks everyone for the replies. My conclusion is that no one here
knows whether HKIX handles 99% of internet traffic for HK or not.

It's a number.

-- 
-Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die| b...@theworld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD   | 800-THE-WRLD
The World: Since 1989  | A Public Information Utility | *oo*


Re: Hulu thinks all my IP addresses are "business class", how to reach them?

2019-11-20 Thread Ethan O'Toole

This is why you don't go after Hulu. You go after the content owners who
conspired to compel Hulu to limit distribution in a way that tortiously
interferes with your contract with your eyeball customers. Then, before


Which in many cases is groups like the Screen Actors Guild and the music 
industry. As I understand it much of the music in TV shows require 
licensing and sometimes different license holders exist for a song 
depending on country.


While the television industry self-inflicts pain to it's userbase 
it's easier for the users to just pirate the content.



- Ethan



Re: Hulu thinks all my IP addresses are "business class", how to reach them?

2019-11-20 Thread William Herrin
On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 12:32 PM Owen DeLong  wrote:
> The problem here is that identifying class members is very hard (most
class members wouldn’t realize why they were not getting Hulu, and Hulu
probably either quickly corrects the problem on their end or blames the
ISP), meaning they wouldn’t realize their ability to join the class.
>
> As an individual customer, Hulu will refund your money and tell you to
piss off. That’s about all you’re likely to recover in the court case, too.
>
> As an ISP, there might be something there, but, you’d have to prove that
you had a significant number of customers that left for that specific
reason and you’d have to show the actual damages that resulted. Easy to
estimate, very hard to prove.

This is why you don't go after Hulu. You go after the content owners who
conspired to compel Hulu to limit distribution in a way that tortiously
interferes with your contract with your eyeball customers. Then, before
you've spent much money (filing lawsuits and notifying the defendants only
costs in the hundreds of dollars), you suggest to their respective counsels
that they didn't actually intend to exclude your customers and that if Hulu
weren't so reckless in their implementation you'd be inclined to drop the
matter.


-- 
William Herrin
b...@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/


Re: Hulu thinks all my IP addresses are "business class", how to reach them?

2019-11-20 Thread Brandon Martin

On 11/20/19 3:31 PM, Owen DeLong wrote:
As an ISP, there might be something there, but, you’d have to prove that 
you had a significant number of customers that left for that specific 
reason and you’d have to show the actual damages that resulted. Easy to 
estimate, very hard to prove.


Not only hard to prove, but the armchair lawyer in my has an inkling 
that you'd have to show that they did it intentionally or went beyond 
being dumb or knowledgeable about it and were somehow negligent.  The 
former seems even more difficult than proving actual damages, and the 
latter seems like it may not even apply or be possible.


What irks me most about these situations as an operator, and indeed 
something that may push back on my previous statement of intent or 
negligence not being possible/applicable, is that the services often 
make their geofencing/IP classification system failures out as being the 
fault of the user's telecommunications service provider when, in fact, 
the user's service provider often has absolutely no direct control over 
what happens and, even where they do have some form of direct control 
such as through a documented operations-appeals channel, are still at 
the mercy of the service doing the fencing/classification to correct the 
error.  At minimum, this could damage customer good will toward their 
service provider.


(And kudos where it's due to the providers who do NOT make such issues 
appear to be the fault of the user's telecommunications service provider 
and instead provide a real, useful means for the user to directly 
contact the content provider to resolve the issue)

--
Brandon Martin


Re: Hulu thinks all my IP addresses are "business class", how to reach them?

2019-11-20 Thread Owen DeLong
>> 
> I suppose a Hulu subscriber could dispute the charge or file a suit (class 
> action?) for damages: "Hulu took my money, but didn't provide the services 
> they advertised." As an ISP, some of us might even be in a position where we 
> encounter losses due to Hulu's (mis)classification resulting in customers 
> moving to the competition; I would think that would be sufficient grounds for 
> a suit.

The problem here is that identifying class members is very hard (most class 
members wouldn’t realize why they were not getting Hulu, and Hulu probably 
either quickly corrects the problem on their end or blames the ISP), meaning 
they wouldn’t realize their ability to join the class.

As an individual customer, Hulu will refund your money and tell you to piss 
off. That’s about all you’re likely to recover in the court case, too.

As an ISP, there might be something there, but, you’d have to prove that you 
had a significant number of customers that left for that specific reason and 
you’d have to show the actual damages that resulted. Easy to estimate, very 
hard to prove.

So in this particular case, I think Hulu is tragically safe from being held 
accountable.

I think the best solution would be something like this…

If congress were to revise the DMCA to provide a provision similar to the 
following:

1.  Digital Rights Management
Content producers and Content owners have the right to enforce their copyright 
through automated means
known as “Digital Rights Management” (DRM).

DRM mechanisms may include, but are not limited to any of the following:
+   IP Address based geographical location inference and content limitations
+   Efforts to avoid delivery of services to users of Virtual Private 
Networks
+   Software locks or limitations preventing playback based on machine 
configuration, software status,
or other variables.
+   Self-destructive content

2.  Duties of Content Producers and Content Owners
Content producers and Content owners must, however, ensure that any form of DRM 
employed in this
process does not in any way curtail the legitimate rights of end users who have 
lawfully purchased,
licensed, or otherwise through fair use or other mechanism obtained legitimate 
rights to the content.

3.  Rights of Consumers
The fair trade commission shall maintain a mechanism for consumers to report 
and document instances
where their content rights have been infringed, abridged, or otherwise hindered 
by DRM. Through this
process, the FTC shall investigate all credible complaints and make a 
determination of fact whether
the consumer’s rights were violated.

In such an instance where the FTC determines consumers rights were violated, 
the Content Owner,
Content Producer, and any Content Providers involved shall be jointly and 
severally liable for the following
damages:
+   Restitution to each affected consumer of the full cost (if any) 
born by the consumer in obtaining the
infringed rights.
+   A DRM free copy of the content in the same format(s) and usable 
with the same playback
mechanism(s) provided to each affected consumer.
+   A fine payable to the united States not to exceed $10,000 per 
incident per affected consumer.
+   Reimbursement to the FTC for all costs of the investigation and 
any process(es) related to
enforcement of any judgment resulting from the investigation.

In the event that a Content Owner, Producer, or Provider wishes to appeal an 
FTC ruling, the appeal
shall be heard in the circuit court of appeals covering the largest fraction of 
the affected consumers known
to be affected at the time of the ruling. While awaiting said hearing, the 
restitution to affected consumers
and DRM free copy shall be provided not less than 60 days after the initial 
ruling.

Owen



Re: Hulu thinks all my IP addresses are "business class", how to reach them?

2019-11-20 Thread Blake Hudson


Owen DeLong wrote on 11/20/2019 11:51 AM:



On Nov 20, 2019, at 07:38 , Tom Beecher > wrote:


Never did figure out if it was stupidity
or malice driving that.


Personally I think it's neither; it's just $.

They could invest in a robust system to accurately identify what they 
chose not to allow to access the service. Or, they can choose to run 
with a 'close enough' system with some legitimate users caught in the 
middle.


They've most likely done the math and decided that the revenue lost 
from people getting caught up in inaccurate blocking is small enough 
that the investment in a more accurate method isn't worth it. This is 
unfortunately the more common decision in this age of worship at the 
Altar of Maximum Shareholder Value.


I think you are exactly right here. It’s yet another example of how 
the incentives around DRM are all messed up and are creating economic 
bias in favor of screwing consumers as much as possible without 
loosing too much revenue.


What is needed is either a more conscientious consumer base that will 
see this and react by voting with their wallets, or, regulation which 
provides more costly penalties for screwing over legitimate consumers.


Owen

I suppose a Hulu subscriber could dispute the charge or file a suit 
(class action?) for damages: "Hulu took my money, but didn't provide the 
services they advertised." As an ISP, some of us might even be in a 
position where we encounter losses due to Hulu's (mis)classification 
resulting in customers moving to the competition; I would think that 
would be sufficient grounds for a suit.


Re: Hulu thinks all my IP addresses are "business class", how to reach them?

2019-11-20 Thread Owen DeLong


> On Nov 20, 2019, at 07:38 , Tom Beecher  wrote:
> 
> Never did figure out if it was stupidity
> or malice driving that.
> 
> Personally I think it's neither; it's just $.  
> 
> They could invest in a robust system to accurately identify what they chose 
> not to allow to access the service. Or, they can choose to run with a 'close 
> enough' system with some legitimate users caught in the middle. 
> 
> They've most likely done the math and decided that the revenue lost from 
> people getting caught up in inaccurate blocking is small enough that the 
> investment in a more accurate method isn't worth it. This is unfortunately 
> the more common decision in this age of worship at the Altar of Maximum 
> Shareholder Value. 

I think you are exactly right here. It’s yet another example of how the 
incentives around DRM are all messed up and are creating economic bias in favor 
of screwing consumers as much as possible without loosing too much revenue.

What is needed is either a more conscientious consumer base that will see this 
and react by voting with their wallets, or, regulation which provides more 
costly penalties for screwing over legitimate consumers.

Owen



Re: Hulu thinks all my IP addresses are "business class", how to reach them?

2019-11-20 Thread Tom Beecher
>
> Never did figure out if it was stupidity
> or malice driving that.
>

Personally I think it's neither; it's just $.

They could invest in a robust system to accurately identify what they chose
not to allow to access the service. Or, they can choose to run with a
'close enough' system with some legitimate users caught in the middle.

They've most likely done the math and decided that the revenue lost from
people getting caught up in inaccurate blocking is small enough that the
investment in a more accurate method isn't worth it. This is unfortunately
the more common decision in this age of worship at the Altar of Maximum
Shareholder Value.

On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 12:20 AM Valdis Klētnieks 
wrote:

> On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 13:39:56 -0500, Tom Beecher said:
>
> > They are essentially equating 'business' with 'VPN provider'.
>
> Not at all surprised.
>
> Many moons ago, I had a Tor *relay* running on one machine in my home
> network,
> and Hulu decided that my connections from a *different* home machine were
> "VPN".  Now, if I were running a Tor *exit* node, I'd be totally OK with
> them
> rejecting my non-Tor connections because they were NATed to the same
> outside IP
> address - but Hulu should never have seen any packets from the relay and
> if I
> *was* using a VPN I'd have a *different* IP address.
>
> Near as I could determine, they were screen scraping the list of Tor relays
> and conflating them with exit nodes. Never did figure out if it was
> stupidity
> or malice driving that.
>


Re: 99% of HK internet traffic goes thru uni being fought over?

2019-11-20 Thread Pierfrancesco Caci
On 19 November 2019 22:43:34 CET, b...@theworld.com wrote:
>
>Is this plausible?
>

Organic manure



-- 
Pierfrancesco Caci